Steelrends Vs Draculs anyone?

[panos_gr]

hi again^^ i was wondering if theres a post or something with a detailed test
on draculs vs steelrend for bvb mostly. If not wou are welcome to do one(rikstaker?:P) and im avalable to help on europe ladder (have steelre/dracul/botd for test) almost anytime^

[FlamingTurd]

Most bvb are WW, and since life-tap dont trigger with WW, there goes one of the biggest reason in using dracs. Some may argue that the drac's 25% OW is good, but IMO up to 60% ED and far superior defense on the rends makes Steelrends the top choice.

[mstrnicegui]

if you're building an all-out dmg barb, 'rends are a better choice, but if you're going for a more well-rounded barb, drac's are by far a better choice. The 25% ow added in with the rest of your gear will trigger a decent amount, along with the decent ds% you should have.

[panos_gr]

whats the difference of all out dmg barb between well rounded when walking about bvb?:?

[Herald of Doom]

I would take a good draculs anyday. 15str isn't 20, but it's close enough, and the 60%ed is very nice but I'd rather have more OW. OW at lvl 90 or higher is a serious killer, especially in BvB where you can expect to miss a lot.

PS: I haven't tested a 60/20 steelrend yet, only my own very crappy 37/17 and a 54/18 from a friend.

HoD

[Dahmer]

i got 5x/15+ steels on both my barbs & for bvb nothing really beats those, for bvb u need pure dmg/cb/ds, not ow
if u plan to fight more than just barbs i'd go for draculs, along with gores u get a decent amount of ow :D

[Mehatesmaphack]

i got 5x/15+ steels on both my barbs & for bvb nothing really beats those, for bvb u need pure dmg/cb/ds, not ow
if u plan to fight more than just barbs i'd go for draculs, along with gores u get a decent amount of ow :D

you are wrong the math is simple. what's good damage for 1 hand ww? about 6k? after pvp penalty and dr it's only 500 damage.(not counting deadly strike.) while ow alone does 500+ at lvl 90+.

[Dahmer]

dont forget extra 10% cb on steels :p & i kinda dont need draculs to get enough dmg from ow, gores is enough for me

[Mehatesmaphack]

dont forget extra 10% cb on steels :p & i kinda dont need draculs to get enough dmg from ow, gores is enough for me

cb only takes off 1/20 of other players' life. so assuming your opponent has 8k life it will still only have a 10% chance of taking off 400 of their life which converts to 40 extra damage. and ow resets itself every hit so if you get multiple hits per ww you'll want as much ow as possible for it drain their life like crazy.

[Dahmer]

what about the 13 life replenish from dungo's & 6 life repl per angelic ring & maybe some other items?

u wouldnt happen to have a site with exact stats for life lost with ow & life gained with life replenish?

[rikstaker]

Well,I'll be off bnet until I finish the guide...which is when..I have no clue.. :scratch:

Dracs have the upperhand in bvb.OW is a potent damage dealer in bvb,no doubt about that,unlike physical damage,which rend deals in,ow isnt cut by damage reduction & is only reduced by 1/4th in pvp compared to the 1/6th standard.

On a paper comparison-
avg bvb build:

375% botd
level 26 ww
level 24 mastery
Total ed from skill & 40 ed jewel in arreats(333)
230 strength
Lets assume a 117 to max from charms.

With perfect rends - 333+60=393% ed:

the damage is:1236-4483 -avg:2859- after pvp reduction:477- with max pdr:238

With draculs:333% ed (strength remains same,the excess on rends is assumed to be traded for vit)

the damage is:1134-4111 - avg:2622-after pvp reduction:437-with max pdr:219

OW damage after 1/4th pvp reduction at Clvl 90:
66.6 per sec over 8 seconds for a total of 533 damage.

So the end equation is:

STEELRENDS:

5 more strength=>vitality=~45 life after bo.
19 more damage than dracs setup.
~600 more final defense than dracs after shout/ironskin.

note:the ed variance of 30-60% is huge,thats an outside factor which need to be taken into account as well.


DRACULS:

25% more chance of triggering ow..i.e 66.7 damage per sec or 533 damage over 8 seconds..
-----
ow without dracs on a botd bvb setup would be 43%(duress33,gores10) with dracs it is 68%.

When we base our comparisons on pure ow bvb setups:fury/beast/kingslayer,dracs automatically become even more superior,due to the lower weapon damage of these weapons,which make the ed% of rends even less effective.

Moreover dracs becomes somewhat obligatory for attaining the lethal ~100% ow rate(with gores:fury gets there without duress,kingslayer gets there with duress,beast attains 93% with duress,which is enough since fana more than makes up for the 7% deficiency)

Rik :strong:

[mstrnicegui]

replenish life counts refilling a barb's life bulb in the minutes, but ow counts removing a barb's life in seconds. Unlike cb, ow is unresistable.

Formula for replenish life: (25 * (+Replenish life)) / 256 = Life Per Second

the 19 replenish life from dungos and angelic is 1.9 life replenished/sec. That's 35 minutes to refill a 4k life barb's bulb.

[panos_gr]

NICE thx all:) and always loved your numbers rikstaker^^ Its just that i read in euro.pvp forums almost all talking in favor of steelrend and that was contrary to what i believed.Anyway now im sure:) see ya....till my next question^^

[mcm]

5 more str from Steelrends DOES NOT equate to 45 more life, in particular because of the high strength requirement of steelrends making it most likely to be the LAST item you equip (order wise.) This means you aren't saving any stats from it. Dracul's OTOH are 50 str req, so they save you 15 str.

OW is still underrated. At level 90 OW is worth 6200 listed physical damage against a 50% PDR opponent. That's significant. In BVB you're rarely hitting each other due to defense/block, so the 8 second duration pans out nicely.
In BVC versus decent opponents, there is going to be lengthy down time between WW hits, again the duration does not hinder anything.

[insane_knights]

Dracs all the way. Ow is 2 good to pass up. Considering bvb duels take like 20 minutes and most of the time is waiting for the other barb to hit you so your mana goes back up :grrr: . a steel rend barb vs a steal rend barb will probably take like 1 hour unless they use mana pots or conc/serk.

[rikstaker]

@panos:I hope u concluded the right thing..dracs>rends.For clarification:I stated the 5 strength,19 damage & 600 defense under rends for the sake of completion,one can judge that the numbers are insignificant.

OW is just great for bvb,caz you dont hit so often there, so a timed damage like ow is well suited for the conditions,it cant be reduced like physical damage & it is cut only by 1/4th ,having as high a percentage as possible ups your chances in duels.

@mcm:Check back ^^,I used 230 strength in those calculations for both setups.Thats not rend requirement+ strength.Using rend's strength for both setups is detrimental for a fair comparison.I had to factor in the probability of wearing something like carapace,so rends is not necesserily the last item you equip,it is likely as you said,but not always true,as bvbers also use carapace.I had to take that into account for a broader comparison.I mentioned duress later on,only to depict the ow possibility of 43% on botd builds without dracs & 68% with dracs.

Like I said above,steel rend numbers/stats (including strength) were for the sake of completion,in conclusion anyone can say-dracs blow rends out of the water as all the numbers on rends, 60% ed in particular,when processed turn out to be damp squibs.

Anyway,Pay attention next time & don't bother the mighty Rik for petty clarifications.

Rik :strong:

[ToThePoint]

Anyway,Pay attention next time & don't bother the mighty Rik for petty clarifications.

Rik :strong:What a pathetic statement.

By using 230 str for the comparison you have introduced a 2 main flaws.
1. eth carapace is used - normal carapace isn't - str req 220 not 230.
2. eth carapace is not the only armor to be used and is not the most common thus a bad example.
No other reasonable armor will require that str thus mcms statement about rends str not equalling vit is correct.
It is however clear that dracs is better than rendsfor a low frequency striking duel.

[Dahmer]

mmm you're all calcuating ow dmg like you got 100% ow, not that great imo (xcept for rikstaker :p)
lets say u got a barb with gores as only item with ow/cb
add draculs to that & u got 35% chance of ow
but just imagine yourself getting badluck & never getting ow, then u only got the dmg from the str on draculs

when adding steelrends to that u allways get higher dmg & got total of 25% crushing blow + you also got 10% ow from gores & if you're lucky u get ow & the extra dmg from steelrends

it really isnt simple math to figure out what the best gloves are, more like statistics to me & for some lucky ppl (like me) the gores are more than enough to get ow your target

i also agree with ttp, eth carapace is really not the only option

so imho only way that draculs are better is when u got 0% ow from equip or if you reach +80% ow with them

[luis19]

BvB duels are long enough that that 25% more OW makes a huge difference. Especially when you are rarely hitting each other, if you have a better chance for OW it usually decides the winner given both have similar life/d/ar, highend gear and know what to do.

[panos_gr]

@rikstaker MM maybe Dahmer has a point here? I mean the extra given by dracul should be divided by 4..as they themselves(outside ow shouldnt matter imo as we examining just draculs vs rend...not ow vs ed) just give 1/4 of ow striking in.what you think?

[ToThePoint]

divide it by 4 and you see the OW is still alot more than the 60ed adds.

If you want to see just how good, then compare rends at their best with dracs at their worst.

The worst case for dracs is going from high % OW to even higher % and with a high chance for deadly or crit (assume 100 just to show)
Taking riks rough numbers and doubling them (for a crit) gives 476pvp damage (rends) and 438 pvp damage (dracs)
dracs is 25% OW so going from 75% to 100% shows worst case whilst stil getting full benefit.
to factor the OW simply multiply by total chance.
average dam per hit rends = 476+0.75*533=875
average damage per hit dracs = 438+1*533=971 which is a 10% daamge increase if 1 hit per 8 deconds.

Best case for dracs is 0-25%OW with no deadly
then its:
average per hit with rends = 238+0 = 238
average hit with draculs = 218+0.25*533=351 which is a 47% damage increase with 1 hit per 8 seconds.

[rikstaker]

@TTP-re:The 'pathetic statement', learn to spot my sarcasm/humour,this is your second such boo boo! IIRC.:lol:

re:the strength,well I said it earlier,I used 230 deliberately to make it a broader comparison,Now if I hadnt done that,I could have mentioned 5 more strength in place of the vitality trade off under rends,which wont mean anything,since the dmg calc was done earlier.

Besides all that is just bits & pieces,you may or may not net 45 more life,but to say you won't net 45 life,or you always will attain 45 life are both statistically incorrect.I know eth carapace isnt the only armor,but for the umpteenth time (broader comparison) .Again,higher strength of 230 was used to broaden the frame of reference,so I am quite amazed at your heated reactions on that,especially since its just 45 life in question.

But still dracs ends up superior,even acc to the % breakup calcs you provided,thats what I have been trying to prove in a fair & balanced way (even stating intricate processed details of rend stats) If I hadnt stated the extra strength,defense, I am pretty sure you & mcm would have pointed that out in the alternate scenario.

Seriously, I just dont understand what the fuss is about,especially since we both are saying dracs are superior...I showed with my 'rough' calcs that the 60% ed on rends is nothing..19 more damage or 38 on double damage hits,which btw: is just 33% chance in a bvb setup with gores ds & mastery cs.

ironically,the 'flaw' lies in using the void of any reference ow rates of 75-100% or 0-25%.Here is a more accurate/reference based version, of the % breakup comparison:

rends:238+(0.43*533)=467(duress33,gores10=43%:0.43 )
dracs:219+(0.68*533)=581(duress33,gores10,dracs25= 68%:0.68)

We are arguing for the same thing,yet we make it look so complicated..how pathetic. :cheesy:

BTW who is that in your tar now..:scratch: mcguyver looked better>.<

Rik :strong:
---------------
P.S: next time,try to spot my sarcasm & dont try to ignite z mighty Rik into another fury.

[mstrnicegui]

z mighty rik doesn't know of the hilarious A-Team? Please tell me you've at least heard of Mr. T... "I pity the fool" who's never heard of him. The guy pictured is Murdock (Dwight Schultz) who was also a regular on Star Trek (TNG and Voyager).

[rikstaker]

z mighty rik doesn't know of the hilarious A-Team? Please tell me you've at least heard of Mr. T... "I pity the fool" who's never heard of him. The guy pictured is Murdock (Dwight Schultz) who was also a regular on Star Trek (TNG and Voyager).

z mighty foolish rik then. :flip: never heard of him >.<

@TTP:Never ever label by numbers 'rough' & then base your calculations on those.Either dont call them 'rough' or use your own numbers in your calcs.

it kinda hurts my feelings :cheesy:

Rik :strong:

[panos_gr]

heh nice. yeah rikstaker i decided on draculs although if i get this right the better the equipment gets (botd 415 anyone?) the more it goes in favor of steelrend but still draculs better.Btw why still in your second post you dont mention that draculs give only 25% ow so their total ow dmg should be divided by 4? am i missing something?

[rikstaker]

heh nice. yeah rikstaker i decided on draculs although if i get this right the better the equipment gets (botd 415 anyone?) the more it goes in favor of steelrend but still draculs better.Btw why still in your second post you dont mention that draculs give only 25% ow so their total ow dmg should be divided by 4? am i missing something?

Firstly,dracs wont be the only ow source on typical bvb setups,there is no need for /4 division since gross % multipliers are used:

which is 43/100=0.43 without dracs or 68/100=0.68 with dracs.

Using 415% botd,in the calcs with all else remaining same.

rends:net avg dmg after pvp/dmg reduction:255
dracs: "":234 (a difference of 21 instead of 19-earlier)

So recalculating the final equation:

rends:255+(0.43*533)=484(duress33,gores10=43%:0.43 )
dracs:234+(0.68*533)=596(duress33,gores10,dracs25= 68%:0.68)

now lest suppose you arent using duress,instead you use stone,valor or carapace:

rends:255+(0.10*533)=308(gores10=10%:0.10 )
dracs:234+(0.35*533)=421(gores10,dracs25= 35%:0.35)

:yawn:

Rik :strong:

[panos_gr]

woot thats nice:)) Hope im able to help the community too soon^^^

Last remark is that its assuming you take the best out of your ow right? like running around for 8 seconds after hit(I mean 2 hits in same second should retrigger a new ow yes?)

Anyway thx a lot.Really think this thread turned out to something useful:)

[Mr_Grimm]

this is my advice:

steelrends for if you like consistently (slightly) higher damage, draculs for if you want the chance of that extra devastating hit every now and then.

[ToThePoint]

@TTP:Never ever label by numbers 'rough' & then base your calculations on those.Either dont call them 'rough' or use your own numbers in your calcs.


They were rough but it was simple enough case to use them to show dracs were better.
the %s are completely irrelevant as dracs was shown to be superior in a best and worst case scenario. That means numbers are unimportant.
The actual %s of 'real' examples don't matter either as due to char level the ratio of physical:OW damage will vary.

You repeated that use of carapace str gives a broader comparison but it actually only gives the comparison for carapace as it is most likely the only armor with such a high requirement that is usable.

I dont believe the comment you made which i called pathetic was a joke due to the way you flippantly dismissed mcms correct comment and the tone of the post but erm yeah if you say so.

At least we agree that draculs are better for general pubbying and certain duelling rulesets.
Some places limit OW due to its lameness though.

[xpumafangx]

A gen. comment about open wounds.

I have heard alot about open wounds being a really good thing to have in classic barb vs barb. And I have a gut feeling that it will be true with 1.10 exp as well.

[Two_Rivers]

It seems to me we are baseing the argument solely on bvb, what about for other duels, especially hard match ups for barbs like bone necros? Or how about for pvm? Does anyone even play pvm any more :scratch:

[xpumafangx]

I play b vs m and I have found that the only thing I really need is....

1. a good high damage weapon.

2. 75% resist all in hell.

[rikstaker]

I dont believe the comment you made which i called pathetic was a joke due to the way you flippantly dismissed mcms correct comment and the tone of the post but erm yeah if you say so.

if you understand me so well,that you know better than me,what I meant when I put it into text,then we should get married. :thumbsup: I hope mcm wont be jealous. :flip:

-------
storm is str rqrmnt 156,with+30 on it,it gets you to 186,which is enough to put on rends(185),which means in any scenario,rends gives you more stats then dracs when perfect.Now instead of using two different strengths for individual dmg calcs of rend & dracs,I chose to increase the str input to 230 which would render the comparison unversal.I could later interpret rend's 5 excess as more life.

I am not basing my comparison on carapace,I am making sure that the results are applicable to it as well.

If you insist I'll redo the figures with storm str i.e using 186(storm) for dracs setup & 206(storm+20) for rends,but the results wont apply to carapace users,is that correct?

So here we go again.. with all else remaining same,except strengths-final dmg:

rends:247,dracs 218

rends:247+(0.43*533)=476(duress33,gores10=43%:0.43 )
dracs:218+(0.68*533)=580(duress33,gores10,dracs25= 68%:0.68)

now lets suppose you arent using duress,instead you use stone,valor or...
( :evil: ) hey you <<.. where ish carapashe????

rends:247+(0.10*533)=300(gores10=10%:0.10 )
dracs:218+(0.35*533)=405(gores10,dracs25= 35%:0.35)

edit:re the usage-personally I think the application is mainly serious bvb,against casters the duels dont last that long,since you kill them with a few hits or you get pwned quick,but still dracs are superior,if it triggers it means 500+ dmg which is a large chunk of any caster's life & the 60% ed on rends really doesnt hold against the 25% chance on dracs.

OW in pvm..well,dont bother,just use high dmg weapons & rends are better for the cb str & dmg,if you have ml elsewhere,otherwise use souls.

Rik :strong:

[rikstaker]

@Panos

1st comment:hop in :wave:

2nd- I guess you are confused here or were earlier somewhat,with the /4 division ,I am not sure:

Ow when it triggers always deals the same damage depending on the clvl for e.g 66.6 per sec at clvl 90 & the duration is fixed at 8 secs.Ow will always deal that damage regardless of whether it triigers from a lower or higher ow%.Those are just chances,they stack just like cb.Their role is limited to determining the chances of triggerring & NOT the damage.The clvl determines that for ow & the target hp determines that for cb.

yes subsequent hits extend the duration.

Thnx..your thread served a purpose,good choice of topic. :thumbsup:

Rik :strong:

[panos_gr]

wel point of second comment was: Lets say 1 hit resulting to ow deals 66,6 dmg per second leading to to 8* 66.6 total dmg.If a second Hit resulting to OW occurs the next second total dmg will be 2 *8 * 66,6 or 9 * 66,6 ( as ow resets itself)? I think this would be nice to clarify too thx;)

[rikstaker]

wel point of second comment was: Lets say 1 hit resulting to ow deals 66,6 dmg per second leading to to 8* 66.6 total dmg.If a second Hit resulting to OW occurs the next second total dmg will be 2 *8 * 66,6 or 9 * 66,6 ( as ow resets itself)? I think this would be nice to clarify too thx;)

no no no no....

Suppose u trigger ow & then after 3 seconds you trigger again,the ow will last for 8 more seconds from the second hit,damage remains the same,the duration only is added.The duration is always 8 seconds from the last trigger.

Rik :strong:

[panos_gr]

so total dmg in your example is 2*8* 66,6 indeed and it takes place in time of 11 seconds.Nice thx for claryfying;)

[mstrnicegui]

total dmg is 66.6/sec over 11 seconds. There is no multiplying by 2*8... I don't know where you got that from.

[insane_knights]

Ow is not really needed in pvm due to the fact that your probably not gonna wait 8 seconds for the monster to die. For pvm i would prefer rends. Pvm is easy for a barb unless they have im on you.

[panos_gr]

ok thx mstrnicegui thats what i supposed in my initial post saying "Last remark is that its assuming you take the best out of your ow right? like running around for 8 seconds after hit(I mean 2 hits in same second should retrigger a new ow yes?)" >meaning that 2 Ows occuring at the same time is impossible.Thats what i meant about running arounf after achieving an ow to get maximum benefit as if you trigger an ow the NEXT second you only take 1 second of dmg from the first ow and 8 seconds fromt the second ow.....where at best case you could get 8 +8 if you tried. to hit(and achieved ofc) 8 secs later. Anyway sorry if i made it misunderstanding but i really got the point:)

[Dahmer]

Ow is not really needed in pvm due to the fact that your probably not gonna wait 8 seconds for the monster to die. For pvm i would prefer rends. Pvm is easy for a barb unless they have im on you.its even easy with im, just use zerk :p

& i still prefer rends actually, just for look & def :)

[LordDrift]

ya i like draculs for the open wounds