ww sin question about armor

[lordpride]

i'm wondering if its better to use a 47% psn archon bramble or a dusk enigma on a ww sin? I know enigma would save a lot of stats to use in dex and life, but would the psn from bramble be the better choice?

[skygoneblue]

Nat's with 3 poison would be better than both, but I would say Bramble between those two.

[combatman]

Can u explain why natalias with 3* 5/5 is better then bramble?, i mean ok, u get a lot of life, 15/15 poison dmg, 2 skills,, but with good bramble u get more dmg about 20%, fhr, 100 poison res,....+ thorns aura(well ok i doubt this 1 helps in pvp)

[skygoneblue]

Easily. When you take the 2 Shadow Disciplines into consideration, the poison damage that is added by just those two skill points in Venom, in combination with 2 facets, is easily over a 60% enhancement to your damage. As you get higher in levels, the Venom damage gets greater as well (increasing the minimum from 25 to 30 points per level, for example). + Skills in Venom is much better than % Damage.

[Zangeif]

enigma > bramble > nats

[skygoneblue]

Care to elaborate?

[Elwood]

nats is no doubt a decent armor, but for some sins (ie. those who use fade over bos primarily) it can be somewhat of a burden due to the heavy armor class.

[skygoneblue]

Well, the boots give good 40% run walk, and adding charms will help with that too.

Besides, you don't run all that much with a WW Assassin. At least, you shouldn't be running anyway. Dragon Flight and WhirlWind are about all you need.

[Elwood]

its hard to chase a nigma necro with capped fcr, even with dflight. considering the slow cast rate on dflight and how buggy it is, it's unreliable to catch an opponent with it. and no one really uses nats boots, even if they were they'd still be slow with a heavy class armor on.

[skygoneblue]

Well, points taken. All I was saying was that you get the best poison damage with Nat's, and WW Assassins generally go for big poison damage and Open Wounds. You suffer some sort of penalty either way, but the choice is yours.

[Zangeif]

OK I'll elaborate.

Teleport is invaluable. Here are situations where you need teleport to have a decent chance:

Against casters who teleport quickly (125 fcr necros, 105 fcr sorcs) you can't compete with using a 24 frame DFlight. You will rarely land it, and will rarely catch them.

DFlight also has a long recast time meaning you will be waiting for it to recharge often. Running around while they tele circles around you spamming orbs/spears while you wait for DFlight to recharge means death.

When you namelock them with mb and establish a stunlock but they are pushed far off screen. This is usually how it goes, mb, wof, mb, wof, mb, now they are far off screen but you know you have a stunlock for a second or 2. If you DFlight, you will get the failed DFlight where you dont actually tele but you need to wait for it to recharge. You will be mad and slam your desk with a fist. However, when you have them namelocked you can tele on top of them from any distance.

Lastly, if you always move with tele, your claw block will always have the chance to work. If you are walking/running it will not work.

Enigma also has +2 skills, a ton of str which means more vit, 5% max life, and 8% DR. GREAT mods besides tele.

Bramble is a distant second best because of the fhr and lower str req than nats. The thorns also adds a little extra dmg vs melee. Poison damage doens't do much vs. a good dueler with high resists.

Nats has +2 skills which is decent but not as good as 50% fhr imo. Thats why I rank it under bramble. The life doesn't really do anything since the str req is higher you will actually be losing life if you use it. The facets do little just as the poison damage from bramble does little.

Comparing Enigma to either of the 2 it is the obvious choice. Poison damage on bramble or the 15/-15 on faceted nats will help against crappy duelers who have low poison resists and have no gear swap to increase their poison res. However, you should be able to beat these people anyway. Enigma not only gives you teleport, but the other bonuses are great as well.

I've never tried duress but I'm sure it's worse than enigma. It may be better than nats or bramble though, I really don't know

[Speederländer]

Easily. When you take the 2 Shadow Disciplines into consideration, the poison damage that is added by just those two skill points in Venom, in combination with 2 facets, is easily over a 60% enhancement to your damage. As you get higher in levels, the Venom damage gets greater as well (increasing the minimum from 25 to 30 points per level, for example). + Skills in Venom is much better than % Damage.

The poison damage % from bramble gets added TWICE due to the application bug. The numbers say it's better.

You use enigma when you need mobility.

You use bramble when you need damage and mobility is not an issue.

[Speederländer]

Poison damage doens't do much vs. a good dueler with high resists.

If your opponent has 75% res in hell plus enough stacked to prevent any lower resist factors (i.e. facets, etc.) as well as 25% poison length reduction, a high level venom will STILL do massive damage. At least as much as your physical, usually more.

[Zangeif]

No, poison does VERY little against 75% resists/75% reduction. Many duelers will have more than 75% res. You can still use Bramble to prebuff if you use enigma or nats. This negates the "poison damage being applied twice" argument, since it will only be applied once more than with nats/enigma.

In many situations, 15/-15 nats adds more poison damage than bramble. For example, if you are dueling an opponent who has 95% poison resist, but no stacked resists, the -15% resist will increase your poison damage by 300% as opposed to the 50% on bramble.

I built my latest ww asn to be able to wear enigma or bramble vs melee. Looking back, I should have built her for only enigma, since beating melee character is very easy anyway. I still wear the bramble sometimes to hit 90 fhr against wind druids though, I don't really need tele to beat them since they need to get close to hit anyway.

[Elwood]

explain to me how beating melee characters (ie. bvb barbs) is easy for you (with enigma) ?

[Zangeif]

Well you aren't gonna beat ww barbs so don't worry about it.

Any other melee char is easy for me though (zeal, fury, conc, cs, smite, charge) you're hitting at 4 frames and wont get hit while you're whirling.

[Speederländer]

No, poison does VERY little against 75% resists/75% reduction. Many duelers will have more than 75% res. You can still use Bramble to prebuff if you use enigma or nats. This negates the "poison damage being applied twice" argument, since it will only be applied once more than with nats/enigma.

In many situations, 15/-15 nats adds more poison damage than bramble. For example, if you are dueling an opponent who has 95% poison resist, but no stacked resists, the -15% resist will increase your poison damage by 300% as opposed to the 50% on bramble.

I built my latest ww asn to be able to wear enigma or bramble vs melee. Looking back, I should have built her for only enigma, since beating melee character is very easy anyway. I still wear the bramble sometimes to hit 90 fhr against wind druids though, I don't really need tele to beat them since they need to get close to hit anyway.


You’re just flat out wrong on those points.

VERY few duelers sport both max psn res and psn length reduction. Further, they don’t know to wear PLR unless you make an issue about your leet poison skill.

That said, let’s assume you are right and there’s some dude out there with both.

So, our target has 75% psn res and 75% PLR. Let’s look at a few cases.

CASE 1:

We do the monster pre-buff. That is, bramble, trangs, +3 shadow claws with 2x facets, +3 shadow helm with 2x facets, +3 shadow ammy, arachnid, 2x SOJs, Shadow dancers (for +2), anni, battle cry, and 10x shadow GCs with whatever mods. Also, level 20 base venom.

So, what’s our pre-buff poison damage with all this stuff?
Total venom level = 20 + 10 + 6 + 3 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 2 + 1 +1 = 49
Average base venom damage = 1400 over .4 sec
Venom damage with 45% (bramble – taking liberty with the higher end) + 25% (trangs) + 30% (facets) = 2800 over .4 sec
Venom damage after -100% poison length penalty in hell = 5600 over .8 sec.

That’s raw pre-buff. Now, assume we switch to our standard gear and keep on the bramble and trangs.
Re-application bug from poison damage for bramble and trangs = 9520 over .8 seconds
Subject to PvP penalty = 1587 over .8 seconds.

However, your target has 75% PLR, so we go back a couple steps:
-100% poison length penalty becomes -25% yielding 3500 over .8 seconds
Re-application of this amount yields 5950 over .8 seconds
Subject to PvP penalty = 992 over .8 sec.
Subject to 75% res = 248 over .8 seconds.

SO, our venom is inflicting 248 damage per application (assuming at least .8 sec between kicks actually connecting due to blocking, chance-to-hit, etc.). How does that compare to physical damage?
Let’s assume a BIG physical kick damage range of 2000 - 1200.
Average physical kick damage = 1600
After PvP penalty = 266
Assume, say, 40 DR = 160

So, 248 vs. 160. Venom wins. Even if you want to talk overlapping applications, your statement about venom doing VERY LITTLE is incorrect.

CASE 2:

But, to be fair, let’s assume that you only pre-buff with the equipment you are wearing. This is the “standard” dueler, right?
So what equipment do we have? +3 shadow claws on switch with 2x facets each, +2 shako, +2 mara, +2 dancers, +1 anni, +10 shadow charms, +2 enigma. We’ll even assume no bramble. Venom base level = 20.
Total skill points = 45.
Base venom damage at level 45 = 1260
Venom with 25% trangs + 30% facets = 1953
Venom after -100 poison length penalty and 75% PLR on target = 2441 over .8 sec
Venom after re-application of external % (trangs only) = 3051
After PvP penalty = 508
After 75% res = 127

So psn damage = 127 in this case and our physical damage from before was 160. Poison, even after 75% res and 75% PLR on the target is 80% of our 2000 – 1200 kick physical damage!!!

So you see, poison is ALWAYS critical and usually more than the physical. VERY FEW duelers run around with as much physical damage as I have outlined. VERY MANY can get this second case venom damage. If they wear bramble, it’s even more.


As to your comments regarding nats vs. bramble, you’re also incorrect.
First, I have never encountered anyone who loaded on 95% psn res against my kicker. Ever. That’s not a valid case. If they use 95% res, ok, sure, your psn damage will be small. And against the one or two people roaming bnet with 95% psn res to throw at you you can't rely on venom, that much.
Second, if they go to the trouble of getting 95% psn res, they probably have a enough stacked to render the -15% res from the facets in nats to be usless.
Third, I’m just not in the mood to run the damage numbers on bramble vs. nats. Bramble is more. If you want to make the claim that nats is more, then show your numbers. Also, take into account the first two points. If you want to run extreme cases, also show standard cases. The 40% to 50% from bramble with the re-application bug will always trump 2 skill levels and 15% from facets. It just will.

Quick thumbnail calc...
venom level 40 = 1085
venom level 42 = 1155
Difference = 70

Are you claiming that the 70 damage increase from 2 skill points + 15% from facets to the base trumps 40 to 50% from bramble to the base? Don’t forget the re-application bug. Bramble is more.


All that said, I do agree that enigma is a great armor for a kicker. As long as it’s an anti-caster build.

[Elwood]

So you see, poison is ALWAYS critical and usually more than the physical. VERY FEW duelers run around with as much physical damage as I have outlined. VERY MANY can get this second case venom damage. If they wear bramble, it’s even more.

not many people run around willing to use that barrage of prebuff gear either on a regular basis, even in you're 2nd case not alot of people are going to put forth the effort to buff that much unless it's a tourny match or likewise.

other than that i agree with you're points & numbers, well put :p

[Speederländer]

not many people run around willing to use that barrage of prebuff gear either on a regular basis, even in you're 2nd case not alot of people are going to put forth the effort to buff that much unless it's a tourny match or likewise.

other than that i agree with you're points & numbers, well put :p

In the second case all they have to do is a weapon switch....assuming they don't use a CTA. In any event, I was running numbers vs. the 75 res, 75 PLR opponent. If you skip the switch and go vs. everyone else, poison damage is still often higher than physical damage.

[ilkori]

I don't think it's a bug that poison gets a double application. Meh, that's just me. :D

[Speederländer]

I don't think it's a bug that poison gets a double application. Meh, that's just me. :D

Yeah, it very well may not be.

[Zangeif]

OK these are the points you claim I'm wrong on.

In many situations, 15/-15 nats adds more poison damage than bramble. For example, if you are dueling an opponent who has 95% poison resist, but no stacked resists, the -15% resist will increase your poison damage by 300% as opposed to the 50% on bramble.

No this is simple math, I'm not wrong.

I built my latest ww asn to be able to wear enigma or bramble vs melee. Looking back, I should have built her for only enigma, since beating melee character is very easy anyway. I still wear the bramble sometimes to hit 90 fhr against wind druids though, I don't really need tele to beat them since they need to get close to hit anyway.

Melee characters are easy to beat, if you disagree, you must have a terribly equipped assassin, since they don't take much skill to beat either.

No, poison does VERY little against 75% resists/75% reduction. Many duelers will have more than 75% res. You can still use Bramble to prebuff if you use enigma or nats. This negates the "poison damage being applied twice" argument, since it will only be applied once more than with nats/enigma.

Now heres the one you really tried to prove wrong. 127 venom damage is not much. I do more damage with mindblast than with venom in most of my duels. You also compared it to kick damage. WW damage will be much more. I use a 290-350 damage 30ias warfist as my primary weapon. I do much more than 1200-2000 damage with it. You also didn't calculate the damage from 3/20/20s, or critical strike.

Poison does much less than physical. If you want to bring your ww asn to a game (I wont be on today) I will glady let you stand there and hit me with a high level venom while I wear nats armor and treks and you can see how little the pison does. You can then stand there while I whirl you without venom and you will die VERY quickly.

Still, I don't understand what you are arguing. If you're arguing that bramble is better than nats, I already agreed with you in my first post. If you are arguing that bramble is better than enigma, not only are you insane, but the points you are arguing don't apply. No matter how much damage bramble adds, if you never hit them it doesn't matter. You can spit out numbers and theories all you want, but anyone who has dueled a lot with a ww asn knows that enigma is necessary to beat good casters. Sure you can beat bad casters with bramble or nats, and you can get lucky against good duelers every once in a while with non-enigma armors.

Are you on USeast. If so, PLEASE join a game with me, we can test your numbers and I guarantee I will prove to you how little venom does.

[Speederländer]

You know, you make a comment like this:

Now heres the one you really tried to prove wrong. 127 venom damage is not much. I do more damage with mindblast than with venom in most of my duels.

And I just can't take you seriously. Why?

That 127 damage was actual PvP damage vs. 75 res and 75 PLR.
A level 50 (!!!) mindblast causes 57 PvP damage, 28 PvP damage vs. 50 PDR. And I know you don't have a level 50 MB. It sounds like you pack 3/20/20's in favor of shadow GCs anyway so your MB is much much lower than level 50. Assume for a moment that with skills and items you have a level 32 MB. That's 33 PvP damage, 16 PvP damage after going through 50 DR.

You keep running loose with your numbers. I also notice you took my case 2 (worst case) and not case 1 or, better yet, something in between.

Yes, I was talking kick while you were talking ww but the primary points still apply.

Let's assume a 3000 AVERAGE physical damage WW on EACH claw. This is high. Very few people ever average 3K on their WW. Don't use 39x 3/20/20's as a typical ww assassin either.
That's 500 PvP and 250 PvP vs. 50 DR.
Let's assume 50% chance to crit on EACH claw. This means you have an average physical damage across all hits, assuming critical hits 50% of the time, of 375 actual physical damage per hit.

So, even against your 75/75 opponent, venom from case 2 causes 34% of your physical damage. Still very significant. And this is with insanely high WW physical damage on BOTH claws and 50% critical on BOTH claws.

Against case 1, with a big prebuff, we have a venom damage of 248 vs. your 75/75 target. That's 66% of your physical.

So what's the summary?
Venom is significant if you make even minimal effort to boost it. Even against an opponent with 75% res, 75% PLR in hell.

If you're going to disprove me, you had better have the analysis to back it up. My pre-buff EQ for venom is not that hard to get. You however are making your points by referring to a 290-350 damage 30ias warfist. How many ww assassins have that claw or one like it? Further, not everyone plays non-ladder.

[Speederländer]

No this is simple math, I'm not wrong.

Yes you are because you ignored the actual points I raised, namely (review time):

1. You will almost never encounter anyone who goes to the trouble to put on 95% psn res or who happens to have that gear on them. Even in a dueling league it almost never happeens.
2. Someone who makes the effort to get 95% res in hell probably also made the effort to stack at least SOME res beyond that to counter lower resist items/skills. 15% extra psn res isn't a big deal to someone who bothered to get 95% total res in hell.
3. The 50% on bramble gets added FIRST to your base damage then, SECOND, it gets added again to the previous total, acting on itself in the process. So your citing of the 50% number in comparison is total spin.

[Speederländer]

Finally, Zangeif, I'm not disputing that enigma is better vs. casters. I'm disputing your numbers. Enigma is better tactically vs. many caster types because it grants much needed mobility. I don't dispute that. I use it myself. But your comments regarding venom damage vs. physical damage are off-mark or misleading.

[Zangeif]

I said bramble was better than nats, why are you still arguing that. I also said that nats will sometimes add more damage than bramble, that is also true.

Your argument of the 50% being added twice from bramble is irrelevant because if you use bramble to buff and then wear nats for the duel, you are still getting the first 50% from bramble when buffing. You only NET GAIN an additional 35%. The -15% can be more important that the +35%.

If you still dont understand - Buff with bramble for +50%. Wear nats for an additional +15/-15. Total is +65/-15.

Buff with bramble and wear bramble = +100/-0.

I think bramble is better because of the fhr, not because of the poison damage.

I do a lot of damage with mindblast, usually more than venom. I obviously don't mean in a single cast, but I often namelock mindblast them when they are far off screen many times in a row. With 65 fcr you can usually get a lot of mbs in. The damage adds up nicely since my mb is level 39.

If you, or any anyone else on this forum plays USeast NL and disagrees with me, please join me in a game to test this stuff. All these numbers are great, but I guarantee if you test it in game with me, you will see how little venom does compared to physical. OW, on the other hand, adds a ton of damage.

[Elwood]

is it just me or is it hot in here? :cyclops:

[Speederländer]

If you, or any anyone else on this forum plays USeast NL and disagrees with me, please join me in a game to test this stuff. All these numbers are great, but I guarantee if you test it in game with me, you will see how little venom does compared to physical. OW, on the other hand, adds a ton of damage.

I'm on USWest Ladder exclusively as I've stated several times recently in other threads. Feel free to peruse my history.

Further, if you max out your poison res in the 90%+ category as well as put on max PLR, of course venom damage will be low. You are expecting a fight in which venom damage is the point of it. Would you do the fight with standard gear or would you max out all your anti-poison gear just to prove that, indeed, with the exact gear poison can be nullified? I KNOW venom can be nullified. You seem to want to show what is already known. Put on 75% res and, say 25 PLR and it's a totally different story. Additionally, you brag about your uber claw in a previous post. How many people have that claw? I'm talking pretty standard equipment. The only thing I took liberty with was a 45% bramble.

How's this, you post your standard equipment. I assume your going to be wearing that enigma. You'll use that war fist. You'll use 3/20/20's, etc. What is your damage breakdown. Specifically. Physical, venom, magic, cold, light, etc. You claim level 39 mindblast. That tells me not a lot of 3/20/20's. So be clear about what your configuration is. What's your AR, DR, etc. You hint that you have this fairly unbeatable ww-sin (not including vs. ww-barbs), so lay it out. Unless it's a state secret.

Also, what is your damage, res, PLR, DR, AR, etc. when you switch into your "anti-poison" gear? Just put it on and post it. What's the gear your switching to?

I've gone through the numbers and, your assertions to the contrary, the numbers don't lie. If you really want to get to the bottom of the situation, rather than simply be belligerent, then post your stats. I'm certainly not going to start up a USEast account just to "prove a point".

[ilkori]

In Hell it takes 175 PLR to reach that 75 PLR cap. Just thought I'd toss that in.

[Zangeif]

I only post from work, so I can't tell you my stats. I use 10x GCs with 38+ life, 9 32020s and a 20 20 anni. I use either a +2sin 20fcr 20dex ~100AR shaeled circlet or a +2sin %AR on level 19str 19dex 38life 50% poison reduction circlet socketed with 40%ED jewel. If I use the fcr circlet I wear a 10fcr ring with AR and 19str so that I can still equip the rest of my gear when I lose the 19str from the AR circlet. The fcr lets me hit 65 which I use for most duels. The rest of the gear is pretty standard, I have the right gear switches for every fight. I prebuff with faceted +3 claws.

If you read my first post, you will see I didn't mention 95 res, I mentioned 75/75. I only mentioned the 95 res to put things into perspective so that you could see that sometimes -%res is more important than +%damage. This situation will not come up too often.

I never claimed I have an unbeatable ww sin. I lose, but only to top duelers. I have been outplayed on occasion like pretty much everyone else. However, I'm confident in my build, ESPECIALLY the use of enigma over bramble.

My poison res gear is 15/15 eth treks and my circlet which has 50% reduction. I don't know what gear most people wear to get 75% reduction but from what I've heard it's common for good duelers to have on a switch. I've never had to look for that mod since 50% seems fine to me along with well over 75% res. I guess I could wear venom grips too if I had room in stash.

Anyway what is the point of your argument? Are you arguing that assassins should be built to wear both bramble and enigma? If so, please explain why. If not, then what is the point? Here I will explain again why I think an asn should be built around enigma for all duels:

Out of all the duels in which bramble > enigma, only 2 of those duels are not easily winnable with enigma instead. Those 2 duels are against a ww barb and a ww sin. A decent ww barb is unbeatable even with bramble. Therefore building your assassin to be able to wear bramble only helps him win ONE duel (vs ww sin). I think it is more important be stronger against EVERY caster and weaker vs a ww sin than stronger vs a ww sin and weaker vs EVERY caster. The extra vit (and 5% max life) you save from building around enigma goes a long way. Also, the 8% DR and +2 skills on enigma allows you to save 10 skill points on fade.

If you disagree with this, tell me why.

[Speederländer]

One quick observation:

You are built around enigma, which is fine, but you have no extra sources of mana anywhere. I have 9 20/17 life/mana sc's and 6 BO CTA and I still have mana problems. You don't even have the charms. Vs. a high life fast cast bone necro (or any good caster teleporter) you're going to be teleporting like mad. Between tele and WW how can you possibly make that work w/o downing a mana pot every 20 seconds? If you don't actually wear the 3/20/20's when you are dueling against a sizeable number of duelers you need to mention that. Or at least explain the mana situation.

[Speederländer]

I only post from work, so I can't tell you my stats. I use 10x GCs with 38+ life, 9 32020s and a 20 20 anni. I use either a +2sin 20fcr 20dex ~100AR shaeled circlet or a +2sin %AR on level 19str 19dex 38life 50% poison reduction circlet socketed with 40%ED jewel. If I use the fcr circlet I wear a 10fcr ring with AR and 19str so that I can still equip the rest of my gear when I lose the 19str from the AR circlet. The fcr lets me hit 65 which I use for most duels. The rest of the gear is pretty standard, I have the right gear switches for every fight. I prebuff with faceted +3 claws.

If you read my first post, you will see I didn't mention 95 res, I mentioned 75/75. I only mentioned the 95 res to put things into perspective so that you could see that sometimes -%res is more important than +%damage. This situation will not come up too often.

I never claimed I have an unbeatable ww sin. I lose, but only to top duelers. I have been outplayed on occasion like pretty much everyone else. However, I'm confident in my build, ESPECIALLY the use of enigma over bramble.

My poison res gear is 15/15 eth treks and my circlet which has 50% reduction. I don't know what gear most people wear to get 75% reduction but from what I've heard it's common for good duelers to have on a switch. I've never had to look for that mod since 50% seems fine to me along with well over 75% res. I guess I could wear venom grips too if I had room in stash.

Anyway what is the point of your argument? Are you arguing that assassins should be built to wear both bramble and enigma? If so, please explain why. If not, then what is the point? Here I will explain again why I think an asn should be built around enigma for all duels:

Out of all the duels in which bramble > enigma, only 2 of those duels are not easily winnable with enigma instead. Those 2 duels are against a ww barb and a ww sin. A decent ww barb is unbeatable even with bramble. Therefore building your assassin to be able to wear bramble only helps him win ONE duel (vs ww sin). I think it is more important be stronger against EVERY caster and weaker vs a ww sin than stronger vs a ww sin and weaker vs EVERY caster. The extra vit (and 5% max life) you save from building around enigma goes a long way. Also, the 8% DR and +2 skills on enigma allows you to save 10 skill points on fade.

If you disagree with this, tell me why.

You are really missing the point I've been making between this thread and the other one that related to this topic, namely: Engima is recommendable as superior to bramble because it grants you much need mobility. Your argument, however, that poison damage is generally negligible is completely wrong. I use enigma for my main armor as well. That's NOT what I have been arguing against. You say things like this:

Poison damage doens't do much vs. a good dueler with high resists.

And you're just incorrect. This has been tested in DETAIL on this forum. Poison damage is massive with any reasonable pre-buff except in a VERY TINY number of special cases. I have also made an attempt to demonstrate this, with the actual numbers, how poison damage relates to physical. Except in your case of excessive poison res and high PLR, it's extremely siginificant. I have also shown that even in those cases you mention it's not negligible.

So, I don't know what you're trying to say really. Are you saying that the numbers which I am running through, and which have been hashed out in this forum dozens of times over the last year, are wrong? If so, I ask that your back that up with proof other than "come duel me to prove it".
What is your point? That enigma is better than bramble? I agree in many cases enigma IS better. I've not been arguing otherwise. My point is that making the argumment FOR ENIGMA over bramble based on the fallacious idea that poison damage from venom is insignificant anyway, is not correct.

[ilkori]

I think you both know (or should know) where the other person stands. Sometimes it is said that those who stand closest have the biggest problems with elbow room. ;)

[Naliworld]

Heated debate is fine, guys, but remember to keep it civil. I don't want any namecalling or flaming to start.

[Zangeif]

OK no reason to argue anymore. You think 127 damage is a lot, I don't think so. Difference of opinion.

Yes I drink a lot of mana pots when I duel.

[Speederländer]

OK no reason to argue anymore. You think 127 damage is a lot, I don't think so. Difference of opinion.

127 compared to your after-PVP-penalty/DR-penalty physical IS a lot. Recall, 3000 average physical damage yields 250 real damage after the penalties. 127 is a serious fraction of that number. And the 127 is the result of max res and 75 PLR. 127 is 50% of your physical damage (with a big physical damage indeed).

[lordpride]

I just wanted to put my 2 cents worth in about 15/15 nats armor. First of all takes too much str to use. Also people dont notice that poison facets actually do 37 psn damage over some length. Wasn't it already determined that psn charms negate venom? I mean other wise people would be using lots of 290s on their assassins. Anyways what i'm trying to say is besides prebuffing can't poison facets actually hurt your venom damage?

[Zangeif]

290s dont hurt venom, venom hurts 290s.

If you use venom, any other poison damage source you have is reduced to .4 seconds instead of it's listed duration. The total damage is reduced by the same percent as the poison length.

[lordpride]

290s dont hurt venom, venom hurts 290s.

If you use venom, any other poison damage source you have is reduced to .4 seconds instead of it's listed duration. The total damage is reduced by the same percent as the poison length.


how come when u have psn charms on and u cast venom it shows lower damage in the window then when u just cast venom? I understand that u say the psn damage is just reduced to the .4 sec, but why would that lower the total damage?

[skygoneblue]

Well, 290s add 11 poison over .4 sec, but I don't know why the damage would be lower. Maybe it's a display bug?

[Zangeif]

Probably a display bug. There's no reason to use 290s, but they don't hurt. Facets definately don't hurt, many ww asns socket their helms (or nats armor) with facets.