View Full Version : Who's better, ww-sin or ww-barb, and why?
semisonic9
05-02-2005, 12:17
Hey, I've heard ww-sins only lose to ww-barbs, so does that mean ww-barbs are better?
What class do they have trouble with, and what are the relative costs? Which do you like better?
Garbad_the_Weak
05-02-2005, 17:42
Every dueling class wins 90% of its duels. Just read the guides, each one says it owns all other classes. Just like how every dueler wins at least 75% and can easily clear public games 7v1.
Barb > Sin
Life, dmg, defense, speed > uh, venom?
WW sins are highly overrated
Garbad
aznbboi16
05-02-2005, 19:24
WWsins aren't highly overrated, they just can't beat barbs. They both use the same skill, but barbs have a lot more life, defense (the biggest advantage), AR and physical dmg.
Sins on the other hand have venom, ow and dual wield with the ability to block. WWsins don't have the best AR though and lack defense, so while the barb will almost always hit, the wwsin will have trouble in that area.
On top of that, wwbarbs are hard to traplock and the wwsin loses one of her biggest advantages. Most other classes shouldn't be too hard if you play her well. Casters with bad hit recovery you can traplock and short whirl to death.
Bad matchups for wwsins in my opinion are high defense, uninterruptible melee like barbs and zealots. The rest you should have a decent chance against.
'22'Souljah
05-02-2005, 20:34
WWsins aren't highly overrated, they just can't beat barbs. They both use the same skill, but barbs have a lot more life, defense (the biggest advantage), AR and physical dmg.
Sins on the other hand have venom, ow and dual wield with the ability to block. WWsins don't have the best AR though and lack defense, so while the barb will almost always hit, the wwsin will have trouble in that area.
On top of that, wwbarbs are hard to traplock and the wwsin loses one of her biggest advantages. Most other classes shouldn't be too hard if you play her well. Casters with bad hit recovery you can traplock and short whirl to death.
Bad matchups for wwsins in my opinion are high defense, uninterruptible melee like barbs and zealots. The rest you should have a decent chance against.
why do people always mention OW like it's an advantage for a ww sin when comparing ww barbs and ww sins, barbs have it too
TheGreatDivorce
05-02-2005, 20:45
WW Barbs > WW Sins.
aznbboi16
05-02-2005, 21:54
why do people always mention OW like it's an advantage for a ww sin when comparing ww barbs and ww sins, barbs have it too
Because wwsins tend to focus more on ow, rely on it and have quite a bit more than your average bvall barb. My barb only has ow from gore riders (10%). If having more %ow than a barb is not an advantage, then I dunno what you're smoking.
Also the massive amount of OW means the sin can play much differently. They get ow hits much more often and can therefore do hit and runs with more success. Get OW on your opponent and trap lock them if they are too dangerous to melee. You can't just play a wwsin like a wwbarb, they are just not the same type of characters.
My barb usually has 60% OW: 25%dracs, 25%beast, 10%gores.
Where's the wwin's OW advantage again?
WWsins have the advantage in:
venom
2 means of teleporting (df allows you to tele+ww without namelocking sometimes although regualr tele is usually better in most cases)
mb/traps = stunlocking
minion = minion stacking
clawblock
barbs have:
massive life
massive physical dmg
high ar
high defense
better fcr breakpoints
better secondary attacks (beserk, conc, frenzy)
faster r/w (wwsins almost always use fade, except maybe vs necros)
leap (not as good as mb but it works)
Both do very well vs any class, except wwsins have 1 crucial weakness, they cannot beat a ww barb.
Also to make a good anticaster wwsin or one to duel any class, the gear is far more expensive than that of a barb.
Barbs typically use:
botd/beast zerkers
arreats
ss
verdungos/arch
highlords
gores/resist boots
2xravens/caster rings
dracs/rends
charms: mostly 32020s, some 20/5s; 5resistall/5fhr; anni
on the other hand a "ghost" sin needs:
08 valk
maras/fcr ammy/ east dupe ammy (costs around 6-8 HR's)
trangs
arch
engima
2x ravens
resist all boots
chaos with +skills/ fury with + skills (good ones go for at least 6HR's each)
charms: shadow gcs with life, 32020s and/or 20/5's; anni
Ok looking at the gear, its obvious that a well equipped ghost is far more expensive than a well equiped barb. The 08 valk alone is worth as much if not more than all the barbs gear (unless they go for perfect botd/beast, etc).
So while both builds are very good all around, a wwsin can't beat a ww barb, while both can beat any other class. However, gearwise, the barb is much more friendly, costing at least 1/3 of a ghostsin.
I've tried both, and to sum it all up, my sin is striped and i still play my barb. (i hate dying other barbs)
aznbboi16
05-02-2005, 22:50
I'm talking about an axe/shield barb. But even a dual wielding ebotd/beast barb has less OW than a wwsin.
WWsin has 25 Chaos + 10 Gores + 25 Dracs = 60% AND 66 + 10 + 25 = 101% on the other hand. BOTH weapons have a very high %ow.
If I am not mistaken, this is an advantage (60 = 60, 101 > 0), yes?
barb can use fury as well or duress.
anyways barbs physical dmg makes up for the ow.
thing about it this way, a barb can kill sorcs/necs in 1-2 ww's easily.
wwsin cant unless they are dueling some crap caster with no psn resist/low life.
Also the best kind of wwsin i've seen and tried is a ghost.
Ghosts dont use dracs nor gores (and without resist boots u cannot get max resist easily).
Bramble build are weak imo, alot less mobile.
Also I'd use trangs over dracs for the psn dmg and fcr is necessary for mb to work effciently.
Phyrexial
06-02-2005, 04:00
In my opinion, WW sins will kill casters in general better than the BvC barb but the BvC barb is the better overall dueler. The main advantages the sin has are
- The minion stacking which renders long range bs/ibs far less dangerous.
- MB/trap lock, even more dangerous when the Shadow can MB from far offscreen (like 2 screen radius)
- I already did the math for claw block vs high hp and I believe on average the claw block comes out marginally on top.
I haven't met a BvC barb that can kill my necro consistently, but I've met 2 sins that can. Hence my current conclusion. When the west BvC barbs come back from their respective vacations, I look forward to dueling them. In general though, BvC barbs are the better all rounder because they aren't really hosed by any class except BvB barbs.
Phryexial ill give u some accts of barbs that are better at necros than me.
Right now i know two of them off the bat:
*eap_clan (eap_theww)
*pupil (NuB-Babo)
duel them, eap is online rite now.
Both are much better than me vs necs, but much worse vs other classes (cept eap is bvb so he beats me 50% of the time).
barbs, what are you kids smoking
a wwsin is a crappy barb with poison
'22'Souljah
06-02-2005, 09:22
barbs, what are you kids smoking
a wwsin is a crappy barb with poison
that can also block spells and immobilize things
WW Barb is stronger, but there's no such thing as 100% wins in this matchup, so lets not say things like "blah blah blah you must be fighting weak **** noobs" etc
WW Barb wins; don't be a sore winner. There's always a good reason why people choose wwsin over ww barb and vice versa.
GhOsTofKoDa
06-02-2005, 11:04
I just dueled SoulessChild on open b.net, my ww sin vs. his necro.
The best west barbs go about even with him, the score was 17-9 me.
WW barb is still better than WW sin?
GhOsTofKoDa
06-02-2005, 11:06
Phryexial ill give u some accts of barbs that are better at necros than me.
Right now i know two of them off the bat:
*eap_clan (eap_theww)
*pupil (NuB-Babo)
duel them, eap is online rite now.
Both are much better than me vs necs, but much worse vs other classes (cept eap is bvb so he beats me 50% of the time).
Luis, Eap barb is a known autoaimer who doesn't even deny it anymore, and NuB-BaBo is a scrolling barb, who only on rare occasions GM's.
Please don't ruin the names of good legit barbs by calling these 2 clowns skilled.
AndyChrono
06-02-2005, 21:57
I just dueled SoulessChild on open b.net, my ww sin vs. his necro.
The best west barbs go about even with him, the score was 17-9 me.
WW barb is still better than WW sin?
Actually koda, the necro that west barbs go 50% with is EternalSpirit if I remember that whole argument over anti-caster's correctly. Soulless hasn't even played his necro much the last few months as he made some other PvP char, don't remember what it was though. Ultimately you won about 65% of the duels against an out-of-practice necro while west barbs go 50% against arguably the best necro on west. Not much to brag about honestly.
Phyrexial
06-02-2005, 22:49
Phryexial ill give u some accts of barbs that are better at necros than me.
Right now i know two of them off the bat:
*eap_clan (eap_theww)
*pupil (NuB-Babo)
duel them, eap is online rite now.
Both are much better than me vs necs, but much worse vs other classes (cept eap is bvb so he beats me 50% of the time).
I haven't been on bnet for about a month or so, but I've heard my fair share about both of those. Particularly eap. From what I've heard, AA, Scroll, Rejuv, Sanc, Lifetap, monster leach, etc is all fair game to them. They don't even have the common decency to fight to the end, they run to town. I don't want to cast judgement by association either, but I've had plenty of run ins with the NuB clan and they've been nothing but ebayed, hacked, BMers of the worst kind.
Of course, if this is not the case I'll gladly try to find them for a friendly duel.
Yes i know eap aa's occassionally, but I know him so i asked him to gm vs you.
He told me other other person was also good vs necr, have no idea who he is.
IMO, wwsin is better vs necro because of mb+traps+minion.
Also they make druids alot quicker to kill since they make summons pointless and druid have bad fhr.
However, I've found vs a really good sorc, a barb is much much better since its still a 1(good ww)-2 ww kill, while for a wwsin, it requires many attempts at stunlock and usually multiple ww's. Also vs any class of pally cept foh, barbs are more effective. And lets not forget a wwsin's one crucial weakness.
Also another point no one seems to notice is that a good anticaster wwsin (aka Ghost) costs ALOT more than a ww barb (unless the barb goes for all perfect gear, but if the wwsin did the same, ghost would still be slightly more expensive).
GhOsTofKoDa
07-02-2005, 04:55
Actually koda, the necro that west barbs go 50% with is EternalSpirit if I remember that whole argument over anti-caster's correctly. Soulless hasn't even played his necro much the last few months as he made some other PvP char, don't remember what it was though. Ultimately you won about 65% of the duels against an out-of-practice necro while west barbs go 50% against arguably the best necro on west. Not much to brag about honestly.
::oops read below::
17-9 is almost 2:1 while barbs go 1:1, he told me himselph neither mcm nor blobs have ever beat him in a series.
Also Luis, ww barbs own alot of sorcs but ww sins main speciality is sorcs, any skilled ghost ww sin should never lose a set with any sorc, and in most cases should be able to win gm 2v1 against most godly sorcs
::EDIT:: DISREGARD my posts above, I had dueled EternalSpirit not soulless child, I had mistakenly thought they were the same person.
The necro I dueled on open was EternalSpirit lol.
AndyChrono
07-02-2005, 05:12
EternalSpirit = Souless Child
17-9 is almost 2:1 while barbs go 1:1, he told me himselph neither mcm nor blobs have ever beat him in a series.
Also Luis, ww barbs own alot of sorcs but ww sins main speciality is sorcs, any skilled ghost ww sin should never lose a set with any sorc, and in most cases should be able to win gm 2v1 against most godly sorcs
Actually no. My friend has dueled them both and they are two different people. He won about half against soulless while winning about a third against eternal spirit. In fact in Souless' PvP Bonemancer guide he even lists Eternal in the credits which I think would make it pretty obvious they were two different people.
GhOsTofKoDa
07-02-2005, 05:15
Yes I made a booboo, I had dueled Eternal on open last night, not souless.
Sorry! ><
'22'Souljah
07-02-2005, 05:56
Yes I made a booboo, I had dueled Eternal on open last night, not souless.
Sorry! ><
they decided to stop banning you? ^_^
GhOsTofKoDa
07-02-2005, 06:30
they will ban me soon i think.
BTW mcm thinks I'm an autoaimer now becuase I held MB namelock on his friend, where he got bounced out of mb range but within namelock range, when he walked towards me again i still had mb held down and he got bounced back out of mb range lol.
Seeing as you've started bragging already lets point out a few things about those duels with EternalSpirit shall we?
- You hosted through East Open BNet. I'm surprised Steven continued playing w/ crap lag (which was pretty obvious, given that my dialup was reading 600ms and its normally in the 200 range.)
- You two havn't dueled in west yet, so you're bragging about your side of the equation only. Good job.. I guess. You have to do better than lose 17-9 on a game hosted by steven to win the aggregate.
- You had a 388% ED chaos claw. Argue all you want about it "not being much more" but I doubt your necro friends will like it very much if I turn up with a 465% ED EBOTD or a 65% superior Grief... Yet again, Steven continued dueling you and didn't complain once. Actually I complained WAY more than he did and I wasn't even dueling.
- As far as "out of practice" or whatever goes, Steven has been at school for a couple months and away from D2. Read into that whatever you like.
And lastly, I don't think you autoaimed, as we discussed. Did you forget?
GhOsTofKoDa
07-02-2005, 07:12
I posted that before you finally let me show u what I did.
You woulden't even join my game at first so i could prove to you I wasn't aa'ing.
You just responded "Nty I don't want to get aa'd"
and phyrexial the person who made my character did make my chaos claw wrong, he had given it 388% ed instead of 338%, then % it was.
I just had this fixed and tested the damage difference between the two.
the difference was a 128 physical damage increase, which is about 20 damage after pvp and the 8 dr eternal had.
An extra 20 pvp dmg each time chaos claw hit, but that really didn't matter considering i never broke his bone armor anyways =\
Yes I am still waiting to duel him with a west host/him hosting.
'22'Souljah
07-02-2005, 07:29
I posted that before you finally let me show u what I did.
You woulden't even join my game at first so i could prove to you I wasn't aa'ing.
You just responded "Nty I don't want to get aa'd"
and phyrexial the person who made my character did make my chaos claw wrong, he had given it 388% ed instead of 338%, then % it was.
I just had this fixed and tested the damage difference between the two.
the difference was a 128 physical damage increase, which is about 20 damage after pvp and the 8 dr eternal had.
An extra 20 pvp dmg each time chaos claw hit, but that really didn't matter considering i never broke his bone armor anyways =\
Yes I am still waiting to duel him with a west host/him hosting.
can i watch when it's on west?
semisonic9
07-02-2005, 07:51
Yeah, actually, as the OP I'd like to see the duels too, I can always make a char if they're on another realm or on open. Lemme know when some of this is gonna go down, plz.
I would think wws would have a hard time with necros...the %DR doesn't apply to magic, does it. Also, the SM is only one minion......another would be better...
doesnt it lag it on open if theres a ton of people in the game?
and koda dont you use hacked life/mana gcs or scs or whatever it is on east?
niether mcm nor blobs but he didnt mention mhmh?
mhmh went 20-0 with him i beleive.
not to mention that he uses dial up. what does that tell you?
niether mcm nor blobs but he didnt mention mhmh?
mhmh went 20-0 with him i beleive.
not to mention that he uses dial up. what does that tell you?
I hope you're not being suckered into another one of chris' "stories"...
no, rickies and james' stories :)
fact is koda claimed that ghosts sins were supposedly the best build ever which everyone other s than him and mooker, knows is untrue :P
wwsins have an adavatage against every class cept barbs
barbs have an adatantage against all classes, period.
i really dont know why these debates still exsist >_<
also i am not biased towards barbs since i do have a ghost sin myself. (actually hes a bramble sin but i ahve ghost gear in stash.. if i had exactly same gear as koda i would have round 200-250 less life than him since i invested like 30 into strength.)
mcm, chris hardly brags about beating steve or anyone unless he wants to piss the guy off, i usually see other people in pubs and priv games brag for him.
GhOsTofKoDa
08-02-2005, 08:22
doesnt it lag it on open if theres a ton of people in the game?
and koda dont you use hacked life/mana gcs or scs or whatever it is on east?
I didnt use any 15 life 70 mana sc's for the duels.
Instead I used 9x 20/17's. I had about 200 less mana but I had more life so its a win/win situation vs. necros.
mhmh went 20-0 against who?
and Dkay, I never said Ghost ww sins were the best build of all time, I just said that they were better caster killers than ww barbs.
mcm claimed if I beat eternal with a ratio better than 50:50 then he would believe me.
I won at 17-9, but apparently eternal was lagging so I am awaiting to duel him with a west host.
haha my apologies for the misunderstanding of what you said.
everyone makes mistakes some times~~~
morotsjos
09-02-2005, 20:13
mhmh went 20-0 with him i beleive.
not to mention that he uses dial up.
I hope you're not being suckered into another one of chris' "stories"...
Mhmh did indeed say just that, but he was referring to his druid (it was in a druid-vs-nec-thread).
I couldn't help but commenting on this... =)
im better
no im better
no my class is better
no my build is better
u cheat
no i dont
yes u do
oh no u dont
u suck
no u suck
no my class is better
etc.
etc.
and if you're not done yet, etc.
_____________________________
What does the above tell you? The above tells you that this is a pointles argument, that is of no real interest to anyone except for some 15 year olds. Theres just some yelling about of "i pwn you, you pwn me, and he pwns us all three".
Every class shines in a different situation. case closed.
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