Some interesting zealot tests [Archive] - Diablo 3 & Diablo 2 Forums

Garbad_the_Weak

26-10-2004, 05:03

Hey all,

A while back I tried to mathematically determine what I consider to be the perfect paladin. I tried every setup I could think of and compared them in terms of real math, not ideas. I compared average dmg per swing, counting deadly, factored in the relative impact on % to hit vs a generic zealot (I assumed 1800 life, 23k defense, 18k ar was average). I also didn't use eth stone, eth bugged items, exile, and other nontemple/ch items.

The setup was I decided was best was:

eth dc zod
storm with cham
guilg with ed/ias
steel caripice with ed/ias
steelrends
upped gores
verd
2 angelic/ammy

Stats were roughly:

1.7k life (low b/c of weak stats)
6.5k zeal (96 dead, 60 crush)
18k ar
26k def

Although I geared this on an ineffecient pala (with far too much str/dex), he did very well, beating most of the top palas.

After losing badly to stout and the prof tho, I decided perhaps I needed to use a negra, so I setup with:

eth dc
negra cham (2/73/72 iirc)
eth valor
angelics
verd
gore
orphans helm
berber coa

stats were roughly:

1800 life
6.3k zeal (only 81 deadly tho, 25 crush)
23k ar
24k def

And the results were shocking. I went from winning most zeal duels to losing almost every duel. For example, Blert (using runemaster with 4 lo, ill let him give his stats, its strong tho) beat me 5-0 with ark, and I beat him 5-1 with steel. I had a similar change in temple and dueling other zealots.

Does this change the conventional wisdom that ark/negra is the best zealot setup? I am interested to hear what the top zealots think is the ideal setup.

As a side note, a common myth is that steel requires too much str, you lose too much life. negra/ark/coa/magnus needs 174 str to gear up while providing no str and giving ~45ish vit. steel/storm/guilg/rends needs 220 str to gear up while providing a max of 65 str, or a total loss of 20 points in vit (roughly 60 life, but a slight dmg boost).

Garbad

Liquid_Evil

26-10-2004, 05:36

That is interesting. What are you attributing your first wins to; the crushing blow, deadly, better def, or something else? What were stoutwood and the prof using?

VaL

26-10-2004, 06:07

you should ber the alma on that setup, and use the open socket on the guillame for the cham.

Stoutwood

26-10-2004, 07:43

I said this before and I'll say it again. There is no ideal setup. A Zealot needs to adapt his gear as his opponents change.

ROMVS

26-10-2004, 08:25

:idea: Maybe the question should be: what is the most optimized pally which maximizes vita, ar, def, CB, DS, etc.?

mepersoner

26-10-2004, 09:12

"Guilg is a weak helm that no elite dueler would ever use."
-Garbad the Weak arguing with Kirsty, Kazama, and Mepersoner

Asheron

26-10-2004, 11:04

he still can't even spell it right,same with carapace. o.O

My old setup,with which I teared apart everyone e z was similar to the first one,except I used enigma for max DR,Ber'd HoZ, Highlords and 2 ravens.

It worked very very well for me,way better than I expected.

LovelyGods

26-10-2004, 14:17

Another thing to keep in mind.

as you lvl up (90+) the chance of Deadly Strike Increases, Your Chance to Hit Increases, And your Chance to block/not get hit increases.

Inother words, if ur serious about a zealot, lvl him to 90+ the results are amazing.

Also with my current setup i find it to work very good, maybe it could be better if i fixed some chams but right now its good for me.

CoA Ber Ber (30% Dr)
Eth Zod Valor
40/15 Dungo
Cham Alma (74/73/+2)
Upped Gores
Angelic Ring x 2
Angelic ammy.
Eth Zod Razor Edge (222ed)
Magnus Skin Gloves

now here is something interesting , i tested this with two options, War Trav and Gores. With War trav i did roughly 5k damage with razor. With gores i did 4.6.

i changed some charms to give me more damage but less ar, it went from 22500+ down to 22000. Now this doesn't seem like alot but some how i couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with 22000 ar. Then i changed it back to 22500+ and i hit people like they had no defense and no shield on.

Im still convinced that there IS A AR BREAKPOINTS that we dont have yet.

"but brian, in 08-09 nobody ever said anything about this, why now?"

in 08-09 and even now, nobody knows cuz in those days u didn't need ar nor super high defense. Now Ar and defense make a difference, im not sure what the particualr breakpoints are for AR as of yet but i have some idea.

one at 10.5k, 15k, 18k, 22.5k, 24k, and i dont know any more. But if anyone wants to prove me right or wrong go ahead.

also i think there IS DEFENSE breakpoints as well.

last night ivan and i were messsing around, he had 38k defense i had 28k. with my 22.7k ar i hit him like he had no shield on and no defense. while he barely hit me most of the time.

This has happened in many times before with people, they get all this defense and still get hit tons. Which leads me to believe that there IS some sort of defense breakpoints.

Can anyone find this out, how to test this?

ToThePoint

26-10-2004, 14:28

50dr vs 46dr is quite a big difference.
Using my 'trusty' spreadsheet and ignoring crushing, char 2 was winning.
Then i noticed only 46dr and it changed around, 4% dr lost = 8% more damage taken.

Any thought on how to incorporate crushing?
As its a fixed percent but life is obviously varying how about taking a fixed crushing by assuming half life as a basis for calcs?
100% life = 1*full benefit
50% life = 1*1/2 benefit = 1/2* full benefit
0life = 1*0 benefit = 0* full benefit if you catch my meaning.
Then average crushing could just be factored off the 50% life. Its ofc an approx but seems reasonable over time.

edit: lovelygods, the formulae for ar/dr are known as always and haven't changed - ask a file reader for confirmation. There are not breaks as such.

LovelyGods

26-10-2004, 14:55

well the old math is wrong then. Because it clearly doesn't work like that.

Zeal is to random to find a exact number or percentage which is why i belive there is certain ranges or breakpoints for ar.

As for the defense, all the e.bug items dont make any difference if you ask me. The higher defense doesn't really help. In any case you could get a person with 50k defense and he will still get hit.

and that -33target defense or -25 on most of our favoriate weapons, was that ever taken into account?

There is something fishy with zeal, i intend to find out. But for goodness sake, stop telling me the old forumlia are correct. I know we have formula but if it is wrong then what good is it?

ToThePoint

26-10-2004, 14:57

you say its wrong - game disagrees.
Touchy feely ideas on 1 duel vs another are not hard facts on how the game processes data.

LovelyGods

26-10-2004, 15:00

so your saying that blizzard e-mailed you the correct ways to find out how ar and defense are calculated?

-Ferro-

26-10-2004, 15:56

Another thing to keep in mind.

as you lvl up (90+) the chance of Deadly Strike Increases, Your Chance to Hit Increases, And your Chance to block/not get hit increases.

The % chance of Deadly to Trigger only depends of the % amount you stack. I tested it back in 1.09, dont see any reason for this has changed coze, you mean all the % to tragger increases as you level up? Sorru, I need proves before agree with that assumption.

The chance to hit/not get hitted increases with your level, thats well known for all.

About the chance to block, while you keep it at 75% I see no reason to think you shouldnt block 3 of each 4 hits. You mean both duelers, one clvl 8x and another clvl 9x, the first blocks 75% on dislay and the second has an "efective" blocking of, lets say, 80%? (just guessing numbers).

Dont wanna be picky, its just that need to be proven.

About the Def/Ar issue and the breakpoints, you may be right, I have noticed too weird things with the AR and Def, both factors seems not to work on a lineal (proportional? -sorry for my english-) basis, cant explain it better, tho I haven found any prove neither.

Garbad_the_Weak

26-10-2004, 16:03

you should ber the alma on that setup, and use the open socket on the guillame for the cham.
I don't use guil with alma, I use berber coa.

I had also considered this setup, which has promise:

eth dc
negra /w ber
guil ed/ias
levi (1674 def, 25 dr, 49 str) with ed/ias
rends
1 raven frost, angelics
verd
gore

Lower defense by far, but nice other mods. Rejected for weak defense, but has promise.

Garbad

Garbad_the_Weak

26-10-2004, 16:05

I said this before and I'll say it again. There is no ideal setup. A Zealot needs to adapt his gear as his opponents change.
Of course, but this is specifically about zvz. For zvz, I think you can make a fair statistical comparison.

No question the first setup is better vs all, thats why I planned it that way. He has high crushing to kill barbs and I wanted the ias as it is so I could use widow at 9 frames on switch. Plus he is way more fashionable :D

Garbad

LovelyGods

26-10-2004, 16:43

The % chance of Deadly to Trigger only depends of the % amount you stack. I tested it back in 1.09, dont see any reason for this has changed coze, you mean all the % to tragger increases as you level up? Sorru, I need proves before agree with that assumption.

The chance to hit/not get hitted increases with your level, thats well known for all.

About the chance to block, while you keep it at 75% I see no reason to think you shouldnt block 3 of each 4 hits. You mean both duelers, one clvl 8x and another clvl 9x, the first blocks 75% on dislay and the second has an "efective" blocking of, lets say, 80%? (just guessing numbers).

Dont wanna be picky, its just that need to be proven.

About the Def/Ar issue and the breakpoints, you may be right, I have noticed too weird things with the AR and Def, both factors seems not to work on a lineal (proportional? -sorry for my english-) basis, cant explain it better, tho I haven found any prove neither.

I said that about deadly strike because i noticed that the higher yourlvl the more ds was casted. Stoutwood is lvl 96 and has only 15%Ds, it casts at least 3/5 swings, While im lvl 90 and have 65%Ds it casts 3/5 swings.

im not sure if this is enough proof but what i can tell, the higher ur lvl , the more DS is casted.

ToThePoint

26-10-2004, 18:03

so your saying that blizzard e-mailed you the correct ways to find out how ar and defense are calculated?I am saying that the formulae have long been known.
You think the game gets to the part of code (which people have read) which deals with AR/DR and just skips it to perform a 'lovelygods secret conspiracy ar/dr check'?
And ofc ar and dr are not linear - thats simple to see from either the formula itself or by plugging in a few numbers.

so what damage etc would the 3rd low def setup have?
looks like it has both low ar and def and not much improved damage from first glance.

-Ferro-

26-10-2004, 18:39

I said that about deadly strike because i noticed that the higher yourlvl the more ds was casted. Stoutwood is lvl 96 and has only 15%Ds, it casts at least 3/5 swings, While im lvl 90 and have 65%Ds it casts 3/5 swings.

im not sure if this is enough proof but what i can tell, the higher ur lvl , the more DS is casted.

If you tested it, please post it since is too important issue to keep it unknown. But its different if you just "feels like" hes casting more CS from your experience in a zeal vs zeal duel. This duels are very fast and many things can make them inflict more or less damge. You have to consider, ie, CB when hes at full life. Also your and his min and max damage, a min damge with deadly casted may look as a regular max without it, a max with CB may look as a DS one, etc...

I would like to ask you, since you post here regularly and have the gear and builds to try it (not as me, dont play any pvp melee char besides my rabies wolf), to make a formal test to clear this up. Just get a weapon with tight average damage to fix the min/max strike (I suggest a normal PB socketed with a min damage jewel). Then hit your friend (he doesnt needs to use shield, naked is ideal) with differents ammounts of DS. Make rounds like 20 hits per set up, and post here what comes out. It would be really appreciated.

LovelyGods

26-10-2004, 19:40

I am saying that the formulae have long been known.
You think the game gets to the part of code (which people have read) which deals with AR/DR and just skips it to perform a 'lovelygods secret conspiracy ar/dr check'?
And ofc ar and dr are not linear - thats simple to see from either the formula itself or by plugging in a few numbers.

so what damage etc would the 3rd low def setup have?
looks like it has both low ar and def and not much improved damage from first glance.

ok sure its long known, i agree with that, but having it long known doesn't make it correct for 1.10. That formulia hasn't been changed since 1.7.

isn't is at all possible now that there is no Eth bug(the one where Eth rune did ITD) in weapons, that this forumlia is wrong?

Cuz if u ask me zeal sure doesn't feel or look like it did in 1.09 or before. Tons have changed. Now defense IS a factor, AR IS a factor. Unlike 1.09 for example, Ar wast not a factor due to the Eth thing, Def didn't matter because all used the Eth thing.

But to say that a 5 year old forumlia from 1.07 is still valid after 3 patches is absurd. Espically after 1.10.

you have no proof even to validate that zeal still works the same as that formulia states. Which is why we need to invistagate this matter more closely then just

"there is already a formulia"

Do you have a zealot? Cuz most of them would probably agree with me on this. It does not hit like it should most of the time.

Some duels i have fought, i face a person with 18kdefense, I have 23kar, and i never hit them. Seems sorta odd. That formulia said i should hit that person alot. :P

Other duels i face a person with 45kdefense, with my 23kar i hit them like they have no defense or sheild. But the trusty old forumlia said i have a lower percentage to hit on that particualr person...... odd eh? :p

~~ The-Professor lvl 90 Temple/Ch Zealot~~

ToThePoint

26-10-2004, 19:57

yes i have a zelaot - i am not saying anything about his abilities but that doesn't alter the fact that mpq file readers (this is 3rd time i have mentioned it - people can basically see what blizz coded) have not said its changed and have probably confirmed it.
they have completely dissembled far more complex functions in the game by code reading than ar/dr.
Your only proof is 'ug i died - hah u died' which is no proof.

Your own 2 examples show that - you have the same ar but you hit the higher def char more. Thats not an ar/dr issue obviously unless you say that more dr = more chance to be hit, its just the luck of the draw.

50% chance to hit does not mean hit miss hit miss hit miss etc
might be 1000 hits in a row - its random within the limits of the stats on the char.

LovelyGods

26-10-2004, 20:04

the mpq files are just the files that the game and each of its particular components. i dont think u can just "pick" out the part about ar. cuz after u decode witha a mpq reader, you can't really go any further into the particular game file. other then add or delete.

in the past on some of my programs i had to use WinMPQ to fix some files. you cannot go any further then to look at a particuar list of componets a particuar MPQ file is made up of.

Unless i missed something on how to do that.

Los Sin Nombre

26-10-2004, 20:19

People reads actual game code too, not only MPQ -files.

I'm with TTP here.

LovelyGods

27-10-2004, 03:12

So u mean to say that some place in those thousands of mpq files that this game has is a formulia for attackrating and chance to hit?

some one actually took the time to find it. and decode it. and interperate it?

im stickin to my story, that other stuff about mpq and formulias are from 07-09, we are in 1.10 now. that needs to be updated. i can say for a fact that zeal doesn't work very well like its supposed to. no not cuz i "opps i died" or anything like that, im saying that there is something we do not know or understand about zeal yet.

The patch changed the way we use ar and defense , therefore i dont think the old formulia is still valid.

sure it was always there ,but we never had to take that into account when a duel. Because of the Eth rune bug/ means that you didn't need ar or defense in a zeal battle.

On the flip side, now u do. so i dont see how the forumulia is still valid.

mepersoner

27-10-2004, 03:16

You seem to forget some of us dueled in an eth-free environment in 1.09. Not much has changed as far as hitting is concerned.

Ethereal.Grizzly

27-10-2004, 04:04

garb we recently traded off a eth glads bane.
ever think about that in any of your set ups?
maybe something like:

eth Death's Cleaver
CoA Ber Ber
Eth glad bane
40/15 Dungo
Ber Alma
Gores
Angelic Rings
Angelic ammy
Magnus gloves

guess this is more ar oriented. wit ha mix of somewhat high def

space_loner

27-10-2004, 04:25

I've only ever made one, fairly weak, physical dmg zealot, but with my elemental ones and all my other pallies that at least have some points in zeal as back-up, I'd have to agree with lovely gods, or contribute my own opinion:

Either there are breakpoints or incorrect formulas concerning AR and Defense, or it has a lot to do with what your enemy build is.
Barbarians are generally high in defense, but if they are frenzyers or berserkers they can hardly stop running around, so defense isnt very useful for them. When they engage in melee combat, the time between swings is (i believe) when defense has an effect. Since frenzy and zeal are both mega fast attacks I hardly see how defense would affect anything... I've taken off my angelics dueling these barbs and putting on BKs and Highlords and it worked well enough to convince me that this is so.

On the other hand, spell casting classes such as poison/pnb necros, orb/lightning/fireball sorcs and (especially) trappers probably make use of their defense more, ironically they all happen to have low defense in general.
And, of course, block, accuracy or DS does not increase by lvl, but there are enough fool's weapons and things like head striker or highlords to make that untrue. A lvl truely is very useful, with its 5 stat points it makes all the difference in the world.

Finally, concerning shield block, I would suggest possibly getting over 75%. I once had a paladin with 75% shieldblock using HOZ and lvl 5 holy shield. After some gear changes, I got guardian angels, lvl 11 holy shield, and a bunch of bonus dex from gear that raised my shield block to somewhere around 150%. That means even when fighting or running you still retain 50% block, and if you have a good block recovery it helps way more than defense ever could. I wouldnt suggest going for 245% block though, that would be too insane.

Ethereal.Grizzly

27-10-2004, 04:36

the thing is garb takes his time and walks in his z v z duels anyways :lol:

Garbad_the_Weak

27-10-2004, 05:05

garb we recently traded off a eth glads bane.
ever think about that in any of your set ups?
I actually used the eth glad on my wolfbarb. Its a handy item, but ultimately too low defense I think.

And whats wrong with walking. Footwork is one of my strengths -_-

In other news, today I dueled darks zeal. Standard razor/negra/ark setup on him, about 2k life, 23/23, 4.8k zeal. Nice for a razor.

Anyhow, my results:

carp 5-1 me
ark 2-5 him
carp 5-1 me
razor/ark 5-3 me
ark/dc 5-3 me

Although I came back and won with ark and dc, the duels were much closer. Again the theme, blowout wins with carp, loss/close with ark. I am getting more and more convinced ark is not the setup for me at least.

Garbad

LovelyGods

27-10-2004, 05:26

did i not win vs you garbad?

and u did wear ur carapiece?

but yea, zeal is still 80% luck 15% gear 5% charms.

Garbad_the_Weak

27-10-2004, 05:40

Yeah, you did beat me, no idea what I was wearing. I have been trying a lot. Msg me tommorow and we can duel some more.

I would say:

35% gear/charms
35% build
20% skill
5% connection
5% chance (at least in a best of 9, one duel is a crapshoot)

The reality is practically every ch/temple zealot has very, very good gear/charms and a good build. I think a lot of the wins come down to minor char differences, skill, and luck, much more so than caster duels where one hit determines the duel.

Just my opinion tho.

Garbad

LovelyGods

27-10-2004, 05:51

no thats a good opinion cuz i feel that way also,

i was dueling tek tonight and we were super close, but there was minor differences in damage and life / ar that made me win some of the time.

other time it was One good hit by either of us that determined a duel.

o btw watch out for Marcus aka Zmiter he is lvl 97now and is quite a beast to duel.

mortic

27-10-2004, 17:52

There is nothing wrong with the AR/DEF/Level formula. Lovely, you should take your zealot with a low-damage weapon and take many swings at a 30k and 50k defense target with your 23k ar. Use normal swing if that makes it easier to see. Counting both blocks and hits, you will find that the formula still works.

Of all the fast special attacks that require AR/DEF, only WWvWW relies the most from stats, higher stats win this duel. Fhr, weapon range and other factors are involved in zvz and single-swing duels. You can't base the outcome solely on stats in this case.

edited correction: You need to be within range to hit with WW. What I mean by "weapon range" in zvz is that lower range weapon has priority on first zeal if both are swinging at the same time.

Gremlins

27-10-2004, 19:16

I would say:

35% gear/charms
35% build
20% skill
5% connection
5% chance (at least in a best of 9, one duel is a crapshoot)

20% skill is a little high for clicking on someone isn't it?

Grem

Garbad_the_Weak

27-10-2004, 20:03

20% skill is a little high for clicking on someone isn't it?
The whole "its only clicking" thing makes me laugh. What, do you control your d2 char in caster duels by esp? Maybe by throwing darts at your comp? Seriously, what then? Clicking, switching, walking, attacking -- its all about timing/tactics, aka judgement.

Footwork, using range, avoiding certian attacks, etc, makes a huge difference. This is why experienced zealots beat rich beginners with the same gear consistently. Its a fact, there is more to it than the uneducated think. Make a char and find out for yourself.

Garbad

Stoutwood

27-10-2004, 21:01

I respect Grem more than a lot of the zealots on West. Don't belittle him.

cracked sash

27-10-2004, 21:36

None of your set-ups have much resistances.

Stoutwood

27-10-2004, 21:40

None of your set-ups have much resistances.

Against most opponents in ZvZ, resists aren't a huge factor. Nonetheless, if I ever run across an elemental Zealot, I can throw on Imp Shanks and a Um Herald, which will bump me up to max resists. Anyone who doesn't carry resistance gear in their stash is a fool.

Gremlins

27-10-2004, 22:57

The whole "its only clicking" thing makes me laugh. What, do you control your d2 char in caster duels by esp? Maybe by throwing darts at your comp? Seriously, what then? Clicking, switching, walking, attacking -- its all about timing/tactics, aka judgement.

Footwork, using range, avoiding certian attacks, etc, makes a huge difference. This is why experienced zealots beat rich beginners with the same gear consistently. Its a fact, there is more to it than the uneducated think. Make a char and find out for yourself.

Garbad

I have a char (see pic?), it's too bad I don't get to play now or else I'd be having fun on East. I never said DUELING doesn't take much skill, I said ZvZ was, that's the whole point of this post right? You were replying to Lovely's comment, on how zeal is 80% luck 15% gear 5% charms. Tell me, how many times do you switch or run/walk footwork in zeal duels? Maybe once, twice max? You run while they are zealing you = you just lost a few hits. Maybe shift zeal if you have a good range weapon, but even that takes little if any skill. It's not that people don't know how to shift zeal it's just that most people don't know about it. That's knowledge more than anything.

The fact is that people zeal duel because it's different. It's not as much skill than adjustment to your opponent's equip, something that Stoutwood and more have advocated all this time. There is no perfect build, stop trying to find one. It's fun because there IS luck in it. To me it's like no-limit texas hold-em, you can have a sweet flop and still get caught on the river :lol:

Grem

Voice

28-10-2004, 00:13

There is no perfect build, stop trying to find one.
Grem

This is what addicts most people to this game .... thus the search will never end.

mepersoner

28-10-2004, 00:18

It's not as much skill than adjustment to your opponent's equip, something that Stoutwood and more have advocated all this time.

And have been wrong about. It's about both.

VaL

28-10-2004, 00:29

i love shift-zealing with my dc to people who walk up ith their razors :clap:

Mehatesmaphack

28-10-2004, 01:03

which takes more skill? taking a piss or zvz? I say taking a piss

mepersoner

28-10-2004, 01:34

which takes more skill? taking a piss or zvz? I say taking a piss

Not sure about now, but back in the day more than just zeal was used in z v z.

Ethereal.Grizzly

28-10-2004, 01:37

i agree with meph.. back in 09 zealers would use vengence and smite in thier attacks as well. i remember my wolf would do very well in temple duels agains zealers but when they switched to vengeance i got owned.. lol. go 8 fpa attack? wonder how that owned me.... :lol:

Stoutwood

28-10-2004, 04:34

I have no compunctions about switching to smite or charge to win a duel. A dueler who thinks Zeal is his only attack won't ever kill a REAL zealot.

Gremlins

28-10-2004, 07:46

I was in west temple a few times, I didn't see too much fancy footwork, unless you guys all break it down during the tournaments.

Grem

Stoutwood

28-10-2004, 07:50

I was in west temple a few times, I didn't see too much fancy footwork, unless you guys all break it down during the tournaments.

Grem

Depends on who's dueling really. With Mortic I end up doing some dancing/charging around, but with most duels I try to get in as fast as possible so that I don't get wasted by someone with superior range.

Tor

28-10-2004, 08:40

but when i go into temple all the zealots start dying cuz of my f/r wolf cept stout(too good)

i think haveign a bit or resists in a duel is nice cuz other charcs can drop by to

mrJ

28-10-2004, 09:11

but when i go into temple all the zealots start dying cuz of my f/r wolf cept stout(too good)and eternal*

<3 Tor, your smiter still makes me eat pain and dai. :scared:

-Ferro-

28-10-2004, 10:59

Almost all pure melee duelers dont take much skill neither, see javazons, smiters (lol), BvB,... some people is smarter than others and do the charge-shift thing, step-walk-away, whatevever you may call it, but it isnt that big tactic neither, dont see any reason for arguing about this beyond raising the counter-post.

againandagain

28-10-2004, 13:22

i can understand why errors in formulas may happen. because you guys think of every build combination :flip: and every little detail in the game :spy: that effect winning a duel :lol:

Garbad_the_Weak

28-10-2004, 14:56

It depends. Some zealots prefer only zeal games. Some prefer tactics. I prefer tactics, but generally just do whatever everyone else is doing that game.

Garbad

mortic

28-10-2004, 23:20

I don't think the word "skill" should be associated with d2. Everything in d2 is about your knowledge of the build you are using. If you considered that as "skill" then by all mean keep on using the word.
I mostly agree with Ferro points on melee. WW and some other swing duels are about stats comparison. Zeal is a little different especially when you have over 3k hp which gives you some room for mistake while getting into good zealing position. Anyone who knows the power of shield-locking your opponent (very effective in 1.09) with "ghost" zeal should know what I mean by good zealing position.

space_loner

28-10-2004, 23:23

mortic

28-10-2004, 23:47

I've seen tactic zealots and have played some myself, but they are relatively rare and perhaps 20% is an overestimate. Fact is, hardly any build requires more than 20% skill nowadays, and the game becomes very gear dependant (how much skill does a fireball sorc need to stand there and spam FBs)

However, if anything needs skill in zvz, its charge, any build of paladin should have charge for pvp, and its the single most powerful skill with 1 pt in it. Charge is used for first strike, retreat, dodge... and I find it really useful in a close range fight to knock the enemy back and make use of long ranged weapons.
While smite is somewhat overpowering in melee "zvz" duels, charge isn't. Level1 smite with bad-mannered gears can destroy any zeal with good or bad mannered gears.

The only problem with using charge against most zealots is that you may step on so many people's toes and sprain your ankle; most zealots don't like it when you use charge vs them. Another problem is that annoying bug when you die while charging.

space_loner

29-10-2004, 00:42

indeed, charge has many bugs... especially annoying being the one that it suddenly stops working. Another useful all-should-have skill is holy freeze, though less so in this version than v1.09.

smite is the single most messed up skill in the game. Redeemer's and Astron's added damage bonus is tacked on regardless of skill lvl, and the bonus is always several hundred RAW damage, regardless of pvp panelty. This means, with a redeemer and some other nice stuff, anything with smite can rip melee classes to little bitty pieces in pvp. :(

LovelyGods

29-10-2004, 06:17

thats what we are talking about.

the charge bug which makes it so ur charge is broken is caused by you getting killed during mid charge, or at the tail end of charge.

ToThePoint

29-10-2004, 12:04