weapon for kicker

[lordpride]

ok i want to know ppl's opinions on the best kicker weapon, i've gone through many. right now i'm using doom ettin and seems to be working ok but i want to know all the best options.

[Speederländer]

ok i want to know ppl's opinions on the best kicker weapon, i've gone through many. right now i'm using doom ettin and seems to be working ok but i want to know all the best options.

Lacerator for amp is very nice. Also has ias, OW.
Chaos for the magic damage works well. Also has ias, OW, etc.
I THINK that a death's web works with venom but you need perhaps to check on that.
Fleshripper if you're on a budget.
Azurewrath works well. Fast weapon, ias, magic and cold damage. Looks sexy.

[Davie.]

Does anyone bother charging up anymore before kicking? I know Tiger strike offers amazing damage and ar...could use a fury or chaos claw for it or something like that..or is it just a waste of the 20-40 skillpoint's it'd need.

[Speederländer]

Does anyone bother charging up anymore before kicking? I know Tiger strike offers amazing damage and ar...could use a fury or chaos claw for it or something like that..or is it just a waste of the 20-40 skillpoint's it'd need.

It's a waste unless you enjoy doing it for whatever reason for PvM.

[FrozenSolid]

Hm, what about crescent moon or stormlash? Static is pretty nice imo :rolleyes:

[IN_FLAMES]

Today I saw a kicker using an eBotD war spike, and we were dueling, although she didn't win (I won like 60% of the time) She sure did give me a run.

[Speederländer]

Today I saw a kicker using an eBotD war spike, and we were dueling, although she didn't win (I won like 60% of the time) She sure did give me a run.

The only thing she gained over other decent kicker weapons was kick range, and that at the expense of all blocking. It's not a viable option.

[FrozenSolid]

The only thing she gained over other decent kicker weapons was kick range, and that at the expense of all blocking. It's not a viable option.

Heh, you prob confused it with a war pike. This assa was using ebotd war spike so she could block with her shield.
Anyway, I dont see why any kicker would use botd. Only useful mods on them are LL, ias and 30 to all attributes. Not worth it imo since there are so many better kicker weapons out there...

[SquaL]

Well i had a PvP kicksin melee only named Toxicity
Her weapon and shield was~
Weapon-Beast zerk for Fanat and other mods
Shield-1.08 40-15'd SS
Boots-+2 Shadow Dancers

I obtained max block, max'd venom, max'd dragon tail,max'd dragon flight,
max'd venom, max'd cloak of shadows

But i was pure PvP Melee

If u are going Pure Melee, Try these weapons
Beast zerk || Doom zerk || Pefect Deaths Web for -Psn res ||

If u are going up against all ( more of casters ) then 2X claws would do
Try furys, jade talons, if u can.

[Speederländer]

Heh, you prob confused it with a war pike. This assa was using ebotd war spike so she could block with her shield.
Anyway, I dont see why any kicker would use botd. Only useful mods on them are LL, ias and 30 to all attributes. Not worth it imo since there are so many better kicker weapons out there...

Yes, I did confuse the two. In any event, BotD isn't a useful kicker weapon at all.

[Speederländer]

Well i had a PvP kicksin melee only named Toxicity
Her weapon and shield was~
Weapon-Beast zerk for Fanat and other mods
Shield-1.08 40-15'd SS
Boots-+2 Shadow Dancers

I obtained max block, max'd venom, max'd dragon tail,max'd dragon flight,
max'd venom, max'd cloak of shadows

But i was pure PvP Melee

If u are going Pure Melee, Try these weapons
Beast zerk || Doom zerk || Pefect Deaths Web for -Psn res ||

If u are going up against all ( more of casters ) then 2X claws would do
Try furys, jade talons, if u can.

Cloak is something of a waste as it helps very little against high defense chars, and you should be hitting low def chars w/o it. It's a 1 pt. wonder for sure.

Fanaticism from beast is also of very limited usefulness for kickers. You get a speed boost but hitting the last BP isn't that hard with the right planning.

[Davie.]

Beast also has the best ed ur gonna be getting from a weapon for your kicks if you arent going the open wounds/defensive route. Im not quite sure how much ed a lvl 9 fanat provides though. Anyone know how much damage a shako, 160/60, ed ias storm, beast zerker, steelrends, shadow dancers wearing kicksin has with and without venom would produce?

[Speederländer]

Beast also has the best ed ur gonna be getting from a weapon for your kicks if you arent going the open wounds/defensive route. Im not quite sure how much ed a lvl 9 fanat provides though. Anyone know how much damage a shako, 160/60, ed ias storm, beast zerker, steelrends, shadow dancers wearing kicksin has with and without venom would produce?

ED from your weapon doesn't go to your kicks.

Lvl 9 fanaticism adds very little for kickers actually due to the way it's calculated in.

Physical damage pales in comparison to properly buffed venom damage in any event, even against someone with 75% psn res. It's not necessarily beneficial to pump physical damage at the expensive of items. You will almost always get more added damage out of trangs gloves over steelrends.

[Davie.]

what about someone with 75 psn resist and....deaths hand glove -_-.

[Speederländer]

what about someone with 75 psn resist and....deaths hand glove -_-.

Yes, venom is better. If you have a 2000 physical damage kick and a high level venom properly pre-buffed, venom will crush it. Assuming you are dueling in hell where most public dueling games are located. Even in nm though, it may beat it. I would have to run those numbers.

Assuming a full venom pre-buff of the following equipment (in hell):

2x +3 Shadow claws with 2 facets each <---CHEAP ITEMS
+3 shadow helm with 2 facets <---CHEAP ITEM
+3 shadow ammy <----CHEAP ITEM
arachnid for +1 <---CHEAP
2 SOJs for +2 <---CHEAP
Shadow dancers for +2 <----Still fairly inexpensive
Bramble: 45% <---More expensive but doesn't break the bank
Trangs: 25% <---CHEAP
anni for +1 <---Most decent duelers wear an anni anyway
10 shadow skill gcs for +10 <---Low life shadow charms are very inexpensive
Battle Cry from CTA for +1 <---A 2 BO CTA will go for less than the rune cost
Venom skill points (raw) = 20

Total venom skill level = 49

At level 49, venom base damage is 1390 to 1410, or an average of 1400 venom damage over .4 seconds with a skill duration of 5 minutes 12 seconds

1400 venom subject to:
bramble: 45%
trangs: 25%
facets: 30%

Yields: 100% bonus, or 2800 venom damage over .4 seconds

Now, the actual venom damage in hell is subject to the -100% PLR penalty, resulting in: 5600 venom damage over .8 seconds

So, now we have 5600 damage per hit occuring over .8 seconds.

Next, the bramble and trangs stay on after equipment change-out. This means we get double application on their poison mods yielding:
5600 x 1.70 = 9520 damage over .8 seconds

9520 subject to the 1/6 pvp penalty yields: 1586.6 actual PvP damage per application.

So, the PvP damage values run (per application):
0% target psn res: 1586
25% target psn res: 1190
50% target psn res: 793
75% target psn res: 396

On the flip side, if I have 2000 physical kick damage (a very high number), this yields 333 PvP damage at zero target DR. With target wearing 50% DR, physical damage per kick is 167.

Note the difference.

Next, assume our target has 75% res (85% stacked) and we are in dueling in hell. Further, assume we are using a 50% death's web which reduces target psn res by 50%.

This means we have 85% - 50% = 35% psn res.

Thus, the damage per application in this case will be: 1031 per .8 seconds

That's real PvP damage done to a target with 75% res, an extra 10% stacked res, in hell.

So, if we have a target with 75(85) psn res and 50 DR, the damage breakdown for the above situation is:
PvP poison damage: 1031
PvP physical damage: 167

Big, big difference. And that's with 2000 physical damage kick. No slouch by any stretch. And even less of a slouch considering that the target can have 85% res for this case. Even if the target had 100% total psn res in hell, our numbers become:
PvP poison damage: 515
PvP physical damage: 167

Consider the situation where the target is wearing 75% psn res, has 100 psn res above 75. This means that the death's web gives no help in bringing down target res. So, let's dump the web and equip a lacerator for amp.
PvP poison damage: 396
PvP physical damage: 334 (with amp active and 50% target DR)

Note that even with no death's web, 2000 physical kick damage, and amp, venom still is more damage.


Finally, consider the target wearing death's gloves. This gives them 75% psn length reduction. Note however that they have to give up whatever gloves they were wearing for these gloves.

Assume the target now has 75% psn res in hell, 50 DR, and 75% psn length reduction from death's gloves and you are NOT using death's web.

PvP poison damage: 248
PvP physical damage: 167 (assuming you aren't using lacerator and have 2K listed pysical)



So, yes. Venom beats physical damage more often than not. If you drop DR to a low value, then of course physical approaches poison in several cases. But note that poison is ALWAYS a major contender, even when the target is equiped with PLR, high psn res, etc.

[SquaL]

Yes, venom is better. If you have a 2000 physical damage kick and a high level venom properly pre-buffed, venom will crush it. Assuming you are dueling in hell where most public dueling games are located. Even in nm though, it may beat it. I would have to run those numbers.

Assuming a full venom pre-buff of the following equipment (in hell):

2x +3 Shadow claws with 2 facets each <---CHEAP ITEMS
+3 shadow helm with 2 facets <---CHEAP ITEM
+3 shadow ammy <----CHEAP ITEM
arachnid for +1 <---CHEAP
2 SOJs for +2 <---CHEAP
Shadow dancers for +2 <----Still fairly inexpensive
Bramble: 45% <---More expensive but doesn't break the bank
Trangs: 25% <---CHEAP
anni for +1 <---Most decent duelers wear an anni anyway
10 shadow skill gcs for +10 <---Low life shadow charms are very inexpensive
Battle Cry from CTA for +1 <---A 2 BO CTA will go for less than the rune cost
Venom skill points (raw) = 20

Total venom skill level = 49

At level 49, venom base damage is 1390 to 1410, or an average of 1400 venom damage over .4 seconds with a skill duration of 5 minutes 12 seconds

1400 venom subject to:
bramble: 45%
trangs: 25%
facets: 30%

Yields: 100% bonus, or 2800 venom damage over .4 seconds

Now, the actual venom damage in hell is subject to the -100% PLR penalty, resulting in: 5600 venom damage over .8 seconds

So, now we have 5600 damage per hit occuring over .8 seconds.

Next, the bramble and trangs stay on after equipment change-out. This means we get double application on their poison mods yielding:
5600 x 1.70 = 9520 damage over .8 seconds

9520 subject to the 1/6 pvp penalty yields: 1586.6 actual PvP damage per application.

So, the PvP damage values run (per application):
0% target psn res: 1586
25% target psn res: 1190
50% target psn res: 793
75% target psn res: 396

On the flip side, if I have 2000 physical kick damage (a very high number), this yields 333 PvP damage at zero target DR. With target wearing 50% DR, physical damage per kick is 167.

Note the difference.

Next, assume our target has 75% res (85% stacked) and we are in dueling in hell. Further, assume we are using a 50% death's web which reduces target psn res by 50%.

This means we have 85% - 50% = 35% psn res.

Thus, the damage per application in this case will be: 1031 per .8 seconds

That's real PvP damage done to a target with 75% res, an extra 10% stacked res, in hell.

So, if we have a target with 75(85) psn res and 50 DR, the damage breakdown for the above situation is:
PvP poison damage: 1031
PvP physical damage: 167

Big, big difference. And that's with 2000 physical damage kick. No slouch by any stretch. And even less of a slouch considering that the target can have 85% res for this case. Even if the target had 100% total psn res in hell, our numbers become:
PvP poison damage: 515
PvP physical damage: 167

Consider the situation where the target is wearing 75% psn res, has 100 psn res above 75. This means that the death's web gives no help in bringing down target res. So, let's dump the web and equip a lacerator for amp.
PvP poison damage: 396
PvP physical damage: 334 (with amp active and 50% target DR)

Note that even with no death's web, 2000 physical kick damage, and amp, venom still is more damage.


Finally, consider the target wearing death's gloves. This gives them 75% psn length reduction. Note however that they have to give up whatever gloves they were wearing for these gloves.

Assume the target now has 75% psn res in hell, 50 DR, and 75% psn length reduction from death's gloves and you are NOT using death's web.

PvP poison damage: 248
PvP physical damage: 167 (assuming you aren't using lacerator and have 2K listed pysical)



So, yes. Venom beats physical damage more often than not. If you drop DR to a low value, then of course physical approaches poison in several cases. But note that poison is ALWAYS a major contender, even when the target is equiped with PLR, high psn res, etc.

lol. lol. then again i dont waste my time that much~

[The Kiezer]

A z u r e w r a t h !

[skygoneblue]

@ Speederlander

Good job running the numbers, but you have to remember: it is a hell of a lot easier to get 2000 physical damage than it is to get a level 49 Venom with all those extra pieces of gear (Bramble, DWeb, etc).

My kicker's DFlight hits for well over 3000 physical, and my DTalon hits for at least 1500 for 7 kicks. In my opinion, Venom is best used as gravy, and not a main source of damage. Without Open Wounds and some good physical damage, Venom is just an ankle-biter.

[Speederländer]

@ Speederlander

Good job running the numbers, but you have to remember: it is a hell of a lot easier to get 2000 physical damage than it is to get a level 49 Venom with all those extra pieces of gear (Bramble, DWeb, etc).

You don't need death's web to get level 49 venom, I just threw it in. Venom still crushes 2000 physical damage without web. That's one of the points I made.

The only halfway expensive piece of gear is the bramble. Most of the dedicated duelers can at least get a hold of the major runeword items like bramble, enigma, chaos, etc. Even without bramble, however, the poison damage usually beats the physical.

My kicker's DFlight hits for well over 3000 physical, and my DTalon hits for at least 1500 for 7 kicks. In my opinion, Venom is best used as gravy, and not a main source of damage. Without Open Wounds and some good physical damage, Venom is just an ankle-biter.

Did you even examine those numbers?

Let's compare for a budget case:
1500 physical DTalon vs. 40% DR (for example) = 150 actual PvP damage per kick.

Now consider venom. Let's go NO pre-buff other than what the person is wearing, i.e. some shadow claws on switch. Basically, the exact opposite of what I say is important in the above post.
Let's say our kicker is wearing:
shako +2
mara +2
pair of shadow claws on switch +6 with a facet each for 10%
35% bramble (We'll take a total crap poison mod, which will probably go for less than rune value)
Trangs gloves for 25%
Shadow dancers +2
anni +1
10 shadow charms with no mods. (These go for P. Gems or Lems/Kos)

Total venom level with maxed venom = 43
Base venom damage at level 43 = 1190 average damage over .4 sec

Subject to 70% damage boost from bramble, trangs and 2 facets = 2023 over .4 sec

Now figure in the -100 PLR penalty in hell and we have 4046 over .8 seconds.

Now figure the double application of the bramble and the trangs = 6473 over .8 seconds

PvP damage after penalty = 1079
Against 75% res = 270 per application over .8 seconds.


Let's compare:
PvP Physical damage of 1500 physical damage talon = 150 (vs. 40 DR)
PvP Poison damage = 270 (vs. 75% poison res)

What if the target wears 85% poison res?
Poison damage = 162 (vs. 85% poison res)

It STILL beats the physical component!!

That's right, poison from venom does 1.8 times your physical damage (assuming 40% DR and 75% psn res) with basically no effort.

This has already been hashed out on this forum several times. Venom is not even in the ballpark of an "ankle-biter" as you call it. It's certainly the main source of damage in most (though not all) cases. In any event, not many people think to increase max poison res or put on PLR vs. kickers. Unless you tell them the story I just told you.


You're giving incorrect advice when you relegate venom below the other damage components available to MA sins. It's number one in all but a few cases.

As a final point, a 3000 damage DFlight is not of that great a significance. Vs. 75% block only 1 out of 4 hit. When you calculate chance to hit, that drops to 1 out of 6 to one out of 8 or worse. When you figure in DFlight's bugs in 1.10 with all the misfirings and easy interruptibility, it's even less impressive. DF is nothing more than a means from getting to your target and perhaps hitting them if you are lucky, you can't count on it.

[skygoneblue]

Well, ok, but the other thing that you aren't mentioning is Dragon Talon hitting more than once. Yes, a full dose of Venom can outshine one kick from Dragon Talon. Ok...how about 5-6 kicks from Dragon Talon?

If I am doing my math right, each Dragon Talon kick will be 3 frames long. The .4 second timer on Venom makes it 10 frames long. That is at least 3 Dragon Talon kicks in that amount of time. So, with ANY of the math that you did above, Dragon Talon does greater damage over time than Venom.

I didn't mean to come off as abrasive or condescending in my post in any way, and I apologize if I did. I just merely wanted to say that Venom, while it is great, it isn't everything.

[stevethatsmyname]

speederlander, you messed up the numbers.

Subject to 70% damage boost from bramble, trangs and 2 facets = 2023 over .4 sec

Now figure in the -100 PLR penalty in hell and we have 4046 over .8 seconds.

Now, the actual venom damage in hell is subject to the -100% PLR penalty, resulting in: 5600 venom damage over .8 seconds

So, now we have 5600 damage per hit occuring over .8 seconds.

Next, the bramble and trangs stay on after equipment change-out. This means we get double application on their poison mods yielding:
5600 x 1.70 = 9520 damage over .8 seconds

9520 subject to the 1/6 pvp penalty yields: 1586.6 actual PvP damage per application.

So, the PvP damage values run (per application):
0% target psn res: 1586
25% target psn res: 1190
50% target psn res: 793
75% target psn res: 396


Look at the bold parts. You applied the -100% hell Resist penalty when figuring final damage. THEN you calculated the damage based on 0% target resist.

The calculation should run like this:

1) figure out final damage before resistance
2) figure out target resistance based on R = r-100%
3) calculate final damage based on target resists.

Your final numbers should be 1/2 of what you stated:
-100% target psn res: 1586
0% target psn res: 793
25% target psn res: 595
50% target psn res: 396
75% target psn res: 198

75% target psn res, deaths hand: 50

Since your "1586.6 actual PvP damage per application." was based on -100% target resistance, NOT 0% target resistance.

[skygoneblue]

Good catch Steve! I didn't even notice that!

[Speederländer]

speederlander, you messed up the numbers.


Look at the bold parts. You applied the -100% hell Resist penalty when figuring final damage. THEN you calculated the damage based on 0% target resist.

The calculation should run like this:

1) figure out final damage before resistance
2) figure out target resistance based on R = r-100%
3) calculate final damage based on target resists.

Your final numbers should be 1/2 of what you stated:
-100% target psn res: 1586
0% target psn res: 793
25% target psn res: 595
50% target psn res: 396
75% target psn res: 198

75% target psn res, deaths hand: 50

Since your "1586.6 actual PvP damage per application." was based on -100% target resistance, NOT 0% target resistance.


Incorrect.

I'm not talking the -100% res penalty. There is a hidden -100% PD (poison duration penalty) in hell. Note that my calcs took the venom from .4 to .8 seconds. The actual damage is double listed over .8 seconds. This has been well discussed at this forum and extensively tested.

So my calculations are correct.

Except, I used max damage for the physical. My bad. Actual physical damage will be less. You should use average damage just as I did for venom.

As to skygoneblue's point about number of kicks, and frame rate, it actually works out so that you reset LESS than every .8 seconds on average. Most people have 75% block. So only 1 in 4 kicks hits. Then, your chance to hit lowers it even further. On average, only about 1 in 5 kicks is going to connect vs. a max block target. Your framerate issue for the venom is negligible.

[Speederländer]

To be fair, on my last statement, block rate will have an impact so the average 75% block target won't actually block 3 out of 4. My bad. Theere's enough of a miss on any kick sequence though, due to the blocks that do occur and simple missed hits, that poison largely has its chance to work as I have outlined.


And in any event, the point remains that no matter how you try to spin it, venom damage crushes physical damage in all but those very few cases where the target is sporting max res significantly greater than 75% and/or significant PLR.

[skygoneblue]

As to skygoneblue's point about number of kicks, and frame rate, it actually works out so that you reset LESS than every .8 seconds on average. Most people have 75% block. So only 1 in 4 kicks hits. Then, your chance to hit lowers it even further. On average, only about 1 in 5 kicks is going to connect vs. a max block target. Your framerate issue for the venom is negligible.

Well, unless you have Blade Shield spining, the 1 in 4 kicks that connects is going to be the only one dealing any Venom damage. So, arguing that the framerate for kick damage is negligible hinders your Venom argument pretty significantly when you consider that 99% of your Venom doses come from kicks, and when they don't connect, neither does Venom.

[Speederländer]

Well, unless you have Blade Shield spining, the 1 in 4 kicks that connects is going to be the only one dealing any Venom damage. So, arguing that the framerate for kick damage is negligible hinders your Venom argument pretty significantly when you consider that 99% of your Venom doses come from kicks, and when they don't connect, neither does Venom.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself well enough.

By indicating that on a given sequence of kicks you don't connect more than 1 in 4 times, on average (due to block, c-t-h, etc.), I was trying to point out that venom actually has a chance to run its full duration.

On any given kick, your venom damage (if reasonably pre-buffed) will usually, though not always, outstrip your physical damage.

Seriously though, why are a few people suddenly so dead set against venom relative to other damage sources? The numbers that I posted here were run a long time ago by several forum members. This is like re-inventing the wheel. On average, venom damage is more than physical damage against a reasonably equiped opponent. It's just the truth. The numbers bear this out. Even with 75% poison res and, say, 25% PLR, the damage is WELL beyond the damage even of a 2K physical talon. If you think I have the numbers wrong, please point it out. I actually don't WANT to be wrong. If I am, I have no problem admitting it.

[skygoneblue]

Speeder -

I only responded to your post because you seemed to downplay physical damage so much in your post. I just wanted to emphasize the point that most melee assassins win because of a combination of good physical and poison damage. Venom is great, but it is not everything.

I absolutely respect all the work you did with the calculations, and I applaud you for doing them. I never meant to say that you were incorrect in any way; I just wanted to offer another point of view, that's all. :)

Peace!

[ilkori]

For my two cents: I agree that it is the combination of all the types of damage that makes kickers work. On the other hand, it's usually the venom that does most of the damage (unless it's a long fight where OW wins out, or a low level fight where physical wins out).

For the numbers, Speeder was right in his initial calculations; there is a -100% length penalty in addition to the 100% resist penalty in Hell. A lot of people don't know about this, but it is one of the reasons Assassins do so well in duels.

To be fair, on my last statement, block rate will have an impact so the average 75% block target won't actually block 3 out of 4. My bad.It was my understanding that the blocking animation didn't actually prevent you from blocking; just from doing any of your own attacks. I could be wrong here, just asking for a clarification.

BTW, got that Enigma kicker build yet? ;)

[Speederländer]

BTW, got that Enigma kicker build yet? ;)

I lost a lot of stuff late in the summer and quit for a while. I'm on USWest ladder now. She's enigma and she kicks so yeah. Unfortunately I can't get a valk on ladder but no biggie. 65 fc is easy enough and not always required anyway.

I'm doing a little experimenting with the level of talon vs. the problems with being able to trap and MB in a timely manner. I also keep wanting to make her more versatile by enabling WW. Deep down I think that's a mistake but I'm still wrestling with it. I'll put together some stuff pretty soon, esp. with regards to the shadowmaster MB thingie as well as a good deal of additional stuff. Just got myself a +3 shadow/+3 venom claw for pre-buff. Now I just need one more. :uhhuh: Going for level 55 venom pre-buff with bramble, facets and trangs. It's nasty. :thumbsup:

[ilkori]

Sweet action. I think you were the first person I've run into who used Enigma + kicks; so if you still want to do that bit in my guide I haven't finished it yet. :lol:

[skygoneblue]

Well, I had the idea of using Enigma and kicks long ago...but I never patended it! :(

:lol:

[skygoneblue]

Well, I had the idea of using Enigma and kicks long ago...but I never patended it! :(

:lol:

[Trisk3lion]

Well, I had the idea of using Enigma and kicks long ago...but I never patended it! :(

:lol:

I'm building one right now :)

[skygoneblue]

I would if my PC weren't totally screwed...I have just been pondering giving my account to someone so it at least doesn't go to a total waste. :(

[skygoneblue]

Well, while we're on the subject, how are you doing your build?

I am thinking about something like this:

20 Talon
20 Flight
20 Venom
20 Fade
Rest in Shadow Master
1 in Wake of Fire, Mind Blast, Blade Shield, etc

Shako + UM
Chaos (for magic damage and Open Wounds)
Enigma Dusk
StormShield (duh)
Switch 2x +3 Shadow claws
Trangs
Arachnid's Mesh
Shadow Dancers
Mara's
Raven, BK, or nice rare with FCR

My only trouble will be getting that extra FCR to hit that last BP. I don't have any good rares, so it'll be tough, but I think it'll be worth it in the end.

I would probably go with Chaos + Bartuc or Jade against casters for the Weapon Block.

Are we on the same page? :)

[ilkori]

Might want to start a new thread for this one guys. Sorry for bringing it off topic. :lol:

[skygoneblue]

Well, then let's discuss weapons.

What do you think is better for a weapon/shield kicker: Chaos or Azure+UM ??

[Speederländer]

Well, then let's discuss weapons.

What do you think is better for a weapon/shield kicker: Chaos or Azure+UM ??

Lacerator for 33% amp if you have high physical to begin with. It also has OW.
Death's Web for huge target psn res drop if you have high venom and the target isn't stacking.
Both assuming claw/shield.

[skygoneblue]

Well, most duelers consider Amp Damage bad manners, but point taken nonetheless.

Death's Web is interesting. To me, the only truly redeeming quality of it is the -poison resist. Everything else is just mediocre at best. +2 skills is cool, but Bartucs and a million other weapons give that as well. However, if you're basing your build on poison, I guess it can't hurt.

[Speederländer]

Well, most duelers consider Amp Damage bad manners, but point taken nonetheless.

They should NOT consider amp BM on a kicker in any event. It's certainly not BM compared to fully synergized bone spirit or spear at 125 fc, or Pally conviction with massive FoH damage (plus LR gear) or FB sorcs with lower res gear, etc. etc. etc.. The lacerator is YOUR lower res gear, for physical, so to speak. In 1.10, no one should complain about amp on a kicker.

[stevethatsmyname]

OY sorry speeder i was wrong. Didnt know about that duration penalty.

[skygoneblue]

They should NOT consider amp BM on a kicker in any event. It's certainly not BM compared to fully synergized bone spirit or spear at 125 fc, or Pally conviction with massive FoH damage (plus LR gear) or FB sorcs with lower res gear, etc. etc. etc.. The lacerator is YOUR lower res gear, for physical, so to speak. In 1.10, no one should complain about amp on a kicker.

Dude, people whine about Mind Blast for god's sake. I guarantee they will whine about Amplify Damage!

But anyway, aside from that, Lacerator is a -40 weapon for all practical purposes. That means that you would need another 23 IAS
on your gear to hit the last DTalon breakpoint (-63), and you can't Shael a throwing weapon! :(

So, for a Fade kicker, I think Lacerator is a bit out of the question unless you want to base all of your gear around IAS.
I suppose the same goes for Death's Web then as well (even though it IS Shael-able).

If I am doing the math right, a Shael-ed Azurewrath and Chaos in a Runic Talons would both hit that last DTalon breakpoint without any
extra IAS from your gear.

[ilkori]

:cheesy:

The most important bp is the 3-frame one. If you are hitting them enough, then you can get sloppy and drop down to an 8-frame cooldown. That would be the only arguement I could see for the Lacerator with Fade.

Death's Web, Lacerator, Beast, Azurewrath, Doom, and Wizzy are the only weapons I have seriously heard being used with W/S. Death's for poison, Lacerator for big physical, Doom for slow, Wizzy for Enigma, and everything else for whatever people use stuff for. Chaos just doesn't compare with Azure in terms of damage. Unfortunately half of these are considered BM to most duelers, or outlawed for other reasons.

If I am doing the math right, a Shael-ed Azurewrath and Chaos in a Runic Talons would both hit that last DTalon breakpoint without any extra IAS from your gear.You need 50 IAS with a -30 weapon in order to hit the last bp. Chaos needs another 15 from somewhere, but the Shael'd Azurewrath does make it. If you have a Fanat pally in your party somewhere, then you can use just about anything. :thumbsup:

[Speederländer]

Dude, people whine about Mind Blast for god's sake. I guarantee they will whine about Amplify Damage!

But anyway, aside from that, Lacerator is a -40 weapon for all practical purposes. That means that you would need another 23 IAS
on your gear to hit the last DTalon breakpoint (-63), and you can't Shael a throwing weapon! :(

So, for a Fade kicker, I think Lacerator is a bit out of the question unless you want to base all of your gear around IAS.
I suppose the same goes for Death's Web then as well (even though it IS Shael-able).

If I am doing the math right, a Shael-ed Azurewrath and Chaos in a Runic Talons would both hit that last DTalon breakpoint without any
extra IAS from your gear.


If you go weapon/shield, you should be able to use BoS. You use a lacerator vs. melee. Or the death's web, also vs. melee. If your anti-caster, you go claw-claw. If I go weapon/shield vs. an elemental melee opponent (light zon for example), I have a talon in my stash that allows me to hit the breakpoint with fade. It's just a simple equipment change.

[Speederländer]

Dude, people whine about Mind Blast for god's sake. I guarantee they will whine about Amplify Damage!

So what? People whine about one-hit-kill hammers but do pallys stop using them? Do people expect pallys to stop using them? People whine about doom, and overpowered bone spear/spirit (esp. when powered by marrows) at 125 fc and many many other things. There's lots of whining all over bnet. If your opponent can't cut it vs. a kick assassin with amp, they need to improve their dueling skills and/or equipment.

[Naliworld]

But anyway, aside from that, Lacerator is a -40 weapon for all practical purposes. That means that you would need another 23 IAS
on your gear to hit the last DTalon breakpoint (-63), and you can't Shael a throwing weapon! :(

Only WW speed breaks work like that. You have to use the IAS --> EIAS conversion formula to show IAS's effect on the WSM for all other attacks. Lacerator is more like a a -34 WSM weapon(you shouldn't use this number as the weapon's effective WSM, though, as more IAS will encounter more diminshing returns).

And, for the Lacerator to reach the -63 breakpoint, it would need 39% additional IAS(29 EIAS) on top of the 30% it already has.

[skygoneblue]

So, with a point in Burst of Speed and Andariel's, I should be able to hit the last BP, right?

[Naliworld]

Yes.

Naliworld