'Strength enough for eq' yay or nay?? (PVM 2H WW)

[rikstaker]

THREAD PICKUP (http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=270894) (Context here)

Likely ABVS:

ALSPH-Average life stolen per hit
ALSPS-Average Life stolen per second

Reference:

My level 89 IK barb- 232 strength 331 Vitality(including 8 strength from charms)

Removing charms & trading str for vit- Level 89-232 strength, 323 vitality (331-8 from charms)

Level 85 stats-232 strength & 303 vitality.(323-20: (4*5 stats))

VITA BARB LIFE MAKEUP AT LVL 85:

Start off vitality(25) Life = 55
Per level bonus till 85(85*2) = 170
Vitality core (303-25=278*4)= 1112
Charms= 80
Boots= 44
Set bonus= 150
Birdy quest (20*3)= 60
Total= 1671
After level 32 bo(prebuff) @ 128% = 3809

3S BARB (300 STR) BARB LIFE MAKEUP AT LVL 85:

Start off vitality(25) Life = 55
Per level bonus till 85(85*2) = 170
Vitality core (235-25=210*4)= 840
Charms= 80
Boots= 44
Set bonus= 150
Birdy quest (20*3)= 60
Total= 1399
After level 32 bo(prebuff) @ 128% = 3189

Note:
3S Barb setup:
300-232=68
300 str means vitality=303-68=235
300 str, vitality 235

On to damage now: (all physical)

WW level 29-174%
Mastery level 27- 158%
Might level 17-200% (level 85 mercenary)
Ed off weapon assumption; 60%
Total: 592%
+12 max from charms

Life Leech: 10%(set) + 8% (carrion)=18%..in hell=6%

VITA BARB FIRST UP: (Str multiplier-232*1.1/100=2.55)

200% Maul damage: 2188-3125
Avg:2656 (Gross-wrath+mastery=47% chance of double dmg) =2656*1.47=3905
ALSPH=234,ALSPS:1406

240% Maul damage: 2472-3523
Avg:2997 :2997*1.47=4406
ALSPH=264,ALSPS:1586

280% Maul Damage: 2765-3921
Avg:3343 :3343*1.47=4914
ALSPH=295,ALSPS:1769


3S BARB: (Str multiplier-300*1.1/100=3.3)

200% Maul damage: 2361-3373
Avg:2867 :2867*1.47=4214
ALSPH=253,ALSPS:1517

240% Maul damage: 2667-3802
Avg:3235 : 3235*1.47=4755
ALSPH=285,ALSPS:1712


280% Maul damage: 2984-4231
Avg:3608 : 3608*1.47=5303
ALSPH=318,ALSPS:1909

SUMMARY:

GROSS DAMAGE PER HIT:

200%: VITA- 3905:-: 3S-4214 = Difference: 309
240%; VITA- 4406:-: 3S-4755 = Difference: 349
280%; VITA- 4914:-: 3S-5303 = Difference: 389

DMG OUTPUT DIFFERENCE OF VITA & 3S BARBS PER SEC:

200%: 309*6=1854
240%; 349*6=2094
280%; 389*6=2334


LEECH PER HIT:

200%: VITA- 234:-: 3S-253 = Difference: 19
240%; VITA- 264:-: 3S-285 = Difference: 21
280%; VITA- 295:-: 3S-318 = Difference: 23

LEECH PER SEC:

200%: VITA- 1406:-: 3S-1517 = Difference: 111
240%; VITA- 1586:-: 3S-1712 = Difference: 126
280%; VITA- 1769:-: 3S-1909 = Difference: 140


LIFE BUFFER:

VITA BARB-3809 :-: 3S BARB-3189= Difference: 620

Taking the median 240% maul:

End equation:

620 more life buffer vs avg 349 more dmg per hit or 2094 more dmg per second & 21 more LSPH or 126 LSPS.

Draw your own conclusions.

NOTES:

I based my numbers on ik barb since the original discussion was on it which spawned the debate..Its anybody's guess that with the bigger badboy weapons like gpa, reaver etc..the difference in damage/leech numbers gapes further between the two setups. 300 strength is just the midlane between vita & titan barbs that one can take for weapons like bonehew, ikmaul & ribcracker.

With weapons like gpa/reaver strength becomes even more attractive, yes that also means titans aren't dead, they were just under a witness protection programme till players like shanksie & others built & used them to devastating effect, even in pvp :thumbsup:

Questions: (answers are subjective & based on my experience, therefore
debatable, I look forward to alternate views)

1. Is 3809 life really that crucial for survival or is 620 more life such a big deal?

ans:Quite frankly no.

2. Is 3189 life enough for hell with the ik set?

ans:Yes.

3. Whats with the-per second comparison?

ans:Whirlwind is a high requency attack, it’ll hit & deal dmg as long as enemies are in range at a fixed rate of 4 frames per attack or 6.2 attacks per second(@lwbp), so quite naturally a per second dmg/leech comparison is just another step in further analysis & to depict performance over time.

EXP:I leveled my ik barb to 89,my first 1.10 barb & the barb I spent the most time with. You might have noted earlier, I built him as a vita barb with 232 strength. I later felt that I overdid it, nothing troubles me, even gloams, I howl to disperse them & fight them one at a time. However I just couldn’t satisfy my lust for more damage. I feel I could have got by with a somewhat lower life in favour of more damage.

The ik set is pretty solid, dr & high defense, max resists it’s a brick. If you
build him well & use him well, you’d love that extra damage & hardly miss the
620 life.

4. What would you take Rik, more life or more damage/leech over time?

ans:The latter. :p

Disclaimer-

Hope you read the title & understood…My argument against the 'str enough for eq' ideal is limited to ww>pvm>2handers only. The ideal holds everywhere else for all forms of pvp & for all other skills & for wep shield & dualwielders for ww. In the thread pickup at the top, I had recommended 300 strength & I had to back that up with numbers.

Rik :strong:

[Halciet]

You have to keep in mind that several enemies are either leech immune or leech resistant, and that you actually have to land a hit for that extra damage/leech to be applied, and you're also counting on a deadly/critical strike with each. You won't neccessarily do that however, while the 620 life will be constant.

As a side note, you forgot that you start OUT at level 1, so life per level for level 85 would be 84*2. Not that it makes a real difference in this equation, but it just needed to be pointed out for future calculations you might make :)

It's a matter of opinion though; I think I'd go with the guaranteed life over the damage, since 2h barbs lack advanced defensive capabilities, but to each their own.

-Hal

[Shanksie1337]

PvM Titan all the way, if i can survive with 2k life after BO anyone can :D

imo Attack is Defense, if they are dead they can't hurt you*

*usually :)

[rikstaker]

Yes there are p.i & unleechables but they are by no means a majority or several,I know those leech numbers are raw & without reduction of leech effectiveness & physical resist variables.But apparently leech is just a sidekick to damage in the comparison but its still a factor.

620 life is merely a buffer,dmg is constant & the buffer is filled back by leech which is based on damage or potting if it is removed.You'd deal 2094 more dmg per sec,thats an avg statistical constant & that means more damage output,considerable by my standards.

D/S - C/S factor, what I call gross damage.Satistically, you are entitled to double damage hits 47% of the time & to take that into account is a step in the right direction for accurate comparison, moreover, leech is calculated on the final damage after cs/ds check if sucessful.

Life per level correction - :p

'advanced defense capabilities' have got nothing to do with 2h barbs son....we believe in inflicting pain & not hiding behind a shield. o_O

*OMG!!! runs!!!....crap!! forgets nut,comes back "eeeee!" pop! runs with nut* :lol:

Rik :strong:

[mstrnicegui]

so you're assuming 100% chance to hit? You shouldn't, since that favors your 300 str build and is an unreasonable expectation. While obviously the 300 str version would do more dmg over time, I think without considering chance to hit and physical resist, etc, you're numbers are slanted towards the str build. Sure they're not slanted by too much, but they are. In my example, I showed ik barb with even more str and more dmg w/out considering phys resist and cth, but I didn't consider dmg/sec.

Notice that as you add more str, your life pool drops significantly, while the dmg doesn't increase nearly as quickly. That means that your 300str barb is around the upper limit of the ik set's flexibility in terms of stat placement.

[Halciet]

Some more points:

Where are you getting your skill totals? I'm trying to replicate this with my character loader; with IK set, highlord's, raven, carrion, and Battle Command, I get the 29/27 ww/mastery totals, but with echoers on the swtich the warcries only come to 30.

Furthermore, I believe you are still putting a bit too much emphasis on leech. We have to keep in mind that when your bulb is full, leeching a hit does nothing; thus, if you whirl through a pack, take a couple of hits, but leech that life back in one or two swings, leech on previous/subsequent swings does nothing. Similarly, if you're doing enough damage to restore your life from a hit, extra damage doesn't matter - the extra leech isn't doing anything. Also, as Gooey mentioned, you're taking into account that the monster you hit has no physical resistance whatsoever (while virtually every enemy has some amount), which would cut down both your damage and leech. So, from your examples, you'd have to assume that:

-You're landing every hit
-Against non-resistant/immune monsters
-Who also have no physical resistance
-And your life is always below full, at a total where it would take exactly one swing on your part to refill it to maximum, and similarly that immediately following that swing or preceeding the next you receive damage that would set you back to that magic number where one hit would once again return you to full.

Regardless, here are some hard numbers from actual in-game tests to work with. Note that this just shows the base damage totals; I didn't take into account deadly/critical or multiple hits, nor did I count a might merc. There are no charms, and thus these are the raw totals you would be looking at on a level 99 barb with the IK set, 2x shaels in the maul, carrion, raven, and highlord's.

Max Vita/232 str barb

4209 Life after level 30 BO
2401-4062 damage with 27 mastery/29 whirl

300 Strength Barb:

3605 Life after level 30 BO
2575-4301 damage with 27 master, 29 whirl

So, we're looking at a difference of 604 life to 174min/239max (average bonus of 207) extra damage per hit; those are your guaranteed bonuses.

Still, it's nice that we're taking a look at this :thumbsup:

-Hal

[Taz]

I`m more like "Life - enough for survability rest in STR" in pvm - expecially ww barbs (low ED from skills + high hit rate means the ED from STR is more efective)
All barbs i built arround this ideea, i also built a vita pvm barb and the difference in killingpower was obvious over time - finally i found him too boring.
I find 3k life combined with good def (arround 20k), max or close to max rezists enough for a shieldless barb.

[rikstaker]

so you're assuming 100% chance to hit? You shouldn't, since that favors your 300 str build and is an unreasonable expectation. While obviously the 300 str version would do more dmg over time, I think without considering chance to hit and physical resist, etc, you're numbers are slanted towards the str build. Sure they're not slanted by too much, but they are.

Valid point gooey, indeed yes thats a flaw, the per second dmg/leech numbers are straight *6 multipliers without cth & physical resists as outside variables, cth varies depending on alvl/dlvl,the jewelry worn/ar & monster defense,physical resists vary depending on the monster. I therefore chose to keep it simple but that compromised accuracy. Anyway,no point taking it further..I have provided revised comparison towards the end factoring some random cth/resists numbers.

But even if they aren't slanted by too much,I'd take 300 str..(later on that)

In my example, I showed ik barb with even more str and more dmg w/out considering phys resist and cth, but I didn't consider dmg/sec.

You didnt consider cs/ds & your dmg included ele, (no leech on that) &... besides why did you? I said 300 str not 345. sigh..ol' gooey...

Notice that as you add more str, your life pool drops significantly, while the dmg doesn't increase nearly as quickly. That means that your 300str barb is around the upper limit of the ik set's flexibility in terms of stat placement.

IMO..Thats exactly where it should be ideally, precise balance of enough life & dmg. Once you attain the 'enough life for survival' (wtg Taz) you place rest into strength.

Where are you getting your skill totals? I'm trying to replicate this with my character loader; with IK set, highlord's, raven, carrion, and Battle Command, I get the 29/27 ww/mastery totals, but with echoers on the swtich the warcries only come to 30.

Gooey! (for lvl 32 cries).I have no prebuff for my ik barb.

Furthermore, I believe you are still putting a bit too much emphasis on leech. We have to keep in mind that when your bulb is full, leeching a hit does nothing; thus, if you whirl through a pack, take a couple of hits, but leech that life back in one or two swings, leech on previous/subsequent swings does nothing. Similarly, if you're doing enough damage to restore your life from a hit, extra damage doesn't matter - the extra leech isn't doing anything. Also, as Gooey mentioned, you're taking into account that the monster you hit has no physical resistance whatsoever (while virtually every enemy has some amount), which would cut down both your damage and leech. So, from your examples, you'd have to assume that:

-You're landing every hit
-Against non-resistant/immune monsters
-Who also have no physical resistance
-And your life is always below full, at a total where it would take exactly one swing on your part to refill it to maximum, and similarly that immediately following that swing or preceeding the next you receive damage that would set you back to that magic number where one hit would once again return you to full.

All those are valid points,most of those covered in Gooey section & revised calc provided later. Re.. the life level (below full/full)-lets see how 620 more life fares through the microscope:-

If life is always at full, then what is the point of having 620 more life when you can have more damage?

If life is always below full, then doesnt the higher leech, be it slightly more means, better refill rate?

in reality its neither always full nor always below full.

However,under both circumstances, 620 more life looses out to more dmg & leech, at least from where I see it.

Hal..extra damage does matter, it always does,on its own.. if we sideline leech, faster killing right? (I guess it was a phrasing error on your part,you wouldnt have said it doesnt)

Regardless, here are some hard numbers from actual in-game tests to work with. Note that this just shows the base damage totals; I didn't take into account deadly/critical or multiple hits, nor did I count a might merc. There are no charms, and thus these are the raw totals you would be looking at on a level 99 barb with the IK set, 2x shaels in the maul, carrion, raven, and highlord's.

Max Vita/232 str barb

4209 Life after level 30 BO
2401-4062 damage with 27 mastery/29 whirl

300 Strength Barb:

3605 Life after level 30 BO
2575-4301 damage with 27 master, 29 whirl

So, we're looking at a difference of 604 life to 174min/239max (average bonus of 207) extra damage per hit; those are your guaranteed bonuses. .

Come on Hal, my numbers are hard too, they perfectly align with the in-game numbers after removing prebuff, (hmm in-game...that sounds familiar)...I can provide a screenshot.

Why no might? It’s a norm & must be taken into account.

IMO, Ignoring cs/ds is a bigger statistical error then ignoring cth/physical resists, since it’s an input which is under our control & its not an outside variable like the cth/physical resists.

BTW what's the ed% of the maul in your numbers, that’s a big factor as well. Still your numbers make me choose strength.

Ok..now to factor in cth & physical resists:

Lets assume an 85% cth,which isn’t hard for ik & 30% physical resistance:

2094*85%=1780 - physical resists:1780*70%= 1246 more avg dmg per second,with target(s) in range for the duration.

Excess effective leech on it=1246*6%=75: 75*75% (assuming 75% leech effectiveness) = 56 more avg leech per second, with target(s) in range for the duration. That to me looks like drinking a semi-pot constantly in addition to the vita barb leech.

Revised equation:620 more life buffer vs avg 1246 more dmg per second & avg 56 LSPS.

I'd still take strength on these numbers or yours..heres why…

2. Is 3189 life enough for hell with the ik set?

ans: (________).

If yes=> 300 strength for more damage,if no- vita barb.

That’s enough life for me & some others folks ^^. A crucial question you both didnt answer so... what about you guys? :wink2:

wait a minute....
Still, it's nice that we're taking a look at this :thumbsup:

Hal using a yellow smilie...woot! :surprise:

@Taz:Good points too..@Shank-right..for 2h offense is defense.. yeeehaw!

Rik :strong:
-----------------
another priceless addition to my uber collection of controversial debate threads,most valuable & majestic (the manner).

[Halciet]

I did not apply deadly/critical or might because I wanted to show the guaranteed totals, rather than the optimal. Thus the reason I put "guaranteed" in bold. Furthermore, I supplied my in-game numbers to show exact totals, as I assumed you based yours on your spreadsheet.

As for the life pool, it's true that if it's always at full, the 620 is moot, though the your greater refill argument is ignoring what I said about if you already have leech to restore life to an optimal amount, more damage to leech from is pointless; i.e. if you are at 3700 of 4000 life, and you do enough damage to leech 300 life, doing even more damage doesn't increase that refill rate.

Regardless, I'm still not sure I'd take that small boost to damage per hit over the life. I'm big on survivability, and having a chance to do a bit damage per whirl doesn't constitute giving up the 620 hp buffer for me, especially when there are many places, such as act 2 and most end-game boss fights, where leech is worthless. Of course, any amount of extra damage does help with whirlwind, since it has no synergies and rather low damage in general.

-Hal

[rikstaker]

I did not apply deadly/critical or might because I wanted to show the guaranteed totals, rather than the optimal. Thus the reason I put "guaranteed" in bold. Furthermore, I supplied my in-game numbers to show exact totals, as I assumed you based yours on your spreadsheet.

1. I used the median maul ed 240%
2. I used average total damage
3. I factored c/s & d/s on the multiplier of 47% which is a guaranteed percentage, you are guaranteed double damage 47% of the time, multiplier= 1+47/100
4. I have now factored in cth & physical resists.

The first two are statistical medians/averages, far from optimal. 3rd is a guaranteed chance%, statistically warranting an inclusion.

As for the life pool, it's true that if it's always at full, the 620 is moot, though the your greater refill argument is ignoring what I said about if you already have leech to restore life to an optimal amount, more damage to leech from is pointless; i.e. if you are at 3700 of 4000 life, and you do enough damage to leech 300 life, doing even more damage doesn't increase that refill rate.

Hal, I wish I could avoid saying this,but I am afraid that’s contradictory.

You are saying more dmg to leech from is pointless if you already have enough dmg/leech to restore life to an optimal amount: 3700-4000 which is full life. So…quite simply its not more dmg/leech that is pointless in either case its more life. When you have enough damage to restore life to optima/full amounts,you can go more damage. :thumbsup:


Regardless, I'm still not sure I'd take that small boost to damage per hit over the life. I'm big on survivability, and having a chance to do a bit damage per whirl doesn't constitute giving up the 620 hp buffer for me, especially when there are many places, such as act 2 and most end-game boss fights, where leech is worthless. Of course, any amount of extra damage does help with whirlwind, since it has no synergies and rather low damage in general.

I respect your pov. In the end I guess, its about playstyle. I find 3.2k life adequate since with high defense,resists & some dr & clever cry usage only im can kill me. What I get in return is better ‘killingpower’ all throughout the game. :)

In short I feel you can always have enough life but you'd never have enough damage.

Rik :strong:

[mstrnicegui]

1. I did calculate with a 1.45 multiplier for double dmg, I just didn't show all my information. I didn't write it down, so it's lost forever now, but my info was including double dmg.
2. How I got 32 for bo: 20 base + 3 all skills full set bonus + 2 warcries from helm + 6 from 2*echoing weapons + 1 from highlords = 32.
20 + 3 = 23 + 2 = 25 + 6 = 31 + 1 = 32. Gah, I always forget to include battle command... that's an extra +1 = 33.
EDIT: HAHAHAH, no full-set bonus if you use echoing weapons, -3 = 30... silly me
3. I did 345 cause I assumed 300 str = base... dunno why... my mistake.

While, I admit that on average having more dmg is better, it's those times when you get swarmed that the extra 640 life will give you an extra 2 seconds of survival, which is often necessary.

It all depends on your play style. I'm a sloppy player, running into places without being very careful. In my case, I need all the life I can get.

Another thing to consider is the time it takes to run up to a group of monsters, where you're doing no dmg and no leech at all. In this case, the life is nice to have. Yeah and I don't agree with your comment about the vast minority of unleechables... it's called Act 2, where leechables are in the minority.

Overall, it was a good test, good thing to question. Once again, it falls to personal preference. Careful playing or gung-ho charging?

another priceless addition to my uber collection of controversial debate threads,most valuable & majestic (the manner).
This is definitely a minor controversy, if one at all. However, I'm sure it would have been had a couple of people I shall not name chimed in, even though I think they'd agree with you on this.

[Halciet]

Hal, I wish I could avoid saying this,but I am afraid that’s contradictory.

You are saying more dmg to leech from is pointless if you already have enough dmg/leech to restore life to an optimal amount: 3700-4000 which is full life. So…quite simply its not more dmg/leech that is pointless in either case its more life. When you have enough damage to restore life to optima/full amounts,you can go more damage. :thumbsup:


How is that contradictory? If you are doing enough damage to refill your bulb in a hit, then doing even more damage doesn't increase your refill rate, it only provides extra damage. My totals were showing you were AT 3700 life OF 4000 life, meaning per hit you'd need to leech 300 life; so if you hit for 3,000 physical with 10% leech, that's 300 right there. If you hit for more, say 3100 physical, then you're leeching 310, but 10 of that is going to waste. Similarly, that in no way makes the extra life useless, as the life would ensure you could take a more brutal blow than normal, and likewise give you more room for a "mishap" such as lagging/missing/ranged attackers/no leech enemies. There is nothing contradictory about that.

Secondly, the ed on the maul I tested with was 200%, since that's the natural total for the maul and I put two shaels in it. The majority of the populace is not going to put 2x ed/ias jewels in one, as those jewels are expensive and generally worth more for trading/socketing into finer items than putting in the ik set; I agree they're the best socket and fully support suggesting them, I was just being realistic on what people will usually have.

Thirdly, you're not understanding why I'm not calculating ds/cs. Ds/cs is not GUARANTEED on hit; it's guaranteed on MULTIPLE hits, a CHANCE per single hit. My totals are per single swing, whether your merc is alive or dead; per swing, that's the range you are guaranteed to hit for.

Thus the reasons for my numbers :)

-Hal

[rikstaker]

How is that contradictory? If you are doing enough damage to refill your bulb in a hit, then doing even more damage doesn't increase your refill rate, it only provides extra damage. My totals were showing you were AT 3700 life OF 4000 life, meaning per hit you'd need to leech 300 life; so if you hit for 3,000 physical with 10% leech, that's 300 right there. If you hit for more, say 3100 physical, then you're leeching 310, but 10 of that is going to waste. Similarly, that in no way makes the extra life useless, as the life would ensure you could take a more brutal blow than normal, and likewise give you more room for a "mishap" such as lagging/missing/ranged attackers/no leech enemies. There is nothing contradictory about that.

erm..I dunno maybe 'contradictory' wasn't the right word, I apologize if that sounded offensive :) , but since:

You said it yourself, if life is kept at full, 620 more is moot, but you also said...

If you have enough damage/leech to keep life at optimum level i.e refill it with leech in quick time(1-2hits) when its depleted, (3700-4000),excess leech is wasted.

Quite simply..This is just the condition in which life is kept at full(adequate dmg & leech). So.. 620 more is wasted, the way I see it.

To simplify:

Have enough damage/leech to keep life at optimum levels=> If yes I'd go more damage a.k.a more strength if no go for more life.

620 is merely an extra buffer & it isnt all that huge,I agree though with your room for mishap/unleechables point.

Besides 3.2k life seems adequate for all situations with ik & it can be more since gooey was far too economical by placing charms at just 80 life. Plain vita charms arent expensive & can be loaded up, moreover there is no stress on the inventory for resists or ar, since its ik.

Secondly, the ed on the maul I tested with was 200%, since that's the natural total for the maul and I put two shaels in it. The majority of the populace is not going to put 2x ed/ias jewels in one, as those jewels are expensive and generally worth more for trading/socketing into finer items than putting in the ik set; I agree they're the best socket and fully support suggesting them, I was just being realistic on what people will usually have.

Well, thats the economy factor,I got realgars in mine. Besides I provided numbers @all three ed rates to avoid the trap & used the median for the final equation.

Thirdly, you're not understanding why I'm not calculating ds/cs. Ds/cs is not GUARANTEED on hit; it's guaranteed on MULTIPLE hits, a CHANCE per single hit. My totals are per single swing, whether your merc is alive or dead; per swing, that's the range you are guaranteed to hit for.

Hal, I still don’t understand the reason for exclusion.

I never said cs/ds is guaranteed on hit, I said you are guaranteed the chance. There is always a 47% chance that your single hit will deal double damage, assuming it doesn't by saying its a chance or assuming it always does isn't accurate. Thats what multipliers are for, to statistically factor the %chance thereby resembling avg dmg over time. Besides I am not the first one to use those in comparisons, thats an age old practice here.

Rik :strong:

[Halciet]

No, what I'm saying is, you're factoring in your chance to do deadly strike on hit with your average damage from multiple hits per whirl. I'm factoring in what you're guaranteed to do with a single swing; as you don't have a 100% chance of triggering deadly or critical, you can't take it into account when stating the guaranteed damage of a swing. If you did, you'd have to give an "x damage per swing, y if critical" statement.

-Hal

[rikstaker]

No, what I'm saying is, you're factoring in your chance to do deadly strike on hit with your average damage from multiple hits per whirl. I'm factoring in what you're guaranteed to do with a single swing; as you don't have a 100% chance of triggering deadly or critical, you can't take it into account when stating the guaranteed damage of a swing. If you did, you'd have to give an "x damage per swing, y if critical" statement.

-Hal


To explore the importance/accuracy of factoring multipliers in single or per second hits:

VITA BARB 240% Maul damage: 2472-3523
Avg:2997

3S BARB 240% Maul damage: 2667-3802
Avg:3235

Excess avg damage: = 3235-2997= 238

47% chance of dealing double damage:

To cater to your x per per swing y if critical request:

47 hits at double damage,53 hits at normal damage (out of 100 hits):

Excess damage on 47 hits at double damage:

238*2*47= 22372

Excess damage on 53 hits at normal damage:

238*53:= 12614

Total: 22372+12614= 34986 (excess dmg on 100 hits)

85% cth: 34986*85%= 29738

30% physical resists:29738*70%= 20817=>Excess net avg damage dealt on 100 hits.
------
My earlier net excess dmg dealt per second:1246 (cth & physical resists already factored)

Per hit:1246/6=207.6

Per 100 hits: 207.6*100=20766

20766 +/- <=> 20817 (A difference of 51,possibly due to rounding)..but I’d like to account for that:

Excess avg damage per hit:238

Factoring multiplier on single hit:238*1.47=349.86

Per second:349.86*6=2099 (A difference of 5 from 2094 figure owing to rounding & alternate calc sequence)

85% cth: 2099*85%= 1784

30% physical resists:1784*70%= 1249 (Net excess per second, diff of 3 from 1246)

Per hit; 1249/6=208.166

Per 100 hits:208.166*100=

20816.6 :rounding up=>20817 = 20817 (with x if critical, y if deadly route)

I was asked to:

factor cth=.accepted. (also a chance % like cs/ds) on your & gui’s comments that it was wrong to assume 100% cth, but isn’t it wrong as well to dismiss the 47% double damage chance on a single hit? Is that fair?

Physical resists=>the first time ever that’s been requested in any dmg comparison, but still I accepted as that would render the dmg numbers even more polished.

Now with the two % reductions above, if I don’t factor in cs/ds, which is committing a statistical error detrimental to a fair comparison=> I am calling for a totally one sided comparison criteria.

Besides I think I have proved above that whether you factor c/s d/s at the hit stage, second stage or 100 hits stage, the results are always the same as you get with the 1.47 multiplier. Therefore when working out a comparison,even on single hit, the 1.47 multiplier must be accounted for. Agreed double dmg is not guaranteed, but there is a chance & it can’t be dismissed, There are ways in statistics to account for that by using multipliers & the results as I showed in the above calcs turn out 100% accurate baring some minor rounding errors.

Rik :strong:

[Halciet]

Ah, I see where we are disagreeing now. You're taking an average damage from a pool of multiple hits instead of a single one (out of 100 in this example). On a per-swing, guaranteed, damage-on-the-character-screen level, you can't add in deadly or critical, since there's no guarantee that it will trigger on your next swing; that's what my number showed - the character screen damage of a hit, which is the guaranteed damage range you'll hit in when you attack.

In my numbers, it's not handicapping the damage to ignore deadly/critical boosts when explaining this per-swing damage, as everyone knows there is a chance to deal double with those passives. That's why when people ask "how much damage do you do with your BotD berserker axe and whirlwind?" for example, you don't tell them you do 6000 average damage a swing, but rather that you do 3000. It is automatically assumed you'd do more on deadly/critical.

But assuming multiple hits, when working out the average damage you'd do per swing over time, then yes, you're correct in adding in your multiplier and arriving at your totals. But for a single instance/character screen display number (what I was working with), you couldn't factor it in. I see what you are getting at by factoring it into your equation, I'm just pointing out that that's still an average over multiple hits; a single hit total would be the display number, with statements to the extent of "doubled on critical, and before resistance is factored in."

No worries, I had to do the same thing last year when I was defending the validity of Bash as a synergy from conc; oh, the number of times I said "would add around X damage per attack, which would double on critical/deadly strikes, of course." In reality, we're calculating two different numbers - I'm giving the character screen damage of such a barb, while you're giving the average damage output over time, and in that sense, both totals are correct; we should've paid better attention and realized that sooner, lol.

-Hal

[rikstaker]

Thats pretty much settles it.

Rik :strong: