View Full Version : New "Comprehensive Damage Quotient Calculator (CDQ)
All,
Elly has graciously posted a Javascript based Comprehensive Damage Quotient (CDQ) calculator that I have worked on intermittently for the last couple of years. I was made aware today of the 23 new Ladder-only rune words that are not included but otherwise it is pretty comprehensive. Check it out here if you have not already had a chance:
http://diabloii.net/calcs/
I wanted to make a calculator that did a decent job of rating the effectiveness of different weapons, and I wanted to have an easy way to auto-generate the statistics of many of the hard coded items (sets, uniques, rune words). So, I hope that some out there may still find value in the calculator that I and some others have enjoyed privately.
Please feel free to email (address is included on the page) or PM me here with corrections and constructive criticism and suggestions. Thanks to the Statistics community for providing the basis for so many of the equations that are incorporated in the calculator, and to RTB in particular for (continuing) advice and tutelage on the formulas and intricacies of D2.
kerygma
KillJoyBob
03-02-2005, 18:50
It looks good. A few comments:
1. I understand the "damge per swing" display option. What do you mean by the "damage per swing per frame" display option (just damage per frame perhaps)?
2. I would move the final damage display fields to the bottom of the page, it would be more intuitive that way. I would also like to see a damage per second as a third display option.
3. Have a separate field for all the different ED% boosters (you already have some of these):
a) Strength ED%
b) On-weapon ED%
c) Off-weapon ED%
d) Aura1, Aura2, Aura3... ED%s
e) Skill ED%
f) Synergy ED%
Instead of making people look up and calculate the ED% for the last three, why not let them choose the skill and slvl from a drop-down menu?
4. Are you going to include other damage boost effects, such as Deadly Strike or Amplify Damage? The Chance to cast/take effect can be calculated as an amount of damage per second (depending on your attack speed). For example, given the following conditions:
a) 33% CTC Amp Damage (Lacerator)
b) 50% Deadly Strike (High Lord's + Gore Rider)
c) 5-frame attack (5 attacks/sec)
d) Damage per Swing: 1000 (hypothetical after all other boosts)
Deadly Strike:
5000 Damage/Sec * 1.50 = 7500 Damage/Sec
Deadly Strike + Amp Damage:
7500 Damage/Sec * 1.33 = 9975 Damage/Sec (first second)
7500 Damage/Sec * 2.00 = 15000 Damage/Sec (subsequent seconds)
5. You haven't taken into account the IAS boost from Fanaticism, Burst of Speed, Zeal, Fury, etc. into you frames/attack calculation. Maybe, to begin with, just have people enter the frames/attack themselves using other speed calculators (i.e. German site).
6. You need a scroll-bar on your "read me" pop-up.
Thanks for your attention. :)
1. I understand the "damge per swing" display option. What do you mean by the "damage per swing per frame" display option (just damage per frame perhaps)?
Yes, that's basically the same thing. 'damage/swing' assumes a successful landing with the weapon. (early versions of the calculator also took into account charcter level and AR, monster DEF, ITD, etc., but that became a little too complicated). So, the nomenclature held over. Damage/hit would be a better way to quantize it. But most people assume the hits, so damage/swing/frame = damage/frame as discussed in these forums.
2. I would move the final damage display fields to the bottom of the page, it would be more intuitive that way. I would also like to see a damage per second as a third display option.
I really was not sure what would be the most intuitive display method for the final damage, and whether even including the final speed and on-weapon damage would just confuse things more. I could definitely do that.
Given the above (damage/swing/frame = damage/frame), would a third option still be necessary?
3. Have a separate field for all the different ED% boosters (you already have some of these):
a) Strength ED%
b) On-weapon ED%
c) Off-weapon ED%
d) Aura1, Aura2, Aura3... ED%s
e) Skill ED%
f) Synergy ED%
Instead of making people look up and calculate the ED% for the last three, why not let them choose the skill and slvl from a drop-down menu?
Right. I felt I wanted to draw the line at a certain point, and I chose to do that at the generic off-weapon ED%), because that was the last stage common to all character classes (arbitrary, yes). (At the off-weapon ED% stage all the additional ED% can be summed together and applied here accurately.) After that, I felt the complexity of integrating all the skill permutations would make the GUI even more inaccessible, and the code that much more complicated.
If someone wants to grab the code and do that themselves, they are more than welcome. All the Javascript is in that one HTML page, so it is easily portable and editable.
4. Are you going to include other damage boost effects, such as Deadly Strike or Amplify Damage? The Chance to cast/take effect can be calculated as an amount of damage per second (depending on your attack speed). For example, given the following conditions: ....
Deadly Strike is included, but not a pull down or additional box for DS/CS from skills or additional runes. (You can always calculate (in the case of combined DS and CS) or simply add them to the DS field.)
The additional percentages for Amp, et al, could be incorporated. I'll have to think about that and whether it would be worthwhile (to start down the skill-specific road).
5. You haven't taken into account the IAS boost from Fanaticism, Burst of Speed, Zeal, Fury, etc. into you frames/attack calculation. Maybe, to begin with, just have people enter the frames/attack themselves using other speed calculators (i.e. German site).
Exactly. I actually referenced the German speed site in an earlier Readme, but thought that might be a bad idea. As referenced in the Readme, this calculator does not account for skill specific speed mods. Again, anyone that wants to add them, be my guest.
6. You need a scroll-bar on your "read me" pop-up.
Yes, I know some other people had trouble navigating the popup (mousewheel and arrow keys work fine for me). I have already submitted a version to Elly with the scrollbars included that will probably be up in the next few days.
Thanks for your attention. :)
No problem! Thanks for the constructive advice!
kerygma
KillJoyBob
03-02-2005, 20:33
Yes, that's basically the same thing. 'damage/swing' assumes a successful landing with the weapon. (early versions of the calculator also took into account charcter level and AR, monster DEF, ITD, etc., but that became a little too complicated). So, the nomenclature held over. Damage/hit would be a better way to quantize it. But most people assume the hits, so damage/swing/frame = damage/frame as discussed in these forums.
Got it.
I really was not sure what would be the most intuitive display method for the final damage, and whether even including the final speed and on-weapon damage would just confuse things more. I could definitely do that.
Not a big deal either way.
Given the above (damage/swing/frame = damage/frame), would a third option still be necessary?
Since some (mostly caster) damage sources are measured in seconds, I thought a total damage per second might give a better number for comparison. It's fine the way it is now.
If someone wants to grab the code and do that themselves, they are more than welcome. All the Javascript is in that one HTML page, so it is easily portable and editable.
I'll take a look. It will require a notable effort to include all ED% boosting skills/auras/spirits.
Deadly Strike is included, but not a pull down or additional box for DS/CS from skills or additional runes. (You can always calculate (in the case of combined DS and CS) or simply add them to the DS field.)
D'oh, missed it.
The additional percentages for Amp, et al, could be incorporated. I'll have to think about that and whether it would be worthwhile (to start down the skill-specific road).
AD is one of the few skills that appears on items as CTC, that will dramatically increase physical damage output. I can't think of another skill with the same ramifications.
Exactly. I actually referenced the German speed site in an earlier Readme, but thought that might be a bad idea. As referenced in the Readme, this calculator does not account for skill specific speed mods. Again, anyone that wants to add them, be my guest.
Trying to add a module that will account for all "attack speed" calculations, will be a little much. A simple field for entering frame/attack will suffice. Again, I'll look at the code.
Cheers.
BaldJean
04-02-2005, 22:10
The calculator should take into account a weapon upgrade. My Amazon for example uses Witchwild String upgraded from short siege bow to diamond bow, with an additional socket from Larzuk. I inserted a Shael rune and a perfect skull, and she really rocks with it.
Easy solution: Pick Whichwild String from the unique list, then change the weapon at Base Characteristics to Diamond Bow. The name will disappear, but the stats of it will stay. You can also 'create' a Whichwild String Matriarchal Bow this way.
When a unique already has sockets btw, Larzuk cannot add another to it. 1.10 Whichwild Strings have 2 sockets.
BaldJean
04-02-2005, 23:38
Larzuk can add sockets to unique items that have a socket as part of their uniqueness, but not to unique items that have already been added a socket.
krischan
05-02-2005, 12:41
IMO the calculator is a little confusing, but so is the damage calculation process :) A documentation with a few examples about how to set up everything would help, I guess, although I admit I haven't searched for one.
IMO the calculator is a little confusing, but so is the damage calculation process :) A documentation with a few examples about how to set up everything would help, I guess, although I admit I haven't searched for one.
I agree. I considered a simple two column approach, with fields on the right, descriptions on the left (or something to that effect), but it would be excessively long in length, requiring quite a bit of scrolling. (I can view the calculator on one page without needing to scroll, but I use a higher than average resolution and a lower than average font size.) I am very open to a new format, if it would make things more intuitive. But, I like to be able to see all the (non-skill specific) damage factors at once.
After using it for quite a while, I find it very easy now :), but there is definitely a learning curve for non-developers. I realize how ugly the thing is, and am open to improving it. :)
A documentation with a few examples about how to set up everything would help, I guess, although I admit I haven't searched for one.
There is a simple example in the readme, down at the bottom in the section on the popup comparison chart, but it is very limited in its tutorial value.
An expansive How-To would be very nice, I admit.
AD is one of the few skills that appears on items as CTC, that will dramatically increase physical damage output. I can't think of another skill with the same ramifications.
It doesn't look practical for the effects of amplify damage or decrepify to be added to this calc. These skills increase effective damage by reducing the cursed target's resistance to physical damage, not by increasing the damge dealt by the character.
Larzuk can add sockets to unique items that have a socket as part of their uniqueness, but not to unique items that have already been added a socket.
Sorry, no. If this were the case, you'd be using a 3 socket WWS.
KillJoyBob
07-02-2005, 19:47
It doesn't look practical for the effects of amplify damage or decrepify to be added to this calc.
It's not practical? In what sense? The logic can be easily added to the code (a lot easier than CB).
These skills increase effective damage by reducing the cursed target's resistance to physical damage, not by increasing the damge dealt by the character.
That's just semantics. The user of the calculator probably doesn't care how the damage is boosted, but is interested in what the final tally is.
I can understand trying to justify my suggestion to kerygma (the calc's creator), but why are you chiming in? If you have suggestions of your own, let's hear them. :rolleyes:
Oscuro's point is that (for example) Amp Damage subtracts a direct 100% from the target's DR, rather than a scaling fator (which could be accounted for).
So, for example, a creature with no DR will have damage against it doubled, while a creature with 50% DR will have damage against it effectively tripled (it is normally halved, but with Amp becomes 150% of normal). To handle this in a non-misleading way, the calculator would need to either know the DR of all creatures (unreasonable) or you would need to input it yourself (which almost all people can't do accurately).
So, it is just cleaner to leave out any target-dependent effects at all, which unfortunately does include Amp or Decrep.
Similarly, I don't think anyone has mentioned %ed vs Undead or Demons? That would need to be factored in at the same time as off-weapon %ed, but is again target-dependent.
KillJoyBob
08-02-2005, 01:42
Oscuro's point is that (for example) Amp Damage subtracts a direct 100% from the target's DR, rather than a scaling fator (which could be accounted for).
So, for example, a creature with no DR will have damage against it doubled, while a creature with 50% DR will have damage against it effectively tripled (it is normally halved, but with Amp becomes 150% of normal). To handle this in a non-misleading way, the calculator would need to either know the DR of all creatures (unreasonable) or you would need to input it yourself (which almost all people can't do accurately).
So, it is just cleaner to leave out any target-dependent effects at all, which unfortunately does include Amp or Decrep.
Similarly, I don't think anyone has mentioned %ed vs Undead or Demons? That would need to be factored in at the same time as off-weapon %ed, but is again target-dependent.
All physical damage is target-dependant, isn't it? Since monsters in the game have various degrees of physical resistance (not to mention other players).
BTW, %ED to demons/undead are actually factored into calculator.
All physical damage is target-dependant, isn't it? Since monsters in the game have various degrees of physical resistance (not to mention other players).
While it is true that all damage is in the end target dependant, I wanted the comparable damage of one weapon to another to be relatively scalable. (For this reason, I also chose to negate the elemental effects of the "piercing" attribute.) As an example of scalar damage increases, dovetailing on an earlier post, 100% ED will in fact do double the damage attributable to the base damage of a weapon (or double the total physical damage in the case of CS/DS). (This is not the case for defense reducing effects.)
The effect of Amp is similar to elemental damage (which I include) because the effectiveness of elemental damage is relative to monster/character resistances. Or CB (mentioned earlier) because of the relative hit points of monsters/characters.
BTW, %ED to demons/undead are actually factored into calculator.
That's correct. (I realize that you are responding to the prior post.) While the damage is computed relative to the input monster ratio (or for PvP settings) the ED% is applied linearly against the specified targets.
Maybe I could provide a way to incorporate damage from Amp, but not by default, the same way that CB damage is not incorporated unless a value for Hit Points is included. This would involve a field for the Defense Rating of the target that could be toggled or is infinite unless input manually.
To be consistent, should I also include fields for the immunities and resistances for each element? I originally had these fields for the monsters/enemies: resistances for each element (including physical), level, and defense rating, as well as the presently included fields for hit points and relative monster composition. (If anyone thinks the form is confusing now...)
Presently, the relative effects of CB and damage to undead/demons can be easily negated with the existing form. Presently, you can't negate the elemental damage for the popup, and the damage from Amp and other skills (chance to cast level 18 Chain lightning, et al?) are not presently accessible. I think it is worth discussion to decide what is the reasonable limitation for the scope of this calculator.
Edit: I think that the relative effect of Amp and Decrepify may be enough to justify their inclusion. I honestly did not even think of it before. How many weapons are we talking about here (I usually only consider properties if they are a property of the weapon itself, and not from other equipment)? I see that the Brand RW has Amp, but it only applies when struck, and Wrath has Decrep on striking. (Another reason they were not included - these are new RW's I am just now working at incorporating.) Help me out here. Thanks! :)
Edit 2: I also did think about the effect of Static Field on striking (Crescent Moon, a great inexpensive RW), which is also sizable, but dependant on monster immunity to lightning (something not included). Sidebar: What is the PvP penalty for SF?
To all the posters: This has been extemely instructive and helpful, and I thank everyone for their input. Please continue with the ideas and constructive criticism. This has been an excellent exchange. :)
To be consistent, should I also include fields for the immunities and resistances for each element? I originally had these fields for the monsters/enemies: resistances for each element (including physical), level, and defense rating, as well as the presently included fields for hit points and relative monster composition. (If anyone thinks the form is confusing now...)
An idea would be a seperate calculator for monster stats and have a link to it on the CDQ. It involves three spreadsheets, one name translater file, and a tiny bit of math. The fact that it would also be the first calculator/website to have the correct 1.10 monster data is important as well.
Presently, the relative effects of CB and damage to undead/demons can be easily negated with the existing form. Presently, you can't negate the elemental damage for the popup, and the damage from Amp and other skills (chance to cast level 18 Chain lightning, et al?) are not presently accessible. I think it is worth discussion to decide what is the reasonable limitation for the scope of this calculator.
I'd say put the limit at melee/ranged attacks, and not include (chance to cast) spells. It's still possible to add such skills manually, by getting the dmg values from a skill calc and multiply them with the chance for an average dmg done per hit.
Edit: I think that the relative effect of Amp and Decrepify may be enough to justify their inclusion. I honestly did not even think of it before. How many weapons are we talking about here (I usually only consider properties if they are a property of the weapon itself, and not from other equipment)? I see that the Brand RW has Amp, but it only applies when struck, and Wrath has Decrep on striking. (Another reason they were not included - these are new RW's I am just now working at incorporating.) Help me out here. Thanks! :)
Amplify Damage is common enough on it's own, with a number of uniques with either charges or chance to cast, and Decripify can be found on the popular merc-weapon The Reaper's Toll.
Edit 2: I also did think about the effect of Static Field on striking (Crescent Moon, a great inexpensive RW), which is also sizable, but dependant on monster immunity to lightning (something not included). Sidebar: What is the PvP penalty for SF?
I'm not sure, but it's problably not even reduced by the normal PvP penalty because it's not damage; just like CB.
Is it just me, or are there rune words missing from this calculator? Was this intentional?
Is it just me, or are there rune words missing from this calculator? Was this intentional?
Wambat, the newer Ladder-only rune words are not in there yet. I'm putting them in, but have been very busy (daughter born last Friday, wife still recovering from c-section). I'll get them in there as fast as I can.
All,
I finished including the new Rune Words today. I sent the updated CDQ to Elly to post at diabloii.net. Other minor changes were made as well. (Another version yet to be posted is the one I sent including the scrollbars on the popups.)
So, the changes you'll notice (once the updated version is posted to diabloii.net) include:
20050211
# Incorporated: The new Ladder-Only Rune Words (finally)!
# Changed: Value of required level displayed in the popup for Rune Words to the maximum of the base item type required level and the Rune Word required level. Also included base item required level filter for popup.
# Corrected: Rune Word filter now working for Missile weapons
20050203
# Incorporated: Scrollbars to all the popup windows (1-handed CDQ, 2-handed CDQ, Readme, and Log)
KillJoyBob
14-02-2005, 17:50
...(daughter born last Friday, wife still recovering from c-section)...
Congratulations on the birth of your daughter. I hope your wife has a speedy recovery.
Congratulations on the birth of your daughter. I hope your wife has a speedy recovery.
Thanks! The family is recovering well.
I hope to incorporate some of the changes we've discussed (probably Amp and Decrepify, maybe more Monster/Enemy Characteristic information for resistances (physical/elemental)), but probably not for a couple of weeks. :( Things at work are extremely hectic and some research for teaching responsibilities at my church will have to occupy my extracurricular time in the immediate future. Hope to get back to this soon enough, and hope the updated CDQ with the newer RW's is posted even sooner. :) Thanks again, all.
Oh, lastly, for my clarification: As I hinted earlier, is my understanding that (what Blizzard has called in their Monster pages) Physical Resistance is the same as Damage Reduction (DR)? I, in my naivete, assumed DR was for all damage, not just physical. (Being a PvMer, I'm less atune, I guess.). A little lucidity on the intricacies here would be helpful. Thanks!
The CDQ update (noted above) has been posted. Thanks, Elly!
Oh, lastly, for my clarification: As I hinted earlier, is my understanding that (what Blizzard has called in their Monster pages) Physical Resistance is the same as Damage Reduction (DR)? I, in my naivete, assumed DR was for all damage, not just physical. (Being a PvMer, I'm less atune, I guess.). A little lucidity on the intricacies here would be helpful. Thanks!
"Damage Reduced By x%" is the same as Physical Resistance. Remember to cap it at 50% for player and mercs.
I. Ok, I think I'll have a couple of hours to spend on the CDQ over the next week or so, so I'll try to incorporate the Amp Damage and Decrepify curses from weapons. I'll probably make them radio buttons, as I assume you can't have both active at the same time. I anticipate applying it as I do all the damage: Assume the enemy has 0% Resistances for all elements and physical, thus displaying the full damage potential. The question I have for Amp and Dec is:
Do I take the total physical damage after all other calculations, and multiply it by (1 + DR/100)? (I assume so. This is the natural way of doing it, similar to Deadly Strike.)
And if I do this (Amp/Dec), then I should probably consider the elemental piercing effect that is included on some weapons. This is much less common, and would have a minimal effect, but seems only fair for weapons like the Thunderstroke, which pierces lightning resistance and adds 1-511 lightning damage.
II. And secondly, I'm finally going to add an overlooked item that I can't believe I neglected - a Superior checkbox in the Base Characteristics area. It will simply add the max, 15% (right?). Questions on this topic:
I assume the damage is applied with (not prior to) on-weapon ED%. So, a superior weapon w/ 15% ED base and 100% ED on-weapon, results in a combined 115% ED.
And secondly, how is it applied to ethereal weapons? I assume the ethereal mod is applied first, and then the superior characteristic with the on-weapon ED. Having stated it like that, it does seem obvious, but input from the community would be helpful.
Thanks, all. Hope to get those updates in there ASAP. Keep the good ideas coming, and I'll do what I can (ie. within reason). :)
kerygma
Edit: I removed some content on the MPQ files that would only cause confusion.
"Damage Reduced By x%" is the same as Physical Resistance. Remember to cap it at 50% for player and mercs.
Thanks. And I'll cap it (damage from Amp, I guess) at 50% if the PvP box is checked.
I. Ok, I think I'll have a couple of hours to spend on the CDQ over the next week or so, so I'll try to incorporate the Amp Damage and Decrepify curses from weapons. I'll probably make them radio buttons, as I assume you can't have both active at the same time. I anticipate applying it as I do all the damage: Assume the enemy has 0% Resistances for all elements and physical, thus displaying the full damage potential. The question I have for Amp and Dec is:
Do I take the total physical damage after all other calculations, and multiply it by (1 + DR/100)? (I assume so. This is the natural way of doing it, similar to Deadly Strike.)
That is if the physical resist is negative. Use (1 - DR/100) if it's positive.
Only one curse may be active at one time.
And if I do this (Amp/Dec), then I should probably consider the elemental piercing effect that is included on some weapons. This is much less common, and would have a minimal effect, but seems only fair for weapons like the Thunderstroke, which pierces lightning resistance and adds 1-511 lightning damage.
It would mean adding four more boxes, not so good if you intend to keep it relatively simple. Simple resistance boxes with a comment to add piercing to it yourself would be better.
II. And secondly, I'm finally going to add an overlooked item that I can't believe I neglected - a Superior checkbox in the Base Characteristics area. It will simply add the max, 15% (right?). Questions on this topic:
5 - 15%.
I assume the damage is applied with (not prior to) on-weapon ED%. So, a superior weapon w/ 15% ED base and 100% ED on-weapon, results in a combined 115% ED.
Correct.
And secondly, how is it applied to ethereal weapons? I assume the ethereal mod is applied first, and then the superior characteristic with the on-weapon ED. Having stated it like that, it does seem obvious, but input from the community would be helpful.
Ethereal first, then ed%.
Edit: I removed some content on the MPQ files that would only cause confusion.
Coulda left them there :p
Thanks. And I'll cap it (damage from Amp, I guess) at 50% if the PvP box is checked.
50% would be the upper cap for players/hirelings, -100% as the lower cap for all monsters.
It would mean adding four more boxes, not so good if you intend to keep it relatively simple. Simple resistance boxes with a comment to add piercing to it yourself would be better.
Yeah, it's looking more and more like I need resistance value boxes in the Monster/PvP area. This would be better than adding more piercing entry boxes for each of the elements. And as you know, I do like the idea of keeping things simple.
5 - 15%.
Right. I'll probably have a checkbox to apply the max (15%). If a tweaker wants to compare his exact 8% ED item, then I recommend just adding that to the on-weapon ED% without Superior checked.
50% would be the upper cap for players/hirelings, -100% as the lower cap for all monsters.
I'll probably have checkboxes/radio buttons for Amp/Dec, but apply it invisibly by not modifiying the DR/phys resistance values entered by the user but applying the difference internally, displaying the difference in the CDQ value.
.
I'll mock up a non-functioning form soon, so that people can get a better idea. Or, I might be done soon enough. :).
kerygma
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