View Full Version : Summoner weapons conundrum or "Is Beast really the be(a)st?"
Liessa Wyrmbane
04-02-2005, 11:26
Hi, all.
I'm building a pure Summoner for the first time in ladder2. Because this is probably my last character this season, I want to build him as good as I can. I have done some serious trading and I finally managed to acquire both Beast and Enigma (both are my first ones ever).
But as I studied the various guides and reports I begun to think if the Beast rune word was the best way to go after all?
Some cons:
1) some reports say that the EIAS from Fanatism doesn't work with skellies at all or that it's effect is unnoticable.
2) it's range is very low.
3) it's damage is not that good (do skellies get the party damage or the full damage?)
4) no other mods beneficial to a pure summoner (no +skills, no fcr for teleport etc)
Another way to boost your skellies would be the use of level 16 Heart of Wolverine from Oath rune word. It gives 125%ed, +130%ar and it has a very good radius. If you use a Wisp Projector ring as well, the HoW won't disappear when you weapon switch.
Then there's Arm of King Leoric and Call to Arms to consider too... *sigh* :(
Basically I'm looking for an aswer to the question: what is the best choice of weapons from the combos below for a pure Summoner?
1) Beast + Arm of King Leoric
• Summon the skellies with AoKL for extra thoughness and then switch to Beast
2) Beast + Call to Arms
• Use primarely Beast and use CtA for BO
3) Beast + Oath
• Use Oath to summon the lvl 16 HoW and then switch to Beast
4) Arm of King Leoric + Call to Arms
• Summon the skellies with AoKL and use CtA for BO
5) Arm of King Leoric + Oath
• Summon the skellies with AoKL and use Oath for HoW
Maybe I could precast the HoW in town and then put it on stash and replace it with CtA/AoKL/Beast. Anyway, I'm completely at loss as what is the best course of action... :(
Let me know what you guys think is the best way to go from your experience or maybe there's even some better combination that I've overlooked. Hopefully this question haven't been answered too many times already. I did read the guides before posting.
Regards,
Liessa
Another way to boost your skellies would be the use of level 16 Heart of Wolverine from Oath rune word. It gives 125%ed, +130%ar and it has a very good radius. If you use a Wisp Projector ring as well, the HoW won't disappear when you weapon switch.
Then there's Arm of King Leoric and Call to Arms to consider too... *sigh* :(
Basically I'm looking for an aswer to the question: what is the best choice of weapons from the combos below for a pure Summoner?
1) Beast + Arm of King Leoric
• Summon the skellies with AoKL for extra thoughness and then switch to Beast
2) Beast + Call to Arms
• Use primarely Beast and use CtA for BO
3) Beast + Oath
• Use Oath to summon the lvl 16 HoW and then switch to Beast
4) Arm of King Leoric + Call to Arms
• Summon the skellies with AoKL and use CtA for BO
5) Arm of King Leoric + Oath
• Summon the skellies with AoKL and use Oath for HoW
Maybe I could precast the HoW in town and then put it on stash and replace it with CtA/AoKL/Beast. Anyway, I'm completely at loss as what is the best course of action...
Thing to keep in mind is your summons will keep it higher slvl even when u remove it to stash or inventory.
Therefore if you don't mind doing a bit of juggling I would probably use this order AoKL .
AoKL to prebuff your RS+SM level and get your full minions out. Replace AoKL with CTA (after you use warcries) and put AoKL invertory.
So u can now BC and BO while on the other switch use Beast when u fight/run etc
Despite losing a few skeletons your remaining skeletons should have massive life boost and still have higher RS/MS level as well as having advantages from Beast when they engage.
Once BC, BO Drops just switch back to CTA from beast to prebuff them with the warcries.
Only switch back to to AoKL if you want to replenish your warriors/minions but keep it in inventory while CTA/BEAST combo are in play.
I do realise you can BC first before summon to get higher level but i personally think it a bit hassle to use CTA = Bc then AoKL to Summon and then back to CTA but it entirely up to you it only 1 skill level.
While I have not tested this i think the same theory should apply for HoW
ie wear Wisp and Oath to get higher HoW and then if unequip Oath, the ring should keep HoW alive while retaining the higher slvl of HoW. You can do this at the start when you are at the same stage when using AoKL.
Hope this helps. Tell us how you get on.
Kyo
^^Sounds like too much work to me.
Personally I think that Call to Arms is not needed for a summoner the skellies rarely die anyways.
I use Beast + Oath and it works pretty good. I suppose if you wanted to summon everything with AoKL and then swap it out with something that would be better but it seems like too much of a hassle. The main reason I keep Oath on my weapon switch at all times is that Heart of the Wolverine WILL die sometime and running back to your stash to summon him again seems like wasting more time then just hitting w and right clicking.
But if you want to run back to town every couple minutes I guess that's your perogative.
Mad Mantis
04-02-2005, 13:58
1) some reports say that the EIAS from Fanatism doesn't work with skellies at all or that it's effect is unnoticable.
3) it's damage is not that good (do skellies get the party damage or the full damage?)
1) RTB said that Skellies do have IAS bp's and that they are affected by the IAS from Fanat. I don't know the exact increase.
3) Unfortunately Skellies get the party damage.
As Kyo illustrated it is a bit of a hassle with all the prebuffing and switching, but the damage will be very high.
Have you thought about the optimal gear for your Merc yet?
OldSkoolGamer
04-02-2005, 14:07
2) it's range is very low.
I don't believe that I have ever seen a minion be out of the range of the Fanaticism. If you are going to be using Enigma anyway, will probably be regrouping your army enough that the range of the aura isn't really a concern.
Arreat Summit says that level 9 Fanatacism has a radius of 12.6 yards.
The Facts & Formulae Archive says that a "Resolution of 800 X 600 requires a distance of 14.212 Yards to reach the far corners of a screen."
Another way to boost your skellies would be the use of level 16 Heart of Wolverine from Oath rune word. It gives 125%ed, +130%ar and it has a very good radius. If you use a Wisp Projector ring as well, the HoW won't disappear when you weapon switch.
I never thought of this. Now I have a good reason to get a non-eth Oath. Thanks!
^^Sounds like too much work to me.
Personally I think that Call to Arms is not needed for a summoner the skellies rarely die anyways.
I use Beast + Oath and it works pretty good. I suppose if you wanted to summon everything with AoKL and then swap it out with something that would be better but it seems like too much of a hassle. The main reason I keep Oath on my weapon switch at all times is that Heart of the Wolverine WILL die sometime and running back to your stash to summon him again seems like wasting more time then just hitting w and right clicking.
But if you want to run back to town every couple minutes I guess that's your perogative.
You could be right with HoW as they can be snuffed out quite easily. On Paper/Screen (text) it does sound like the whole process is a bit complicated however as MM indicated the "hassle" might be worth it as imo it takes no more time or effort than summoning your army at the start of your game as your basically switching 1 item at the start that of AoKL to CTA when your done summoning.
Not sure if you realise this but your statement kind of agrees what i have just said as you acknowledge that warriors rarely die therefore your use of AoKL should be just as infrequent. (probably just at the start of your game ..hopefully)
Your main switch will be CTA/BEAST as you are going to have to renew your warcries anyway)
So it not really that complicated or hassle. With the massive life boost as well as ED/AR from BEAST (fanat) and HoW your skeletons will be ripping into things like hot knife through butter.
It almost like having your army of wannabe melee paladins at your disposal.
Liessa Wyrmbane
04-02-2005, 15:06
Thank you all for such constructive comments and precise aswers to my questions! :)
Ok, so the range of Fanatism is not such a big deal. That's good.
If the skellies only get the party bonus from Fanatism, then the ed% is only 93% and that is not much. It must be the EIAS and +AR% that makes the difference, eh?
I play hardcore so Call to Arms is pretty tempting in terms of survival. If I had to choose between CtA or AoKL I would choose CtA propably.
Basically the question is only how much "hassle" I am willing to endure for the increased killing speed. :)
Since I already have all the items and the item choice doesn't really affect skill/stat distribution, I guess the best thing to do would be just start building him and try the things out myself.
I'm curious to know what kinda solutions you have yourself selected for your Summoner?
Mad Mantis
04-02-2005, 15:42
If the skellies only get the party bonus from Fanatism, then the ed% is only 93% and that is not much. It must be the EIAS and +AR% that makes the difference, eh?.
The +%AR and EIAS are indeed very big selling points on a Beast, but let's not forget that when Beast was just released we didn't have all these fancy new runewords. So after prebuffing, getting a Beast was the best we could do to increase damage for our minions.
I'm curious to know what kinda solutions you have yourself selected for your Summoner?
Someday I will be able to make all the runewords I want. When that happens I will be wielding an AoKL to prebuff, an Oath for the HoW and a Beast to help my Warriors. The Beast will also allow me to melee. A CtA will be used for the BO.
Alternatively I can use a Faith bow to help my Skellies with.
Oh, and before I forget. Mad props to you for using the word "conundrum".
Personally I would use the AoKL to do initial summons. Then put it back in the stash. Most of the time, you'll end up probably losing 1-3 skels max throughout a game. It probably won't be worth it to go back to re-equip AoKL - just resummon with what you have.
I'd keep the CtA as a backup on switch after you've stashed the AoKL away. For the main weapon - especially since you're playing hardcore - have you considered (drumroll) Silence???
Yeah it's an old runeword, but it's got decent +2 skills, 30% MF, and probably the most important thing, 75% all resistances. My softcore summoner has about 380%MF and **maxxed** resistances in hell with this setup (+homonculous and a crappy +1skill prismatic resists ammy).
With Beast your skellies will probably kill faster, but I find that my killing speed is sufficient - especially with maxed CE.
What are you gonna equip your merc with? Currently I'm using Insight (I love spamming CE) but I'm considering changing to the fastest elite Crescent Moon I can use for the Merc, and stack as much IAS so static field can go off as much as possible...
Personally I would use the AoKL to do initial summons. Then put it back in the stash. Most of the time, you'll end up probably losing 1-3 skels max throughout a game. It probably won't be worth it to go back to re-equip AoKL - just resummon with what you have.
Actually imo it is definitly worth going back to resummon. By not using AoKL and using what you have you will be losing around 5 levels of RS + SM alone not to mention 2 extra levels from the all important Summon Resistance for your minions and that just coming from the one wand. If u keep CTA then that 4 levels on your summoning skills and to me that just leaving yourself with a huge disadvantage, just for something that would take u literally 4 secs to portal back.
With Beast your skellies will probably kill faster, but I find that my killing speed is sufficient - especially with maxed CE.
Fanaticism won't probably kill faster. it WILL definitely kill faster. Have you ever seen them at work. Hot knife through butter.
One good point that MM raised before is that Beast was good but Faith just got better :worship:
Alternatively I can use a Faith bow to help my Skellies with.
Faith is definately one up on Beast. If you use a good bow/crossbow you can add a 2500 (average) attack to your repertoire, and not sacifice point to PnB to get a support attack.
Another way to boost your skellies would be the use of level 16 Heart of Wolverine from Oath rune word. It gives 125%ed, +130%ar and it has a very good radius. If you use a Wisp Projector ring as well, the HoW won't disappear when you weapon switch.
As long as you are still holding the item with the charges, even on switch, your summon will remain, so no need to double up with a Wisp Projector unless you want to actually remove the Oath weapon from your weapon slot. I wouldn't do that since you will definitely need resummon your HoW during play.
Actually imo it is definitly worth going back to resummon. By not using AoKL and using what you have you will be losing around 5 levels of RS + SM alone not to mention 2 extra levels from the all important Summon Resistance for your minions and that just coming from the one wand. If u keep CTA then that 4 levels on your summoning skills and to me that just leaving yourself with a huge disadvantage, just for something that would take u literally 4 secs to portal back.
Depends on how much your RS/SM is already without the AoKL. If it's in the 30-35 slvl range, I wouldn't bother going back to town, especially if I just lose 1 or 2 skellies. Maybe I'm just really lazy. :D Then again, since the AoKL takes up only 2 inventory slots, might be worth it just to carry it around...
If you already have mid +skills to summon resist (which most summoners will have) then the lost 2 that you mentioned will be IMO negligible, given the steep diminishing returns on SR.
Beast = wealthy summoner weapon :)
AOKL = poor man style summoner weapon
But r nice but I just love to have aura eqquid on my char and beast really have great mode so I go for beast and beside it ain't really that expansive.
Depends on how much your RS/SM is already without the AoKL. If it's in the 30-35 slvl range, I wouldn't bother going back to town, especially if I just lose 1 or 2 skellies. Maybe I'm just really lazy. :D Then again, since the AoKL takes up only 2 inventory slots, might be worth it just to carry it around...
If you already have mid +skills to summon resist (which most summoners will have) then the lost 2 that you mentioned will be IMO negligible, given the steep diminishing returns on SR.
Zon i think you have missed the point. It not about losing 1 or 2 warriors/mages as your going to lose them anyway when switching to beast.
It the higher slvl retained on your summon warriors/mages that is the important thing here. If your not going use AoKL to resummon then your going to have some skillies (summoned initially) with better hp, defense, damage, attack and newly summoned minions with lower life, defence, damage and attack. In my book i would prefer all my troops to be better/hardier/more damaging as they need all the damage they can get espeically in hell difficulty when CE isn't always going to help depending on the situation.
If you got really high slvl already then it a matter of prfeerence i suppose.
Zon i think you have missed the point. It not about losing 1 or 2 warriors/mages as your going to lose them anyway when switching to beast.
Hehe.. no, I think you missed *my* point:
If you got really high slvl already then it a matter of prfeerence i suppose.
*That's* my point. :)
All I'm saying is, if your SM/RS is high enough without AoKL already, then going through the bother of switching out to AoKL just to resummon is icing on the cake / matter of preference... Personally I find initial summoning at 35ish SM/RS and resummoning when I lose a skelly at 30ish SM/RS is more than sufficient mfing/xping. That is soloing in 5 player games; if you do solo 8player then that might not be sufficient.
Since the original poster - Liassa - plays hardcore then the extra effort to resummon at max levels would probably be worth it.
sk8brdnick
08-02-2005, 07:50
It's not hard to load a summon nec up with +skills gear. IMHO The skills from arm don't matter enough to warrant the hassle of using arm. I'd simply use beast with CTA on switch and be done with it.
You have several interesting merc weapons options as well.
Doom is obviously an option particularly in HC where the slow could be a life saver.
Infinity might significantly boost kill speed by not only greatly enhancing chance to hit but boosting the dmg of your mages and the fire portion of corpse explosion as well.
Pride would also make a fine merc weapon. A bunch of nice mods combined with lvl 18 concentration. The total %dmg increase might be enough to warrant using a holy freeze merc instead of a might merc.
A final odd ball option would be an act 1 merc with harmony. You'd lose some dmg, skeletons haul *** with vigor. The speed with reach they would reach and swarm targets could make up for the loss in dmg.
Since the original poster - Liassa - plays hardcore then the extra effort to resummon at max levels would probably be worth it.
My point exactly.
Well Liessa, I experienced a lot with pure summoners and my opinion is that it comes to personal preference.
It's more like a luxury problem.
If you have AOKL and some summon skillers (with life pref.) your skellies won't die with some decent gear and they will do more then sufficient damage. The CTA on switch is just a sweat bonus for YOU when u have enigma for example and you tele by accident in the middle of a group annoying monsters with high damage. But then u can use bone armor more...
The beast gives imo an extra boost, when u will play it, you'll see that the killing speed of your minions WILL increase. Ok, it's party damage that adds up on their basic damage, but the speed of hitting is much much more interesting.
The ideal thing to do is: use cta, replace with aokl, raise skellies and switch to beast.
But: i am way too lazy to do that every time, so i just used aokl and beast:-).
I can't give any info about new runewords on ladder because i switched to nl when they came out... (damn stupid me).
Hope that helps a bit, cheers !
The ideal thing to do is: use cta, replace with aokl, raise skellies and switch to beast.
But: i am way too lazy to do that every time, so i just used aokl and beast
Scampi if you only use AoKL on switch and leave CTA in your box then what happens once their warcries run out. (it be pointless imo) :confused:
Would it not be better if he used AoKL on the intially summon (they hardly need to resummoned with the bonuses from CTA/BEAST) and the whole idea is to renewing the warcries once the duration runs out therefore CTA/BEAST on switch should be used for best affect??
Pherdnut
08-02-2005, 19:32
Going back to that cool equipping wisp projector after summoning one from another source idea, can you have more than one Druid Spirit if you have more than one source on you? I'm guessing no but am wonderinig how Bramble would do with this overall equip. Too bad Diablo III will be out and Diablo II retired to Gamespy mediocrity before I can afford most of these words. How on earth do you manage to build up such a fortune on Hard Core?
Edit: Also, wouldn't Pride's level 18 conviction aura be superior to the fanaticism items? General consensus at the pallie forums seems to be that conviction is a better party skill than fanatacism due to all the extra damage it does and the chance for attacks to be uninterruptable. Of course, maybe they're assuming people will already be taking care of their own attack rates whereas your skellies can't but Concentration gives close to twice as much of a damage bonus. Too bad you have to put it on a polearm.
Going back to that cool equipping wisp projector after summoning one from another source idea, can you have more than one Druid Spirit if you have more than one source on you?
Nope. Can't do that. Minions where you can only have "1" of (ie Druid Spirits, Bear summons, golems, Valkryie, etc) are resummoned, whether you have one source of summon or many.
Edit: Also, wouldn't Pride's level 18 conviction aura be superior to the fanaticism items? General consensus at the pallie forums seems to be that conviction is a better party skill than fanatacism due to all the extra damage it does and the chance for attacks to be uninterruptable. Of course, maybe they're assuming people will already be taking care of their own attack rates whereas your skellies can't but Concentration gives close to twice as much of a damage bonus. Too bad you have to put it on a polearm.
Hmm I think you've got things mixed here: Pride and Infinity. Both runewords are polearm-only. Pride gives a Level 18 Concentration aura... Infinity gives a level 12 Conviction aura. I'm assuming you're talking about Pride... :)
You may have a point about Concentration > Fanaticism, in terms of pure raw damage. *However*... Fantacism, on top of the speed increase, also gives a nice %bonus to AR, while Concentration doesn't. IMO the AR of your skellies is pretty important - doesn't matter how much damage they do if they keep missing.
Now, since Pride is a polearm runeword, and the Necro is holding a Beast, you can have both. That is assuming you're rich enough to afford both. :p
Liessa Wyrmbane
09-02-2005, 08:13
You may have a point about Concentration > Fanaticism, in terms of pure raw damage. *However*... Fantacism, on top of the speed increase, also gives a nice %bonus to AR, while Concentration doesn't. IMO the AR of your skellies is pretty important - doesn't matter how much damage they do if they keep missing.
Now, since Pride is a polearm runeword, and the Necro is holding a Beast, you can have both. That is assuming you're rich enough to afford both. :p
Indeed, Concentration is far superior to Fanatism from Beast damagewise, but like Zon2000 said, the +AR% and the +%IAS from Fanatism is what turns your skellies into such killing machines. I don't think I would go with Pride anyway, because it has such pitiful damage (no %ed at all) and the Hit Blinds Target interferes with my curses. I will go with Might merc and (I think) Ariocs Needle.
I did some calculations and the raw damage that AoKL adds to your skellies is HUGE. In fact, it outweights the raw damage bonus you get from level 9 Fanatism or level 16 HoW. I will use AoKL to summon the skellies, at least the initial ones. If one or two should die along the way I will just use Beast to resummon them.
I did some calculations and the raw damage that AoKL adds to your skellies is HUGE. In fact, it outweights the raw damage bonus you get from level 9 Fanatism or level 16 HoW. I will use AoKL to summon the skellies, at least the initial ones. If one or two should die along the way I will just use Beast to resummon them.
Nice Job :thumbsup:
edit :actually i will edit out the question and ask in druids forum (cautious aura) :o
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