View Full Version : Red Rune Mod?
I was looking in the trade thread, and keep seeing Red Rune Mod used please offer accordingly.
What is the red rune mod, and how does it effect trade value? What does the mod do for you and where do I get it if it is useful and legit?
Thanks for the replies, I tried the search feature with no success.
dark_novastar
18-10-2004, 23:48
The red rune mod was created by a person here ( :scratch: ) at the spf, basically it allows for rune drops to be clearly seen because the text is displayed in red. Some would say it makes trade value untradable, a general consenus is needed for trade value. Its not "legit", so to speak, others support it while others dont, mabye the more knowledgeble ppl of the spf can give u more info than this.
~D_N_S~
Thanks for the fast reply. I don't think I need that, if I miss a rune because I didn't see it then I should have looked more carefully.
AlterEgo
19-10-2004, 00:44
Even though you've made your decsion ron, I want to add a bit...
The RRM was created by somebody *not* from the SPF. It's not available on diabloii.net (no mods are available here). The high majority of trades here are done by members who use no mods, so it would probably be viewed as less than positive to have found items using the mod.
I personally don't use any mods, but I wouldn't fault anyone for using the RRM. All it does is change the color of rune names when they're laying on the ground. To my knowledge it doesn't effect the drop rate of runes or any other item in the game. All it seems to do is fix a problem Blizzard should address in the next patch. After you've just dispatched 40 lil Flayers, the battlefield is a mess and missing a rune, esp. in hell diff. can be upsetting. IMO if you find someone using the RRM very upsetting and accuse them of cheating, you need to check your ballon-knot because most likely its wound tighter than Oprah's fist around a drumstick. Just my opinion, I don't take the game that seriously.
Milamber
19-10-2004, 03:29
Quite honestly, there is a RRM that I know of, and know the maker and trust them. I have no qualms with this mod being used.
However, it needs to be respected that interraction with others here in the main is mod free.
JicamaEater
19-10-2004, 04:30
I have no problem with people using this sort of mod. I probably wouldn't trade, since I generally have a bit of nagging doubt about trades for runes above Fal or so. The policy here is basically (IIRC) that as long as you're honest about any mod(s) you're running, and the community has a chance to decide if they want to trade with you, then anything that gets worked out is fine.
In my humble opinion, it's part of the game that when you've just killed 40 slayers or so, you have to drink all potions and maybe clear a few more items of the screen before you've seen all items. This is also true when you play, for example, in the pits lvl 2. The screen can be filled with items, and since there is a cap, not all items show.
However, when you feel obligued to use the RRM, I actually don't care, but I wouldn't trade with you anymore. (Not that I trade much)
Just my humble opinion on this all.
Zarhrezz
19-10-2004, 09:51
In my humble opinion, it's part of the game that when you've just killed 40 slayers or so, you have to drink all potions and maybe clear a few more items of the screen before you've seen all items. This is also true when you play, for example, in the pits lvl 2. The screen can be filled with items, and since there is a cap, not all items show.
However, when you feel obligued to use the RRM, I actually don't care, but I wouldn't trade with you anymore. (Not that I trade much)
Just my humble opinion on this all.
The need to clean up after a killing spree isn't any less when using the RRM. Only runes that show on screen are displayed in red, so if you see a rune with the RRM active, you could also see it if the mod wouldn't have been active.
Dodgydave
19-10-2004, 09:52
I agree with Freekje in that I feel it's part of the game that you have to search through a pile of items to make sure you're not missing anything. I also believe runes are white cos they're meant to be white and Blizzard has had plenty of opportunities to change their colouring if they so desire. These are the reasons why I'd personally never use the RRM, however, if others feel differently I don't see any harm in using the RRM as I know a number of people do. Each to their own, as long as they inform everyone of their use of the mod.
DeathMaster
19-10-2004, 09:58
I never played D1, but I was told in D1, it is sort of pure luck to find small rings on ground. D2 already fixed part of the problem, just don't understand why not fix the problem in full.
Myself won't mind the mod at all, since it does not change anything else but the rune color. But I may not trade (I very rarely trade and only with few people I can trust here, so not really a issue to me) the items dropped in any mod.
Hehe.. I was just thinking of something. Try to think of it with realism. In the real world, there would be blood and gutter all over the place after blasting thru your enemies. Afterwards you'd have to pick through the sad remains of the slain in order to find anything of value. Only the large items would be immediately visible. I'd say the RRM is cheat if you look at it that way :D
D1 wasn't better because things could get hidden behind walls and such, and you could miss things. But pressing ALT is a bit of a cheat too imo ;)
narfman0
19-10-2004, 12:01
Diablo 1 was jacked up; there was no alt, just let your memory serve to show you where the last monster was when you heard that ring drop. A bit difficult with level 18 fireball flying around all over, or chain lightning. It was all dark, and all you could do was swing your mouse around frantically lookin at the little black rectangle in the middle of the screen.
NO RUNE COLOR MOD - You know how many high level runes I found when I stopped and actually looked? I think that is why I am so rune rich. Runes are only special when they are used as a part of something bigger, and blizzard doesn't care if we don't see one "little" cham rune.
Trade Value - I show no value in trade. I am single player anyways, haven't completed 1 transaction. I suppose I would accept an item found by someone using it though.
I don't believe the RRM changes only the color of rune drops. IIRC it also negates some of the power of the FE bug. It alters the game and will keep you from trading with a fair number of purist here in the SPF. I don't trade for my own reasons other than the RRM, but if i were a purist and found out that one was using a mod of any type I would have issues trading with them ever again. You never know what some poeple are willing to trade you for something you may already have 5 or 6 of.
I don't believe the RRM changes only the color of rune drops. IIRC it also negates some of the power of the FE bug. It alters the game and will keep you from trading with a fair number of purist here in the SPF. I don't trade for my own reasons other than the RRM, but if i were a purist and found out that one was using a mod of any type I would have issues trading with them ever again. You never know what some poeple are willing to trade you for something you may already have 5 or 6 of.
Maybe ALT is some kind of cheat yeah, but it is to fix the part where things are hidden behind walls, pillars etc.
And I don't agree with finding rings in D1 was pure luck. I have played the game alot, and finding rings has nothing to do with luck. Firstly, you could clearly see a golden ring on the ground, but secondly and most important, if you played with sound, you could clearly hear rings fall, as long as you paid attention. Sound was an important part of the game because of that. Nowadays many people play with MP3's at the background so less people rally pay attention to the sound. (I have to agree that the chance was indeed less to see the ring then it is now in D2)
Nice double post Uzziah :D
Freekje: I know you could hear rings drop, and I know that you could often see them on the ground. But I've lost many rings to the bug that sometime occured with a ring dropping inside a wall. Then you could see absolutely nothing, and finding it would be pure luck
Milamber
19-10-2004, 12:44
I don't believe the RRM changes only the color of rune drops. IIRC it also negates some of the power of the FE bug. It alters the game and will keep you from trading with a fair number of purist here in the SPF. I don't trade for my own reasons other than the RRM, but if i were a purist and found out that one was using a mod of any type I would have issues trading with them ever again. You never know what some poeple are willing to trade you for something you may already have 5 or 6 of.
Not entirely true.
There are three versions:
1. Makes runes red
2. Makes runes red, removes FE
3. Makes runes red, reduces FE
The last two are mainly for HC.
AlterEgo
19-10-2004, 12:53
Not entirely true.
There are three versions:Also not entirely true.
There are more versions. Before that one was made, Rachel aka Snowfairy aka umpteen other names, created one that was widely distributed and is still in use by many. This one also makes the game easier in other ways than highlighting runes (eg, changing the appearance of Baal's clone). Ask lone_wolf for more info on this one.
Facts: The RRMs are simply mods. They give advantages to players who use them. They "taint" the characters and items found while using them. If you use any mods you need to declare this if you trade. It's all covered in the FAQ.
Nice double post Uzziah :D
dang squid!!
What's your point?
That the squid ate your post and spit it out again after you posted it again???
:lol:
Must be a disgusting post then! :scratch:
I don't believe the RRM changes only the color of rune drops. IIRC it also negates some of the power of the FE bug.
Ehm, no. I made the FE mod, and I was asked to add a RedRuneMod to it. It's optional.
I do know that one version of the RedRuneMod also changed the name of the clone Baal summons to Baal Clone.
Edit:
Scary fact:
At the moment of editing I have exactly 2000 more posts than Freekje.
roninDOG
19-10-2004, 13:48
As you can see ron the forum is widely split on the RRM controversey. While I dont use the RRM myself I could see the benefits of using it. Others call it a "cheat" or a "hack" while other call it a "mod". I personally have no objection to using the mod and I wouldnt mind trading with someone who did either. Diablo is all about the gaming experience, I know that many people, like myself, live for the find...when I see a rune, set, or unique drop I jump up in anticipation. The bottom line is that it alters the game but I dont think it should be called a cheat or a hack and I dont think people should harp on the RRM users. Its all about the gaming experience with D2 that draws us into the SPF. If some people want to be able to spot items of value quicker so they can keep searching for those finds as fast as they can more power to them. Thier method of finding enjoyment out of the game is just as "legit" as the rest of ours because its thier opinion. Just my thoughts.
-roninDOG
It sort of suprises me that people are so causal about a mod.
After reading yesterday's thread where the poster wanted to detect dupes he might have, the general reaction was much stronger that anything even indirectly achieved with the use of a dupe or a hack was tainted. Then today, a red-rune-mod is no big deal.
It all doesn't matter to me, cause I don't trade at all, I prefer self-found items. Just seems inconsistant... :scratch:
Milamber
19-10-2004, 22:12
Also not entirely true.
There are more versions. Before that one was made, Rachel aka Snowfairy aka umpteen other names, created one that was widely distributed and is still in use by many. This one also makes the game easier in other ways than highlighting runes (eg, changing the appearance of Baal's clone). Ask lone_wolf for more info on this one.
Facts: The RRMs are simply mods. They give advantages to players who use them. They "taint" the characters and items found while using them. If you use any mods you need to declare this if you trade. It's all covered in the FAQ.
Ahh thanks AE - didn't know about this one!
No need to ask LW - I don't use teh RRM. Won't either.
Do you see it (home.centurytel.net/2xcess/Screenshot024.jpg)?
Man, ya got to take the time to look.
Alas, Baal gave me squat. best item on this run.
Do you see it (home.centurytel.net/2xcess/Screenshot024.jpg)?
Man, ya got to take the time to look.
Alas, Baal gave me squat. best item on this run.
I personally see the rune with ease guess I'm just used to looking through the names quickly. Also I recognize the sound of one dropping. :winner:
I don't really like the idea of the RRM, because it's a mod. I agree with everyone else that you should actually look through the piles of drops. One day, the mods may ban the use and speaking of RRM for SPF players and that one day one of the RRM users's'll find a Zod, and they won't be able to post about it without lying. Bottom line, look through your drops to find runes instead of using a mod.
Zarhrezz
21-10-2004, 08:02
Do you see it (home.centurytel.net/2xcess/Screenshot024.jpg)?
Man, ya got to take the time to look.
Alas, Baal gave me squat. best item on this run.
Yes, saw it within the first second of looking at the shot. I think most of us did. 4 years of experience with the game gives you 'supernatural abilities' like that I guess. Yet I do use the RRM. Why? Simply convenience and the feeling that Blizzard should have done something like this a long time ago (personally I'd say orange for low level runes, red for mid-level and purple for rare runes :lol:).
Personally I think it's overreacting to considered anything found by a player using RRM to be "tainted" (if I follow that reasoning, I can only come to the conclusion that any player using ATMA taints the characters that have items moved to/from them using ATMA, same with the modified dll that allows 2 games on 1 machine). If I do a run and no single rune drops, there is totally and utterly no difference with the same run done without the RRM, yet still any find would be tainted? :scratch:
The need to clean up after a killing spree isn't any less when using the RRM. Only runes that show on screen are displayed in red, so if you see a rune with the RRM active, you could also see it if the mod wouldn't have been active.
Thats is so true
Even if the runes are red, you must pick up some crap before you can see them. And then their color doesn't really matter anymore, just check the screenie 2xcess posted
I don't see any reasons to use RRM, I don't believe I have ever left a good rune on the ground because it wasn't funny colored
silospen
21-10-2004, 09:22
I don't believe I have ever left a good rune on the ground because it wasn't funny colored
Ah, but you dont know if you have, or if you haven't, until you do.
Ah, but you dont know if you have, or if you haven't, until you do.
I also don't believe that I ever missed a rune by not having of colors either. (You can hear the sound of them)
Randall
Hrrrm if you don't see it and you miss it then you never know it was there no matter what colour it is, you could still miss it.
To my mind playing pure means no mods - of any kind. I don't trade so I really am not affected, but I do give stuff away and would have to rethink that if I used such a mod. The ears are the best indication =)
It's a mod at least, and since it makes gaming easier for you, I'd also call it a cheat. You circumvent the rules of the game for your own benefit. You may have found the rune anyways, but with RRM it's easier. Methinks it should be considered a cheat. I don't trade so I don't care about that issue...
Quicksilver
21-10-2004, 13:44
I can understand the reasons for using the RRM, but I wouldn't myself. Sure, you might miss rare rune drops if they're surrounded by clutter, but thats part of the game.
I know its probably a daft thing to do, trying to compare D2 to anything realistic, but if it were real, you wouldn't find everything anyway. Heck you probably wouldn't even be able to tell if items were normal/magical/rare etc.
In fact, I sometimes think its ridiculous that its possible to tell that some items are uniques as soon as they drop. Yeah, some of them look different, like Bonesnap, but if you're looking at a pile of items on the ground, you might not notice.
Still, I'm gonna stop rambling now. I think I'm going off the track :lol:
bill_n_opus
21-10-2004, 15:02
A couple of comments for what it's worth ...
- i'm intrigued by the RRM although I don't use it ... yet.
- is it "cheating"? Well, that's a matter of subjectiveness. Do tennis players "cheat" because they need corrective lenses (like contacts) as opposed to the "pure" tennis player with no need for contacts?
Since the RRM does not seem to affect drops but makes looking through big piles of crap easier to find those runes ... then it's kinda in the grey area.
Those people who don't like any outside influence on their gaming of any kind don't like this mod and/or would be hesitant to trade for runes in this fashion - because the other player used a "tool" to make looking through piles easier OR makes gameplay slightly faster OR make sure that runes that may have been missed are harder to miss this time around with the RRM.
- currently I fully accept the risk/chance of missing something good because of a cluttered screen full of items and gold. It happens very often that items are missed or are out of view because the screen can only render so many objects at once. Quite often i'll see something that tweaks my eye and even moving around a fair bit fails to reveal what it was. Usually I have to either pick up the scattered piles of gold around that area before the item is revealed (and yes, this has happened with decent runes too) or actually have to pick up large items and move them around before revealing something.
- personally, if I were to trade - and I don't, I prefer self-found gameplay - I wouldn't have any problem with RRM runes. I don't worry that much that using a "mod" that makes it easier to see something in a sea of white.
The rune dropped anyways with no outside influence apart from the Diablo2 random number generator engine. But that's just me ...
Having said all this I would be quite ticked off if I missed a Zod because I didn't see it ...
It's a mod at least, and since it makes gaming easier for you, I'd also call it a cheat. You circumvent the rules of the game for your own benefit. You may have found the rune anyways, but with RRM it's easier. Methinks it should be considered a cheat. I don't trade so I don't care about that issue...
Well, so does ATMA, and everyone makes good use of it...
Well, so does ATMA, and everyone makes good use of it...
ATMA is a tool that doesn't affect game play. Yea, post-game play, it is a cheat. But it doesn't change the game play experience in anyway. Besides, if ATMA wasn't available, this forum would have a hard time existing. So like everything, some areas are grey but in the case of ATMA, it is a necessity
I see RRM as a real-time cheat/advantage and as others have stated, gives the mod'er an advantage during game time not intended by Blizzard. ATMA doesn't. In fact, ATMA enhances the value of the game by making MF'ing and other adventures possible, leading to more games sales.
Besides, where do you draw the line for game play mods that Blizzard should have included? Changing Baal's clone slightly, putting a loud halo around any FE monster, etc. It gets messy, so I've drawn the line at anything that changes the real-time games experience.
BTW: Off the net, my screenie loaded from the top down and I also saw it pretty quick. During the game, I almost moved on.
Again, IMHO. Since, I'm not 2 months old yet, take it with a grain of salt.
PS to be devils advocate, I do hot-swap gheeds. (another subject)
bill_n_opus
21-10-2004, 16:00
PS to be devils advocate, I do hot-swap gheeds. (another subject)
Off topic:
I've heard about hotswapping Gheeds before but never thought about it until I found my second one not that long ago.
This is what I did:
took out my current Gheeds from my inventory and dropped it on the floor, picked up the unindentified one from the floor and put it in my inventory. Identified it and it was worse than my current one. Dropped it onto the floor and picked up my previous one.
I'm pretty sure that's what I did. Is that what "hotswapping" is? Somehow I don't think so since there's nothing really wrong with what I did. Just like finding another Vipermagi and identifying it and replacing if necessary. What's the big deal about "hotswapping"?
Hotswapping or hotmuling is in a gray area, because you temporarily dupe an item. When you find a Gheeds and already have one, minimize diablo and put your current Gheeds in a stash. At this moment you have duped the Gheeds, because it is in your stash and when you maximize the game again you also have it in your inventory. Now you have to throw your current Gheeds on the ground and pick up the new one you found and carry on gaming.
If you ID the new one and find it not so good as your previous one, don't pick up the old one again, because then you are a duper, haxxor and whatnot and you will be burned, flamed and all that.
Hotswapping or hotmuling is in a gray area, because you temporarily dupe an item.
Technically, your incorrect. You havent duped anything untill you've actualy saved the stash ;)
ATMA is a tool that doesn't affect game play
Being able to transfer items from one character to another is a major influence to game play, i'd say.
ricrestoni
21-10-2004, 19:05
I was meditating about this same thing solo. People say that ATMA is just a tool of muling. people also say that Blizzard made the game this way, and reasonable or not, that is how it should be played. Every mod that changes in-game features, as little as it might be, is condemned.
Follow my logic: Blizzard made single player mode. In that mode, you cannot trade, because you cannot connect with another players. Also, in single player, you get to keep your map between game sessions. This is a SINGLE PLAYER ONLY feature. Now, don't you think that being able to mule WHILE keeping your map for endless runs is a serious gaming advantage? If the game was played like Blizzard designed it, you would have to find a good map, then farm it till you load up a char, then mule it all off by multiplayer mode, losing the map you had before. This would, except for Pindle runs, pose itself as an annoying, unnecessarily time-consuming way to do it. ATMA circumvented it, made it easier, quicker, thus making the game more pleasant for us SPers.
Now the ONLY accusations people make against the Red Rune Mod is that people would have an edge in finding dropped runes, mainly among loads of stuff on the ground. Thus an annoying, unnecessarily time-consuming search would be replaced by a quicker, easier, more pleasant way to locate runes in the area.
And tell me, seriously, if both muling and finding runes on the ground were to be done how Blizzard designed it, which one do you think it would take the most of your time to be done properly? Or, for a practical example, Player A took 10 hours MFing Vanilla way. If he had used ATMA, he would have saved X of his time. If he had used the RRM, he would have saved Y of his time.
If you are with me, you guessed that my conclusion is obvious. X > Y. ATMA is way too good to save time in SP. So I don't accept the "you are supposed to take your time drinking potions and looking with attention to find the runes" excuse. Drinking useless potions and looking with attention to dropped items is boring, and it is not what the game is about, as I see it.
For that reason, i don't have anything against users of the RRM. I don't use it, but might use it in the future, if people who use it convince me that it is worth the troubles of installing it and living with people who might dub me cheater.
So, long post short: For what was said against RRM, I find ATMA much more of a cheating tool than the mod.
I don't agree with you. ATMA is a program that you use outside of Diablo. It has no influence whatsoever on how you play the game, because at that moment it is not active.
A RRM is active during gameplay and therefore influences the game while it runs. I don't know who made all the RRM's available, but some of the RRM's not only change the color of the runes during the game, but also do other things that are less desirable.
A mod that only changes the color of runes is fine with me, but this mod is active during gameplay and I don't have the knowledge to find out what else is in these scripts.
I agree. I was just going with everyone's logic and addepting it to something everyone here at the SPF uses.
My point however still stands. Even your logic is flawed. Convinient, yes- Cheat, yes. Atma is not and will never be a part of D2 itself. It is a third party program, thus banned from use, read the terms of use.
Now personally i don't give a rats ***, i will continue to use ATMA because i agree, muling is something Blizzard should have included in the first place.
Get rid of the double standard, people. RRM and ATMA are both cheats, like it or not. End of the day, its up to you to decide what you will or wont allow yourself to use. But please, don't go on and on about the RRM changes(enhances?) gameplay; Atma was created just for that purpose.
Quicksilver
21-10-2004, 19:22
My point however still stands. Even your logic is flawed. Convinient, yes- Cheat, yes. Atma is not and will never be a part of D2 itself. It is a third party program, thus banned from use, read the terms of use.
Now personally i don't give a rats ***, i will continue to use ATMA because i agree, muling is something Blizzard should have included in the first place.
Get rid of the double standard, people. RRM and ATMA are both cheats, like it or not. End of the day, its up to you to decide what you will or wont allow yourself to use. But please, don't go on and on about the RRM changes(enhances?) gameplay; Atma was created just for that purpose.
Well... it depends on how you look at it. Its perfectly legal and possible to move items if you're playing on BNet or have 2+ computers etc. in a network to host an IP game, but Blizzard designed this so its only possible if you have access to more than one computer. I think thats wrong. I just consider ATMA as 'the other computer', letting me move my items.
But I can see where you're coming from about ATMA also being a cheat, since its 3rd party software.
I don't believe the RRM changes only the color of rune drops. IIRC it also negates some of the power of the FE bug. It alters the game and will keep you from trading with a fair number of purist here in the SPF. I don't trade for my own reasons other than the RRM, but if i were a purist and found out that one was using a mod of any type I would have issues trading with them ever again. You never know what some poeple are willing to trade you for something you may already have 5 or 6 of.
I don't have RRM, but am considering it.
As stated before, there are mods that only make runes red.
There are only 2 arguments that I can think of against using RRM.
1) It gives you an advantage in MP games, cause you can grab runes before other people.
My response to this is how often have you seen a good unique or rune sit on the ground in MP games anyway? Someone either snatches it, or the host decides who gets it.
2) The slippery slope argument. Turning the runes red is technically a modification of the game. Some would argue the only way to play is totally unmodified. Others say that this mod is harmless (anyone seeing where I'm going with this?). Map hack- some people think it's just part of the game, while others (including me) consider it to be really cheap.
I'm a bad person to comment on this point, cause I think slippery slope arguments are dumb.. I mean, I think you can always re-evaluate and prevent actual harmful things, while still allowing useful things..
To sum up, I would have no problem trading with people who had RRM. In the grand scheme of things, if you're going to trade for high level runes, you've got more important things to worry about (aka duping) than what color the runes show up on the other person's screen.
Gabriel74
21-10-2004, 19:29
I'm with ric, there is no way you can say that ATMA doesn't affect game play. What items you keep vs. selling or leaving on the ground. Having vast amounts of armor, weapons, charms, gems, etc. to choose from when you are making a character (obviously this is for those who twink).
If you didn't use ATMA you would have to sell all extraneous stuff. You would, in all liklihood, never get a full set of anything as you would need to make decisions on what items to keep and what to sell. All of the people who try to reroll charm mods with the cube recipe would not have a way to store gems. Claiming that ATMA does not affect gameplay is just ignoring the obvious. The only person that can claim ATMA does not affect his play is someone who ONLY mules off, just so he can see everything he has found. If you EVER mule back on from an ATMA stash, it has effected gameplay.
ATMA user and proud of it. Don't currently use RRM, but think saying it is a cheat is ridiculous for anyone who uses ATMA. (unless you also say ATMA is a cheat, but just don't care.)
I've been watching this thread with interest and finally decided to chime in.
Tweety hit my concern right on the head. ATMA does alter gameplay, if you save map seeds. Otherwise, it just simplifier would you would do in multiplayer, away from your normal gamming action. Turning runes red also saves time (I agree, not much, I found the Lum (Lem? I forgot) in about a second with the image scrunched.
From that angle they both save time. My concern is with multiple Red Run Mods that are changing the game code. I trust CTB's RRM completely but the fact is "Red Rune Mod" is not A mod, its a class of mods. We can't track all of these mods and it is dangerous to lump them all together. From reading this thread I know that I could (Read: it is possible, not I'm going to do it) create a Red Rune Mod that also altered drop probabilities. Obviously that would be super Non-Legit but I could post that I use "The Red Rune Mod, trade accordingly", and I know that a number of people here would trade with me.
Obviously, I would know what I did and would know that what I was doing was not legit. There will always be ways to trick other forum members, but I think that most everyone here are trying to be legit D2 players. My main concern is that we could end up using and accepting a mod (or worse a class of mods) that we don't fully understand.
Wow.
So this has turned from Red Rune Mod to "OMFG LIEK ATMA SI TEH BAD OMGOGMOGMGOBANPLZKTHX!!"
*sigh*
I'll be in the fireproof shelter with Durf playing poker with the squid. Have fun, guys! :wave:
Wow.
So this has turned from Red Rune Mod to "OMFG LIEK ATMA SI TEH BAD OMGOGMOGMGOBANPLZKTHX!!"
*sigh*
I'll be in the fireproof shelter with Durf playing poker with the squid. Have fun, guys! :wave:
Personally i wasn't implying that it was bad, only that in terms of Gameplay, its not really that different from RRM.
But your reaction just goes to show how deep this double standard really roots.
Shagsbeard
21-10-2004, 20:09
No one has pointed out the main difference between ATMA and any other mod, be it RRM or some other one.
In conducting a trade with someone, the knowledge that the other player uses ATMA is assured by the very trade itself. There is no "I wonder if he's playing with a different standard than I do..." when you trade with someone using ATMA. With other mods, there is no implication of use as you trade. The position of the forum is that mods are fine... so long as the people you are trading with know the mods you use. So... ATMA is a mod... but it's a mod the entire community has adopted. RRM is not a standard so must be revealed when trading.
TenYearsGone
21-10-2004, 20:09
Blizzard should do the right thing:
Pay Hakai a bunch of money and buy ATMA. It will no longer be a 3rd party program, hence no longer against the eula (I think that's what it's called) and we'll all be happy.
RRM - they'll change that when the fix the FE bug for us SP'ers...
AlterEgo
21-10-2004, 20:38
So here we have the every-once-in-a-while thread comparing ATMA to mods. They all go the same way as this one has. :)
I'm not saying this is a bad discussion, so carry on as you may - welll except for flaming and spam... But you might be encouraged to know that the 90%+ concensus of this thread can be found in our existing FAQ -> click me (http://www.rpgforums.net/showpost.php?p=1519560&postcount=1). ;)
I think it's interesting to note that only one member called using the RRM a cheat, and one other (me) called characters/items tainted after being in such a game (btw, the FAQ doesn't use either of these terms). You see, we are in the small purist minority. So please don't get too worked up that 2 of your fellow SPFers have a different view than all of the rest of you.
Another interesting note is that of all of the posters in this thread, only Zarhrezz says that he uses the mod. He also states so in his SPF trade posts, so all is good there :thumbsup: All of this discussion is around an issue that doesn't even affect any of you right now - unless you trade with Zarhrezz.
So maybe we all should take a breath, accept the RRMs as mods, ATMA as an excellent 3rd party program (or mod if you want to define it differently than game modders themselves would), and get back to the game. ;)
Gabriel74
21-10-2004, 21:55
It's a mod at least, and since it makes gaming easier for you, I'd also call it a cheat. You circumvent the rules of the game for your own benefit.
With all due respect AE (and that is a lot of respect) I think you misunderstood my reply to this post.
If people want to be completely pure, that is a great thing. If they don't want to trade with those that use RRM that too is fine. Your label of "tainted" I have no problem with. Cheat, however, is a pretty strong word. Rizzo's only definition of something that is cheating is if it makes gaming easier. Is there anyone here that will claim that ATMA has not made playing D2 easier, I know it has for me. It has opened up tons of new opportunities that I would have only had if I decided to MP with a friend of mine, something I did VERY infrequently.
I just thought it was hypocritical to claim one group of people are cheaters for using a program that makes game play easier, but those that use another are not.
To clarify, I am not here claiming that all mods should be allowed or accepted. I don't play mods, I have been intrigued, but haven't played, not on my computer anyways. Telling people they have to disclose, referring to mods that change item drops or make the game easier, as far as how hard it is to kill stuff or level up or modify your char. etc. as not legit, those are all things I agree with.
My problem was that Rizzo said he thought it was a cheat with a definition that was so broad, it would have to include ATMA, something I definitely don't see as a cheat or a mod.
AlterEgo
21-10-2004, 22:32
All good points there Gabriel, well said. :)
By the way, I've been curious about something for awhile. Who in the SPF really does play RTB's RRM (any variety)? Zarhrezz, Nightfish, RTB (probably), but anyone else?
Shagsbeard
21-10-2004, 22:37
All good points there Gabriel, well said. :)
By the way, I've been curious about something for awhile. Who in the SPF really does play RTB's RRM (any variety)? Zarhrezz, Nightfish, RTB (probably), but anyone else?
Not I... only because I'm scared stiff of getting some virus or worm that would destroy my main source of recreation.
Not I... only because I'm scared stiff of getting some virus or worm that would destroy my main source of recreation.
Nah. I can assure you that RTB wouldn't try and h4xx0r your PC.
He's a stat geek. Not a hacker. ;)
(Unless RTB has some secret life none of us know about. *dundundunnnnn*)
Shagsbeard
21-10-2004, 22:52
Nah. I can assure you that RTB wouldn't try and h4xx0r your PC.
He's a stat geek. Not a hacker. ;)
(Unless RTB has some secret life none of us know about. *dundundunnnnn*)
Thanks... but if my dieing grandmother assured me it was safe... I'd still not think it's worth it.
PyroStock
22-10-2004, 00:35
I don't trade, but the RRM is different from ATMA.
ATMA, FARA, excel spreadsheets on the holy grail make organization easier when gameplay is not active. Aside from hotmuling, which many also oppose.
Having your map light up shrines on the map (via maphack) to make them easier to find, a bot to make windforces easier to find or making runes light up red so runes are easier to find... are all making the game easier during the D2 gameplay.
Character editors make the game easier when gameplay is not active, but there you are creating/changing things that could not be done during the game... "I want a L90 Blizzard Sorceress instead of this L89 Meteorb Sorceress, so I'll fix her." Anything ATMA does could be done in the game anyways, the RRM could not be done in the game without the RRM.
I'm not suggesting a bot and the redrune mod are the same, but neither is ATMA & the redrune mod. What people determine as cheating and tainted will vary, but IMO there is a big difference between the RRM and ATMA.
I don't trade, but the RRM is different from ATMA.
ATMA, FARA, excel spreadsheets on the holy grail make organization easier when gameplay is not active. Aside from hotmuling, which many also oppose.
Having your map light up shrines on the map (via maphack) to make them easier to find, a bot to make windforces easier to find or making runes light up red so runes are easier to find... are all making the game easier during the D2 gameplay.
Character editors make the game easier when gameplay is not active, but there you are creating/changing things that could not be done during the game... "I want a L90 Blizzard Sorceress instead of this L89 Meteorb Sorceress, so I'll fix her." Anything ATMA does could be done in the game anyways, the RRM could not be done in the game without the RRM.
I'm not suggesting a bot and the redrune mod are the same, but neither is ATMA & the redrune mod. What people determine as cheating and tainted will vary, but IMO there is a big difference between the RRM and ATMA.
Well i don't believe anyone suggested that they were. What it boils down to is that they are both third party programs that directly(RRM) and indirectly(ATMA) alter gameplay.
I'm noticing alot of people saying "but all it does is allow me to easily.." Well, quite the same could be said about RRM.
Anything ATMA does could be done in the game
Last time i checked Diablo II didn't include any kind of item stash, nor an ulimited money stash size. Not to say that these are bad things, not at all. You just won't happen to find them in actual game ;)
silospen
22-10-2004, 00:49
What is it with these forums? Are we dictated by the patterns of the movements of the planets? Every couple of months we have the same discussions - its hillarious :lol:
Anyway, back on topic, good points guys. I agree with pyrostock. Although you are right, Solo -
"What it boils down to is that they are both third party programs that directly(RRM) and indirectly(ATMA) alter gameplay."
This is true. Can't be argued otherwise. However, it is a little silly. Its like asking me how many times a day I break the law. My answer would be a lot - Often im rushing, or i'm not looking at my speedo and i break the speedlimit.
Therefore, using your arguement, speeding at 1mph above the speedlimit = murder. They are both breaking the law.
It just get a little silly.
PyroStock
22-10-2004, 00:51
Well i don't believe anyone suggested that they were. What it boils down to is that they are both third party programs that directly(RRM) and indirectly(ATMA) alter gameplay.
And I never suggested anyone said they were the same. And a mod which changes D2 music could be argued that it is a 3rd party program that changes gameplay too... so does a bot. Obviously some are more acceptable by the community than others for obvious reasons.
Last time i checked Diablo II didn't include any kind of item stash, nor an ulimited money stash size. Not to say that these are bad things, not at all. You just won't happen to find them in actual game ;)
Sure it does, it's called a L1 character/mule. :) Unlimited money stash = more L1 characters/mules. Just bring them in the game via a 2nd computer.
necrolemming
22-10-2004, 01:21
By the way, I've been curious about something for awhile. Who in the SPF really does play RTB's RRM (any variety)? Zarhrezz, Nightfish, RTB (probably), but anyone else?
I (as well as some members of the other forum I visit) use RTB's RRM with the FE portions removed.
silospen
22-10-2004, 01:28
FE portions?
necrolemming
22-10-2004, 01:31
FE portions?
Yeah. Some versions of the mod contain RTB's mod for reducing FE bug damage.
HBeachBabe
22-10-2004, 01:31
I (as well as some members of the other forum I visit) use RTB's RRM with the FE portions removed.
that would include me as well (as mentioned in my trade thread and on display in the item find thread which seems to have been the impetes for most recent discussions). I stripped the FE portion and it has since been distributed without that part. I once tried the other version you mentioned AE, and yes, it makes significant changes to the game along with Red Runes, including labeling the Baal Clone and giving unlimited light radius, both of which go much too far in altering gameplay.
Of course were it up to me, I'd play the Lucky Charms version of Diablo, with Purple Potions, Mauve Money and green clovers
:lol:
I should let this thread die ... but it a good place for a question.
Is there a "mod" that bring back the red portal? I lost mine and years ago and can't run Pind.
Milamber
22-10-2004, 06:27
Basically I don't see the need for the RRM - you still have to fish through the remaining items to find the red rune, especially if its hidden.
Either that or I am the only one who knows how to read...
Is there a "mod" that bring back the red portal? I lost mine and years ago and can't run Pind.Yup, called 'New Character' ;)
edit:
And those that are clanging on about ATMA, I see it as simply allowing SP users to do what can be done on b.net - so I don't see why it alters gameplay.
B.net.
Find item, creat game drop item, leave, enter with mule, pick up
ATMA.
Find item. Load ATMA. Put item in stash.
Anything ATMA does could be done in the game anyways
That's not true, ask any Mac user. You can not mule off stuff in the game and keep your (good) map.
Both are GAM's with the purpose to improve time at some point. Both are 3th party not made by Blizzard.
Actually, the mod has a advantage for legit concerning Blizzards opinion:
- Blizzard intended people to make mods, it's made some changes (to each new version) to make modding more friendly. (seems they wanted this)
- Blizzard also made some more changes to the save file, make editing files more complicated (added checksum and stuff). (seems they did not wanted this)
ATMA is highly improved muling system and saved a lot of "off-game-time" and I would not want to go without it. Just don not say it has no effect on the game or you could do everything within the game.
Randall
I (as well as some members of the other forum I visit) use RTB's RRM with the FE portions removed.
Again, it's the other way 'round. I added the RRM (by Snowfairy IIRC, was sent to me by lone_wolf) to my mod. If that mod changes more than just runes, I'm gonna have to find a new RRM to replace it.
Nah. I can assure you that RTB wouldn't try and h4xx0r your PC.
He's a stat geek. Not a hacker.
(Unless RTB has some secret life none of us know about. *dundundunnnnn*)
If you would download from my own website, I'd be definatly safe. Unless your nick happens to be Serdash or some variant of that.
Mil: You're forgetting Realm Down for the bnet char :lol:
@RTB:
I think you misunderstood Necrolemming & HBB. What they are saying is that they took your FE (+ added from Snowfairy) RRM mod and removed the FE part (all *.txt) files so it's only RRM mod.
Randall
PyroStock
22-10-2004, 10:11
That's not true, ask any Mac user. You can not mule off stuff in the game and keep your (good) map.
Just don not say it has no effect on the game or you could do everything within the game.
The issue you address specifically applies to only Mac users, and unique Mac problems are not new to them. Likewise, if for some odd reason Blizzard had disabled multiplayer on Macs that wouldn't mean other SPers (the majority) shouldn't mule in multiplayer, rather it's something Mac users need to live with or find a way to work around.
And I never said it has no effect on the game... even changing the sound has an effect on the game.
The fact that they're both 3rd party programs that save time is irrelevant trivia.
That aside, I sincerely doubt anyone would stop using ATMA even if ATMA muling did change the map. I would support that change. :thumbsup:
The issue I addressed is not a unique Mac problem. People on the Mac just see the difference because of them not having ATMA. People (EDIT: on Mickeysoft) can do many memph runs on a good map because of ATMA, this could otherwise not be done within the game (unless you can keep all items within the character).
You claimed that everything done in ATMA could be done within the game. I just mentioned that's not true and provided an example.
The 3rd party trivia was mentioned, because you seem to say that ATMA & the RRM are different based on the fact if it changes something that could not be done in the game.
I never said anything about giving up ATMA, I would not give up ATMA myself. I would give up Dii.net before giving up ATMA ;).
I just say your reasons for saying ATMA is good and RRM is bad are not that clear.
I'm saying both are a GAM (so do you) and that both do something that can NOT be done in the game (here is the difference).
Randall
PyroStock
22-10-2004, 10:43
The issue I addressed is not a unique Mac problem. People on the Mac just see the difference because of them not having ATMA. People can do many memph runs on a good map because of ATMA, this could otherwise not be done within the game (unless you can keep all items within the character).
You claimed that everything done in ATMA could be done within the game. I just mentioned that's not true and provided an example.
Well in that case, you're wrong. :) You can mule and keep the same map without ATMA or any 3rd party program. You can use the -seed command, which Blizzard disabled only on Macs.
I never said anything about giving u ATMA, I would not give up ATMA myself I would give up Dii.net before giving up ATMA ;).
I never said I would give up ATMA either, only if ATMA did change the map every time you loaded up a character then I would support that change & still use ATMA.
The 3rd party trivia was mentioned, because you seem to say that ATMA & the RRM are different based on the fact if it changes something that could not be done in the game.
I just say your reasons for saying ATMA is good and RRM is bad are not that clear.
A bot, character editors & maphack also are 3rd party programs that save time... that doesn't put them on the same level as ATMA. Things are not that black & white.
Well in that case, you're wrong. :) You can mule and keep the same map without ATMA or any 3rd party program. You can use the -seed command, which Blizzard disabled only on Macs.
The -seed command is also a GAM and a blizzard bug, using it is the same as using mods.
EDIT: And how would you know the seed number if you did not have ATMA in the first place !!!
But if you think using command lines is Ok, all you need for a mod is notepad and the command line "-txt -data".
A bot, character editors & maphack also are 3rd party programs that save time... that doesn't put them on the same level as ATMA. Things are not that black & white.
I know things are not black and white. I am not the one against the RRM here. (only passiv pro) But the RRM has less impact on the game as ATMA has. (where hacks/editors have more effect)
Randall
PyroStock
22-10-2004, 11:00
The -seed command is also a GAM and a blizzard bug, using it is the same as using mods.
Well then I'm sure you have a link with Blizzard stating this is a bug or have some way to prove this is a bug. A bug they've never fixed even in 1.10 patch.
But if you think using command lines is Ok, all you need for a mod is notepad and the command line "-txt -data".
Adding a notepad or changing lines in the game's text files is different... that's exactly what the RRM does.
I know things are not black and white. I am not the one against the RRM here. (only passiv pro) But the RRM has less impact on the game as ATMA has. (where hacks/editors have more effect)
I also read some posts by people who thought map hack had little impact on the game. I never try to change anyone's mind. ;)
Did you spot my edit as well
EDIT: And how would you know the seed number if you did not have ATMA in the first place !!!
How would you know the correct seed number when you are not using ATMA ?
Randall
PyroStock
22-10-2004, 11:19
How would you know the correct seed number when you are not using ATMA ?
You don't find a map then use ATMA to get the seed number.
You first use a seed number and keep putting in different ones until you find a map you like. No ATMA ever needed.
Well then I'm sure you have a link with Blizzard stating this is a bug or have some way to prove this is a bug. A bug they've never fixed even in 1.10 patch.
Allthough I doubt there is a link to Blizzard saying it's a bug, you'll find no Blizzard page that says it's a feature as well. It's a hidden command prompt feature.
Adding a notepad or changing lines in the game's text files is different... that's exactly what the RRM does.
Several points here:
- no files are changed, only added
- there are no *.txt files added
- it's using a command prompt feature, just like -seed created by blizzard especially made for the purpose of mods.
Randall
You don't find a map then use ATMA to get the seed number.
You first use a seed number and keep putting in different ones until you find a map you like. No ATMA ever needed.
You know you are saying something that in our SPF faq is noted as something you should not do ?
Our faq says that you should only use it for map recovery.
Randall
PyroStock
22-10-2004, 11:40
Allthough I doubt there is a link to Blizzard saying it's a bug, you'll find now Blizzard page that says it's a feature as well. It's a hidden command prompt feature.
I agree it is a feature. :thumbsup:
Several points here:
- no files are changed, only added
- there are no *.txt files added
- it's using a command prompt feature, just like -seed created by blizzard especially made for the purpose of mods.
So it seems everything ATMA does can be found as a feature elsewhere without ATMA. Yet, without the RRM no command prompt will turn the runes red.
bah! I see no harm in using the RRM so you don't miss a rune. It's not, hrm.. making the game any easier for you. (like a maphack, FE reduction, botting)
ATMA is a great tool indeed, and mod or not, it makes things alot easier compared to highlighting a rune. Not everyone has 2 computers, or the patience to operate both of them every 30 or so runs!
PyroStock
22-10-2004, 11:44
You know you are saying something that in our SPF faq is noted as something you should not do ?
Our faq says that you should only use it for map recovery.
And how would someone know how to recover that map... through ATMA. So if you refused to use ATMA for whatever reason, yet wanted "map recovery" like others here I see no problem.
So it seems everything ATMA does can be found as a feature elsewhere without ATMA. Yet, without the RRM no command prompt will turn the runes red.
But it's the -txt -data command prompt that turnes the runes Red
Randall
PyroStock
22-10-2004, 11:46
Some could argue that only using maphack to highlight shrines on the map isn't as helpful as ATMA either. That's not the point.
PyroStock
22-10-2004, 11:48
But it's the -txt -data command prompt that turnes the runes Red
... with the help of the added files.
And how would someone know how to recover that map... through ATMA.
That's my point of some post ago, you can not or should not. Blizzard never wanted it to do so. It should be random.
So if you refused to use ATMA for whatever reason, yet wanted "map recovery" like others here I see no problem.
You are changing the game at runtime with the (bugged) -seed command in a way it does not work on closed BNet.
Randall
Ok, we are slowly going to a pointless discussion of YES - NO.
I'll leave my opinion where it is and leave this discussion for what it is.
Randall
PyroStock
22-10-2004, 11:58
That's my point of some post ago, you can not or should not. Blizzard never wated it to do so. It should be random.
You have already agreed Blizzard listed the command prompt as a hidden feature. So feel free to elaborate how you know Blizzard's motives for the use for this feature.
You are changing the game at runtime with the (bugged) -seed command in a way it does not work on closed BNet.
So now you're comparing us to closed BNet? :scratch:
Well closed BNet never gets to use "/players8" so that means we can never use it. And we don't have the Duress runeword working offline, so that means they cannot use it either.
Edit: just saw your post.
Edit: just saw your post.
Ok, no problem.
I guess we just have to live with the fact we have a different opinion on this topic ;)
Randall
You are changing the game at runtime with the (bugged) -seed command in a way it does not work on closed BNet.
Bugged? In what way? It works how it should work. Finally.
Bugged? In what way? It works how it should work. Finally.
You are right, but it is correct (or made) from a programmers/test perpective not a players gaming one.
For a programmer/tester it is exactly right.
For a gamer using it (permenently) it is bugged in the way that you can get duplicated items (inclusive duplicated fingerprints), which in my opinion is not right.
Randall
But it was never meant for players, so even though it may seem 'buggy' to them, their point of view isn't relevant when you know what it's supposed to do.
HBeachBabe
23-10-2004, 01:35
the only "bug" re: the seed command is that it was left in the release version when it should have been removed after the beta.
other than that, it is not buggy at all. it does exactly what it should - which is create dupes if the same seed # is used.
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