Basic IAS/Strafe question

[Quillian]

Everyone talks of reaching the 2-frame breakpoint for strafe. Does this mean that (just considering strafe now) enough IAS gear for 9/3 is no different than 11/3?

q

[Shanksie1337]

no

9/3 is much faster and requires more IAS than an 11/3 strafe
when you strafe the first arrow will be fired on the 9th frame, and then you will fire every 3 frames after that until you have fired the full strafe volley. Then when u start a second strafe the first arrow waits for 9 frame and the second one fires 3 frames after that. And so on.

Whereas with 11/3 you have to wait 11 frames for the first arrow to fire, then the subsequent ones are fired every 3 frames.

Now 1 second has 25 frames iirc, so it may not seem like much of a difference, but if you consider the fact that you will fire many many strafe volleys then the delay on the 11/3 will be much more noticeable and the damage over time will be significantly less.

[Quillian]

if all my questions were answered this well I'd ask more :scratch:

ty q

[Kirsty]

Actually, 11/3 will in most cases lead to more damage than 9/3 seeing that the lower amount of IAS gear will automatically lead people to a higher amount of +damage gear.

[Shanksie1337]

hmmmz funny logic, so no ias gear and all +damage gear will give more damage over time? Surely there are lots of holes in this argument?

:very confused:

[Lunatic]

hmmmz funny logic, so no ias gear and all +damage gear will give more damage over time? Surely there are lots of holes in this argument?

:very confused:
Not really , you need less IAS for 11/3 fpa strafe instead of 9/3 fpa strafe. Which means you can use more equipment which adds to dmg. That means it's very good possible you do more dmg over time.

[Kirsty]

yes... that's what I said.

[Shanksie1337]

It's also very possible you will do less damage over time, which was my point, but nvm, as the possible combinations of items/auras/charms/socketings & skill is pretty much infinite. So for every set up where 11/3 > 9/3 i am sure there is a set up where 9/3 > 11/3. Just that in general 9/3 will be yield more damage over time than 11/3 imho as many items have both IAS properties and damage properties, so there is no sacrificing damage to gain IAS.

Also the faster you fire, the more KB chance you have, and the more DS/CS and damage mods like CB/OW have to successfully roll, tho i know you both know this already.

[Kirsty]

You should back up your claims better if you intend to make a general statement such as that. That is just flawed.
If you were talking about a /3 vs /2 strafe then I would say that you have a better case but even there the comparison is extremely difficult. The difference here is however only 2 frames on an attack that is about 33 or 35 frames long assuming a 9 arrow strafe.
Suppose 3000 damage per arrow: total strafe damage = 27000
9/3: damage per frame = 818
11/3: damage per frame = 771
To get the same effective damage for 11/3 as with 9/3 you compare to the 33 frames so you only need ((818-771)*33)/9 = 172 extra damage on your attack. Seeing as amazons have about 600% ED from strafe, gear, dexterity, this means only 25 straight damage extra in your gear. That's not impossible to get when you compare it all.

The difference in IAS gear is:
54% IAS for WSM 10
48% IAS for WSM 5
43% IAS for WSM 0
34% IAS for WSM -10

So you're looking at 2 or 3 hypothetical jewel sockets which allows you to get that 25 damage. If you do less damage per arrow it's even more simple. If you do more damage per arrow then you have a tougher comparison. If you add in open wounds, crushing blow, poison, magic damage, elemental damage... yes well... it all complicates the calculation but it still means that 11/3 is not so often lower in damage than 9/3.

There are probably many combinations where 9/3 turns out to be better than 11/3 but I don't find them as obvious as you.

[Shanksie1337]

Tbh getting mathematical about D2 is pretty pointless, and the main reason i didn't / couldn't produce some statistics to back up my "flawed general statement" is because whilst your numbers are nice, you do have to account for all the factors/mods your example omits. Which is why i left it general in the first place because the real equation would be far too horrible for my poor brain to cope with.

Besides your theory generally implies that items have either IAS or some boost to damage, and that in getting more IAS you'd lose damage, and your example highlights this point from your perspective. ie that getting extra damage is quite easy - which i fully agree with btw. My perspective is merely that getting the extra IAS is also quite easy. A simple (plz don't shoot me here :)) example is the LoH gloves - IAS and a boost to real killing power, so i have both IAS and increased killing power on the same item.

Also i am/was speaking in general terms, (and i didn't really make this clear :o ), my arguement is more "8/2 is better than 11/3", ie you want to shoot as fast as you can, with all the usual considerations. As opposed to a statistical approach comparing particular firing rates.

Hehe to me we are both saying the same thing from different directions, but either way i am calling it a night as i have to be up at 4am :(

[Kirsty]

If you have high elemental damage rather than physical damage then its in the advantage of my case since physical damage which is addable from gear gets a higher multiplication (not to mention less resistance). It still complicates the calculation of course. Poison merely resets the timer, so it's sort of irrelevant.

The only thing the calculation doesn't have is crushing blow and open wounds but the effectiveness of crushing blow goes down per arrow strike anyway and that thus only leaves open wounds.

LoH could be considered a static IAS item, but once you go for other things you can find plenty of damage enhancing alternative gear choices. Depends on the items you get but in the overall 11/3 is just as competitive as 9/3.

the answer to 8/2 vs 11/3 is almost a given, though it can be very specific in IAS values when you pick a WSM 10 weapon.

[Shanksie1337]

Actually reading back over things, i think you proved my point, or rather the way i read this you don't prove yours, but i am tired so i may be opening a whole can of whooopass all over myself, but if it leads to providing me with a better understanding then so be it:

"9/3: damage per frame = 818
11/3: damage per frame = 771"

So over time, ie as more frames happen, the 9/3 will do more damage, the difference in 1 frame is 47 damage, so over say, 1500 frames the difference is 70.5k damage. Which was my inital point, unless ofc this is where the can could get opened :scratch:

Now as you say, you could add damage to your 11/3, but equally I could add damage to my 9/3. What items/jewels/runes you use is where the combinations become endless, but in general the 9/3 does more damage over time, and in my books 70k damage in 1 minute in not to be sniffed at. Yes it will make a difference how i got my faster strafe, but i can get a fair chunk of IAS from "static" sources, ie LoH, Cats/Highlords etc, so the extra IAS hasn't "cost" me damage.

At this point i bid you good night (again), i'll have a read at 4am to see how much egg i have on my face :D

[Kirsty]

There only two static IAS sources, being gloves and amulet. The rest is all changable for damage alternatives. It won't be hard to come up with a combination in favour of 11/3.

[Quillian]

Thanks you two for clearing this up. Its hard to discuss the merits of IAS versus ed without actually listing out the gear choices one might be choosing between. The problem behind the original question was whether to shael a Magewrath that I'm trying to take thru hell. The shael gets me from 11/3 to 10/3, even though I could probably do better from a dps point of view with another choice. But with blind, knockback, a few cold charms and unlimited strafe its fun to have lots of arrows in the air, so the shael it is.

q

[sequoia]

since this thread is so much about IAS, and the main question seems to have been answered, is 10 fps survivable in hell? i can hit 9 fps with my bow, but it sacrifices a lot of gear. i want to hear from experience just how painfully slow 10 fps is.

[Kirsty]

I suggest you test it yourself but think of it this way. A lot of people use Buriza and it shoots at 11fps. Some complain that it is on the slow side but they still do fine... Hence 10 fps should do just fine too.
And personally I find 10fps not to be a problem.

[Shanksie1337]

The slower speeds are perfectly survivable in Hell, i used to play with either 11 or 10 frame strafe when i first started playing zons and had no problems killing or staying alive.