View Full Version : poofing runes, but what about runewords?
hello, i know that duped runes (i.e. almost all of the high runes) are duped and when two copies duped from the same original rune are in the same game, then somehow blizzard knows this and poofs the runes. and i know that "perming" via the trade window before leaving the game is said to somehow be a preventative measure.
but, what i don't know is whether the same is true of runewords. for example, suppose two ists were duped from the same original ist. now, the player who traded for these two ists don't know this so for our hypothetical situation suppose this player then decides to use the ists in runewords for the same char to use. one ist is used to make chains of honor. the other is used to make delirium. both chains of honor and delirium are then put on the same character. is this setup just asking for poofage? when using runewords, is it better to not use runewords on the same character that share a common high rune? (and how exactly does "ruststorm" work? i've never experienced a ruststorm loss as i never had items that were applicable...until recently that is, hence my concern.)
Galavorn
06-02-2005, 18:19
Yes, same thing happens to runewords. The item gets deleted.
I actually believe that the runewords with duped runes does not get deleted. whenever I make high-end runewords I make sure that I have everything else to make the runeword except for that last expensive rune. then, I make a game and trade for the high rune(s) and I make the runeword in that same game so that the runes won't poof when I leave the game. when I made my first fort, the guy I traded my 3 ists for his lo says, "lol its duped" after we traded. he may have been trying to get a rise outa me or something though. n e way I made the runewrod right after we traded in that game and i'v had that fort basically as long as the new rw's have been out.
sangfagel
07-02-2005, 10:03
Rule 5:
"Thou Shalt Not Pimp or aid the Pimping of hacks and Cheats".
IMO discussing ways of permanenting dupes is against this rule. :mad:
gmcbroom
12-02-2005, 17:49
Herr, I don't think you have to worry about the runewords or others going POOF now. My reasoning is that This is the 1.10 patch; I believe it'll be the final one for the game. Don't get me wrong, I have NO evidence that it is ,but ask yourself. Why wait until now to active all these synergizes and also the NEW runewords? Plus with Blizzard devoted to WoW it only makes since that they would save the best changes and additions for LAST. Not to mention BOTD and other runewords with such high runes that they almost have to be duped because of all the people that possess them. Just my 2 cents. Now if I'm wrong i'm wrong but I strongly doubt it.
discussing about duped runes/runewords kinda gets complicated after a while.
sometimes the duped rune stays.. other times it poofs. its sort of random b/c blizz scans cant be 100% accurate from the thousands of players online on different realm.
ones things for sure:
my friend's ber rune in his enigma dusk shroud poof on him so his "Jahithber" became "Jahith"
so runes socketed in runewords can poof if they are duped
hello, i was hoping to let this thread quietly die after sangfagel's objection above. thanks for the additional information, but i think i need to explicitly call for an end to this thread before i (or anyone else posting here) get(s) banned...thanks again, but yeah, as one of my professors has said: "it's time to pack our tents and creep away."
Here is an unimportant opinion,
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we all live and play in a diablo world of dupes, now I am not saying that we need to support the dupers and or the dupes that are there. But I am getting tired of hearing about we shouldn't discuss this and we shouldn't mention that. It is what I said above exactly. Everyone here is guilty of either having a duped item or rune so why not discuss the way to keep what you have. I play for a long time to get a little of nothing and then trade it and get something duped. I think that I deserve the right to ask questions about how to keep what I think might be duped.
I am a little irate at many things going on with this board all the sudden. The trade forums is going down hill rapidly in the way it is taken care of, New rules to benifit certain people not all. Also people being banned for what someone else has done. If you cant prove it then why should you ban someone. I have seen this happen twice now, and the respons to why they were ban is basically guilt by association. Once again like I said above BS,
Hey mods, if you think that I am wrong for voicing my opinion, well ban me, that is about what your site has come too.
First, my stance on the initial question...
I've heard of both runes and runewords disappearing from Battle.net. Of course, I've heard much more about the runes. I personally have several high runewords stretching across a period over a year and have never had a problem with them disappearing. On the other hand, I've received high runes in trade and have had at least 5 disappear into nothingness. Just my personal experience, not gospel by any means.
Second, my stance on the duping issue as it pertains to these forums...
If it becomes known that you dupe: you'll be banned.
If it becomes known that you trade known dupes: you'll be banned.
If it becomes known that you trade high runes: nothing happens.
Yes, high runes are rare, but they're also a large part of this game right now. There aren't many people on the trade forums asking for low-level items anymore. I've found high runes, as have others, and it can be an opportunity to trade for nice gear. There is probably a large percentage of runes in the system now that are not legit, but there is no way to tell if a rune is or isn't a dupe. Just owning or trading these high runes is legal, but if you're nailed distributing a known duped supply, we'll wave goodbye as you leave. Is it a little hypocritical that these forums allow "possibly duped" runes to be traded? I personally think not, as once the possibly part disappears, so do you.
My point is not that I trade duped items or runes, but you can tell me that you have not questioned some of the runes and or items that you have traded for. Did you put your time in to finding legit items, only to be traded for a duped item that dissapeared. Now would it be nice to at least know how to keep that item for a little while at least.
You have traded with me before and with many others on this board. I have also been here for some time now and contributed to the east trade forum as well as helped many people out here. Gave stuff away and put some nubs on the right track. So does that mean that if I trade a high rune that I had trade for earlier and it poofs then I poof. That is plain stupid, but you know what that is the way people are getting treated here, and it is only getting worse.
So with all that confusing everyone, have fun playing the game, cause if you dont want to deal with dupes then you might as well play the game in single player. That is the only way to play without dupes.
Oh btw dont anyone try to say that I am a duper or anything of the sorts, I am just pointing out the things that some people seem to think will go away if they ignor them. Well they wont!!!!!!!
My point is not that I trade duped items or runes, but you can tell me that you have not questioned some of the runes and or items that you have traded for. Did you put your time in to finding legit items, only to be traded for a duped item that dissapeared. Now would it be nice to at least know how to keep that item for a little while at least.
If you trade for anything >gul, there is a big chance that it is a dupe, you should know that and if it goes "poof" the next game, too bad.
It's a chance you take and I for one am glad when they go poof and your Enigma is now worthless.
Lastly, you really have no say in how these forums are run and trying to avoid the profanity filter is pretty childish.
You are correct, what was i thinking, i dont run these forums, but its just plain stupid, that people get banned for talking about something that happens to even some of the mods. So I am just voicing my opinion, I have never had any trouble with the long time people of these forums, until recently, I used to defend the way these place was run and thought it was a great way to do it. Now all the sudden rules start to change, no one gets warned, for the things that used to be a warnable offense, they just get banned. Sometimes they dont even have to do anything, just be associatd with a person and they get banned. So for what it is worth, and it just might be childish, but i still think it is BS. You watch what i am saying and it wont be long before I am banned permently, proly for voicing my opinion and oh yeah oops i by passed the filter. Look back through my post and see how many times that has ever happened. never but this one time.
You are correct, what was i thinking, i dont run these forums, but its just plain stupid, that people get banned for talking about something that happens to even some of the mods. So I am just voicing my opinion, I have never had any trouble with the long time people of these forums, until recently, I used to defend the way these place was run and thought it was a great way to do it. Now all the sudden rules start to change, no one gets warned, for the things that used to be a warnable offense, they just get banned. Sometimes they dont even have to do anything, just be associatd with a person and they get banned. So for what it is worth, and it just might be childish, but i still think it is BS. You watch what i am saying and it wont be long before I am banned permently, proly for voicing my opinion and oh yeah oops i by passed the filter. Look back through my post and see how many times that has ever happened. never but this one time.
Here's what posted at the top of each forum for as long as I can remember.
"Please do not abuse other members in any way. Please do not post links or information about hacking/warez/cheats.
Please read the rules of these forums as we rarely warn before banning."
Each forum mod has a fair amount of discretion, I've done some stupid (not intentional) things that probably should have gotten me banned but Zappafan chastied me and let me stay and I'd like to think I've been a better forum member for it.
The rules are pretty clear and it may be a unfortunate fact of life that some people get banned instead of other more deserving folks but if you continue to poke the tiger with a stick, you will probably get bit. The fact is that numerous people posted that this discussion was inappropriate for this forum and you not only willfully disregarded this, but called BS and attacked the mods (IMO).
If you want to play the martyr, go ahead, but using the defense of "just voicing my opinion" is not a valid one. You could have discussed this via PMs or in any number of other forums.
Just curious, how do you know those are Baal GCs you are trading for?
your right ill just let it die
as far as the baal gcs, i have friends on battle.net that i have check them out before i buy them, so i guess guilt by association. that will proly get me ban too.
By the way, pncwd, I wasn't implying that you trade in duped runes. I was merely stating the approach of the mods on these forums and my post happened to follow yours. I've traded with you plenty and will continue to.
And now back to non-discriminate ranting...
How is keeping the rune you traded for a cheat? I find this discussion teetering on the edge of one of two cases:
1) You cheat and want to find out how to do it better.
2) You're honest and want to find out how to be minimally impacted by cheaters.
From my personally experience, I find pncwd and the person who started this post, herr_s, in the latter.
How is keeping the rune you traded for a cheat? I find this discussion teetering on the edge of one of two cases:
1) You cheat and want to find out how to do it better.
2) You're honest and want to find out how to be minimally impacted by cheaters.
If you are worried about your rune dissapearing, then you must be worried about it being a dupe. If you are truly honest, you wouldn't trade for obvious dupes (spare me the "this Zod could be legit" arguement.) If you are less than completely honest, make the trade and accept the risk. If it goes poof, take it in stride and move on. Trading legit items for an obviously duped rune and then trying to perm it is really no different than buying one on Ebay in my opinion and is clearly cheating.
If you really want to be "minimally impacted by cheaters" then don't trade for runes >Gul.
I guess the HC communtiy is more anti-cheat than SC since cheats have had a much larger negative impact on the HC community.
Tooie, imo ou make no sense at all. Basically, you are asking all of us to stop trading for high runes because theyre probably all duped. What about the fact that about 70% of the guides in these forums implies the use of gazillions of powerful runewords, runewords that of course requires the use of the runes greater than gul. Should you ban every players that has an enigma? I totally agree with pncwd when he says the moderators are way too much aggressive when it comes to ban users. Someone having a different opinion than you doesnt deserves a ban just by not agreeing with you. Seriously, i browse many game forums and its easily the diabloii forums that wins when it comes to the aggressivity of the moderators. I was kind of interested when i saw the topic of this thread. I for sure wanted to know if runewords can disapear. We legit players dont dupe items but at least let us trade for high runes to keep up with the competition. Dupers would of be even more advantaged if us legit players wouldnt want to trade for any duped items. Dupes makes part of the game now, dont tell me you dont have any runeword using gul+. I guess you will say "yes i do but i found all the runes myself and therefore theyre not duped." An high rune may be duped but still we need to trade good items in order to have one. We dont have zod for free dude. I stack gems, rals, trade items for puls, charms, get some ists and then trade for a runeword or an high rune. Wtf is wrong with that, i actually had to pay for the high rune, its not like if i duped the rune and clearly had a free high rune. Thats why we should be able to discuss how not to have our items disapear. Dupers dont care about this because they can fuking just dupe again and again. This thread was meant to us legit players. Ban us if you want, but Blizzard created a game called diablo2 and they created something called a trade window along with it. If we wanted to play legit 100% we would all fall into the borringness of the single player game.
Ha ha ha,,, so much for using legit runes
I found two guls from the hell forge, and cubed up a vex to put on my new hammerdins hoto, well while lvling him to the level in which he could use it, I was in and out of public games. Didn't think much of it since I knew that the only high rune I had was the vex on me,, well guess what,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, pooooooof. talk about dupes poofing, well so do fkn legit ones, so what the hell is the difference. and this just happened today.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Moosashi
15-02-2005, 05:28
Whole items do poof, even if they contain only one probable dupe, in my experience.
Also, I am inclined to think that high runes (> gul) are more common than people realize. I've found Ber, Lo, and Ohm without specifically searching. In 1.1, runes drop more frequently, they can be cubed up to Zod and you're well on your way with a lucky hellforge. Given the importance of runes in the economy (HCL is all I know) I'm sure there are many who run the countess all day and/or have teams that specialize in rushing to hell hellforge. Also Baal and his minions, the monsters murdered most frequently these days, have the best chance to drop the highest runes.
A long time ago, back when I started this game in the early 1.09 days, I read somewhere on this site about one Zod being found per month per realm. This stat has most certainly changed.
Still, you guys are probably largely right. I wouldn't trust most high level runes being traded. But they're not all bad.
If you are worried about your rune dissapearing, then you must be worried about it being a dupe. If you are truly honest, you wouldn't trade for obvious dupes (spare me the "this Zod could be legit" arguement.) If you are less than completely honest, make the trade and accept the risk. If it goes poof, take it in stride and move on. Trading legit items for an obviously duped rune and then trying to perm it is really no different than buying one on Ebay in my opinion and is clearly cheating.
If you really want to be "minimally impacted by cheaters" then don't trade for runes >Gul.
::looks around:: hmm, no bannings... :: packs up tent and returns to the original camp site::
hello tooie1, i believe mentioning the "this zod could be legit" argument is a mere straw man hack job best left to poorly administrated high school debate sessions. if it has to be explicitly said, then let it be said: few seriously believes that argument so few would seriously argue that in their defense when trading for zods, and hence one should not even mention this as an argument to chop down, especially when there are better counterarguments to your points.
without resorting to merely saying the situation as such gives rise to exchange value and consequently relying on the mystical "magic of the marketplace" as a foundation, we may prefer to try to isolate where the value lies.
kanuks has mentioned the labor involved in acquiring the probably duped runes. he challenges your attack on their use by offering a fuller context; he reinserts the missing pieces of the process in acquiring the runes and rightly argues that the duped runes don't appear in the hands of most players out of thin air. now, labor in and of itself does not lead to exchange value. but certainly alienated labor put in to trade off unneeded trade fodder to build up to the high runes should qualify, don't you think? i believe pncwd is making a similar point regarding the value of the labor put into this process. using the labor theory of value, or using some utilitarian theory if you prefer, or just saying what exists is good enough for us to deal with and not delving into it beyond that - any theory you wish to go with - it would appear that you are overlooking what went into the exchange value of the runes. that or you outright believe your moral stance negates this value.
moral philosophy is hard. i am no philosopher by trade, but i have seen some of the arguments in contemporary moral philosophy (up to trying to argue supervenience of moral facts on the entire situation) and i am of the opinion that most of the people who wish to argue from some moral grounds probably don't know how difficult it is to actually attempt to justify the moral quality of those grounds. i shall not deal with that quality, but shall instead deal with some of your statements quoted at the beginning of this post:
"if you are truly honest, you wouldn't trade for obvious dupes" - let's try to apply this test of honesty to other situations outside of diablo. if you take a look at the tags of the clothing you are wearing, you will find that most of your clothes are made by un-unionized workers working in atrocious conditions in some piss poor country out there. these workers are easy to exploit and no one seriously doubts their working conditions are deplorable. (indeed, you will find arguments that even in the best of working conditions the very act of buying your labor is exploitative, but i am not here to argue this latter point.) i will simply say: if you really look at things this black-and-white, then you will probably have to make do without most of the clothes you wear, the food you eat, the diamond jewelry marking your marital status, etc. because you would be guilty through association, as pncwd puts it. there is indeed a difference between perpetrating the crime and having to live in a milieu in which the crime festers, phaeax's point. this in and of itself does not mean the latter has absolutely nothing to do with the former; this merely says the two are (obviously) not equal and it's simply too myopic to believe they are.
"if you are less than completely honest, make the trade and accept the risk. if it goes poof, take it in stride and move on." - here you outline some calculus of "almost"-morality whereby the player who wishes to deal in dupes is given some pragmatic advice on the poop falls of life. in particular, you deal with things probabilistically. indeed, *all* trade itself would be done with this in mind - it's just that items > gul in value have a greater chance of poofing. because dupers can theoretically dupe anything, there is actually some risk involved in trading for anything at all and in principle there is some motivation for duping lower end items since it is much easier to just dupe an el rune rather than finding it if you want it right away. (relatedly, i have heard reports of even um runes being duped not too long ago.) in other words, because of the nature of trading, we cannot rely on some absolute moral grounds to make arguments against (or for) the trading for highly desirable items if we are participating legitimately on our side of the trade process. your statements quoted here imply you either understand the inadequacy of such black-and-white moralizing when it comes to the trade process, or you simply don't trade at all, which is quite possible as i don't know a thing about you outside of your posts in this thread.
"trading legit items for an obviously duped rune and then trying to perm it is really no different than buying one on ebay in my opinion and is clearly cheating." - let me first note that i have never bought a diablo item off ebay. now, you claim buying an item on ebay is clearly cheating. i beg to differ. if you keep in mind the labor required to generate the wealth to purchase a high rune through diablo trades alone, then you also have to factor in the time it takes to do so. the argument argues itself here and i'm sure you can fill in the blank. however, you probably have in mind dupers and botters who are the main sellers of diablo items on ebay. ebay is a tool for sellers and ebay in and of itself does not lend itself to being a tool *only* for dupers and botters. your argument here yet again inserts an element of uncertainty while your rhetoric does not admit such laxity. if you are willing to involve a slight bit of nuance here, then you will easily see what most of the posters here are trying to argue.
i am young and foolish, so sometimes i am unable to distinguish when a debate continues because there are legitimate points left to be made and when a debate continues because all parties involved are afraid of being wrong. believe it or not, i have seriously taken your arguments into consideration and i hope you do the same in reciprocity. indeed, prior to receiving some runewords lately as a result of giveaways on these forums (and which prompted this thread in the first place), i've never even traded for these runes and actually cubed my way up to a couple of ohm's in the attempt to make it all the way up to jah and ber for enigma. (life got in the way and my accounts expired before i made it.) however, back then as well as today, i do not condemn others on moral grounds for such activities because i find it an almost intractable proposition to begin with. i believe some famous martyr had some words to say on this subject.
{long post which attempted to rationalize cheating snipped}
Different strokes for different folks, I consider it cheating.
I've found Ohm, Lo, etc. and I am well aware of people doing numerous hell forge rushes to cube up. Heck, I even cubed my own Vex for my first HoTO.
As for "we have to cheat to keep up" arguement, I assume you are referring to dueling because if you require Engima and BoTD for PVM, you really shouldn't be playing this game. Even for PvP, it's still cheating, no matter how you attempt to rationalize it. But the guide told me I HAD to use a BOTD! What a joke, there are many legit HC duelers who routinely beat the cheaters.
If you wanted to play 100% legit, you wouldn't cheat, it is really as simple as that. I'm not condemning you all for cheating, I've even tried out Maphack, just recognize the behavior for what it is, it's only a game.
Different strokes for different folks, I consider it cheating.
I've found Ohm, Lo, etc. and I am well aware of people doing numerous hell forge rushes to cube up. Heck, I even cubed my own Vex for my first HoTO.
As for "we have to cheat to keep up" arguement, I assume you are referring to dueling because if you require Engima and BoTD for PVM, you really shouldn't be playing this game. Even for PvP, it's still cheating, no matter how you attempt to rationalize it. But the guide told me I HAD to use a BOTD! What a joke, there are many legit HC duelers who routinely beat the cheaters.
If you wanted to play 100% legit, you wouldn't cheat, it is really as simple as that. I'm not condemning you all for cheating, I've even tried out Maphack, just recognize the behavior for what it is, it's only a game.
um, first note that in my "long post which attempted to rationalize cheating" the "we have to cheat to keep up" argument was not even argued. apparently your response to the arguments so far is the very substantive "different strokes for different folks, i consider it cheating" and then proceeding to chop down yet another straw man conveniently put up by another poster. as i've said before, when debating, try not to just cut down counterarguments that are easily shot down. that would only weaken one's position. not too long ago, i engaged in a debate with a classmate on some epistemological concerns and he responded with "i'm right, you're wrong" to put an abrupt end to the exchange without really answering my last batch of points. he simply re-asserted the correctness of his stance. i believe your response has this same flavor.
you write "if you wanted to play 100% legit, you wouldn't cheat, it is really as simple as that." how would you know if anything you trade for is legit beyond the certainty of doubt, the 100%? indeed, this 100% you invoke is the main problem with your arguments. i've addressed this in different ways in my previous post, but i guess you didn't pick up on it. (note that pncwd has his friend check out dubious items with probably maphack or some tool because though he is a legit player, he would like to obviate the uncertainty in trading by associating with the third party program users. there are other "in-between" cases between outright being a duper/hacker/etc. and staying in single player to avoid all such concerns, as kanuks mentioned. you seem to have found a comfortable niche somewhere in the middle, i.e. trading only for items less than or equal to gul in value, from which you start dishing out arguments grounded on absolutes. empirically, even items below gul have been known to be duped. i believe it was a post by "funkyg13" that reported a poofing um rune if you care to search for it. it's only a matter of time before the dupers get to the point of duping ral runes as the crafting of "godly" ammies becomes more and more popular. if you wish to stand on absolutes, then you should be arguing away the trade system altogether.)
and finally you admit you've used maphack before. lol. ok, i think i'll stop here. lol. i'll let you have the last word; i think i've already made my points in these two posts and there's no reason for me to carry on further.
(oh by the way, i thought it was a typo at first, but it seems you use "arguement" with the extra "e" as opposed to "argument." it's spelled without the extra "e." just letting you know for your future purposes, not to be hostile nor to attack your intelligence.)
{Deleted post}
Wow, you really take this seriously don't you?
Well, good luck to you and thanks for the help on "arguement."
Rangniheldr
15-02-2005, 18:14
um, first note that in my "long post which attempted to rationalize cheating" the "we have to cheat to keep up" argument was not even argued. apparently your response to the arguments so far is the very substantive "different strokes for different folks, i consider it cheating" and then proceeding to chop down yet another straw man conveniently put up by another poster. as i've said before, when debating, try not to just cut down counterarguments that are easily shot down. that would only weaken one's position. not too long ago, i engaged in a debate with a classmate on some epistemological concerns and he responded with "i'm right, you're wrong" to put an abrupt end to the exchange without really answering my last batch of points. he simply re-asserted the correctness of his stance. i believe your response has this same flavor.
you write "if you wanted to play 100% legit, you wouldn't cheat, it is really as simple as that." how would you know if anything you trade for is legit beyond the certainty of doubt, the 100%? indeed, this 100% you invoke is the main problem with your arguments. i've addressed this in different ways in my previous post, but i guess you didn't pick up on it. (note that pncwd has his friend check out dubious items with probably maphack or some tool because though he is a legit player, he would like to obviate the uncertainty in trading by associating with the third party program users. there are other "in-between" cases between outright being a duper/hacker/etc. and staying in single player to avoid all such concerns, as kanuks mentioned. you seem to have found a comfortable niche somewhere in the middle, i.e. trading only for items less than or equal to gul in value, from which you start dishing out arguments grounded on absolutes. empirically, even items below gul have been known to be duped. i believe it was a post by "funkyg13" that reported a poofing um rune if you care to search for it. it's only a matter of time before the dupers get to the point of duping ral runes as the crafting of "godly" ammies becomes more and more popular. if you wish to stand on absolutes, then you should be arguing away the trade system altogether.)
and finally you admit you've used maphack before. lol. ok, i think i'll stop here. lol. i'll let you have the last word; i think i've already made my points in these two posts and there's no reason for me to carry on further.
(oh by the way, i thought it was a typo at first, but it seems you use "arguement" with the extra "e" as opposed to "argument." it's spelled without the extra "e." just letting you know for your future purposes, not to be hostile nor to attack your intelligence.)
Honestly tooie i dont see what you are getting at, you say you use maphack and then accuse him because he traded for a highrune he didnt know was duped? Did u activate the retardism aura or something?
Honestly tooie i dont see what you are getting at, you say you use maphack and then accuse him because he traded for a highrune he didnt know was duped? Did u activate the retardism aura or something?
Yes, level 31 Retardism due to my duped Engima, HOTO, and SOJs :)
Reread my post about MH. I never said I was pure, I just get a kick out of people who trade for obviously duped items and then try to claim that they are legit.
So I used MH (woot, I'm a cheater! call my parents!) for a bit and I'm evil but people who don't think buying items off Ebay is cheating get a free ride, looks like it's time to go back to the HC forum. I'm sure ya'll will miss me.
Wow, you really take this seriously don't you?
Yes, some of us find the cheating and internet mentality of this issue to extend beyond the pixels eminating from your monitor.
I won't even debate the MapHack issue... there will be plenty of others to beat that horse if I need them.
It's awfully smug and easy to patrol the forums and call everyone a cheater. It's much harder to follow the path yourself, or even yet lead those upon the path. I didn't see anyone here say that they traded for high runes or runewords because they needed them.
I personally have them because I had access to them. Initially upon entering the realms in October 2003, I'll fully admit, I had access via eBay. I purchased the runes to make a Famine axe and a Chains of Honor to both keep my ill-designed character alive and to explore parts of an entertaining game that I would otherwise not have access to. For around $15, less than the price of two movies, I gleaned many more hours of entertainment. I'm not trying to justify anything; I'm just stating why I did it at the time.
Currently, with my extra money, I've been donating it to this site here. Why? Because they actively promote legitimate play. They're walking the path that so many others just point to. I've tried to reform my ways myself and have found a different form of enjoyment in this game.
There are many here who look to explore new areas of the game, including things such as character builds and runewords. They've played according to the rules presented them and although may have found myriads of decent items, nothing that presents them the opportunity to try that one thing within the rules of the game that eludes them. Luckily, by playing the game online, they are part of a community where trading is possible, where groups of people can trade with each other to mutually attain their own goals.
Unfortunately, a large percentage of that online community is dishonest. They take the most valuable and necessary parts of these enjoyable builds and items and make them illegitimate. This presents the dilemma: trade for this illicit items and foster the dupers, or remain secluded from the trading and community that promote the enjoyment of the game.
Once again, I'm not justifying either road, or saying that either is the right path. It's a very difficult decision to make, but threats and name calling won't persuade anyone to see your personal point of view. In one case, maybe you could talk about how to still build effective and entertaining characters without having to trade for these items. In the other, maybe mention that trading on a forum that is strictly anti-cheat, you are assuming the best in the people you trade with.
I know this sounds idealistic, but it's funny... I kind of like living up to my ideals.
Moosashi
16-02-2005, 03:16
One could say the ultimate allure of online multiplayer games, DiabloII in particular, is the absence of any solid morality. If people wanted their entertainment to follow the rules of real life, they wouldn't play. People know its fake and people know there are no real consequences except perhaps the loss of time they were willing to throw away on a computer game anyway. We play to break the rules of life; it's no wonder there's a gray area.
Pherdnut
16-02-2005, 22:16
Eh well, anyway. Going back to the original source of conflict, I'd say talking about how to dupe is one thing. Talking about how to deal with potential dupes when trading is another. As for the rest of it, you guys would probably argue less if you actually read each other's arguments.
Emerald Dragon
17-02-2005, 06:41
Man, there are a lot of long-winded posts in this thread.
So here comes mine!! :D
It is a sad fact, but cheaters abound in d2. It seems there is a stubborn minority of jerks that feel they must keep finding ways to defy blizzard.
I think blizzard is doing a great job with 1.10.
You see any occy rings, or other past scam epidemics that prompted blizz to release a patch around here?
There is so much finger pointing going around. Most people are cautious about runes higher than gul, because gul is the best rune you can get from hellforge, and has a 1/11 chance of dropping. All others must be found the hard way.
Now, since a gull has a 1/11 chance of dropping in hell hellforge, it prompted someone to sniff out flaws in the game desgin and discover the lame art of self rushing. I'm not talking about killing most of the enemies with a strong char to pave the way for your weak one. I'm talking about people who use multiple computers with multiple cd keys running multiple D2's at once. It can be done, and sadly, it is done, a lot. I dont know the secret to it, and I dont want to know it either.
So some dude spends about 2-3 hours rushing his mules to hell, then takes each one to do its forge. Gets lucky and each mule gets a gul. Wham, 7 guls right there, legit, but obtained through unsavory means. He cubes them. Gets 3 vex. Cubes the vex, and is left with a Ohm, vex and gul.
See what I mean?
Now today, I was bored, and saw a game called "Jessi hates me". Just for fun, i join the game and say "Yes, the truth hurts.....jessi does hate you". He laughs, I laugh. He goes off somewhere using the wp, so i go to stony field to get the leg for cows.
Some dude joins as I get the leg. The 2 guys start dueling each other. I make cows and go inside. Just a typical, nothing out of the ordinary game.
5th cow I kill drops a Lo. At first my brain didnt even register what just happened. Then I started freaking out. Before that game, the Highest rune I had ever owned was Gul. I had a Gul once. The runes I was able to get by pit running/gambling/crafting was about um and down. So here I was, now with a Lo. If I get lucky and get a gul from my necro mule(Who is in hell but hasnt done his forge yet), I can cube those guls and make a vex. And then I can make a fort.
There you have it. I didnt use any dupes, I did not trade for anything. I just joined a regular game for fun, and did a hell cow run (Which I have done numerous times for exp,looking for flawless, looking for jewels for crafting or lvling friends). I just got frigging lucky this time. Do I ever expect to find a Lo from a hell bovine again? No.
So, that stroke of luck catapulted me into a world of options, as opposed to before, when I had a gul. And I am just one person. How many thousands play D2 every day?
People are weary of runes over gul because after gul, there is no surefire way to get one. If you really really needed a gul, hellforge is the best option. If you really really needed a vex, your best option is cubing 2 guls.
Most people see gul as the end of the road in trustworthy runes. I consider Vex to be the end of the road, since there are concrete ways of getting guls to cube. Anything past vex, you have to find, and dont count on it any time soon.
Some people have been playing for years and the best rune they have found not counting forge drops, is ist or vex.
Here I have been playing for about 5 months and I found a Lo. The second Highest rune I have found not counting forge drops is a ko.
See what I'm saying?
Pherdnut
17-02-2005, 17:28
So... it's good or bad that by self-rushing mules people make it so that Vex and Gul are more dependably nonduped?
So... it's good or bad that by self-rushing mules people make it so that Vex and Gul are more dependably nonduped?
pherdnut, i believe emerald dragon is giving a variation of the argument that high runes are meant to be rare, so by self-rushing for forge drops you are breaking the rarity of these runes. by offering the example of his lo cow drop, dragon is implying that these runes could be obtained by luck alone and that's how the game should function: just let luck do its thing, it will happen for you too. in short, not only are dupes bad, but exploiting ways to get around the rarity factor is also bad. emerald dragon is taking a stricter position than tooie in claiming legitimacy. at least this is how i read it.
emerald dragon is also arguing that gul is the end of the line of trustworthy runes because it's the cap of hell forge drops. of course this assumes the dupers abide by some rule to not dupe runes acquirable via the forge. it makes more sense to me that the dupers would dupe whatever is popular in trade at the moment since it costs them nothing to dupe, and not abide by any such artificial conventions built into the game.
in any case, this thread has already degenerated quite significantly. perhaps we should all agree to put an end to it soon and let it drop off the front page of the statistics forum? it feels like this thread won't die a welcomed death unless someone explicitly calls for it...again...
Shlongor
14-03-2005, 06:07
...being so devilishly obsessed with my awesomeness, I smuggled the duped Zod runes in several six socketed "mule" items.
That said... once socketed, the rune is undetectable. Anyone else remember Ith items? That was the result of unsocketing runes. :P
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