View Full Version : the best char to kill hammerdin
ariel-ilove
21-11-2004, 03:37
i want to build a char can handle hammerdin , plz help
The only "worthy" hammerdins Pvp wise are using Enigmas....and seriously.. they aren't even WoRTHY of dueling still. Maybe because im super rich is the reason why they aren't a challenge ( Which i doubt because below avg. geared casters can easily dispatch 'em). I've only dueled 2 worthy hammerdins out of thousands, Both used Autoaim ( the obvious reason.. )
They still never beat me.
If you're melee, they will most likely throw 2-3 hammers in 1 spot, then tele and repeat, or surround themselves with a flurry of them. Usually good WW tank barbs can take 'em out.
Going as casters, they are a piece of cake. Don't go aggressive on these. Stay back and fire away. That way they will have no choice but to tele on u and hammer. If you're aggresive, they will create "traps" of hammers.
Bone necros, Blizzard or FB sorcs, Trapsins, and FoH prove most effective.
Altho basically any caster can give you an easy victory :winner:
You haven't dueled any good Hammerdins than...good ones will Desynch way over half the time and rarely use Telelock or the Hammerfield. Desynch is when you can't see the Hammerdin so it's really scary and Hammers are basicaly invisble so you just have to rely on lucky when you're being Desynched. No WW Barb can outtank a Hammerdin and win...hmm 2.66K PvP Irrisistable damage...coming at 9 Frames...you can't take that for too long.
ariel-ilove
21-11-2004, 04:37
my ww baba not bad but good hammerdin will teleport to me and cast hammer,i will ww when he tele , but good def hammerdin not easy to beat,but i want to build the most effective char to kill him , bone necro ? bowazon? or?? anymore idea??
For Pubbies...you will rarely, rarely, rarely meet a good Hammerdin...most just make fields...but some might even Telelock <-- :surprise: :surprise: :lol: . Bowzons...Fball Sorcs....Blizz Sorcs...Trappers...Bone Necs...Windys come to the top of my head for Pubby Hammerdin killing chars.
Yes godly tank barbs can take out hammerdins, for I know since i've had a double eth botd cb Ww tele barb.
Eth botds - 402% + 396% \
Most importance here ^^
30X32020s + 9X290s + 1 Anni /
Got rid of him altho. 32020s and 290s were disappearing on me..so i traded all his charms for more char expenses ( thank God i did, only 7-8 were gone on me) without his 32020s and 290s, i didn't want to go any further with him...didn't seem complete, and without the charms he's not babapk material to me.
Anyway most hammerdins surrounded their flurry of hammers, or teled back and used Trap tactics. I came with a tele followed by a ww. The massive life can take some hits.
They aren't the best in dueling hammerdins tho. So bone necro or Trapsin it up.
Fire-Elemtal-Druid.
I use armageddon in case they tele in and then run if they do. If they just spam hammers around them I open volcano under them. Or Fissure if you'r using it. Piece of cake.
Best Barb can take 3 hits max...you can't touch a Hammerdin easily...75% block with 18k+Def...takes a while. Plus when you're WW just b/c you don't mid-WW doesn't mean you don't take damage. Their attack is uninterruptable.
SquaL, you can't hold two 2-handed weapons
insane_knights
21-11-2004, 07:56
hybroi cb = 1 hand for a barb. Its okey we all make Mistakes.
A good hammerdin is very hard to beat. Best bet is a bone necro or godly sorc. The problem with good skilled hammerdins is that they know how to incorporate charge while dysncing hammers. Hammer fields and 9 k dmg charge is death. Casters dont work well because they can just sorb and stack. If its a good hammerdin it will definelty sorb and stack.
Ww barbs just cannot beat a good skilled hammerdin imo unless they ww barb has extremly quick reflexes, the most godly equip, and abuses ow on a widowmaker like no tommarow.
Most hammer pallys dont get that much def, and even if they did, 20k+ is easily obtainable with botd+beast.
15-18k ar is sufficient vs good hammerdins.
With a barb its a quite easy duel if you know how to play defensive which isn't hard.
WW downwards or in any direction quickly(before they can cast) if they tele on top of you. Leap around occassionally to get a FHR on the pally then follow up with tele+ww.
Pally usually dies in 2 hits, good ones 3, top ones 4-5 using duel wield botd+beast.
Want to make it even easier? Throw in a widowmaker and the pally's chances are even slimmer of beating a defensive duel wield 6k+life 15k+ ar tele ww barb.
Also any ranged build can take out a hammer pally as long as you don't run into desynced hammers and if you can tele constantly. However, builds like windy's, necros, and bowazons are the best for killing hammerdins since their attack is unresistble.
Cheapest hammerdin killer: bowazon.
My 0 charm zon using just gores/dracs/cats/cruel mat beat a couple of 125%fcr, max block, max dr, 3-4k life hammer pallys pretty easily. Good thing most don't know that they have a skill called charge and that smite might actually help.
Edit:
Insane, its very posssible to beat a very good hammerdin with a ww barb with or without a widowmaker.
most are dumb and have no block/def
1 bite from rabies, wait 5 seconds..dead
aznbboi16
21-11-2004, 08:52
Most are actually cookie cutters with relatively decent defense and good resists. One bite from rabies won't kill a hammerdin unless he's really bad.
Your best bet is a ranged character which cannot be absorbed, such as a bone necro or bowazon.
Sometimes you can actually tele under the dumb hammerdins and zerk them with a barb. The dumb ones don't know about the little space there and try to tank. I love those hammerdins.
Most hammerdins in pubbies suck. Period. I have a hammer/charge pally myself, and he does surprisingly well. I only have 75% fcr and 12k hammers.. but the fun part is the 9.7k charge (10k soon), 18k ar, and the max block. Casters and zons are a cakewalk with charge and desynched hammers. WW barbs just eat desynched hammers or do stupid crap like tele into a hammer field.
- Ter
ariel-ilove
21-11-2004, 09:21
if i use window maker what item should socket in it? why use window maker ?? is the guide arrow??
Hmm. 5wolves+windy+namelock hammerdin works pretty well for me. If they are just standing still spamming, you can teleport directly beneath them(do Not namelock) and you will be in their blind spot. Alternatively, just tele on them with 5 wolves and they should die well before you. Good desynchers are different. I usually just spam and tele back in a hammer-free zone as they chase me. Always keep 5 wolves and oak up in case you tele on invis ones.
Ww sin can do very well against hammerdin as well. I just threw stars at them until they chased me, and then just ww shortly down. Repeat as necessary. Don't forget to use BoS so you can quickly get out of range.
Gfighter88
21-11-2004, 14:43
i have a foher and he always owns hammerdins dont care who eventually i figure there stradegy and i own them most likely 4/8 or so all i do is have conviction and charge handy. so if the tele at me i charge away and foh them simple easy build and fun owns most chars like sorcs and melee chars but windys is a diff question lol :buddies:
Best Barb can take 3 hits max...you can't touch a Hammerdin easily...75% block with 18k+Def...takes a while. Plus when you're WW just b/c you don't mid-WW doesn't mean you don't take damage. Their attack is uninterruptable.
SquaL, you can't hold two 2-handed weapons
Are you an idiot? Barbs CAN hold 2 eth botd cbs (aka collossus blade)
But nice try with the comeback kid. Bravo~
UndeadBehlial
21-11-2004, 15:11
I agree with like FoH, but if the hammerdin is anygood, they'll have some resists haha. Basically think what can take a hammer and survive. I think a good necro can whoop some booty here, if you have enigma and they do, then you SHOULD win. My necro can take 1 hammer before the next becomes fatal. I beat one guy 2 out of 3 because he was tlakin trash. I actually beat him 3 out of 4, but he died then i died AFTER him because i didnt care about dodging hammers anymore, so he whined about it being a tie. oh well.
My bad, what was the second part for?
@Luis If a Barb can use Widowmaker, couldn't a Hammerdin also? With 1 point into Fanat a Pally would shoot faster than a Barb...
Not all Hammerdins play defensive...like me :howdy:. I go on the offensive...I always start by trying to Telelock but if that doesn't work I'll start Desynching...4-5 HITS will kill a top Hammerdin, but it will take about 20 tries because of 75% block.
1-2 Charges will take out a Bowzon anyday. Especially goods ones becuase they tend to put alot of points into Dex...
You can stack against the FoHer to make him do nothing. If you want to Charge and run away I can sit in my Hammer field all day
I feel the heat -_-
@Luis If a Barb can use Widowmaker, couldn't a Hammerdin also? With 1 point into Fanat a Pally would shoot faster than a Barb...
Not all Hammerdins play defensive...like me :howdy:. I go on the offensive...I always start by trying to Telelock but if that doesn't work I'll start Desynching...4-5 HITS will kill a top Hammerdin, but it will take about 20 tries because of 75% block.
A barb should out tank a pally using conc in a widowvswidow duel. Most hammerdins don't have a point in fanat, and even 1 point wouldn't outdo the life a barb has, not to mention all the max dmg charms. Also, a barb doesn't need cta to use battle orders. A pally does, so his life is even lower than normal. If that isn't enough advantage for barb, he doesn't need to use caster gloves either, which leaves space for dracs for OW and lifetap.
Either way the odds of a hammerdin carrying around a widowmaker, when he could be using cta are Very slim.
Max block isn't as helpful as it sounds against a dual wielder. Basically, the first weapon will hit, be blocked, and then the second one cannot be blocked because there is block recovery time. Very rarely will a single ww from a dual wielder not get at least one hit if not more. If the barb gets triangle whirls going good, its over for pally. Hard to cast hammers(or anything for that matter) when you are being constantly put into block and fhr.
insane_knights
21-11-2004, 17:44
Luis if you dont have a widowmaker imo winning is hard. If a barb plays defensivly its much easier to win because often you can force the pallys to make mistakes. The problem is what if the hammerdin plays defensivly? Imo playing off agianst a skilled dysnc hammerdin is quite hard. But then agian your skillz may be ROXORS :thumbsup:.
Sometime you find both hammerdin and barb playing defensivly. Its like a shouting match where nothing gets done :grrr:
Rauth often people will keep the widow in stash. They bo then run back and switch. Thats what barbs do also cause of their warcry wepeons.
Rauth often people will keep the widow in stash. They bo then run back and switch. Thats what barbs do also cause of their warcry wepeons.
Go into 10 public duel games and ask how many people have widow in stash(1/100). Then ask any hammerdins you see if they would go back to town after boing and switch back EVERY single time they died(1/10000000). Barbs could get away with it since their bo lasts a long time, but anyone else will probably just get sick of it and either go no widow, or no cta. Try it for yourself it you don't believe me. :)
widow maker sucks for everyone
But it just makes hammerdins easier to kill than they already are.
When I use it, I usually don't swtich in wc weps whenver i die. Lose of like 500-700 life but the stash takes too long to get to.
And even then its not hard to beat a hammerdin with a duel wield barb with decent stats, even desync hammers. Just don't lock yourself in a small area, run around across the map and you'll rarely get hit by desynced hammers.
Dunno about that blocking thing rauth, I've gotten alot of no hit ww's through alot of hammerdins.
Widowmaker pally? Most don't own a widowmaker, too much hassel to constantly switch it in for cta, and if you get hit with it on = gg.
Defensive hammerdins should be quite easy for any duel wield barb. IMO only very aggressive 4k life max block hammerdins have a chance.
Hmm. Doesn't holy shield give 2frame blocking or something? That might be why. I've read somewhere that ww hits at 4 frames, so 2 frames might be fast enough to bypass that. Either way, dual wielding give you 1.5 times as many hits if I remember right.
A barb can tank hits from hammers with widow out just as well as with main weps. A pally can't tank hits from barb with widow out.
Basically...a top Hammerdin is 1/xxxxxx(etc).
I am an offensive Hammerdin /w almost 4k Life :lol: .
The Hammerdin could just as easily Charge+Vigor away faster than the arrows travel.
The Hammerdin can also play cheap...equip a I THINK, Malice Runeword, Charge and run...oh yeah, 100% OW. :thumbsup:
charging at a ww barb is suicide.
Charge+vigor means you're not casting hammers, meaning you're open for an attack.
Just namelock+tele ww or if you can't, just do a long ww in the general direction the pally is moving and theres a good chance you'll connect.
LostPhoenix
22-11-2004, 05:45
WWsin, Kicker, or Singer
Most hammerdins wear the same thing and severly lack FHR. Sins can lock up a hammerdin with WoF, and Singers can just stun them to death.
Hammerdins or mages work...
Blizzards and frozen orbs are what I have the most trouble with. AA blizzard is really tough to beat as you get one-shot-killed from offscreen. Orbs can be tough because the smart ones will fire a random one and then tele away. They are hard to charge without eating an orb. On the other hand their short ranged attack forces them to play more effectively. And if I were more BM I could simply absorb the orb and be done with it.
It takes a very well equipped barb to be a threat. They have to have big weapons and attack rating or else you can just stand there and bash them with hammers. Polearm wielding barbs are the most difficult because of the long range of their WW. It seems to cover about 1/4 of the screen and they can clip you from out of hammer range. I wouldn't think this was as good versus other builds though because you cannot swap in a shield. The axe barbs do ok but seem to have lots of trouble with desync. Most don't have the mana to do the many random untargetted short-medium whirls to hit where you might be on the screen by the time they get their updates.
Necros also do ok. For the most part bone spirits are too slow and easy to avoid. They do desync though so it's unwise to run back and forth through a field of them. To many of them will stand in one place and spam spells making for an easy drive-by. The hardest necros to kill are the ones that use the minion-stacking bug with a large number of revives. You can teleport through a hammer field without getting scratched as the hammers don't pierce the stack. However if you stand still for long the mobs will diffuse and then you'll get whacked.
Bow zons do alright because of their big bow damage and the evasion skills. They lack mobility though and once you get them on the run they have a difficult time stopping to shoot arrows at you. They generally win by sniping at you when you aren't looking and thus starting the duel with you at 50% life. If you initiate the encounter by charging them from off of the mini-map they have a really hard time winning.
Wind druids can be hard if they use the minion stacking bug and just name lock you. It appears that with good gear you can simply namelock tele/hammer them or vice versa. However most of them play really defensively after you set them up with a good hammer field once or twice. Rauth unhostiled me after I hit him with a desynced hammer...
Kickers? I could go get a sandwich and come back to right-click them with my mouse for the win. They're aweful and the only reason I would recommend one is because they are cheap to try out. Shout barbs don't seem scary either. The stun doesn't last long enough and has a short range. If you just stand there and trade attacks the hammers win. WWsins are ok but don't seem any better than the barbs.
Olio
Luis the Barb will almost always get hit if it tries to attack a Hammerdin when the Hammerdin has a Hammer field up. 2-3 hits and the Barb is dead.
What does that have to do with anything?
The point is to not get hit.
ww barb>hammerdin IMO.
Olio:
polearms are inferior to duel wielding botd/beast. And range 5 isn't that far, if you get hit by a ww outside your hammerfield its probably lag/desync.
Barb run out of mana? Mana pot? Bm? Tell me how many hammerdins stand any chance vs a defensive barb without potting, you could use meditation all day but then thats pretty bm since it heals life pretty fast.
Even then, with 2 ravens my barb has around 500 mana so I can ww alot of times, on top of that I rarely tele vs a hammerdin.
Why a duel wield barb beats a hammerdin, especially if a widowmaker is used:
1)Take into account that a bowazon beats hammerdins pretty easily unless they combine alot of charging--desync. Charge a GA shooting barb and you'll get owned by a high dmg, multihitting ww.
2)Sure desync can kill good, but its easily avoided by NOT limiting yourself to a secluded area, thus allowing inv hammers to go away.
3)if the pally teles ontop of you just ww away, preferably downward, but from my experiences, you will rarely get hit ww-ing in any direction except right were the hammers are spawned.
4)This leaves the pally with 2 options: tele+spam hammerfields or charge desync+hammer fields. Without a widowmaker, this is still beatable but a much longer duel since both are playing defensive. If the barb has a widowmaker, the pally is forced to try to tele on or near you to hit you rather than making fields around you. This leaves them vulnerable to ww, which is usually a 2-3 hit kill on high life hammerdins. Why widowmaker makes them play offensive: OW + lifetap + low dmg will eventually hurt, also hurts people's pride losing to a bowbarb :P .
Rauth unhostiled me after I hit him with a desynced hammer...
The hell? I don't recall unhosting anyone ever(aside from friends, or fohers to be nice). If someone manages to beat me, I don't unhost them, I keep dueling them as long as they stay. Ask anyone that has dueled me, which obviously you haven't or you would know~
Your char name and account? Seems that we need to clear this up unless you're confusing me with someone else :)
olio take it from a guy that had a pretty good mage pally.. blizzard sorcs and orbers are the least of your problems. a trapper with fcr can do wonders to a hammerdin. of course that is unless you decide to absorb. the notion on bowzosn are wrong. 6k ga bowzon with 3k lite bolt and c,ow,ds isnt a laughing matter :P ive pelted hammerdins back and forth charge or tele with my zon.
dont think youve dueled rauth before. you prolly dueled "rauthtrickle" not "rauthstorm" the first is merely just an imatation version that i made up with my imagination. hes not the type of guy to unhostile you. always up for a challange and stubborn as a mule, you kill him and he will vow sweet vengance. i musta pwnt him a billion times with level 9 smiter and he got mad so hostiled me during a "act1 kill andy plz" game. :(
[QUOTE=luis19
Why a duel wield barb beats a hammerdin, especially if a widowmaker is used:
1)Take into account that a bowazon beats hammerdins pretty easily unless they combine alot of charging--desync. Charge a GA shooting barb and you'll get owned by a high dmg, multihitting ww.
2)Sure desync can kill good, but its easily avoided by NOT limiting yourself to a secluded area, thus allowing inv hammers to go away.
3)if the pally teles ontop of you just ww away, preferably downward, but from my experiences, you will rarely get hit ww-ing in any direction except right were the hammers are spawned.
4)This leaves the pally with 2 options: tele+spam hammerfields or charge desync+hammer fields. Without a widowmaker, this is still beatable but a much longer duel since both are playing defensive. If the barb has a widowmaker, the pally is forced to try to tele on or near you to hit you rather than making fields around you. This leaves them vulnerable to ww, which is usually a 2-3 hit kill on high life hammerdins. Why widowmaker makes them play offensive: OW + lifetap + low dmg will eventually hurt, also hurts people's pride losing to a bowbarb :P .[/QUOTE]
Err...how does a Barb WW with a bow again? :lol: I know whatcha mean but if the Pally is Desynching the Barb can't see until it's too late. Plus a Barb really can't do anything if it's being charged in Bow mode, right? If I Charge with an EBotD TM then you're going to feel alot of pain.
If you're shooting GA's I'll hide somewhere if I have trouble dodging until you run outta arrows...I'll appear for a sec and then run away...but ten-minute duels are annoying.
How is Meditation BM...? Holy Freeze isn't BM on a Pally; Prayer isn't BM either...it's an inherent Skill.
But on another note, I think scrolling Barbs are the dumbest thing in the world. :idea:
David's lvl 9 hax are too much for me :(
I don't even unhost trappers, and they kill me Much easier than any hammerdin. Shadow master lag+mb+traps=nt.
In a defensive duel a hammerdin can just run around all day with meditation on and heal any life it loses from any attack. To me thats the same as potting so if someone does that I bm back.
You can't ww with a bow, thats why there's weapon switch, you press "w" and all of the sudden your main weapons, preferably botd+beast are on.
If I get charged in bow mode, I have enough life to switch back to my main weapons and eventually there's gonna be a miss then its usually death for a pally thats charging (0 def, 1/3 block).
I'd like to see you charge a ww barb with no shield and live. No I won't feel anything cause you'll die in 1 ww.
Anyways I rarely get hit while my bow is out because its usually just 1-2 shots then switch back, this is also why I won't run out of arrows, I don't shoot em all day.
On a side note, BO/BC isn't a pally's skill so is it bm? Doesn't that pretty much negate ur argument that prayer/meditation isn't bm since its an inherent skill? Healing=bm in my book, which is why I consider meditation/prayer bm. Also ask yourself this: Is using feral rage with a druid and leeching a bunch of life bm since its an inherent skill? Is using redemption bm since it is an inherent pally skill? Is using depry + clay golem on a r/w+ias dependant build bm? Speaking of inherent skills, most casterbuilds rely on 3 non-inherent skills: bo, bc, tele, which is ironic since you back that using meditation/prayer (which is basically potting but slower) is gm since its inherent yet a hammerpally relys on non-inherent skills. I could be saying "your hammerdin can only take so many hits cause your life is nearly doubled by a skill thats not inherent." To sum it up, arguing that a skill is not bm soley on the fact that it is in that build's skill tree is weak since that build uses up to 3 skills that are not in its skill tree.
i think bm is different from person to person. i dont consider cta bm if the other guy is using cta as well.. though i dont like relying on cta altogether. keke. luis wont like my idea of a new smiter pally that maxes prayer for akara no thnx pwnage. D:
I wouldn't like that build, but then again, it would probably be an easy kill for most casters and ww barbs.
Also as a sidenote, I've never faced a hammerdin in 1on1 gm dueling that used prayer/meditation vs me, and I've dueled alot of hammerdins 1on1. So I think my idea of meditation/prayer being bm is not just me.
ive actually dueled my share of good mannered hammerdins/mages that uses meditation, but it wasnt to heal, rather to regen mana. food poisoning and onion poisoning were pretty good pallys that were very skilled and used meditation "properly."
in ch where there is no tele, a pally can just charge mediate and the duel would last for countless minutes... pretty lame imo, so i know why your against prayer/meditation.
insane_knights
23-11-2004, 03:27
Hybroi charging with a ebotd tmaul is a pretty bad idea. First when you charge you have a much higher chance for them to get criticle strike on you. Also ebotd t-maul = 2 handed so no block. They just block and ww you and chances are your dead. If their really good they just anticipate your charge and ww away so when your charge hits them you actally charge into a ww.
Only time pole arm is >>>>> than duel wield is when going agianst a smiter. I have yet to find out how to beat them.
Mehatesmaphack
23-11-2004, 12:32
Why widowmaker makes them play offensive: OW + lifetap + low dmg will eventually hurt, also hurts people's pride losing to a bowbarb :P .
I dunno man. I tried using widow against 2 good hammerdins when ladder and nl meraged .I don't think my gas did much damage. I hit them with 1209432014380921 gas each duel and they didn't seem to take much damage. Plus a good hammerdin can just desynch hammer or desynch then tele hammer you when you are using your bow , 3 hammers you are dead. Also the hammerdin or liberator can put an axe on switch and punish you with desynched charge when you are on bow mode or they can just play defensively and meditate all day.It's just not worth the time,effort and risk to use widow against a godly hammerdin used by a good/defensive hammerdin player. It is quite useful against the non godly ones and the poorly played though.
Luis:
It takes a good 10-15 seconds to have a full hammer field spun up. A 5 range WW only takes a few frames to perform. Thus if you're moving around alot the WW has a longer reach than the new hammer fields. It's much more difficult to set up a hammer field on a spear barb than it is on an axe barb.
Barb widowmakers are rarely a problem. They just don't do very much damage unless they are backed by a large number of poison charms. Their best use is to force a more offensive strategy. This is kind of redundant though as you cannot just stand there with the hammer button down and expect to win. You'll get tele-whirled or they will simply teleport to your blind spot and melee you to death if you did that.
I use meditation with one point in prayer, as listed in the CH rules for paladins. It regenerates my mana pool fairly quickly but not my life. I haven't had anyone complain that it's BM and it seems fairly reasonable to follow their rules.
Rauth:
It was just some random ladder public duel game a few months back. You came in, hostiled everyone, then chased me around for 20 seconds, then complained about invisible hammers and asked me to not hostile you. Noone died and it wasn't by any means a proper duel. I haven't seen you in any ladder games since then so I assume you're playing other characters or non-ladder.
dkay:
I wear a tgods and have reasonable fhr. Most trappers aren't that bad.
I just redid my character for the ladder as I finally got an enigma and wanted to fix the strength/vitality mix. He's not quite complete yet but is certainly playable. Look for me on *noobler850 or Umpossible if you want to duel.
Olio
Sigh. I have Never asked anyone to unhostile me except a few friends, and I don't appreciate lies. I hardly ever play ladder(only to play with ladder friends), but I suppose we could have met, and I do complain about invis hammers occasionaly ;). Either way, things didn't happen the way you describe, you must be confusing me with someone else or just be confused in general. I'm just not the kind of person that asks for an unhost(Very few people are). Its so....cowardly~
Soon as I get some free time to play I will message ya for duels and you can see for yourself. :)
since all of you are on west, I can't really prove my point by showing you, but if mcm gave it a better shot he probably could.
ATM I'm trying to duel all the top 10ish hammerdins (theres a charge and tele ladder, 10 in each but some people are ranked in both) on USeast NL. They are listed on d2jsp, and its pretty accurate since nearly anyone on east who is a good dueler knows what jsp is and if they want to be known/ranked people usually go there to set up duels.
So far I've only gotten to duel the 7th ranked hammerdin and out of all our duels over bout a month, I've won around 7/10.
Olio, range helps but 2 handers have crap damage compared to using duel wield, and lose stats from a second weapon such as a beast.
The point of widowmaker IS NOT to do physical damage, its for the occasional ow/cb/lifetap that can trigger and it forces the pally to stop playing defensive since they will eventually die from GA's if they just make hammerfields all day and get hit alot. GA should take around ~83 life per hit if they have max dr. OW at lvl 90 would be 33.33 per second (~266 total) and CB to a 4k life pally with 50 dr is 100 dmg. Not too much in damage, but in a long duel it can eventually drain a good amount of life and if lifetap triggers the odds are stacked vs the pally.
Berzerker axe does 47.5 average damage. With two of them you will hit 1.5 times as much. Ghost spear does an average of 86.5 damage. 86.5/47.5 = 1.821. It appears that a spear would be more damaging. by about 32%. However you do lose the offhand aura(beast or doom) and the flexibility of wearing a shield. I would not think that spears were better in general because of the shield loss. However they can be better against opponents for which the shield does not matter.
I think the GA is redundant because I play offensively vs barbs anyway. I'm sure it's useful against very defensive players though. And I do admit that it hurts if you have filled your inventory with poison damage charms.
Olio
Ever try to duel a good bowazon without using charge? Notice something? Block animation/fhr keeps you from teleing when you want to. Yet another reason why widowmaker is good vs hammerdins. A couple of OW/CB's will also drain your life, and when a duel consist of shooting 100ish arrows, 35% OW, 15% CB, and 5% lifetap are bound to cast.
Aldragon
24-11-2004, 12:04
Bah I wish all the old guys were still arround.
Good Liberator(charge/hammerdin) with good equip in stash is >>> all chars for a very simple reason: no absorb and the max pvp damage( without absorb) a char can get.
Good wind druids can sometimes take liberators as good bone necros can but ww babas and all the other casters, melee etc are somewhat easier.
Aldragon
Ah also for the guys that say widowmaker is useless try a hoyfreezeadin sinergized with a widowmaker on switch againt all melee chars (obviously with a lot of practice) and plz tell me if widowmaker is useless.
Bakerking31
24-11-2004, 14:05
Comming from a 96 hammerdin on ladder, this is what i have faced that kills me
first: a good bone necro can kill a good hammerdin any day. end of story. I also have a 89 bone necro and i can kill any hammerdin, and my hammerdin gets killed by bone necros alot.
second: Good wind druid can sometimes beat a good hammerdin, the druid has to be really good though, one of my friends plays a wind druid and he kills me about 33% of the time, which against me is a accomplishment.
third: E-shield sorc can sometimes beat a good hammerdin, although if i get them sleeping its all over. Its about 50/50 against a good eshield sorc
Barbs for the most part dont stand a chance against a hammerdin. I run at 4k life with my bo on, and i think 26% dr, and i do 12k dmg with a 9 frame attack. ive only been beaten by a handfull of barbs and all were base str barbs.
sorcs for the most part will loose to a good hammerdin. although your blizz sorc will get lucky everyonce in a while and get the 2 hits it takes to kill me, its not very likely and it dosnt happen too often.
trapers: there just annoying, once they get lured outside their ring or traps there done for.
I forgot to mention, a really good charger with real high dmg can kill a hammerdin fairly easy, but it requires really good gear.
jus my 2 cents
koeraokse
24-11-2004, 16:24
I have duelled some hammerdins with my palas (zealot and chargedin)
with chargedin I charge at them from south and smite them to death, I think that the best medicine against them is the smite, especially when theres a little water at their back, so they wont be knocked back, only stunned.. :lady:
:cheesy:
*priit
Aldragon
24-11-2004, 16:34
Comming from a 96 hammerdin on ladder, this is what i have faced that kills me
first: a good bone necro can kill a good hammerdin any day. end of story. I also have a 89 bone necro and i can kill any hammerdin, and my hammerdin gets killed by bone necros alot.
second: Good wind druid can sometimes beat a good hammerdin, the druid has to be really good though, one of my friends plays a wind druid and he kills me about 33% of the time, which against me is a accomplishment.
third: E-shield sorc can sometimes beat a good hammerdin, although if i get them sleeping its all over. Its about 50/50 against a good eshield sorc
Barbs for the most part dont stand a chance against a hammerdin. I run at 4k life with my bo on, and i think 26% dr, and i do 12k dmg with a 9 frame attack. ive only been beaten by a handfull of barbs and all were base str barbs.
sorcs for the most part will loose to a good hammerdin. although your blizz sorc will get lucky everyonce in a while and get the 2 hits it takes to kill me, its not very likely and it dosnt happen too often.
trapers: there just annoying, once they get lured outside their ring or traps there done for.
I forgot to mention, a really good charger with real high dmg can kill a hammerdin fairly easy, but it requires really good gear.
jus my 2 cents
IM Glad we agree :clap:
Mooker899
24-11-2004, 16:34
14+k Hammers, and awesome Defense and it pretty much takes the cake with any Barb. Desynch Hammers and good life and the Barb's toast.
I've never seen a good Hammerdin lose to a WW-Barb.
-MoOk
Bakerking, first off your playing ladder and it looks like you have a distinct advantage over most people since you have access to highend gear which on the other hand is easily available on NL.
NL I have yet to run into a hammerdin that can beat me consistantly be in pub or private duels 1on1.
Vs liberators its basically the same for me since I can negate any chance for them to get a charge in by ww-ing whenver they get near, and you know what will happen if you try to charge a barb in ww.
14+k Hammers, and awesome Defense and it pretty much takes the cake with any Barb. Desynch Hammers and good life and the Barb's toast.
I've never seen a good Hammerdin lose to a WW-Barb.
-MoOk
Mooker, I've beaten many good hammerdins, watch me duel sometime.
I'm on west w/ a ww-barb. If any of you hammerdins want a fight msg me *mcm375.
And I'm on east nl.
*dirtydozen131
BobxSaget
Feel free to duel me so I can prove my point.
bartekwoda
24-11-2004, 21:22
Blizz sorc=dead hammerdin
fugitive alien2
25-11-2004, 02:47
this same thread gets posted over and over again. bleh.
i spent over 9 months doing almost nothing but playing a 1.10 pvp hammerdin, frequently against the best duelers on west nl, before semi-retiring. once i had perfected desynch only bone necs gave me any serious trouble, and that was mainly the ones who were smart enough to scatter bonewalls to protect themselves from desynch approach. other than one particular wind druid who used doom to slow charge, there were no other real non-hammerdin challenges (with moderate charge switch to offset GA).
skilled tele-barbs are a tougher matchup than some are saying, but i won ~95% against the best hammerdin-killer barbs on west by constantly desynching. i did not face what i would consider a skilled barb with widowmaker, but the few times i did face one in pub i had no trouble. there is some potential trouble for hammerdin there if the barb is skilled at alternating GA and ww quickly to protect from charge, but it would still be tough for barb.
all elemental is negatable, so vs trappers, sorcs, foh, etc isn't even an argument.
so answer is and always has been bone nec who uses bonewalls for protection from charge/desynch.
I use widowmaker exactly how you stated but also quick switches to guard against namelock tele + hammer.
Basically, I force the pally from playing defensive and at the same time make it a bad choice to tele on me since a good ww will take most if not all of a hammerdins like (double dmg multiple times will kill any hammerdin 1 ww).
Desync does not work well if you stay away from areas you have been in until you are sure the hammers are gone, basically you just need to utilize the entire blood moor or cp or wherever you duel. Not that hard.
I usually only get hit from either lag, the occassional IBH if I'm cornered, and say if im running and get stuck in a bunch of lakes. The last two rarely happen though.
If the pally desync, another way to counteract it is to do random ww's and by leading them in a direction and doing a ww in the opposite (prefierably after a sharpe turn). If you land a hit the pally is in trouble since charge renders them with 1/3 blocking and 0 defense and some say increased chance for critical/deadly strike.
Again if anyone wants to duel, I'll happly prove my point, I'm on USeast NL *dirtydozen131
fugitive alien2
25-11-2004, 03:30
I use widowmaker exactly how you stated but also quick switches to guard against namelock tele + hammer.
Basically, I force the pally from playing defensive and at the same time make it a bad choice to tele on me since a good ww will take most if not all of a hammerdins like (double dmg multiple times will kill any hammerdin 1 ww).
Desync does not work well if you stay away from areas you have been in until you are sure the hammers are gone, basically you just need to utilize the entire blood moor or cp or wherever you duel. Not that hard.
I usually only get hit from either lag, the occassional IBH if I'm cornered, and say if im running and get stuck in a bunch of lakes. The last two rarely happen though.
If the pally desync, another way to counteract it is to do random ww's and by leading them in a direction and doing a ww in the opposite (prefierably after a sharpe turn). If you land a hit the pally is in trouble since charge renders them with 1/3 blocking and 0 defense and some say increased chance for critical/deadly strike.
Again if anyone wants to duel, I'll happly prove my point, I'm on USeast NL *dirtydozen131
you haven't dueled a good desyncher who knows how to anticipate opponent movement and set invis hammer traps.
you don't "lead" a vigor-charging hammerdin. he leads you.
pallys maintain full block and defense while charging.
Dutchgrass
25-11-2004, 04:03
So it comes down to desynch to be able to beat good opponents with a hammerdin?
Personally I don’t think using a bug/glitch (whatever you want to call it), that makes you and/or your attacks undetectable until its too late, is a very fair way of dueling.
But that’s probably just me.
no dutch i agree 100% with you. whenever i duel others i NEVER dysync hammers (not on purpose at least) hammerdins can kill without dysync, others should learn as well.
repoarto
25-11-2004, 04:34
desync=bug
Do not exploit bug and then duel and win and make me happy.
Yes you should be making me happy :)
Pubby duels are what they are.. But i dont think that desync is Good mannered in duels?
Someone wondered that all replies in this thread.. eheh i have seen that if i reply or make thread i get.. hmm.. one answer per 3 threads/replys :D
-Arto-
I use wolves so I figure hammerdins can use desynch. Haven't lost to any desynchers lately, but they were all medium life/low dr ones so I dunno.
you haven't dueled a good desyncher who knows how to anticipate opponent movement and set invis hammer traps.
you don't "lead" a vigor-charging hammerdin. he leads you.
pallys maintain full block and defense while charging.
I have dueled good desyncers, they would beat most people in private or pubby games but me. How are they going tot hit me with desynced hammers if I'm not where the hammers are?
You said you've never dueled a barb that effectively used widowmaker right? Thats how I lead pallys, also they have to be close to attack so I just move to a different area and they have to follow.
Pallys do not maintain full block or defense in charge.
fugitive alien2
25-11-2004, 15:01
I have dueled good desyncers, they would beat most people in private or pubby games but me. How are they going tot hit me with desynced hammers if I'm not where the hammers are?
You said you've never dueled a barb that effectively used widowmaker right? Thats how I lead pallys, also they have to be close to attack so I just move to a different area and they have to follow.
Pallys do not maintain full block or defense in charge.
i had no trouble against barbs with widowmaker because the damage was so low even when ow kicked in. i also had no trouble getting off invis hammers near the barb before GA found me, so i was doing the pressing/leading most of the time even with GA chasing me. it's the same with zons except they are much tougher to hit because of dodge.
yes pallys do maintain full block/def. i have charged into vollys of multi hundreds of times always blocking or being missed by most, and countless times charged into GA blocking most. i've been ww'd while charging hundreds of times without being hit. ask in the pally forum if you want confirmation.
desynch is not bm unless you're dueling specifically in a clan or group that intentionally suppresses it. otherwise since it's for practical purposes unavoidable, using it and dealing with it is part of the pvp game at the highest level and always has been.
As a hammerdin, you are forced to follow if the barb runs away from you, otherwise you will be hammering air. You could argue that you can make the barb move by placing hammers around him, but that can be easily countered by a couple of tele's.
Bout the block/def thing on charge, I'm gonna ask in the pally forum cause I heard different.
Currently I have also dueled the 2 more of the top hammerdins on east. One of them I beat 3-0 and the other one I only had the pleasure to duel once and won. We should have dueled more though, both were good and the one I dueled three times had a good mix of desync and tele.
Dutchgrass
26-11-2004, 04:51
desynch is not bm unless you're dueling specifically in a clan or group that intentionally suppresses it. otherwise since it's for practical purposes unavoidable, using it and dealing with it is part of the pvp game at the highest level and always has been.
I don’t understand how making yourself and your attacks (which do 2k+ irresistible pvp dam already) undetectable to your opponent, is not bm. And about it being unavoidable in ‘practical purposes’ is debatable. You don’t have to charge(+vigor) around like a maniac all the time. Sure desynch happens every now and then, but to intentionally cause desynch is a different matter, in my humble opinion.
My point is that you’re using a bug to gain a clear advantage over your opponent. You’re not supposed to desynch. It’s a bit like projectiles going invisible after travelling a certain distance. It happens, it’s not supposed to, but people deal with it. That does not make it fair, however. If both players would be able to desynch, it’s a completely different matter. On the other hand, since hammer itself isn’t the greatest pvp attack skill, I suppose if your opponent doesn’t mind not seeing you or the hammers coming, it’s not that big of a deal. It’s a bit like Rauth pointed out about him using wolves for minion stacking, and then not minding a paladin using desynch.
Unfortunately there are some serious bugs and balancing problems concerning pvp, always have and always will. After every new patch new ones surface while others get fixed. Personally I try to avoid abusing bugs if possible (using bear instead of wolves, trying to not to charge too much, not spamming ibs or summoning 20+ minions on a telenec, and so on).
This will always remain a matter of opinion whether or not to (ab)use certain bugs, but it’s still a game and if both players don’t mind certain bugs to be used there isn’t a problem, I suppose.
HandofElysium
26-11-2004, 12:21
Just my input on this topic-
I think the general consensus is that a hammerdin generally has a great advantage over a ww barb and generally wins. There are exceptions to any rule especially with a barb. The problem is I think a barb to successfully beat a hammerdin is not only skill but more gear than anything else. The only barbs I can see that can consistanly beat a hammerdin are the disgustly rich with high end runewords and dupe 3/20/20. While a hammerdin doesn't need godly gear to compete. Imagine if both the barb vs pally didn't have the godly setup of high end runewords like enigma and botd, what would happen? That is why a hammerdin is so popular now because it's just such a cheap build that is so effective. Yet to have a competative barb you really need to have very expensive gear which the majority of b.net doesn't have.
Luckily I have all the highend gear :P
HandofElysium
26-11-2004, 12:27
Luckily I have all the highend gear :P
Thats why your the exception but lets get reality in here. Hammerdins generally own ww barbs.
I know that, but "most" of any class are bad duelers that lack proper gear.
And so far, I have NOT lost consistantly to ANY hammerdin, desync or tele or both, with a ww barb. This ranges from pubbies, to private duels, to some of the best hammerdins on east.
fugitive alien2
26-11-2004, 12:35
As a hammerdin, you are forced to follow if the barb runs away from you,
not follow, vigor-charge out in front and leave invis hammers in the area where you anticipate the barb is going to move to or through. barbs (or any chars for that matter) that run away are the easiest to kill.
dutch, you make my argument for me. most of the top pvp players have always exploited game bugs (09 had it's stacked frw desynch barbs, aura-stacking pallys, and as you mentioned IBS, IGA etc). these things are just part of the game, unless you and your opponent agree to try to mutually avoid them which isn't usually the case at the highest level.
HandofElysium
26-11-2004, 12:38
I know that, but "most" of any class are bad duelers that lack proper gear.
And so far, I have NOT lost consistantly to ANY hammerdin, desync or tele or both, with a ww barb. This ranges from pubbies, to private duels, to some of the best hammerdins on east.
Like I said your just one of the many ww barbs out there. I think 80% 90% ww barbs will die to a hammerdin. Besides the topic was about what is the best character to kill hammerdin which I wouldn't put a ww barb at the top of my list. A bone necro, wind druid, and a rich bowazon I would put at the top of the list before a ww barb.
If a pally tries that, I will usually see em on my screen a bit until they are desynced, and its pretty common sense not to follow a desyncer.
If I don't see the pally at all, I'll just change directions, maybe tele to aviod any stray hammers.
Leaping can also help kb if it triggers between a charge.
If a pally tries that, I will usually see em on my screen a bit until they are desynced, and its pretty common sense not to follow a desyncer.
If I don't see the pally at all, I'll just change directions, maybe tele to aviod any stray hammers.
Leaping can also help kb if it triggers between a charge.
That all sounds very good in paper but I'd like to see you do all of those tactics if...
You suddenly get a tiny lag spike
Some random spyware makes a popup for you :rant:
You don't notice since you're trying to Tele away from the Pally and Tele to a dead end where you Tele twice and you get nowhere
Or if an annoying sibling comes to tell you they've broken something of yours...
The tactics do work, as I've said and will say again, I've never lost to any hammerdin consistantly/in a series of duels.
Last few things you say are more outside disturbances and don't really apply to the actual strategy even if they can cause a win or loss.
Bakerking31
26-11-2004, 19:10
Luis19 what realm are you on? if you are west ladder i would like to duel you, i dont use desync with my pally imo it is bm, but im always up for a good challenge.
A good ES sorc can handle any Hammerdin, as long as they can tele well.
fugitive alien2
26-11-2004, 19:40
A good ES sorc can handle any Hammerdin, as long as they can tele well.
pallys like being handled by sorcs
GSXRider
26-11-2004, 20:36
I have a WWsin on USWEST S2 and I am not by any means elite in my tactics or my gear, in my opinion, but i consider my chances against hammerdins with enigma split at 50/50, no enigma would come in my favor at closer to 80/20. I just have to be patient and continue cast my cloak and blade fury. I thank god for my chaos with the blade fury skill which after is said and done i get a pretty decent 2k+ from.
I really find myself lucky here and there because I usually get frustrated and get
agressive and go after them, but dflighting into them unless they are running away is usually a no no...
I said a couple of times already that I'm US east NL and will accept any challenges.
*dirtydozen131
I'll take all you west ladder people with my windy for fun since you can't duel luis ;)
*rauthgar2
Trick is finding me on. Been playing Way too much halo lately.
I should be playing halo.
Got it like a week ago and only played it 3 times.
Bakerking31
27-11-2004, 04:21
A good ES sorc can handle any Hammerdin, as long as they can tele well.
its about 50/50, i had a good es sorc come in and own my necro and my friends druid and everyone else in the game, so i got my pally and killed her cause i got her locked and she couldnt tele away. she left game after that though
and rauth, id like to find u sometime, jus for some challenges, i can use either my necro or hammerdin, mabie my sorc, but shes mf and well ... druids should pwn sorcs, but i can kill my friends decked out druid about half the time, should be good battle.
best char to kill hammerdin is elemental druid,bowazon and bone necro because it make magic dmg no chanse hammerdins! :thanks:
All the hammerdin has to do is charge and smite the zon with hoto or wizzy and its over unless they are stupid or its some godly zon, then desynced hammers will do the trick or a weapon switch.
Just got done with 10 straight hours of halo.
Trying to beat legendary with my buddy in co op. Crazy hard :(
No mouse=nt.
@bakerking I'd like to try the hammerdin and necro, but any sorc geared toward mf wouldn't be much fun(no gcs=no damage). Not sure what your buddys doin ;)
I'd really like to duel any USeast NL hammerdin that thinks they can beat all ww barbs, seems like no one believes me, not even MHMH or mcm.
I believe you!
Now pay me 2 runes. ;)
Wtf are you talking about? I know first hand that a WW barb can beat ANY hammerdin, bm or not. It doesn't come more bm than eric's Pervert and I beat him once in three even on a **** connection and without widowmaker (though I have that now and I've been mucking around with it, and yeah it works quite nicely, even though I had to HEL rune mine..) AND I didn't even return the BM-ness by life-tap or amp charging him..
Mixed up what MHMH said with what you did.
I got the same results as you, but since I'm on cable (even though its crap), I win 3-0 vs bm/gm good/godly hammerdins.
The most annoying though are summonstack (oak+merc+grizzy(wisp)) that also use ravens and massive desync, but they are still beaten, just maybe 1-2 losses in a series or really close duels.
Without widowmaker its the same, just slower if they pally realizes they can't tele on a duel wield ww barb (i.e. defensive hammerdin).
Vs desyncers, I've found widowmaker significantly less effective (sometimes its useless since you don't have time to shoot), but vs most, getting like 10 shots off in a long duel can make a huge difference. Block animation can leave a pally vulnerable and also ow/cb/lifetap can cast.
Mehatesmaphack
30-11-2004, 01:51
Mixed up what MHMH said with what you did.
I got the same results as you, but since I'm on cable (even though its crap), I win 3-0 vs bm/gm good/godly hammerdins.
The most annoying though are summonstack (oak+merc+grizzy(wisp)) that also use ravens and massive desync, but they are still beaten, just maybe 1-2 losses in a series or really close duels.
Without widowmaker its the same, just slower if they pally realizes they can't tele on a duel wield ww barb (i.e. defensive hammerdin).
Vs desyncers, I've found widowmaker significantly less effective (sometimes its useless since you don't have time to shoot), but vs most, getting like 10 shots off in a long duel can make a huge difference. Block animation can
leave a pally vulnerable and also ow/cb/lifetap can cast.
a high level full dr,block,high def hammerdin can take 10+ wws from a dual weilder easily. The fact is that most hammerdins are some of the dumbest people on bnet(which is already a low iq population) and maybe 1/23404081204812 of them actually knows how to duel. Also it's much easier for a barb to get near optimal gear than it is for a hammerdin and most of them dont' bother using dr or high def.(some go pure vita and have no block.)
Come on west and you'll see why. I'll probably start proving my point with 6k hammers once i get cable back. Lastly a barb will not beat a defensive hammerdin that isnt' freaking weak.
a high level full dr,block,high def hammerdin can take 10+ wws from a dual weilder easily. The fact is that most hammerdins are some of the dumbest people on bnet(which is already a low iq population) and maybe 1/23404081204812 of them actually knows how to duel. Also it's much easier for a barb to get near optimal gear than it is for a hammerdin and most of them dont' bother using dr or high def.(some go pure vita and have no block.)
Come on west and you'll see why. I'll probably start proving my point with 6k hammers once i get cable back. Lastly a barb will not beat a defensive hammerdin that isnt' freaking weak.
ive actually killed some pretty good duel wielding barbs with my old mage. 5k hammers = gg :O
of course i needed to use coa for max block so my mana was low.. took pretty long but eventually got em.
Mehatesmaphack
30-11-2004, 02:25
ive actually killed some pretty good duel wielding barbs with my old mage. 5k hammers = gg :O
of course i needed to use coa for max block so my mana was low.. took pretty long but eventually got em.
your char was fairly low level and didn't have anything godly. a truely godly high level hammerdin who's equiped and built to kill melees can easily tank dual wielders all day and kill them in 3 hits. I died to you that one time because I played like a dumbass all I did was run into hammers for no reason. your foh wasn't much of a problem and it was the thing that got u killed the most.
i did get blobs 3 times.
(outta like 100;))
Mehatesmaphack
30-11-2004, 02:46
i did get blobs 3 times.
(outta like 100;))
Lol i wouldn't call that a win. Like I said ur foh wasn't too strong whenever you used it the cast delay left you wide open for tele short whirls.
the timer was a pain against smart sorcs and wwbarbs. smart ones would abuse the fact that i have a timer after i shoot off a foh. ioono why it was so weak though. thought 6k with -150 convic was decent. o wells i guess foh is pretty waek in pk :P
hopefully my new pure hammerdin can perform better (practiced with him today) 500 more life (more when i level), more def, and hopefully easier to handle :/
Mehatesmaphack
30-11-2004, 03:00
the timer was a pain against smart sorcs and wwbarbs. smart ones would abuse the fact that i have a timer after i shoot off a foh. ioono why it was so weak though. thought 6k with -150 convic was decent. o wells i guess foh is pretty waek in pk :P
hopefully my new pure hammerdin can perform better (practiced with him today) 500 more life (more when i level), more def, and hopefully easier to handle :/
your foh was that strong? maybe it was a norm game. I usually kill pub fohers before they manage to land a hit.
the first time i met you i think you made a nm game.. dunno but ya it was just about 6k.
the time i killed blobs once wasnt with you in it. it was in a pub game, we went way out away from everyone and dueled. he was lagging bad taht game though, he was just standing there some times where i got a couple hits off. ><
fugitive alien2
01-12-2004, 12:47
i did get blobs 3 times.
(outta like 100;))
beat blobs with hammerdin 37 outta 40ish without bo from cta or teleporting
beat eric's barb 12/12 or so last summer, possibly inspiring him to make bm hammerdin :lol:
luis, if i had anything decent on east you would inspire me to unretire
Its not that hard to rebuild from scratch. Thats enough to inspire u to unretire.
Mehatesmaphack
01-12-2004, 20:44
The tactics do work, as I've said and will say again, I've never lost to any hammerdin consistantly/in a series of duels.
Last few things you say are more outside disturbances and don't really apply to the actual strategy even if they can cause a win or loss.
According to you,East sorcs and necs can almost never hit your zon or any other decent zon with anything except maybe an occasional orb shard.(I'm amazed that they can't even hit you with ts.) East casters must really really suck.
fugitive alien2
01-12-2004, 20:58
Its not that hard to rebuild from scratch. Thats enough to inspire u to unretire.
nope. i have next to nothing on east
make a barb on west that might inspire me
According to you,East sorcs and necs can almost never hit your zon or any other decent zon with anything except maybe an occasional orb shard.(I'm amazed that they can't even hit you with ts.) East casters must really really suck.
Come on now, I never said that much.
I've played bowazons for a while and I know there are alot of things they can't beat ever.
BM necro > zon
"smart" necro 50/50 with a zon (aka one's that tele on top of a zon and shoot)
and a lot more.
Come on man cut me more than that, in a lot of my posts on building a pvp zon I almost always list the major weakness and how to have some chance against them.
Also aren't you an advocate of barb>all?
Fugitive:
I'll consider it, I can probably give you a good duel with some pretty cheap gear like:
arreats, duress, gores, dracs, highlords, 2 ravens, strings/dungos/arch, with a crap botd/beast or fury or duel fury or some crap like that.
Seeing how easy it was to gain wealth on east, I could probably scrap up that gear + a bunch of life/ar/max gcs/lcs/scs pretty quick.
I duel hammerdins the most out of any class with my barb so that may help explain my success vs hammerdins.
i didnt read a single thread above me. But i will reply according to the thread starter's question.
1) Bowazons can kill nec and hammerdins. But pls dont send a weak bowazon and hope will win. you can have a high damage bowazon (or use many pdscs for poisons). items like ed/ias armour, helms, ed/ias wf, bul kathos rings, ias/+2 bow gloves, gore riders, 10 bow gc or all pdscs and 1 anni sc.
2) windy. the high life of windy can tanks with hammers, just be wary of stray hammers when u tele.
3) bonemancers. this too, can proves a hit.
4) trappers. tele-ing around with mb and traps...
Mehatesmaphack
02-12-2004, 09:46
Come on now, I never said that much.
I've played bowazons for a while and I know there are alot of things they can't beat ever.
BM necro > zon
"smart" necro 50/50 with a zon (aka one's that tele on top of a zon and shoot)
and a lot more.
Come on man cut me more than that, in a lot of my posts on building a pvp zon I almost always list the major weakness and how to have some chance against them.
Also aren't you an advocate of barb>all?
Fugitive:
I'll consider it, I can probably give you a good duel with some pretty cheap gear like:
arreats, duress, gores, dracs, highlords, 2 ravens, strings/dungos/arch, with a crap botd/beast or fury or duel fury or some crap like that.
Seeing how easy it was to gain wealth on east, I could probably scrap up that gear + a bunch of life/ar/max gcs/lcs/scs pretty quick.
I duel hammerdins the most out of any class with my barb so that may help explain my success vs hammerdins.
A skilled gm block nec > all zon. They don't even need dr. There are many ways for a good necro to beat a zon. Good necros will keep the pressure on you by tele next or on top of you and spear or spirit you non stop. They can also tele ahead of you when you are desynch running and spam teeth back. 1 wave of teeth will either stun you or cause you to dodge giving them time to hit you with a spear lock or spirits. Good necs will also show up on your mini map when they are planning to do a sweep by attack thus you the speed of ga will give you no advantage. Not many necros can execute that accurately but the ones who can will give zons little chance of winning without curses,golem,oak,prison,wall,minions,slow,etc.Eter nalspirit's nec only has 18 dr and doens't use marrow bug, yet he can tank easily tank my zon and another zon at the same time easily. Even when he gets double ga locked hey can simply tele away before he takes any serious damage. Average necros are very easy to beat, they have no aim whatsoever and don't know how to avoid getting hit by gas off screen.
Eshield,block,dr sorcs can tank even more hits and they can 1 hit zons with low res easily. Ts + name lock lightning= gg 1 hitted. Fb sorcs can play just like spear necros except they tele faster, shoot faster, have more range,can 1 hit zons, and can tank more if they have eshield. My non eshield,30% block, no dr low life sorc never lost to a zon more than 50% including ones that 1-3 hitted me and if you dueled me you'd know that i play 100% offense with my fb sorc.
I don't know much about orb sorcs in 1.10 but i don't think they should have any trouble against zons. My crappy 09 and classic orb/ts sorcs killed ith zons and godly duped classic zons easily. In 1.10 ga got nerfed and orb got boosted, dont' see why they should have more trouble against zon now. Blizz sorcs are probably the worst against zons yet I don't recall losing to a zon with mine.
I never said barbs>all. With equal gear,connection,skill and build necros and hammerdins > barbs. Most necros and hammerdins aren't equiped and build to counter melees because melees generally don't stand a chance against these 2 builds. Most of them dont' have full block,they almost never have full dr and few of them know how to duel. (sad but true)
If you make them duel some of the best barbs(rich and skilled) of course they'll most likely lose.
A godly anti melee hammerdin should have 4k life, max block,dr,decent fhr, 10fps fcr,15k+ damage, and 20k ish defense. A very good hammerdin player like fugitive alien will stay desynched the entire time. As soon as you switch to you bow he will be right under your nose hitting you with invivisble hammers. It's true that the barb can avoid getting hit by teleing away but you won't be hitting anything either. Also the hammerdin isn't obligated to chase you all day long.
I can loan you most of a bvc barb setup on west, luis. I have spares of pretty much everything, except you'll have to find your own beast zerk and level your own char.
Hmm, I guess I'll give west a shot then.
MHMH:
If a necro tele's on top a zon, what difference does it make compared to shooting from a few feet away? The zon can still tank the same amount of bs's due to 60+dodge, it all comes down to how hits who, but I'd give a zon with good life the upperhand since the necro can be put in block animation and kb while the zon only dodges.
That strategy works well when combined with a golem, but like you said, GM necro and without golem theres a good chance they will lose bone armor and life before they can get near.
That strat also works with alot of sorcs, given they can tank, otherwise most will die before they can tele. This can also be countered by the zon with the use of a 7 frame bow + kb by preventing the sorc from casting.
Time to make a west acct
DragonKnight_Aka
02-12-2004, 22:34
this can go on forever :lol:
Mehatesmaphack
05-12-2004, 11:47
Hmm, I guess I'll give west a shot then.
MHMH:
If a necro tele's on top a zon, what difference does it make compared to shooting from a few feet away? The zon can still tank the same amount of bs's due to 60+dodge, it all comes down to how hits who, but I'd give a zon with good life the upperhand since the necro can be put in block animation and kb while the zon only dodges.
That strategy works well when combined with a golem, but like you said, GM necro and without golem theres a good chance they will lose bone armor and life before they can get near.
That strat also works with alot of sorcs, given they can tank, otherwise most will die before they can tele. This can also be countered by the zon with the use of a 7 frame bow + kb by preventing the sorc from casting.
Time to make a west acct
I don't know what you east zons use but there's no way for a legit zon to tank a godly necro or sorc. My 09 mule zon isn't the strongest zon ever but she's not a complete weak phuck either. she has wf,160/60,120/45.Eternalspirit's necro has only 18 dr and he didn't even have 30+ life pnb gcs until recently, yet he could easily tank both me and another decent zon at the same time. (both have him ga locked at the same time then hit and run.) When I fight him or other good block necs by myself they can just stand there all day and recast ba occasionally and they probably won't take much damage. In fact,I can't even tank them when they get life tapped. Also when a zon is dodging thens he's not shooting.
It does make a difference when the necro can catch the zon easily because zons can't tank good necros. Also if the necro is using clay golem the zon will get slowed once the necro teles on top or right next to her. Also you've probably never played sorcs at least not in 1.09. In 09 with pierce zons stun/block locked everything easily. With their fbr and fhr sorcs had to know how to tele effectively to kill zons. Good orb sorcs would tele around landing orbs on zons without getting hit. My own crappy orb/ts(I didn't even know about fhr i think i had 0 ><) had no trouble owning ith zons.
zons rely too much on luck, there's a huge difference between their min and max damage and with ds/cs taken into account their range of damage is huge. Also ga has to bypass block,dodge,etc to to damage.
I read the first page, then the last one...
I like a TeleZerker for the job. I'm sure most of us know how to use the hammerdin's "Blind spot" to our advantage. Now, I realize hammerdin's have 75% blocking if they're any good, but I also know a good zerker barb should 1-2hit a hammerdin when he lands the hits.
I'm sure I dont need to explain much here, but the idea is just teleport into his blind spot, and swing away with a 9 frame zerk, 1 hit lands, if he doesnt die, he's usually slivered, and will die in the next hit, which, at 9 frames, is really not too far away.
Thats my experience with them, except instead of being slivered, they all run chicken.. (hardcore dueler here)... My most recent hammerdin duel was my 53 vs a pretty good 62 hammerdin, did just that, he chickened in 1 hit... Maybe its easier in HC, because you only have to hit them once or they're dead or chickened... Then again, dueling hammerdins in HC is not what I could call "easier"... :xrollseye
And I realize a desynching hammerdin will beat a zerker, but it will beat most anything else as well, and in my opinion, using desynch as a strategy is pretty lame.
-Matt
darius_paul
06-12-2004, 12:16
Barbs for the most part dont stand a chance against a hammerdin.
Then you havent dueled a good barb. A good barb will give you a run for the money.
Arctickhan
16-12-2004, 06:42
Try a Blizz Sorc she's really kick ***!
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.