Poison Dagger / Venom combination? [Archive]

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Teragram

17-02-2005, 01:21

Mad Mantis

18-02-2005, 08:44

Question regarding the assassin skill "venom" (recently available to us in form of a 20% chance to cast level 18 venom when struck in the "Dragon" runeword armor)...

Just to inform you, there were already a few items that granted Venom. Although the level on those items wasn't very high.

Venom at level 18: 375-395 damage over 0.4 seconds, with a 188 second duration. (I have no idea what this means)

The 0.4 seconds is the time it takes before the entire amount of 375-395 damage is dealt.
Venom works like Enchant. You cast it and then you get a kind of aura around your feet. The 188 second duration is the time the aura will stay around your feet. during this time, any melee attack made will have the poison damage added to the damage.

How does this all work out?

Read this thread (http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=247769).
From what I can remember Venom reduces the duration of all other poison sources to 0.4 seconds. So your Poison Dagger will add 202-217.96 poison damage to the 375-395 damage from the Venom.

Lunatic

18-02-2005, 13:48

Hi folks-
Pardon me if this has already been addressed--

Question regarding the assassin skill "venom" (recently available to us in form of a 20% chance to cast level 18 venom when struck in the "Dragon" runeword armor)...

Venom at level 18: 375-395 damage over 0.4 seconds, with a 188 second duration. (I have no idea what this means)

Fully synergized Poison Dagger (with no +skills/other sources of poison) at 20: 4860-5231 damage over 9.6 seconds.

How does this all work out? I was reading the 1.09 "Tao of Poison" but became quickly agitated by the continual wisecrackery and not-particularly-succinct writing style. Do these skills at all intertwine?

Would they even do real damage?

Not entirely understanding the underlying concepts under length vs. amount of poison dmg vs. damage per frame(?) relationships... pardon my ignorance!

*Teragram (USEast HCL)

The venom from dragon runeword will cut the 9.6 seonds from poison dagger down to 0.4 seconds (which is 1/24). This means the 4860-5231 dmg over 9.6 sec will be cut to 1/24 of that aswell. This means the poison dagger will do 202.5-217.96 dmg over 0.4 sec. Then you get the 375-395 venom dmg addes.

So in total you'll be doing 577.5-612.96 poison dmg over 0.4 sec. If you calculate it back to the 9.6 seconds again (you need to hit your oponent every 0.4 sec then though) you'll be doing 13860-14711 poison dmg over 9.6 seconds.

As you can see , venom adds quite a chunk of dmg , but the downside is the duration , it's very short , so you need to keep hitting your oponent over and over. You can't poison multiple monsters at the same time , which is the downside to venom.

Just using poison dagger on the other hand you can hit multiple monsters , because the poison needs 9.6 seconds to full do it's dmg. If you hit 3 monsters , you'll be doing more dmg / time then when you're using the venom from dragon.

I myself wouldn't use venom , just because it's drasticly lowering the duration , which makes Pdagger less useless IMHO. Monster flee + Pdagger + multiple monsters make it usefull. :D

Teragram

19-02-2005, 09:23

Ah. Thank you gents.

Happy questing!

JoJeck

20-02-2005, 19:53

Read this thread (http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=247769).
From what I can remember Venom reduces the duration of all other poison sources to 0.4 seconds. So your Poison Dagger will add 202-217.96 poison damage to the 375-395 damage from the Venom.

Please read the whole of this thread MM and you'll see that I refer to some interesting findings by Brianc84 in my last post there ... he found that level 3 Venom from an Arahnid Mesh and the Poinson Dagger skill combines VERY effectively. The Venom skill does reduce the duration of poison from other items and charms to 0.4 secs... BUT it does not affect the Poison Dagger Skill. In fact Venom increases the duration of the PD skill, but only by 0.4 secs, and the damages are added.

As far as I know most of Lunatic's post is based on a false assumption about the way Venom works with PD ...:( I just wish I had my Arachnid Mesh (ladder2) with my Venomancer (ladder1) and I could test this conclusively. Maybe they'll be together soon.

Mad Mantis

20-02-2005, 22:55

Please read the whole of this thread MM and you'll see that I refer to some interesting findings by Brianc84 in my last post there

Yeah, I read your post and the original post by Brianc84. Very interesting indeed. This is certainly worth a bit of testing.

rickcarson

21-02-2005, 21:42

Also, with respect for the enormous amount of work which went into the original Tao of Poison ( :respect: ) from what I can gather from posts in other forums it seems that poison damage in general doesn't work that way anymore.

So until we figure out how it does actually work in 1.10, basing our assumptions on that fine (but now outdated) body of work is likely to lead to false conclusions.

Pherdnut

23-02-2005, 02:44

I was under the impression that Venom negated P-Dagger in the same way that another character attacking with Venom would due to the higher poison per frame.

Venom's damage per frame is so hefty that if its duration added or even averaged with any other sources, I suspect even non skill-based poison builds would become insanely nasty and somebody probably would have figured that out by now. I don't have any items that give you venom as charges or I'd try it myself. Worth experimenting with but I wouldn't get too excited about it. Didn't one of the poison build guys say there was a rumor that venom charged items added synergies to P-Dagger though? I can't imagine why they would.

Have there been any updates to the Tao or more recent docs like it? I've seen people dis it, but they don't seem to interested in explaining how it's wrong.

Mad Mantis

23-02-2005, 09:38

Have there been any updates to the Tao or more recent docs like it? I've seen people dis it, but they don't seem to interested in explaining how it's wrong.

The Tao hasn't been updated in a very long time. I guess that is because poison stacks and adds in some very odd ways. It is easy to see that something poison related doesn't work the way it should, but it is another thing entirely to explain why you get a certain result.

Pherdnut

23-02-2005, 21:29

So, anybody know of items that grant venom somehow that aren't quite as costly or inconvenient as the dragon rune word's "when struck" proc skill? I want to see whether it cuts PDagger's duration or not for myself if no one has actually tried it yet. According to the Tao, the average of other source's duration only adds to PDagger, so maybe we've been overlooking something here if that remains true. Venoms damage rate tacked on to a 10+ second duration would be hideous. Even if it does cut the duration, a daggermancer with a 10FPS attack would get a huge bonus to damage against bosses and single enemies if Venom's damage adds the same way other sources supposedly do or don't, or... whatever. Sigh...

If I can help anybody do some poison testing on US West, let me know. I'd love to help update the Tao.

Mad Mantis

23-02-2005, 23:10

So, anybody know of items that grant venom somehow that aren't quite as costly or inconvenient as the dragon rune word's "when struck" proc skill?

You have Andariel's Visage. That comes equipped with 20 charges of level 3 Venom. There is also Arachnid's Mesh. It comes equipped with 11 charges of level 3 Venom.

Pherdnut

24-02-2005, 04:05

You have Andariel's Visage. That comes equipped with 20 charges of level 3 Venom. There is also Arachnid's Mesh. It comes equipped with 11 charges of level 3 Venom.

Yep. Just took inventory and saw that :)

I guess it's time to finally rush that poisonmancer up to level 83. I'll let you guys know tomorrow or Friday if somebody doesn't beat me to it.