PvP Bearsin Idea - Looking for feedback

[ilkori]

New random idea: Bearsin. Don't know if it has been done, but the assassin is one class I have never seen transformed.

Attack Speed Calculator: http://students.washington.edu/akrinke/wereformadvanced.html
- it uses a -BWS... read carefully. On a side note, does anyone happen to know how dual-wielding affects were-forms?


This build will require some serious pre-buffing. Let me re-phrase this: It would never work without pre-buffing taken to the extreme.

I was thinking transforming into a bear, then swapping to a 3-shael 3-eth phase blade. This will give a 4-frame attack with no additional IAS (total equipment freedom). The Eth runes would be so you could actually hit something since you could only get AR bonuses from enchant. From there all the usual PvP rules apply.

Pros
Great Life
Great Defence (really great, actually)
Fast attack
Freedom with equipment (no additional IAS requirements outside weapon)
Lots of free skill points (so far)


Cons
Lots of patience/time with prebuffing to make it work well
Designer lacks PvP exp. :(
Very few skills can be used in bear form, restricting a lot of stuff.
Slower block/hit recovery animations in bear form
As always, poison can be reduced



Skills:
Venom is a must, but no attack skills really need maxing... leaving a lot of room for other stuff. The problem is that many of the usual skills aren't usable in bear form.

20 Venom
20 Shadow Master - great excuse to max her
1/20 Fade - you won't need IAS, but R/W will be low
1+ BoS - speed is good, especially if you want to catch casters
??? this build doesn't or cannot use a lot of things. Buffing CoS might work for defence, but it'll be hard to cast during duels.


Fighting Gear: - basic list subject to many many changes
-Beast/Lidless on switch to cast bear
-Phase with 3x shael, 3x eth - to attack
Bramble + Trangs (must, also for buffing)
Shael's Stormshield (slow-*** blocking)
Gore's
Crafted Blood Belt
Goreriders
Metalgrid with crafted blood rings (ar n resists)
Some Helm - not sure here honestly; Guilame's perhaps.


Skills to Buff
BO/BC
Venom, Shadow Master
Fade/BoS
Enchant


Anyway, that was random idea to keep me from homework for the night. Please shoot holes in this theory, I'm more than happy to admit I know little to nothing about high level PvP. Maybe this could be used in melee-only duels.

[Nomad_k9]

Well i wouldn't know really against wich class she would shine
What kind of Def would she get ?
Erhm AR issues ?
4fps attacks might be nice maybe to keep opponents in hit recovery....if the AR is good enough.
What about an Azurewrath it would get to 6fps (with some more ias) and would actually dish out damage.


Just some quick questions i could come up with, it might be funny to try it out though.

[lextalionis]

I don't know if this helps but you may want to think about investing points in skills you want your SW to help. Bear with me(bad pun). In bear form you can't cast anything so your Right click should be left completely open. Left click will be normal attack, not great for the SW, but again, you can make your SW cast spells for you. The options are pretty open:

Traps are available. Since you only will max Venom/Fade(Will you even, since you might want BoS)/SWarrior you have some free skill points.

BoI might be very nice since you just get the SW to cast one PS charge then switch to BoI, and then she'll chill your prey.

Don't forget she can cast your one skill wonder skills as well. Mindblast. Cloak of Shadows. This is probably where you will get the most utilty.

[ilkori]

I had totally forgotten about the Warrior. Good call, now if only I can figure a good way to keep her alive.


I have absolutely no idea how well this thing would do, it's just a random idea. The main point is to dish out as much venom damage as possible with some OW/CB added on the side.


Defence

Base Defense = 2496 500 Storm Shield
450 Giant Skull (Use this rather than Guilame's)
800 Bramble
70 Trang-Oul's Claws
140 Verdungo's (Cliche, but more predictable than crafted)
160 Gores
325 Metalgrid
50 Dexterity (200ish dex is needed for max block with SS)


Defense Bonuses = +145% ~50% Bear (actual will depend on how many +skills I buff with)
95% Cloak of Shadows


Final Defence = 2496 * (1 + 145/100) = 6115 defence +/- based on specifics of equipment


Attack Rating
Attack rating will suck, but that is the main reason for the Eth runes. Azurewrath wouldn't be a very good idea because you would lose those eths.

3 Eth runes give -75% target defence. This is halved against players, resulting in -37.5% Player defence. Rather than dealing with the opponent's defence here, we'll convert it into an effective attack rating multiplier. They are left with 62.5% of their original defence, which turns into an AR mutliplier of 1.6 which is multiplicative with other bonuses. If the attack speed is dropped to 5 frames (change 1 shael to an eth rune) the AR multiplier is upgraded to 2.

Level 23 Enchant will give you a bit more than a 200% bonus to attack rating which will effectively tripple the base attack rating.

Base Attack Rating = 2010 450 Metalgrid
200 Raven
200 Raven
180 9x x/20
980 Desterity


Display Attack Rating = 2010 * 3 = 6030
Effective Attack Rating = 9648

Swapping to Angelics would increase this to 3320 base and 15936 effective AR. If it is dropped to a 5-frame attack then the effective attack rating is 19920 using angelics.




Hope that answers some of the questions here. When I have some more time I'll figure out the approx final life on the she-bear.

[skygoneblue]

2 things:

1. If you want to dish out a lot of Venom, CB, and OW quickly, there is a skill called Dragon Talon that you may want to explore. ;)

2. I may be wrong on this, but with the Eth -Target defense. that will only work on their base defense. So, if you use that against a Barbarian with a base defense of 5000, who has shouted it up to 20,000 (just for random example), the 37.5% will only come off of the 5000. I may be wrong, but I thnk that's how it works.

[lextalionis]

Ok, I'm being so helpful today.

What about Claws? They are like wierd fast. When you throw 55 IAS Runic Talons into the Werebear calculator and they actually attack at 3fpa. I was amazed. Very amazed. But that means that you can throw a three sheal runic talon into build and it works. This is one point more base damage, one frame faster, plus you can now use CM to up your damage. A Bartucs would be a five frame per attack.

Double check my findings on attack speed with claws. But I'm pretty sure I'm right. If so that's the fastest melee attack in the game. Wow, now I'm excited. Plus you'd get to use Claw Mastery to help you with your attack rating. Now your starting to have a build. That's three skills to max Venom, Claw Mastery, and Shadow Warrior/Master. ( I doubt it, but can you cast SW in Bear form, it is a minion?)

[skygoneblue]

OH! Good call Lexy!

Actually, if you're on USE NL, I have a 3 socket Runic Talon with +1 to Venom if you're interested! :thumbsup: I could part with it for experiement's sake.

[lextalionis]

2 things:

1. If you want to dish out a lot of Venom, CB, and OW quickly, there is a skill called Dragon Talon that you may want to explore. ;)



Ilkori knows about as much as we do. He's trying the build to do something different and to look at the possible benefits. Of which we may have found a huge one. If the attack speed is actually 3fpa. That's faster than DTalon which can only be 7/3/3/3/3.

[skygoneblue]

Wouldn't your Burst of Speed aura still be in effect in Bear form? That can get 55 IAS easily with buff gear. Heck, check the calculator! Can we get 2FPA??? :lol:

That would even free up room for 3 5/-5 poison facets in the claw! :thumbsup:

[lextalionis]

Wouldn't your Burst of Speed aura still be in effect in Bear form? That can get 55 IAS easily with buff gear. Heck, check the calculator! Can we get 2FPA??? :lol:

That would even free up room for 3 5/-5 poison facets in the claw! :thumbsup:
I know you don't play bears often, but BoS while it will help your footspeed considerably and that alone maybe reason enough to use it. Will barely effect your attack speed. Wereforms calculate their attack speed almost completely independant of IAS with the exception of IAS directly on the weapon. Same is for other classes in wereform. There maybe a way to use a jewel with 20ED 15 IAS, because you'll still hit the last breakpoint, but i doubt even with high levels of BoS that you will be able to hit 3 frames per attack with any facets in your claw.

[Nomad_k9]

I'd still opt for the phaseblade since it has the same base speed runic talons have. Anyways you'd need 110 ias to reach 4fps with that sword, maybe if you have insane AR it might work by keeping the opponent in hit recovery.

[lextalionis]

I'd still opt for the phaseblade since it has the same base speed runic talons have.

Btw i'm kinda wondering wich calculator should be used the Wereform calculator or the sin calculator?


Nomad. Use this calculator: http://students.washington.edu/akrinke/wereformadvanced.html

Base speed isn't everything. The weapon animation goes into the equation as well. IE different characters swing swords faster than axes, while other characters are the opposite. Here using a Claw makes an enormous difference. and allows in general for you to attack at one frame faster than anyone else.

[Nomad_k9]

Sorry just edited my post i allready used that link to calculate speed, thats why i was wondering how Ikori came to 4fps with only 3 shaels in the phaseblade

[lextalionis]

Will a Shadow Warrior Spam PH if you put that on your left click? That might help to keep him alive been her casting things? It would be an AI thing.

[lextalionis]

Sorry just edited my post i allready used that link to calculate speed, thats why i was wondering how Ikori came to 4fps with only 3 shaels in the phaseblade

When you put in base speed on the item, you have to use the negative of the base speed shone on the arreat summit site. So a phaseblade is a one handed sword with 30 not -30 as the base weapon speed. Don't ask why it works that way, but that's the way the calculator works and they couldn't easily get it to work anyother way. But when I ran it, I got that indeed you could use a phaseblade with 60 wias and get to 4frames.

[Nomad_k9]

Doubtfull she will "spam" mindblast but a lvl 20+ tigerstrike could do the trick since minions have a 50% pvp penalty as opposed to the regular 83%.

[lextalionis]

Doubtfull she will "spam" mindblast but a lvl 20+ tigerstrike could do the trick since minions have a 50% pvp penalty as opposed to the regular 83%.
She could spawn with some really bad base claws though. I do like the idea though. I think we are thinking in the right direction. And the 50% pvp penatly is something that would work across the board with damage, not just with TS. So maybe we should find a skill less item dependant. Since the items are so random.

[Nomad_k9]

When you put in base speed on the item, you have to use the negative of the base speed shone on the arreat summit site. So a phaseblade is a one handed sword with 30 not -30 as the base weapon speed. Don't ask why it works that way, but that's the way the calculator works and they couldn't easily get it to work anyother way. But when I ran it, I got that indeed you could use a phaseblade with 60 wias and get to 4frames.


Enlighten (http://home.wanadoo.nl/pgrvos/pics/phase.jpg) me cause i don't think i'm doing anything wrong here. On a sidenote i do know that maulers use 4xshael 2x40/15 ias jewels because they need 110 ias to get to 4fps.

[lextalionis]

Enlighten (http://home.wanadoo.nl/pgrvos/pics/phase.jpg) me cause i don't think i'm doing anything wrong here. On a sidenote i do know that maulers use 4xshael 2x40/15 ias jewels because they need 110 ias to get to 4fps.
Great Idea the screen shot helps a ton. Change the character class from Druid to assassin. Assassins are much faster with 1 handed swords than Druids.

[lextalionis]

You can do even better with this because you could get a cruel runic talon of quickness and I think you could socket that with shaels and ED/IAS jewels to make a darn good PvP character.

[Nomad_k9]

I'm here by officially stealing this idea :lol:

[lextalionis]

I'm here by officially stealing this idea :lol:

We posted it here. Do your best with it.

Can you get 40IAS on a magic claw with three sockets? If so then its possible to hit 2fpa.

When I did this in Single Player it was the fastest attack that I've ever seen it has virtually no animation. Noticably quicker than 4fpa.

[Nomad_k9]

Right now i would say that you can't go beyond 3 fps. I doubted i would see the difference between 3 and 4 fps but it's clearly faster. I did notice that the calculator doesn't support claws fully though since bartucs should be able to get 4fps....while they are nowhere near the 3 shaeled phase blade.

edit: i think all attacks are capped at 3 fps due to the graphic engine or something like that.

[ilkori]

WOW, I wasn't expecting this many replies this fast!i think all attacks are capped at 3 fps due to the graphic engine or something like that.First I've heard that, but it's a possiblity... on second thought, I think you may be right. IIRC that was the reason Talon has a 7/3/3/3 rather than a 7/2/2/2 speed. Anyone want to verify this?

1. If you want to dish out a lot of Venom, CB, and OW quickly, there is a skill called Dragon Talon that you may want to explore.

2. I may be wrong on this, but with the Eth -Target defense. that will only work on their base defense. So, if you use that against a Barbarian with a base defense of 5000, who has shouted it up to 20,000 (just for random example), the 37.5% will only come off of the 5000. I may be wrong, but I thnk that's how it works.
1.) Thanks, kickers are fun; I wanted to try something new.

2.) No, actually Eth runes are applied to final defence, and against players the effect is halved. Each eth will take off 12.5% of the opponent's defence. Look for it on the Amazon Basin, that's where I got my info from (Adeyke if I remember right).

Ilkori knows about as much as we do. He's trying the build to do something different and to look at the possible benefits. Of which we may have found a huge one. If the attack speed is actually 3fpa. That's faster than DTalon which can only be 7/3/3/3/3.Not only that, but you barely get a penalty for getting your animation inturrupted. Having longer kick sequences with Talon usually ends up hurting you despite the faster average attack speed.

Phase vs ClawGood call on the claws. A sexy rare at 3fpa or a 3x shael'd jeweler's runic of quickness would definitely do the trick. I just read about that on the sister thread (http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=d2-skills&t=126219&p=1#post126219). Not only that, but Claw Mastery should come back into play.

From what I remember about wereform attack speeds (I made a niftly little calculator for myself this summer "just because I could" and to help myself understand the interplay of the numbers.) There is a nastly little cap of 75 in the middle of the IAS equation limiting the usefulness of everything but Weapon IAS in the formula. Play around having no extra IAS bonuses but on the weapon, you'll notice that only the slow attack (7+frames usually) are even effected by Skill IAS or off-weapon IAS.

I'm here by officially stealing this idea Go for it. I would have used it myself if I had the money to blow. :D As fair warning, someone who avidly PvPs has detailed the limitations of this build PvP unless we can tweak out a lot more from it. The claw itself may have done that, I'm not sure.

[Nomad_k9]

Actually you can get very decent damage from a cruel feral claw of quickeness the beauty of the thing is you need 55 ias to hit 3 fps, so ed ias jewel and a zod in an ethereal one? Offcourse finding such a claw is virtually imposible, ive checked my rares collection and the best i came up with was a 28x% -20base +30 ias claw(unsocketed).

[lextalionis]

Actually you can get very decent damage from a cruel feral claw of quickeness the beauty of the thing is you need 55 ias to hit 3 fps, so ed ias jewel and a zod in an ethereal one? Offcourse finding such a claw is virtually imposible, ive checked my rares collection and the best i came up with was a 28x% -20base +30 ias claw(unsocketed).

someone is going to be doing some rerolling. Even with Claw Mastery and Venom you aren't going to be doing great damage without a good claw. And you won't have any support skills unless you can make the SW do your bidding well.

But it does look like two frames per attack is possible with the Artisan's runic talons of quickness socketed with three shaels.

The question is it worth it to get to 2fpa verses 3fpa with something else with a lot more damage and good mods.

[ilkori]

I'm starting to think the 2s rare or socketed cruel of quickness are the two options that would work best. Checked my collection, and my best rares have "ok" ed and fools... but not enough IAS, or they are too slow (wrong type). I'll definitely have to do some more shopping for this. :D Nothing like gambling claws - they can be fairly cheap and generally kick butt.

[Mooker899]

I'm starting to think the 2s rare or socketed cruel of quickness are the two options that would work best. Checked my collection, and my best rares have "ok" ed and fools... but not enough IAS, or they are too slow (wrong type). I'll definitely have to do some more shopping for this. :D Nothing like gambling claws - they can be fairly cheap and generally kick butt.

I've seen plenty of 'bearsins" on usEast NL they Transform, then usually try to run at you and wack lol. Maybe you can change the bad rep, but so far I haven't seen I good one.

[ilkori]

Apparently someone did some asking around and the claw attacks are capped at 4 frames... sooo... I guess it might be time to pick some other weapons with more oomph and a few other things.

[Nomad_k9]

Hmm funny the animation must screw up then if you get more ias

[inkanddagger]

Apparently someone did some asking around and the claw attacks are capped at 4 frames... sooo... I guess it might be time to pick some other weapons with more oomph and a few other things.


who did you ask? prove it.

[Lunatic]

Also , there's something called next delay aswell. And AFAIK it applies to all attacks. Which means getting up to 3 frames would mean that every 2nd attack would miss. Which means you're just a good / bad off with a 6 fpa attack. If this is the case here aswell then you're better off with a 4 fpa attack.

[inkanddagger]

I didn't think nexdelay applied here.

i remember i did some moding in 09 and got a demon machine to 3 fpa on a werebear, but no physical damage was applied, only elemental.

not sure if this would still be the case.

[Baranor]

Ok, I'm being so helpful today.

What about Claws? They are like wierd fast. When you throw 55 IAS Runic Talons into the Werebear calculator and they actually attack at 3fpa.
no its not. 4 fpa is the fastest. a WB running at 3 fpa (6 shael -60 crossbow can hit it too) misses the critical damage frame, meaning only some effects of an attack hit and not all. in effect, attacking at 3 fpa is pointles. 4 fpa, its been tested, is what you want to use.

at 4 fpa I suggest you use something with crushing blow, it would be silly not to exploit the fastest attack in the game for CB.

[Lunatic]

no its not. 4 fpa is the fastest. a WB running at 3 fpa (6 shael -60 crossbow can hit it too) misses the critical damage frame, meaning only some effects of an attack hit and not all. in effect, attacking at 3 fpa is pointles. 4 fpa, its been tested, is what you want to use.

at 4 fpa I suggest you use something with crushing blow, it would be silly not to exploit the fastest attack in the game for CB.
Well the weird thing about the 3 fpa attack with bears (with the demon xbow IIRC) is that elemental dmg is applied. So it does do the dmg frame , otherwise no dmg would be done here aswell. The weird part is that the physical dmg part is completely taken out of there though. :D

[Cybulski]

ahh that sucks, would be cool to hit 3 fpa :).

oh and btw, if you ast bos as non-bear, will it still affect the bears rw speed?
Not the attackspeed since it must be wias.

[lextalionis]

Apparently someone did some asking around and the claw attacks are capped at 4 frames... sooo... I guess it might be time to pick some other weapons with more oomph and a few other things.

Still planning on using claws? Which claws if you are? CM probably won't completely fix AR problems or Damage Problems. But you could use upped Bartucs, STRENGTH Claw for CB. You also could get use the sockets in a magical claw or rare claw since getting to 4 frames is easy with a claw you won't have to use a bunch of shaels to do it. So the slots are open.

[Nomad_k9]

no its not. 4 fpa is the fastest. a WB running at 3 fpa (6 shael -60 crossbow can hit it too) misses the critical damage frame, meaning only some effects of an attack hit and not all. in effect, attacking at 3 fpa is pointles. 4 fpa, its been tested, is what you want to use.

at 4 fpa I suggest you use something with crushing blow, it would be silly not to exploit the fastest attack in the game for CB. well CB is rather pointless in PvP and well 4fps isn't all that special really.

[ilkori]

oh and btw, if you ast bos as non-bear, will it still affect the bears rw speed?
Not the attackspeed since it must be wias.I've never done it, but I assume it would work. I cannot think of any reason that it would not work.

Still planning on using claws? Which claws?I was thinking some rare claws with 200+% ED, Fools, IAS, and two sockets to use Eth runes. Chaos would be the default if you didn't have those claws, and Bartucs could be used for a cheap option. Fury or Wind might be good also; I'm still not sure what would work best.

well CB is rather pointless in PvP and well 4fps isn't all that special really.CB is highly underrated in PvP games. It helps tons against high life opponents when it takes more than 5 hits to kill. Granted there are more imporant things to consider, but I have a hard time turning down some free damage. As for the speed, the 4fpa is rather special considering how easily an assassin can get 4fpa using claws in bear form.


I'll try to track down the original source of the 4-frame cap on claw attacks. It was testing via some forum... but I don't know which one. My source (mikeandroe) has been reliable in my experience, and I would trust hit decision on this.

[lextalionis]

When I put one together in single player I was able to get the damage up to about 6K damage with Cruel Runic Talons. I'm not sure if the screen was correctly computing Venom damage or not. I also don't know if it would be smart to load up on Poison charms with Venom. Good because you have facets, but that's if Venom doesn't overide it.l

[skygoneblue]

Charms don't do a damn thing with Venom active. I did the math one day, and 290s end up adding about 11 damage total to your poison. Waste, huh?

[Clan_Iraq]

OOOkkkkk.




I saw this thread late.



I built this char months ago, and have been dueling with it on useast softcore ladder since.

Some things:

Yes, 3 fpa > 4 fpa, the rest of you are dumbasses

Get a fools / quickness runic/greater talons, you need the ar

dual claws DO NOT WORK, weapon block only applies to non-morphed




If anyone wants to see my build, give a holler

[Zero-unit]

Well, looking through this thread. I myself have tested with Bearsins (Only in single player.) and have rather prefected a build for it. It seems you forgot that Fade adds damage reduction, and an extra skill you can use with it is also Blade Shield. Now with this type of build ide mainly let Venom be my source of damage and try to obtain the most speed as possible. And for those who don't look/think closely 55% IAS on a Runic Talon is 4 frames where as 95% IAS is 3. (And it is possible to get 3 frames, Jewelers Runic Talon of Quickness.) Prebuffing will be the most important thing to this, and its major downfall is its defense. Compared to others its defense is inferior to dodge any blows, you would mainly have to rely on you block for this. Life expectancy isn't all that great unless you use a Call to Arms.(Even then the duration isnt worth it.) BoS does NOT help your IAS but it does increase your running/walking speed. This is all I really have to point out, other than that its PvP capabilities in my opinion would either be ranked to take on kickers, and if lucky the Druids.

Dr@kE~

[lextalionis]

Drake,

Glad you caught this thread. I know you know a lot about non-druid wereforms. I agree we left off Blade Shield. How many points are you putting into Blade Shield?

Do you think there are any good uses of SW/SM on this build? What would you suggest?

Fade got an early mention. But we have all been trying to figure out how much Runwalk we'd need in PvP. So I think its been more of a gut instinct that we would use Fade, but then not wanting to forget that BoS would help with Runwalk we've talked about it more. That being said... Which do you feel is better?

Does increased CoS help this build? I thought that it multiplied your defense in some wierd way that made it very useful when you had high defense. Something about it being figured last after you were already buffed by stuff like Defiance. This might have been a Beta feature that was changed. (I do know that CoS isn't as helpful for your AR to hit someone else). Wouldn't a SW/SM be pretty good at actually hitting a PvP opponent with CoS?
____________-
Clan Iraq,

Good to have your expertise as well. Please feel free to chime in on any question here.

Good to know that Weapon Block doesn't work in Werebear mode. I would have thought that it would've, but I wasn't planning on using dual claws anyway, since I wanted to get my defense as high as possible and wanted to get max block.

Why do you think that the 3fpa > 4fpa? I'm not saying its not, but I'd like you to refute what people have already said. Is it just so you aren't interupted?

[Zero-unit]

Personally since this type of build doesn't have that many demanding skills, I maxed Blade Shield. It provides me a logner duration and more damage that way. Now about Fade and BoS, I think Fade is your best option here due to the fact this would be a horrible runner so you would need minimal, seeing this fact tells you its only as good as far as melee vrs melee.. (Slow block, FHR frames.) Shadow summons definatly, theyr'e the best summons in the game! Unfortunatly you might have to forget about the CoS. Think even if maxed and level 37 or so it still gives you amuch less duration than your shift, doesn't make it worth while to deshift cast and then reshift with a much lower prebuff than you could have. However as you asked you can always have your shadow cast it. The bonus from prebuffing is more important than anything in this build. I wish I had more insight of info than this but im limited to single player only.

Dr@kE~

[Lunatic]

OOOkkkkk.




I saw this thread late.



I built this char months ago, and have been dueling with it on useast softcore ladder since.

Some things:

Yes, 3 fpa > 4 fpa, the rest of you are dumbasses

Get a fools / quickness runic/greater talons, you need the ar

dual claws DO NOT WORK, weapon block only applies to non-morphed




If anyone wants to see my build, give a holler
You really have a nice way with words.

[Zero-unit]

If any one here is testing this Weresin build on USEast non-ladder I would like some insights with them.

Dr@kE~

[lextalionis]

However as you asked you can always have your shadow cast it. The bonus from prebuffing is more important than anything in this build. I wish I had more insight of info than this but im limited to single player only.

Dr@kE~

If you have Shadow Warrior you can choose what the Shadow Warrior will cast by keeping it on your Right click. This gives you some control of what the Shadow Warrior will be casting and doing. I don't have much PvP experience either, so I don't know how the Shadow AI works in battles.

[lextalionis]

I think the other question is how much benefit is CoS anyway in PvP? Is it worth getting your SW to cast it. Does it make you and your Shadow harder to hit? I don't think its terribly significant in the forms of helping you hit your opponent, but again I don't have a ton of PvP experience.

[Zero-unit]

Shadow Warrior is controlled by both left and right click commands, now since they are reliant on what level your skills are to be effective having them cast it would be effective to some extent. As you know -defense only works on their enhanced defense, so its not all that great though it helps. Unfortunatly I don't think it will increase your defense.

Dr@kE~

[Clan_Iraq]

As the only one actually experienced dueling with this, I'll give some more insight:

Shadow warrior is a waste of time. All they would be able to do is mindblast, which would not affect uninteruptable skills (zeal,concentrate, ect)

I have found that any other char that has an interuptable melee attack is nothing to worry about.
I have only once lost a fireclaws druid more then once, and same goes for melee sorcs. Charged strike zons get locked too quickly for them to do anything. Kickers can be pretty close, but I haven't lost to one.

The main problem dueling with this is zealots. Alot only take 1 hit, since I'm on ladder, but assassin defense is way way too low to compete. Barbs are a tossup.




Blade shield wouldn't really work, just as cta doesnt work well either, since the duration is too short. If you plan on going pure werebear, it might be worth it, but I happen to find this works perfectly with the gear on my ww assn.


Oh and, dont even try to duel smiters. The 1 range on claws makes it near-impossible to hit them, so I just switch to whirlwind and be done with it.

[Zero-unit]

Blade Shield helps regardless since we have extra points and its a decent source of damage, Shadow Warrior is the solution to any random attack problems you were talking about Shadow Master. I wouldn't duel a Zealot or Smiter either, now about the Fireclaw and Firesorc classes thats an easy thing to take care of. Fade does alot of the work then stack some more resist if needed then absorb.

Dr@kE~

[BIGeyedBUG]

Oh and, dont even try to duel smiters. The 1 range on claws makes it near-impossible to hit them, so I just switch to whirlwind and be done with it.

Claws are all range 2 in 1.1.

[lextalionis]

I have found that any other char that has an interuptable melee attack is nothing to worry about.
I have only once lost a fireclaws druid more then once, and same goes for melee sorcs. Charged strike zons get locked too quickly for them to do anything. Kickers can be pretty close, but I haven't lost to one.


Is this why 3fpa is better than 4fpa even if one of them doesn't hit for physical damage?

And are you WWing some, then transforming, then untransforming and WWing?

[Clan_Iraq]

Is this why 3fpa is better than 4fpa even if one of them doesn't hit for physical damage?

And are you WWing some, then transforming, then untransforming and WWing?


Why would I both WW and use bear?
In no way is a werebear more powerful then whirlwind, but the difference is its melee. I'm talking about what I can kill in werebear form, since anyone can kill pretty much anything with ww. Its more just useful for humoring people.

In this case the 3 fpa w/o physical, if that really is true (I am certain it isn't, since I affect bone armor on necromancers), is irrelevant. Which is better, 3k poison damage at 3 frame attack, or 3k poison damage + 200 melee at 4 frame attack?

Once again I'm sure you are wrong about 3 frame attacks not doing physical damage, for several reasons:
- I affect bone armor
- I kill bone prisons (immune to psn)
- I kill oak sages (immune to psn)
- I have killed people without venom on. Geez, thats kinda a give-away.



If anyone wants to test this just say so

[Metroid_01]

well, i saw this post and became very interested in it after forgetting my old bearsin. hehe. i did some open testing with a bear using a very sexy "self made" claw. gave it all the legit fixings and junk. anyway i didnt quite hit what id call the 3 breakpoint because later i wasnt sure if there was a diff between that and my claw that i was throwing random runes in to see what was best. so i copied it and gave it 100% ias instead of the normal 40%. i then noticed a huge difference. im guessing thats the 3 frame hit because it was daaaaamn fast. anyways i figured without any external ias about 100% total (60% inherant + 40% from shaels) on the claw will do it. of cource we cant hit 100% ias on a claw. 80% (40%-quickness mod + 40% from 2 shaels) and bos doesnt quite reach but i think its close. anyways, i tried this without venom (doing pure physical damage) and she killed just fine. so im not so sure how the faster frames = no phys thing comes into play.

Edit: i just tried throwing in 200% more ias from some jewels, and it appears somewhere in the first 100% (between 140% ias and 200%) you hit the final breakpoint...prolly 2 so it is possible. still though, phys works...and you attack faster than a zealot could even fathom haha.

[Clan_Iraq]

well, i saw this post and became very interested in it after forgetting my old bearsin. hehe. i did some open testing with a bear using a very sexy "self made" claw. gave it all the legit fixings and junk. anyway i didnt quite hit what id call the 3 breakpoint because later i wasnt sure if there was a diff between that and my claw that i was throwing random runes in to see what was best. so i copied it and gave it 100% ias instead of the normal 40%. i then noticed a huge difference. im guessing thats the 3 frame hit because it was daaaaamn fast. anyways i figured without any external ias about 100% total (60% inherant + 40% from shaels) on the claw will do it. of cource we cant hit 100% ias on a claw. 80% (40%-quickness mod + 40% from 2 shaels) and bos doesnt quite reach but i think its close. anyways, i tried this without venom (doing pure physical damage) and she killed just fine. so im not so sure how the faster frames = no phys thing comes into play.

Edit: i just tried throwing in 200% more ias from some jewels, and it appears somewhere in the first 100% (between 140% ias and 200%) you hit the final breakpoint...prolly 2 so it is possible. still though, phys works...and you attack faster than a zealot could even fathom haha.




Use this link:

http://students.washington.edu/akrinke/wereformadvanced.html



I've dueled zealots, and sure, you can hit faster then them, but zeal is uninterruptable.

Werebear normal attack is not.





--- oh and, the final breakpoint gets it to either 0 or 1 frame attack, I dont think there is a difference. You won't even see your char swing.

[Metroid_01]

Use this link:

http://students.washington.edu/akrinke/wereformadvanced.html



I've dueled zealots, and sure, you can hit faster then them, but zeal is uninterruptable.

Werebear normal attack is not.





--- oh and, the final breakpoint gets it to either 0 or 1 frame attack, I dont think there is a difference. You won't even see your char swing.

well it looks like according to this thing that what i hit was the 3/2 frames rate. i used ONLY ias on the weapon itself and nothing else to hit these breakpoints, and the calc seems entirely accurate. at 80 it was one speed at 100 it was faster. the comment bout the speed was more of a "cool" kinda thing. more like, those pallies are gonna crap themselves when they see you attack so much faster hehe.

anyway i was looking at an idea for a build for this sin, and i was thinking the best build would be all out physical. basically one focused on crushing blow/deadly strike/open wounds, and pumping a ton of phys damage. of cource the vital key to this (and what makes it so hard to pull off..) is a good claw. obviously when i made her i constructed a perfect godly eth claw, which would be extremely rare to ever get yourself. but done like that the damage is rather impressive. i had her hitting 2000-4500 when all was said and done. (95% phys, psn from lvl 20 venom and some cold damage from her duress i think it was...). this is a very nice and viable build.....but woo some of the parts are pretty damn rare.

Edit: had the damage wrong ><

[Clan_Iraq]

Yah I'm still looking for a godly claw on ladder :(


Your best bet is shopping a fools greater talons of quickness, and putting in a shael.


In the meantime I'm using 3x shael runic talons :/

[Zero-unit]

FYI 55% break is 4 frames.

Dr@kE~

[Tor]

try angelics for AR (druid passing through ^^)

[lextalionis]

I just thought I would warn everybody that people are starting to get interested in this build again and they may be asking questions. Some of which I didn't have answers to, like how fast will a Shadow Warrior Cast things like Pyschic Hammer and Mind Blast in PvP?

http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?p=2765105#post2765105

[Zero-unit]

What as a Weresin? Specify a bit.

Dr@kE~

[ilkori]

From the ilkori's bastardized D2 dictionary and encyclopedia:

Weresin n
1) A member of the assassin class with unholy blood allowing it to transform shapes into unnatural beasts. They are rumored to have tougher hides and be very quick, but sucumb to feral tendencies.

[Kosmos]

Suck on this beauty :thumbsup:

http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload0/godlyclaw01.jpg

im going to stick in a ed/ias jewel in there and hand it over to my weresin :)

[ilkori]

That is one sick claw. I mean that in a good way.

[Kosmos]

oh, tnx mate :)

[Kosmos]

Im planning on using this gear together with that claw.

Helm: Coa (cham/ 30max)
Armor: Fortitude
Shield: Phoenix
Gloves: Draculs
Boots: Shadow dancers
Belt: Verdungos
Rings: 2* Angelic
Amu: Angelic

Charms: max/ar/life charms + anni

with this setup i will do 1.85k - 5.74k physical dmg and on top of that the dmg from venom. I'd say thats pretty good for a 3 fps attac :thumbsup:

[batuchka]

Wow sweet build :D Hmm hope i am not O/T here but lets say i just make this build for PvM ladder and all i got so far is full nat's set with highlords/stormshield and 2 crappy BKs? Full set gives +5 shadow skills so could cast shadow skills wearing full set i think. Armor has 3os so could work with that as well? Set also has nice 30%dr and 14/14 leech with a nice def/resist bonus too :D Maybe on switch i have a beast+spirit monarch and seraph's to prebuff bear skills -would this work in PvM? Checked Dragoon's Weapon Speed calc and bearsin with shael nats claw hit 4fpa @ 15OIAS and i already hit that with highlords hehe. I dun have a spare COH/Nigma atm so would a uniqs set up be better? I was thiking for AR i'd switch out a bk for raven and perhaps use lavagouts for ctc enchant? Think i have a +3shadow/89life ammy and 40ias grief pb somewhere too. What are the effects of Grief (-psn resist) and 'eld' Medusa Gaze aegis (ctc slvl 7 lower resist) be anyone know? Thanks in advance to anyone who could enlighten me on this build for PvM and gear choices :D

p.s Think AR gonna be problem with superuniqs/bosses unless raven + max claw mastery would be adequate for bearsin in PvM :(

[nunnjia]

sorry to resurrect an old thread hehe, but this looks really interesting. IMO almost everyone ive read has focused too much on physical dmg. I think an optimal build would be
artisan runic talons of quickness 3xshaeld
stormshield socketed w/ ?
bramble since you wont be teleing and phys dmg will not be that great
angelics set the ar is really needed
gores to go w/ your 2-3fpa
trangs gloves
belt??
helm??

skills
20venom
20fade
20claw mastery
1+blade shield
0-however many points for lvl 18, i believe, shadow master


now the suggested build in the above post using fort+phoenix is enticing but i'm sure most will agree that max block is a must in pvp, and w/ phoenix that means a craphouse of dex. I have no idea about bear assassin block or fhr breakpoints unfortunately and its getting late. That is a great claw though :)

[ilkori]

Wow, I never thought I'd see this old thread at the top. :) It's been almost 11 months since the last reply!

SSOG on the Amazon Basin made a very nice PvM weresin guide on the Amazon Basin. It is too long to quote here, but these are his findings:

With a 2-fpa attack, the blocking animation is too slow to use. i.e. use your blazing fast claw (Artisan's Runic of Quickness) with nothing in the secondary slot. I don't think this is reasonable in PvP... but I have no idea.

Also, CB is a mega killer in PvM... but no dice here.

Well, that's it for me, cheers!

[kferny]

so if block does nothing at that speed could you use a second call w/ 3os and some eths/psn facets in it?? just a thought

[ilkori]

No. That screws with the animations since Bears were never meant to dual wield. Otherwise, it's a great thought.

[faceinthecrowd]

There is a good bearsin build ive seen on closed westnl. It uses maxed blade sentinel along with a beast and kept morphing/unmorphing to throw the sents out. I must admit he did some friggin wikked dmg =o.

[kferny]

There is a good bearsin build ive seen on closed westnl. It uses maxed blade sentinel along with a beast and kept morphing/unmorphing to throw the sents out. I must admit he did some friggin wikked dmg =o.
could you please explain this tactic; i dont see how morphing back and forth would help your blad damage

[claniraqthree]

I've had this char a long time (since last ladder), and allow me to say, with 2 frame attack, it dominates.

2 Frame attack does indeed hit twice as fast as 4 frames, regardless of what anyone says. Even if physical damage is capped at 4 frames, venom application is not, and either way, against a target with 75% blocking, you are hitting every 8 frames on average. So 2 frames >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 frame attack.

Its like comparing a shaeffers pally to a FFK back in 09, its a no contest comparison. And thats just 5 frames v 4. The difference between 2 and 3 frames is groundbreaking.

Unfortunately, Mechanics Greater Talons of Quickness are about as rare as JMODs.

[ilkori]

I've got a better grasp on the mechanics for this thing, and there is no NextDelay involved. It'll nail with everything on every other frame. Nutso.

[claniraqthree]

I've got a better grasp on the mechanics for this thing, and there is no NextDelay involved. It'll nail with everything on every other frame. Nutso.
You might have the mechanics, but I have the basics....

It will hit every 8 frames on average, provided your opponent has 75% blocking.

But this raises an interesting detail; Venom lasts 10 frames... And you'll be hitting about every 10 frames on average with defense included.

So basically we are talking about your damage = Venom Damage * 2.5 / seconds.

With a nice level 40 venom + ~30% skills applied twice, we are talking ~4700 DPS for a melee char.

But 10 frame venom is a misnomer.

If you opponent has 0% length reduction, in hell you actually start out with -100% to it (like any other resistance, minus magic).
Interestingly enough, this makes venom lasts 20 frames in hell. It will essentially do twice the damage overall, but this means that 2 frame attack is no better then 4 frame attack in hell if your opponent has -100% reduction.

Thats my 2 bits.

[ilkori]

I should have included the right comparison. I have a better grasp now than when I first posted this thread a looong time ago.

I only PvM seriously, but I gotta reply to this:
If you opponent has 0% length reduction, in hell you actually start out with -100% to it (like any other resistance, minus magic).
Interestingly enough, this makes venom lasts 20 frames in hell. It will essentially do twice the damage overall, but this means that 2 frame attack is no better then 4 frame attack in hell if your opponent has -100% reduction.
Not quite. Every time Venom hits, it deals one frame of damage. This is true even if another set of poison is going, so that means you can deal two frames worth of damage at the same time.

Also, the 2-frame/4-frame comparison ignores the variation. There is still a decent chance that they will block 5 hits in a row with 75% block, or that your designated "hit" will miss from the ToHit equation (Defense/Ar/Lvl considerations). Just a thought.

[jumbo_SHRIMP]

I think its rather clear that this build should use dual dream (helm/shield) in a shield with the lowest block and as close to zero dex as possible (this will prevent the blocking thingy you guys talked about) I would recommend a kite shield, since it has the lowest block% with 3 sockets...

dual dreams yields like 1500 lit damage i think...which adds up quickly at 2 fr/attack

[Retrocide]

In my opinion even though I really don't play anymore, this is a venom build. Forget the physical, also, you're all gravely confused on the FPA weresins can attack at. Remember Dragoons was off by alot, max weresins can attack at is 3 frames. I think having no block is just insane, you'll have a better chance of living with block. This build should never have a single item with DR on it either because of Fade, get it high enough and your set.

About dream, the reason why Paladins can use it so effectifly is because of Conviction and synergy stacks. Couldnt really work on a Weresin. (I think.)

(On a diff accnt for now.)
Dr@kE~

[ilkori]

It's two frames per attack with a 120 IAS claw... Otherwise, I agree.

[Retrocide]

What's your source of information for that? I certainly hope it isn't Draggon's, the speed doesn't get any faster than 3 frames and that is a proven fact from a test of mine. Ink and Dagger and Tycho can vouch for this.

Dr@kE~

[ilkori]

SSoG's Bearsin guide on the Amazon Basin. I suggest you take it up with him and DL the file to play in SP. He also claims that with enough on-weapon IAS (enough that you can't actually get it in-game) it is possible to get a 1-frame attack. This means things die without any change in the animation.

While we're comparing notes, can you point or link me to your test?

[Retrocide]

My test was a physical in-game test with various of weapons and speeds. While it was on open it was still sufficient to get the results we wanted. Based off the number we were shown on the calculator we matched them and went lower/higher. Those numbers were far inacurate after the 3 frame point. For example say it takes 1000% IAS to gain 2 FPA from what we did in game it was still doing 2 FPA at 900%. Those calculators are only acurate to a point. Also if you have a good enough eye, you can physically see a 3 frame swing in one full animation. 1 frame attack, that rubbish. 2 frame? Keep dreaming. Say what you will, it's impossible.

Dr@kE~

[inkanddagger]

so what kind of hacked claws are you importing to get 120 ias?

quickness = 40, 3 x shaels = 60, total is 100.


also, vouch@ dr@ke.

[claniraqfour]

I really hate to come back to such a discourteous website, but I couldn't help but noticing this thread again.

I have personally tested it many times, and 1 FRAME ATTACK > 2 FRAME ATTACK > 3 FRAME ATTACK > 4 FRAME ATTACK

There is no next delay involved. Physical, elemental, magic, procs, open wounds, cb, deadly strike all work just fine.

Here is how to test:

Note: We use these tables for reference:
http://home.comcast.net/~thedragoon/wereformadvanced.html
Using RUNIC TALONS, (assassin, werebear, claw, 30 base speed)
(BPs are 28%, 54%, 91%, and 237%)
Using my single-player werebear assassin, we start off with 4 frame claws of hackiness: (the AR mods sure I have a 95% chance to hit)

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/1708/screenshot2706lk.jpg

We can see a definate quick-hitting. I hit as fast a zealer, and you can see the fallen's HP drop by a definite amount each hit. It skips down.
We now switch to 3 Framer:

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/9197/screenshot2711xe.jpg

Practicing with the two, there is an OBVIOUS difference. The 3 frame attack is hitting quite a bit faster, and the fallen dies in 75% of the time. Very obvious difference here. The HP bar drops much quicker and more smoothly.
2 Framers:

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/2882/screenshot2720kx.jpg

Wow, couldnt be much more obvious a difference. 2 seconds of watching it compared to a 3 frame attack shows a ridiculously obvious difference. Enemies hp bars drain in 1 smooth flow. By simply comparing the two, YES, TWO FRAME ATTACK DOES HIT FASTER.
But for good measure, we attempt 1 frame attack claws:

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/8858/screenshot2757jd.jpg

And by god, there is a difference. Enemy's HP bars drop as if they were hit by a poison nova. They literally drop every single frame. I am indeed landing 1 hit each frame. The swing animation doesnt even go off. My werebear is simply standing there looking pretty while the Fallen drop like flies. Kills twice as fast as the 2 frame claws, exactly twice as fast.


But now, just for good measure, I add in crushing blow:


http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1340/screenshot2765ux.jpg

And wow, even large opponents in players 8 drop withing a couple of seconds. Truely amazing. Sad that only 2 frame attack is achievable.


So there you have it. If you don't believe me, try it out yourself with a Hero Editor (like hero editor). The 2 Frame attack completely works, as do 1 & 3 framers. So stop saying they don't, and least of all dont pretend you've "proved" that it doesnt work. I just "proved" they do...

[Lyrs]

Interesting, however, it would've been better had you posted an animated gif.

[ilkori]

so what kind of hacked claws are you importing to get 120 ias?

quickness = 40, 3 x shaels = 60, total is 100.


also, vouch@ dr@ke.
You're right, it was supposed to be 100 IAS to reach the 91 WIAS bp.

[SSoG]

I hate to be a Johnny-Come-Lately, but I would like to just add that not only is a 2-frame attack a realistic achievable value, I've uploaded the files to prove it. As has been mentioned, I have the full PvM Weresin guide available up at the Amazon Basin, but for those remaining skeptics, here's a new toy (http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/upload3/Ursa_Major.zip) for you to play with. Just download it and unzip into your save folder and you'll have yourself a nice 2fpa Weresin with a whole slew of crushing blow and proc gear (actually, just Chaos, which attacks at 4fpa). If I ever remember to get around to it, I'll create a 1fpa claw in the file, too, so you can see what that looks like (all animation stops- the bear stands there with his paw back and monsters just fall over dead around him).

[Bash_]

someone is going to be doing some rerolling. Even with Claw Mastery and Venom you aren't going to be doing great damage without a good claw. And you won't have any support skills unless you can make the SW do your bidding well.

But it does look like two frames per attack is possible with the Artisan's runic talons of quickness socketed with three shaels.

The question is it worth it to get to 2fpa verses 3fpa with something else with a lot more damage and good mods.

If the engine can handle it and you can get alot of AR, then definitely!
Just socket stuff with 30 max dmg jewels.

Very interesting build.

[SSoG]

If the engine can handle it and you can get alot of AR, then definitely!
Just socket stuff with 30 max dmg jewels.

Very interesting build.
Also, remember that going from 3 frames to 2 frames is the same as adding 50% to your final modified damage, too. So if you're dealing 1000 damage on a 2-framer, that's the same as 1500 damage on a 3 framer. And the other big point is that this is primarily a Crushing Blow build. 95% crushing blow at 2 fpa will trigger about 12 times a second, while 95% crushing blow at 3 fpa will trigger about 8 times a second, so even if it takes 50% more CBs to take a monster down to a level where you can finish them off, you're still killing just as quickly. Most of the time, you will indeed be killing quicker with a 2-frame claw than a 3-frame claw.

[Bash_]

indeed thats correct

Also, someone said that phoenix would need ****load of dex - well dex on assa adds damage too, aswell as the lacking AR - seems like a fair trade.

But its hard to tell whats best, 2 fpa low dmg vs 3 fpa high dmg.

[AzaZaz]

quick question. maxing blade shield? good? bad? stupid? pointless?

this is for PvM, will have some CB

[Quietus]

quick question. maxing blade shield? good? bad? stupid? pointless?

this is for PvM, will have some CB


The only advantage you really get from maxing it is the longer duration. Ultimately, it's main use is to apply your venom/open wounds/other mods.

[ilkori]

In damaging, remember that CB is different from other damage sources, and the faster it attacks, the more damage it does. With such a low-end physical attack as a claw, the super-fast speed is the key (note: this is why kickers work - now double that speed).

For Blade Shield - Venom will work (at 3/8ths the damage), but CB and OW do not transfer. At best, it is a tool for interrupting monster attacks. It should be *possible* to build around the skill, but a much more effective build can be made from almost any other skill.

[SSoG]

quick question. maxing blade shield? good? bad? stupid? pointless?

this is for PvM, will have some CB
The only real reason to pump Blade Shield, in my opinion, is because with this build, you really have nothing better to spend your points on. If you want to use Blade Shield, then go ahead and max it so you don't have to keep switching back to recast it.

The one advantage that Blade Shield provides is that it'll have a slightly shorter duration than Shapeshift once maxed. This always serves as a great reminder to me that my Werebear shift is about to expire.