Skill Plan advice for MA/Trap Hybrid

[mattDP]

Hi,

I'm going to start playing D2 again, after a long break, because I've now got broadband and can play on b.net. I've decided to play the assassin hybrid because I've never played one before and because it looks like it's got entertainment longevity in terms of several different play styles: outright melee, missile (with traps) and stealth.

It seems to need a lot of skills though, so I tried planning a skill build and I'd just like some advice on whether I've planned it right. IIRC there's a maximum of 110 skill points available in D2 (98 levels plus 3x4 from quests). It was awkward doing this without a skill planner, but there don't seem to be any for expansion characters.

Martial Arts:
Tiger Strike 20
Dragon Talon (1, pre req)
Dragon Claw (1, pre req)
Cobra Strike (1, functions well as a 1 point skill)
Dragon Tail 20
Dragon Flight (1, for emergencies)

The plan is obviously to charge up Tiger Strike and Cobra Strike and finish with Dragon Tail to provide fire damage. Is it worth having a point in Dragon Flight as an emergency move? I can see myself being dead by the time I've hit the hotkey to cue it up, let alone use it!

Shadow Disciplines:
Claw Mastery (1, functional at 1 point skill)
Psychic Hammer (1, pre req)
Burst of Speed (at least 1, possibly more as required)
Cloak of Shadows (1, functional at 1 point skill)
Fade (1, for pre req & emergencies!)
Weapon Block (at least 1, possibly more as required)
Mind Blast (1, functional at 1 point skill)
Shadow Warrior (1, pre req)
Shadow Master 5

There's a lot of "1 point wonder" skills in this tree that seem perfectly functional at 1 point, and it seems a shame to miss out on Mind Blast and others for the sake of saving one point. I could drop fade I guess .. is it worth investing one point in?

Also on this tree are BoS and WB which I figure I'd be dropping a few extra points in. Since how much I'd need depends on what weapon mods and dex I'd have, I thought I'd save a few points in the build and use them here as appropriate. Is that sensible? I'm not sure I'd ever bother calculating the "best return" on IAS framerate, so I might just drop a couple in BoS and hope! If I go with a shield, I could also do without WB.

Traps:
Fire Blast 3 (early missile skill, plus an extra shot for DS later on)
Shock Web (1, pre req)
Charged Bolt Sentry (1, pre req)
Lightning Sentry 20 (added damage for DS)
Death Sentry 20

It strikes me that adding loads of points to Death Sentry might not be such a great idea as the lightning damage isn't that high: the corpse damage is more important. But with 20 in both, the lightning damage might start to be significant? If I could save 15 points between them, I'd stick them all in Shadow Master instead.

I might also be tempted to stick another 3 points in Fire Blast, for another extra shot on Death Sentry. Is that worthwhile?

That's a total of 102, leaving me 8 points to distribute between BoS and WB and possibly Shadow Master as I see fit.

In terms of equipment, I guess I'm looking for IAS, +to assassin skills, resists and some elemental cold damage as priorities.

Look like a viable build to you guys? Or am I trying to stick my fingers in too many skill trees? Help and advice greatly appreciated.

[turmania]

Hi,

I'm going to start playing D2 again, after a long break, because I've now got broadband and can play on b.net. I've decided to play the assassin hybrid because I've never played one before and because it looks like it's got entertainment longevity in terms of several different play styles: outright melee, missile (with traps) and stealth.

It seems to need a lot of skills though, so I tried planning a skill build and I'd just like some advice on whether I've planned it right. IIRC there's a maximum of 110 skill points available in D2 (98 levels plus 3x4 from quests). It was awkward doing this without a skill planner, but there don't seem to be any for expansion characters.

Martial Arts:
Tiger Strike 20
Dragon Talon (1, pre req)
Dragon Claw (1, pre req)
Cobra Strike (1, functions well as a 1 point skill)
Dragon Tail 20
Dragon Flight (1, for emergencies)

The plan is obviously to charge up Tiger Strike and Cobra Strike and finish with Dragon Tail to provide fire damage. Is it worth having a point in Dragon Flight as an emergency move? I can see myself being dead by the time I've hit the hotkey to cue it up, let alone use it!

Shadow Disciplines:
Claw Mastery (1, functional at 1 point skill)
Psychic Hammer (1, pre req)
Burst of Speed (at least 1, possibly more as required)
Cloak of Shadows (1, functional at 1 point skill)
Fade (1, for pre req & emergencies!)
Weapon Block (at least 1, possibly more as required)
Mind Blast (1, functional at 1 point skill)
Shadow Warrior (1, pre req)
Shadow Master 5

There's a lot of "1 point wonder" skills in this tree that seem perfectly functional at 1 point, and it seems a shame to miss out on Mind Blast and others for the sake of saving one point. I could drop fade I guess .. is it worth investing one point in?

Also on this tree are BoS and WB which I figure I'd be dropping a few extra points in. Since how much I'd need depends on what weapon mods and dex I'd have, I thought I'd save a few points in the build and use them here as appropriate. Is that sensible? I'm not sure I'd ever bother calculating the "best return" on IAS framerate, so I might just drop a couple in BoS and hope! If I go with a shield, I could also do without WB.

Traps:
Fire Blast 3 (early missile skill, plus an extra shot for DS later on)
Shock Web (1, pre req)
Charged Bolt Sentry (1, pre req)
Lightning Sentry 20 (added damage for DS)
Death Sentry 20

It strikes me that adding loads of points to Death Sentry might not be such a great idea as the lightning damage isn't that high: the corpse damage is more important. But with 20 in both, the lightning damage might start to be significant? If I could save 15 points between them, I'd stick them all in Shadow Master instead.

I might also be tempted to stick another 3 points in Fire Blast, for another extra shot on Death Sentry. Is that worthwhile?

That's a total of 102, leaving me 8 points to distribute between BoS and WB and possibly Shadow Master as I see fit.

In terms of equipment, I guess I'm looking for IAS, +to assassin skills, resists and some elemental cold damage as priorities.

Look like a viable build to you guys? Or am I trying to stick my fingers in too many skill trees? Help and advice greatly appreciated.


Now to help u most shadow tree skills are a point wonder. if u want to use both traps and martial arts you need to focus more on traps. you are basically gonna be a trapper with martial arts as a backer and the only skill in martial arts tree that completes a build like that is dragon talon. i say;
max lightning and chargerd bolt sentry and of course deat sentry, max dragon talon, put a point into claw mastery, burst of speed, cloak, p.hammer,mind blast and fade. thats all u u need. and if u got for dual claws then uneed to put a point into weapon block as well. and rest of your skill points in u decide to level up as far as u can should be to other ligtning trap shock web. this build is all about skillers, best is to use shadow dancers, or upped gores and hoto. shield is where u ill prefer a storm to any +1 skill shields. ita great build, u get to lay traps and then fight with dragin talon, u can solo hell baal and any other area of the game easily.

[mattDP]

Now to help u most shadow tree skills are a point wonder. if u want to use both traps and martial arts you need to focus more on traps. you are basically gonna be a trapper with martial arts as a backer and the only skill in martial arts tree that completes a build like that is dragon talon. i say;
max lightning and chargerd bolt sentry and of course deat sentry, max dragon talon, put a point into claw mastery, burst of speed, cloak, p.hammer,mind blast and fade. thats all u u need. and if u got for dual claws then uneed to put a point into weapon block as well. and rest of your skill points in u decide to level up as far as u can should be to other ligtning trap shock web. this build is all about skillers, best is to use shadow dancers, or upped gores and hoto. shield is where u ill prefer a storm to any +1 skill shields. ita great build, u get to lay traps and then fight with dragin talon, u can solo hell baal and any other area of the game easily.

Thanks for the advice, but why do you think DTalon is superior to DTail & Tiger Strike? Sure it's less skill levels, but it looks to me like it deals less damage and has no fire splash/crowd control aspect? Does putting the levels into shock web really make the trap aspect that much better? I can't see why I'd use Shock Web more than DS, and Shock web isn't synergic with DS.

[skygoneblue]

No offense to Turmania, but I completely disagree with what he said about DTalon. Your idea is a really good one; in fact, if I did PvM, this is the build I would make.

It's good that you have Fire and Lightning damage (so you aren't wasted on LI monsters). I think what Turmania is getting at is killing one monster with DTalon, then letting the Corpse Explosion from DS take out the rest, but that won't work nearly as quickly or effectively as having two very beefy main attacks (in your case, Traps and DTail).

I think your build will work great as long as you get some good +skills gear and a good pair of Myrmidon Greaves (best damage).

[turmania]

No offense to Turmania, but I completely disagree with what he said about DTalon. Your idea is a really good one; in fact, if I did PvM, this is the build I would make.

It's good that you have Fire and Lightning damage (so you aren't wasted on LI monsters). I think what Turmania is getting at is killing one monster with DTalon, then letting the Corpse Explosion from DS take out the rest, but that won't work nearly as quickly or effectively as having two very beefy main attacks (in your case, Traps and DTail).

I think your build will work great as long as you get some good +skills gear and a good pair of Myrmidon Greaves (best damage).



i think the other build is also viable, but you will lose a lot of killing speed and u will risk your life more. dtalon is by far more superior to any other kicks, sure is seems it deals less damage to others, but by landing 6-7 kick per attack and with th ehelp of some crushing blow its godly, in fact i dont vene use crushing blow, just for boss killing in 8 player games. what makes this buils so good, is lighning traps kills all nnon light iimunes, and its a geat crowd control. most of the ligh immune monsters are as well very weal they die easily to a dtalon. and yess at times when u get corpse u can use detah sentry. if u look at the forums and strategy compendium of assassins u will see cbeats guide which is the same build in priciple. light traps/ dtalon is a true tested, tried and verified pvm build.
i made a char like yours, and letme tell u, tiger strike dragin tail is not effecitice in hell, it has bad ar, u will not hit much. charging up 3 tiger strikes for a dragont tail finish is way slower to dragont talon. and the advantage of light/dtalon is u still got fireblast. for those occasional light immune / physical immune monster use that. its an all around best pvm char, i prefer this build more then hammerdins and summon necros.

[mattDP]

Interesting opinions. Anyone care to do some calculations to back up your cases? :) I can certainly see lvl 1 cobra strike getting progressively more and more useless with it's wimpy AR bonus.

What do both of you think about the number of skill points needed in Weapon Block, Burst of Speed and Shadow Master?

What do y'all think about bothering with single points in Fade and Dragon Flight?

And turmania, I'd still like to know what use Charged Bolt is if you're using Lightning Sentry and Death sentry as your main trap skills? If I were saving points in Martial Arts, I think I'd rather dump them in Fire Blast - that way all three skills complement each other, and you get two elemental attacks.

[skygoneblue]

Well, my main concern is running into your pack of LI monsters. Sure, DTalon may be "faster," but it attacks one monster at a time. DTail with TS can finish a whole pack with one combination. So you can either use your "fast" Talon to kill each LI one at a time while all the others pound on you, or you can use a huge fire attack, even though it's "slow," and kill them all (or at least, damage them all) at once.

The AR can easily be made up in gear, and not to mention that TS gives you a ton of it anyway. And also, the combined AR of TS and DTail aren't that much lower than that of DTalon, so I really don't see how you had such bad problems hitting.

I ran one test, and if you were to max another trap instead of doing the DTail/TS combo, your LS damage (at slvl 20) would go up about 800 points. So, in Lightning terms, that's about 400 average damage (with low minimum). Which, still, leaves you with the LI problem.

Until turmania can convince me that Talon is a more effective and faster way to kill LI groups (because there is a TON in Hell), I am sticking with my position.

[mattDP]

I've just done a few calculations based on the assassin FAQ in D2.net. It's a way to pass the time at work :) All the figures here are making the same presumption as on the FAQ, namely 200 STR, 100 DEX, lvl20 skills, Myrmidon Greaves, lvl12 might active and +350% damage armour.

If i've understood correctly, DTail charged up with TS can do 13,723 to 22,426 damage, most of that being fire splash damage which will apply to a group. I didn't actually realised DTail could do that much fire damage: it kind of makes Fireblast rather obsolete as a back up fire skill :) Anyone think it's still worth the investment of 2 extra points for an extra shot on Death Sentry?

DTalon without TS will do 2322 to 4092 damage per kick. If you can get 4 kicks, that's 13,923 to 16,368.

Clearly, DTail is superior in terms of damage output per shot, plus it has crowd control. The interesting part of this equation is, how many DTalons can you get off in the space of time it takes to charge up 3 TS, possibly a CS and then do a DTail? That's probably not easy to work out, but I'll look at it!

[skygoneblue]

That is secondary compared to how many enemies you would kill in that time period. If you really want to do an effective comparison, figure out how many enemies you would kill in a certain time frame with each skill.

Maybe DTalon can dish out more damage faster, but you killed one enemy with it all - congratulations. Your true measure of success is going to be your speed vs. kills.

[mattDP]

That is secondary compared to how many enemies you would kill in that time period. If you really want to do an effective comparison, figure out how many enemies you would kill in a certain time frame with each skill.

Maybe DTalon can dish out more damage faster, but you killed one enemy with it all - congratulations. Your true measure of success is going to be your speed vs. kills.

Having looked into this a bit more, the debate's become academic to me. I note that DTalon builds generally require certain levels of good equipment to be effective (crushing blow, etc) whereas a DTail build has a general level of effectiveness regardless of equipment. Since I was specifically looking for a build that wasn't totally equipment-dependant (is this what the term 'twinking' means? I've not heard it before) then I guess I'll stick with DTail/TS/CS. Plus the charging-up aspect looks fun all by itself :)

[turmania]

Well, my main concern is running into your pack of LI monsters. Sure, DTalon may be "faster," but it attacks one monster at a time. DTail with TS can finish a whole pack with one combination. So you can either use your "fast" Talon to kill each LI one at a time while all the others pound on you, or you can use a huge fire attack, even though it's "slow," and kill them all (or at least, damage them all) at once.

The AR can easily be made up in gear, and not to mention that TS gives you a ton of it anyway. And also, the combined AR of TS and DTail aren't that much lower than that of DTalon, so I really don't see how you had such bad problems hitting.

I ran one test, and if you were to max another trap instead of doing the DTail/TS combo, your LS damage (at slvl 20) would go up about 800 points. So, in Lightning terms, that's about 400 average damage (with low minimum). Which, still, leaves you with the LI problem.

Until turmania can convince me that Talon is a more effective and faster way to kill LI groups (because there is a TON in Hell), I am sticking with my position.

ok for starters most light immune monsters in hell dont have big hit points. unlike fire res monsters they have huge. which means on eor 2 hits they are finished.
second part, a good maxed lvl 36 dtalon gives around 10.6 k attack rating and this is not using bartucs. with bartucs it can go higher. but same lvl 36 tiger strike and dtail will never reach 10.6 unless u sacrifice items.

first of all this build is very gear dependant. and u need very elite items to make it work. my setup is as follows;
shako with um
enigma
hoto
storm with um
shadow dancers
ma gloves +2 ma , 20 ias, 6ll and 10% cb.
aravhnid belt
2 sojs and a maras.
lidless and call to arms on weapon switch
10 trap skillers for pvp, 8 for pvm
some life/res charms and of ocurse an anni.

i have a lvl 92 light.kicker assa with that setup.
now hard part is stat points;
this is wher eu sacrifice vitality and put it on dex and strenght
i have base 175 strenght and dexterity. this way i get max block, and a lot of kick damage.
and if i die o dont have to worry about re equipping items.
and the rest on vita, no energy,
after bo i get like 2500 life which is more then enuf for pvm and acceptable for pvp.

if u read the froums about tiger strike/dragon tail users u will see a lot of them complainng that they can t kill fast or even in acceptable terms in hell. but they do say for nightmare it works great. i agree tried and tested it. now that character i had has become a mule.
at lvl 92 my skill point base distrubition is like this;
20 dtalon
1 claw mastery
1 burst of speed
1 fade
1 venom
1 cloak of shadows
1 physic hammer
1 mind blast
1 fire blast
20 death sentry
20 light sentry
20 charged bolt sentry
15 shock web

with the equipmetn stated above, and skillers i fdo almost 10k light damage.
and 1.8k dtalon kick damage at lvl 36, which gives me 7 kicks.

besides that i dont use shadow master, or warrieor, i found them useless and in fact they slow me down. she keeps on mind blasting which converts some monsters and therefore i have to wait till the effect wears off to kill them, in affect slowing me down. therefore i decided to use act2 migth merc with a doom runeword. but u dont need him at all, but he helps. now how do u kill a light immune monster? obviously traps here are useless. so in that case i lay 5 death snetrys and go in meleeing usually 2 hits at most kills one and u start to pop others. i rushed many ppl on 8 player games even did ancients, i never died because of light immune monsters. the only problem i ever had was iron maiden cuz u sometime tend to get carried on using dtalon as its so cool to use, and especially act4 chaos sanctuary and act5 baal runs u have to be extra careful to obliion knights, and as they ar enot light immune, u have no problem killing them with your traps.
now for pvm most prefer upped gore riders, for crushing blow and all. and i do agree its worth to use upped gores for pvm.
i can do baal rushed in about 3 minutes includung baal on hell. of course i use enigma.
there is no other class u can do that quickly apart from a hammerdin. and hammerdins u have to stay in one place no freedonm at all. this is why i like this build much much better.
as a back up equipment i have as well. upped gores, fleshripper with ber, and guilleames face along with the gloves i use i get 100 crushing blow. and i use that combo only for 8 player hell baal, hell meph and diablo clone killing. and it works wonders. u kill very very fast. if u want to i can show u howe fast i'm but i play europe NL. so if u have an account there whisper me my account is *fullflavor

i as well made another build like this, but this time it was a fire trapper, with max dtalon and max venom, well venom is not maxe dits base lvl 16 so far.
but equiipment is same except the gloves where i use trangs gloves, and charms are all same. she is great in pvp as not many suspect a fire trapper, but she doesnt have the fast killing power of a my other assassin.

you can search the forums here about a hybrid assassin and 99% will recommend u a build like this. once again u will see this build ins tartegy compendium and alll over the forums, its great for pvm, pvp, dclone killing and mf' ing. with how many chars can u do all 4 of those combined? only a hammerdin i suppose.

[skygoneblue]

Well, you're right. Also, DTail and TS are going to benefit more from +skills equipment, as are your traps. DTalon needs a completely different kind of equipment to work well. How the hell cbeat got through the game with that kind of a screwy hybrid is beyond me. Good luck with your build!

[skygoneblue]

@Turmania - This may be just my opinion, but I think you can make ANY build work when you throw a ton of decked out rune-words on them. Bragging that a build works with Enigma, Hoto, SS, Arach, SoJ, etc is like bragging about stepping on an ant.

[mattDP]

Thanks both of you for all the info.

I've read C-Beat's guide and I appreciate the build but he doesn't explain *why* he's selecting some the skill and equipment combos that he is, which is a shame.

I have to point out that there's also a TS/DTail guide in the strategy compendium, which also has a bit about using it as the basis for an MA/Trap hybrid.

I've seen several places recommend just putting 1 point in DS on the trap tree, but I can't see why. More points increase the amount of lightning damage it does (which stacks nicely with the LS synergy) and the radius. It also has a synergy with LS, increasing the damage that does. I always figured the way to play this was to make corpses with LS, then apply DS, and finish off survivors with Martial Arts. So why just the one point in DS?

[skygoneblue]

I think that people regard CBS as the best boss killing trap, maxing CBS and LS might be a better idea with only one point in DS (because DS is really for the CE, not the lightning damage).

[mattDP]

I think that people regard CBS as the best boss killing trap, maxing CBS and LS might be a better idea with only one point in DS (because DS is really for the CE, not the lightning damage).

Interesting. I presumed that the Martial Arts in this build were the best bet for boss killing :)

What is it about CBS that makes it a good boss killer?

I keep asking these questions because trying to save points in this build is paramount. More skill point in BoS, SM and WB is always going to be helpful, so if I can get away with just 1 each in CBS and DS that's got to be a good thing.

[skygoneblue]

The MA will help, but the fact that more than one bolt can hit a boss at once is what really helps (as opposed to one lightning bolt at a time with DS and LS).

I would assume that 1 point in BoS would be enough, but you may want to check jrichard's tables in the sticky and compare them with the equipment you plan on using just to be sure. :thumbsup:

[mattDP]

The MA will help, but the fact that more than one bolt can hit a boss at once is what really helps (as opposed to one lightning bolt at a time with DS and LS).

Just had a read of the lightning trapsin guide. Makes sense now. The guide makes it sound like DS just does *one* corpse explosion per trap, but has up to five lightning bolt shots. Is that right? If so, putting points into FB really is a waste :)


I would assume that 1 point in BoS would be enough, but you may want to check jrichard's tables in the sticky and compare them with the equipment you plan on using just to be sure. :thumbsup:

The skills stats make it look like 2 is worthwhile for the extra 6%. Is it worth putting points in fade if you're primarily going to be using BoS? I suppose it depends on how much +resists you can muster on your gear ...

[skygoneblue]

Yeah, ALWAYS plan out your gear and skills ahead of time. Don't put any more than one point in a skill unless you are absolutely sure you will need it in the end game.

With this build, I would go with either 2x Bartucs or a Bartuc and Jade Talon. The rest of the gear will need to give you Skills, AR, and resistances, with DR coming in closely as well.

Good choices may include:
Crown of Ages, Shako
Mara's, Highlord's
Chains of Honor, Duriel's, Shaftstop
Laying of Hands, Lava Gouts, +2 MA Gloves
Verdungo's, String of Ears
Shadow Dancers, Upgraded Gore Riders, Myrmidon Rares
BK Wedding Band, RavenFrost, good rare

[turmania]

That is secondary compared to how many enemies you would kill in that time period. If you really want to do an effective comparison, figure out how many enemies you would kill in a certain time frame with each skill.

Maybe DTalon can dish out more damage faster, but you killed one enemy with it all - congratulations. Your true measure of success is going to be your speed vs. kills.

i think you have an attitude problem, im saying i tried both variants, gone as far as building a fire trapper with kicks as well. when i'm speaking of something i speak becaouse i tried , tested and verified it. i dont go around assuming things. there is only one real good trapper/ma hybrid and thats the light/kicker. its very easy to do it, im sure cbeat had no problems soloing i had no problems since lvl1.... this is what i will say. if u want to go other route u can as well, im not saying its bad its just that the route i took is more long run friendlly , more faster, more safer and u get the best of both traps and ma skills, as well as being rdy for pvm, pvp, and mf ing as well as dclone slaying.

thats all there is to it. u can make a questionaire most ppl will choose this route!

and as for yuor attitude first show me what you have done then speak, all u do is bla bla but i see no characters. im trying to help a person who seeks help.

[skygoneblue]

Fine man, I'm not going to turn this into a little pissing contest with insults and name calling. Think what you want of me, that doesn't change the validity of a thing that I have said in this thread.

Matt, regardless of which build you play, I hope you have fun.

[turmania]

Interesting. I presumed that the Martial Arts in this build were the best bet for boss killing :)

What is it about CBS that makes it a good boss killer?

I keep asking these questions because trying to save points in this build is paramount. More skill point in BoS, SM and WB is always going to be helpful, so if I can get away with just 1 each in CBS and DS that's got to be a good thing.

dragon talon is a great boss killing skill as if u stack up a lot of crushing blow and u it a lot of times its gonna trigger crushing blow this way you eat up bosses life very quickly, one another good boss killing skill is dragon claw, but its no where near as effective as dtalon.

now, my friend. if u have items or u can get them, try to get 10 trap skillers or 8 for pvm only. and get the equipments i suggest and take my route. from lvl 1 to whatever heights u wanna take u will never have trouble anywhere. first try to max dtalon then concentrate on light traps. you will never regret this build. its fun, it kills, it does everything and max death sentry, cbs is a great boss killing but it takes time to master the trap laying. most still uses lightning sentry for that. and thats as well great for boss killing. if u want to go for the dtail tiger strike build try it. in the ned u will see what i mean when u compare it with a dtalon kicker.

[turmania]

Fine man, I'm not going to turn this into a little pissing contest with insults and name calling. Think what you want of me, that doesn't change the validity of a thing that I have said in this thread.

Matt, regardless of which build you play, I hope you have fun.


no u assume and mock other ppls comments, but u never give any insight of what to do or not to do... i say i tried them and tested and came to a conclusion. if u have nothing to say dont say at all... since u have no idea on how to play with hybrid style asssassins. i give what skills to use what stats to use what equipment to use, and even what merc to use, i know what im talking about. and cbeats guide u mock it but most ppl started from tgat guide, and i heard no one complaing about it...anyhow, i had enuf of this big head

[skygoneblue]

1. You didn't list any gear suggestions until one post before this one.

2. Where was I mocking you? I never once tried to say anything demeaning about you at all. I may have been offering another PoV as opposed to what you said, but if you take that personally or as me mocking you, then you have bigger issues.

3. When did I fail to give insight? I thoroughly explained why I thought that the original build that he had planned out was better, I backed it up with numbers, strategy, and gear suggestions.

4. He was asking for help with his build, and you suggested a completely different one which, if I am reading his post correctly, is really not what he is asking for.

Don't get me wrong man, I have no doubt in my mind that you know what you're talking about, but nowhere in this thread did you ever really "successfully" dispute anything that I said to support the build idea. You only told me that I have an attitude problem and that you know more than me (which may be true). So, until you show me a good valid reasoning as to where I am faltering in my reasoning with his build, please...just...go do something else...

[turmania]

1. You didn't list any gear suggestions until one post before this one.

2. Where was I mocking you? I never once tried to say anything demeaning about you at all. I may have been offering another PoV as opposed to what you said, but if you take that personally or as me mocking you, then you have bigger issues.

3. When did I fail to give insight? I thoroughly explained why I thought that the original build that he had planned out was better, I backed it up with numbers, strategy, and gear suggestions.

4. He was asking for help with his build, and you suggested a completely different one which, if I am reading his post correctly, is really not what he is asking for.

Don't get me wrong man, I have no doubt in my mind that you know what you're talking about, but nowhere in this thread did you ever really "successfully" dispute anything that I said to support the build idea. You only told me that I have an attitude problem and that you know more than me (which may be true). So, until you show me a good valid reasoning as to where I am faltering in my reasoning with his build, please...just...go do something else...

1) What I dont get is how yu can make a comment on a build which you never tried. since 1.10 i made at leastt 100 dieferent assa chars. and to be perfectly honest dtalon/kicker from the lvl1 was the easisest to level. i never relied on someine rushing me or even helpibng me.
2) you claim he has a crappy build and suprised how he actually managed to surviive hell and all with that build, u are commenting on cbeat's strategy.
3) im not his lawyer in fact there are some point i disagree with him, in fact when i made my lvl 92 assa i never even seen cbeats startegy so i didnt copy it.
4) gears u suggest is as godly as teh gears i suggest, and no u can have the best items game has to offer but u still can get stuck a lot. this build makes it clear freedom.
5) i never comment on a build i never tried, matter of principle, i would only say hmm that looks interesting letme give it a shot.
6) im not here to fight with you, but you look down and have an attitude.
7) the guy asked for ma/trap hybrid, i gave him the best of both worlds. a little biit sorc a little bit barbarian style. but its his choice, only a tried tested user will know which way is better to go with,

in fact i like my fire trapper, kicker with venom more than my light trapper kicker but for game play and all around i can not argue with light traps power.

as i said i can show how my light/kicker assas performs. as simple as that.

the bottom line is we are here for ppl to make the right decision its very frustrating to make a build and then realize it sucks and start all over again.

[BIGeyedBUG]

I'd have to agree that the Talon hybrid is more doable than the Tail--probably even more so for people without great gear. The first reason is simple: skill points. Talon doesn't even have to be maxed to be effective. That leaves a lot of points to develop the trap end of the hybrid equation, as well as support skills.

Another thing to keep in mind is damage over time. Although Tail has an amazing area effect, it takes a long time to charge and release--a minimum of 28 frames. Because Tail itself has a speed penalty, it's often slower than that, and almost necessitates the use of BoS.

In contrast, it's very easy to get Talon to a 16 or 19 frame cycle--basically 4 frames per kick. With fast claws equipped, it's viable to use Fade and benefit from its resist bonuses and PDR.

Because of its speed, Talon is far better at applying attack effects. CB is the classic example, but also procs, OW, and elemental damage. This has the pleasant side-effect of making Talon more effective vs. Physical resists and immunes. And even though Tail has a killer area fire effect, remember that it will be reduced by both phys resist on the release target and fire resist on the area targets.

There's other factors too, but I think they've been touched on already.

I'm not saying a Tail/Trap hybrid is impossible--just that it sounds very challenging. And even more so without the tons of +skills that hybrids usually need. I suspect that those minimally synergized traps will have a hard time in Hell, unless you mostly play in very small games.

I didn't actually mean for this to turn into a treatise on Tail vs. Talon. :lol: If matt hasn't changed his mind about his original build, I'll try to make suggestions on how to get it to work later on.

[skygoneblue]

1) What I dont get is how yu can make a comment on a build which you never tried. since 1.10 i made at leastt 100 dieferent assa chars. and to be perfectly honest dtalon/kicker from the lvl1 was the easisest to level. i never relied on someine rushing me or even helpibng me.
2) you claim he has a crappy build and suprised how he actually managed to surviive hell and all with that build, u are commenting on cbeat's strategy.
3) im not his lawyer in fact there are some point i disagree with him, in fact when i made my lvl 92 assa i never even seen cbeats startegy so i didnt copy it.
4) gears u suggest is as godly as teh gears i suggest, and no u can have the best items game has to offer but u still can get stuck a lot. this build makes it clear freedom.
5) i never comment on a build i never tried, matter of principle, i would only say hmm that looks interesting letme give it a shot.
6) im not here to fight with you, but you look down and have an attitude.
7) the guy asked for ma/trap hybrid, i gave him the best of both worlds. a little biit sorc a little bit barbarian style. but its his choice, only a tried tested user will know which way is better to go with,

in fact i like my fire trapper, kicker with venom more than my light trapper kicker but for game play and all around i can not argue with light traps power.

as i said i can show how my light/kicker assas performs. as simple as that.

the bottom line is we are here for ppl to make the right decision its very frustrating to make a build and then realize it sucks and start all over again.

1. I understand that experience will grant knowledge, but there are simple concepts that I understand about the skills that really make me believe that talon maybe isn't the best MA skill to combine with traps. BUT, I could be wrong.

2. I most certainly did not say it was crappy. I am surprised that Lightning Immune packs didn't totally tear his character limb from limb, but I suppose with the uber gear, he didn't have to worry.

3. That has nothing to do with my #3 at all - stay on topic! :lol:

4. Well, my perfect example of this is a WarCry barbarian. A barb that uses only the skill WarCry to kill. Gee, how would that be anything close to viable without godly gear? It wouldn't...I don't suspect a trapper is as likely a candidate for that category, but a kick hybrid that focuses on melee damage as opposed to elemental damage is a pretty odd hybrid indeed, and it would need good gear to survive.

-

6. Well, if you think I have an attitude, great. But remember, you are the one who pulled out the name calling first, not me. ;)

7. No, he asked if his build looked right.

It seems to need a lot of skills though, so I tried planning a skill build and I'd just like some advice on whether I've planned it right.

[skygoneblue]

I'd have to agree that the Talon hybrid is more doable than the Tail--probably even more so for people without great gear. The first reason is simple: skill points. Talon doesn't even have to be maxed to be effective. That leaves a lot of points to develop the trap end of the hybrid equation, as well as support skills.


Bug, my concern with that build is that Talon, without a bunch of good CB and STR gear, is nothing more than a woodpecker in a dense forest. Wouldn't it make more sense to combine hybrid skill groups based on their needs? For instance, two skill groups that both require +skills to do good damage?

You said yourself that Talon doesn't need many skills, but what good is it without any CB when the assn is decked out like a sorceress?

[turmania]

I'd have to agree that the Talon hybrid is more doable than the Tail--probably even more so for people without great gear. The first reason is simple: skill points. Talon doesn't even have to be maxed to be effective. That leaves a lot of points to develop the trap end of the hybrid equation, as well as support skills.

Another thing to keep in mind is damage over time. Although Tail has an amazing area effect, it takes a long time to charge and release--a minimum of 28 frames. Because Tail itself has a speed penalty, it's often slower than that, and almost necessitates the use of BoS.

In contrast, it's very easy to get Talon to a 16 or 19 frame cycle--basically 4 frames per kick. With fast claws equipped, it's viable to use Fade and benefit from its resist bonuses and PDR.

Because of its speed, Talon is far better at applying attack effects. CB is the classic example, but also procs, OW, and elemental damage. This has the pleasant side-effect of making Talon more effective vs. Physical resists and immunes. And even though Tail has a killer area fire effect, remember that it will be reduced by both phys resist on the release target and fire resist on the area targets.

There's other factors too, but I think they've been touched on already.

I'm not saying a Tail/Trap hybrid is impossible--just that it sounds very challenging. And even more so without the tons of +skills that hybrids usually need. I suspect that those minimally synergized traps will have a hard time in Hell, unless you mostly play in very small games.

I didn't actually mean for this to turn into a treatise on Tail vs. Talon. :lol: If matt hasn't changed his mind about his original build, I'll try to make suggestions on how to get it to work later on.

unfortunately this turned out into a tail vs talon debate.
i tried them all. i used to love tiger strike build before 1.10 but we have to move on tiger strike builds are not as effective as trap builds. i never say its useless i had loads of fun with tail tiger builds untill early hell. but then it becomes a pain.especially in big games.

if the guy wants to try that build of course no one is stopping him, im here for advice.

[turmania]

1. I understand that experience will grant knowledge, but there are simple concepts that I understand about the skills that really make me believe that talon maybe isn't the best MA skill to combine with traps. BUT, I could be wrong.

2. I most certainly did not say it was crappy. I am surprised that Lightning Immune packs didn't totally tear his character limb from limb, but I suppose with the uber gear, he didn't have to worry.

3. That has nothing to do with my #3 at all - stay on topic! :lol:

4. Well, my perfect example of this is a WarCry barbarian. A barb that uses only the skill WarCry to kill. Gee, how would that be anything close to viable without godly gear? It wouldn't...I don't suspect a trapper is as likely a candidate for that category, but a kick hybrid that focuses on melee damage as opposed to elemental damage is a pretty odd hybrid indeed, and it would need good gear to survive.

-

6. Well, if you think I have an attitude, great. But remember, you are the one who pulled out the name calling first, not me. ;)

7. No, he asked if his build looked right.

i never called u names or so. i just said u got an attitude problem and u mock other builds.

[skygoneblue]

Big-head. :)

I rest my case.

[lextalionis]

The honest truth is that both these hybrid builds are difficult to make, espeically untweaked. When you are talking about untweaked you are talking about needing to use your skill poiints even more wisely, since you don't get the benefit of so many plus skills from items.

If I had to rank them, the pure trapper would beat all of them. Why? Because you can concentrate on your +Trap skills. You don't have to ever plan to be in melee range. Melee range equals gear that more expensive, especially if you are looking to do a lot of melee damage.

If I had to rank them, I would rank the Lightning/Dtalon build slightly ahead of the Lightning/TS/DTail build. Why? Because traps can be so good. You would have more skill points put into your traps, so you aren't really downgrading your primary damage from traps. Again, killing one and using CE from DS is very strong. This build is weaker with dealing with large groups, but very good with bosses. Especially if you have any CB equipment. IE if you can get upped Goreriders and BLOOD crafted gloves that may be enough CB to make this build work. You also might want to look at getting a strong weapon switch with this build that uses a shield and non-claw weapon for your DTalon attacks. Look at the guides for help here. Personally, I'll throw out the idea of BLACK runeword or STRENGTH runeword, both are fairly cheap and can give great mods for DTalon. STRENGTH can even be placed in a claw.

Is TS/DTail/LS good? Yes, it will work. I think you could get thru Hell with this build too. While 60K blast damage from DTail is possible in theory, it won't be in a hybrid build. So you have to be smart about it. You may not want to max TS with this build or not until late. You also may need help with AR, especially when using CS with this build. So you need to adjust your gear to get some gear oriented AR bonuses. Hitting is far more imiportant with this build and you will have a low AR attack with CS, which you will want to use. In general this build is reducing the damage on two very damaging attacks, this gives you two decent attacks. This build can be made effective with good choice in equipment, even in untweaked.

But that being said, you need to be very careful with these builds, especially in untweaked. Being in melee range takes a different kinda gear. When you are also trying to max out your +skills to increase your damage, the gear is sometimes too expensive for untweaked. Compromises will thus be made.

____________________________

It would be better if, instead of criticizing others builds we could attempt to learn from the information being put out there by others. See possibilities not the weaknesses. I'm sure I could make all these builds work, even without tweaked gear. If one is a little more effective or one is better for your playstyle embrace it. Talk more about the strategies you'd use to make the builds work. That would be more constructive help.

[skygoneblue]

Well put, Lexy! I do have a bit of a question for you regarding a comment you made:

While 60K blast damage from DTail is possible in theory, it won't be in a hybrid build.

Why is this true? The core of the build only requires 41 skill points. That leaves at least 40 for traps, easily (asssuming just 1 point in most Shadows).

I suppose it may depend on the gear you use, but with the Tail/Trap build, I would assume that the Tail combo would be the main killer, so I would deck my assn out accordingly. IE: Gear that gives +skills, but is also suitable for melee.

One thing we all need to keep in mind too - just because a build may not hold up in a multiplayer hell game does not mean it is not viable at all. Many people play solo and could do very well with one of these builds without the added difficulty of additional people in the gaem.

[turmania]

i do agree with you over here that these builds are hard to make and really item dependant and worst of ll hig damage boots is a must and those 2 high gamage boots are only attainable from ladder chars.

in a duel situation a normal trapper vs my hybrid will win more against me, asuuming we are suing identiacla set ups as normal trappers will put less points into strenght and dex and more into vitaz, after bo the difference can go up as far as 500 life. in a duel sitation with identical gears thats a huge bonus, plus a kicker needs to be close to hit where as a trapper will sit back and w8 for the kicker to rush in and use mind blast a lot. probably they will have more points into mind blast as well, making stun harder to get out off.
but for general game play, pvm,pvp, mf ing, and dclone killing a dtalon/light trapper is better. u get physical damage, u get enermous light damage and as a back u p u get fire blast as well. is crushing blow worth it for pvm for a kicker yes definetly.but as i said before i really dont need in one player games. 8 player it helps u a lot.

it really depends on your play style and preferences. but when i make a char, i dont only do it for pvm, or pvp. i want it to make it well with both, sacrifice sime gears and can do some mf, and diablo clone. and for that style of build there are very few character choices, one is a hammerdin, maybe a summon necro, and light trapper/dtalon user. as i say it depend son your style of game play and what you ar emost comfortable with.

[turmania]

Big-head. :)

I rest my case.

whut is that a name calling? come on thats hardly name calling....dont be a kid...

[skygoneblue]

:lol: Well, it just seemed that you were a little "hostile" toward me for having differing opinions, or w/e.

If I upset you, I'm sorry - I didn't mean to.

Peace bro! :)

[lextalionis]

but for general game play, pvm,pvp, mf ing, and dclone killing a dtalon/light trapper is better. u get physical damage, u get enermous light damage and as a back u p u get fire blast as well. is crushing blow worth it for pvm for a kicker yes definetly.but as i said before i really dont need in one player games. 8 player it helps u a lot.

it really depends on your play style and preferences. but when i make a char, i dont only do it for pvm, or pvp. i want it to make it well with both, sacrifice sime gears and can do some mf, and diablo clone. and for that style of build there are very few character choices, one is a hammerdin, maybe a summon necro, and light trapper/dtalon user. as i say it depend son your style of game play and what you ar emost comfortable with.

Well I applaud you on making well rounded characters, I think that is an excellent endeavor. As for PvM, on my trapper in a lot of situations where you think I'd have trouble, I end up being more of a BF guy than a trapper. This is what I'd do for the diablo clone. Fireblast can be used for a trapper against LI's as well. Even a low level DTalon can be made to work if you really want on a trapper, with small changes in gear. BLACK Runeword Flail/Ethereal Scourge. BLOOD GLoves will give you decent CB, with just two items. -- You can then decide whether its better to be in melee range and attack quicker for more damage or to be out of melee range and do considerably less damage, CB is diminished too since its a ranged attack.

As for your problem of boots off ladder. Make a pair of Safety boots out of magical myriddons. That crafting recipe will work, I hope you get some good mods.

SOmething else to remember about Hybrids: There aren't a lot of great gloves belts, or boots for Trappers, so here are great places to get bonuses for your melee build. Immortal King Set can be good for Strength and AR help. BLOOD gloves and upped Goreriders can help with getting CB. If you go TS/DTail consider Shadow Dancers on the ladder for the abillity to boost CM and WB. Also for the DTail users out there, especially if you have AR that lets you effectively use CS. There will be times where you might want to use DTalon, especially for your first few hits against bosses. Your AR should be good enough with the build, and with no additional points you should still eventually be able to get at least three kicks out of it. Which should allow you to attack about twice as fast as you can attack with DTail. If you have any CB on your DTail build this can help you to do the initial shots with CB, then use your high damage attacks after you have halfed its life.

Best of luck to all.

[lextalionis]

I suppose it may depend on the gear you use, but with the Tail/Trap build, I would assume that the Tail combo would be the main killer, so I would deck my assn out accordingly. IE: Gear that gives +skills, but is also suitable for melee.

The reason is simple. Charms. The 60k is predicated on having an inventory full of them. Without the charms you are looking at more like 35k(I'm guess, but I know it ramps down steaply without +skills). -- Then remember with all TS builds you have to divide the damage by 4 because you are only able to do big damage with every 4th hit.

Second, look at the rest of your gear. In order to keep your traps viable as a damage source a goodly amount of your gear will be used to ramp up their damage. Again remember if we are talking untweaked, you might not be able to even get your damage for LS/CBS up to anything decent. In the balancing act something has to be hurt. If you work hard enough to get your DTail damage up, you'll have almost no trap damage.

You don't have the same problem with DTalon since DTalon is pretty effective at level 18 after plus skills. **(See Below)Whereas you are trying to get DTail to the 30's and above if possible. With tweaked gear the problem becomes much smaller, as you'll have good stuff available to you and you can just split charms in the inventory.

One thing we all need to keep in mind too - just because a build may not hold up in a multiplayer hell game does not mean it is not viable at all. Many people play solo and could do very well with one of these builds without the added difficulty of additional people in the gaem.

I can't agree with you more here and that's why its wrong to say the DTail hybrid won't work. Even untweaked it can be made to work ok in Players one hell.

____________________________
CB -- Its very good attack against high life creatures, but remember the damage remains the same as if it were done in a players 1 game even in a players 8 game. CB will still be a great mod, but it will be less effective in games with more players.

CBS -- I'm not sure at what point this becomes the better boss killer. It probably isn't for most hybrids. Because CBS gets a lot of its bonus from having 18 in Shockweb, adding extra charged bolts. The bosses also have to be big enough to be hit by the majority of the bolts. I'm a great champion of this skill, but I don't know that it works as well for non-pure trappers.

Leveling may be a huge problem for the DTailer hybrid if she isn't leeching. Since her skills will be all over the place.

** Note this might mean that you don't have to max DTalon, saving even more points for traps. If you are planning on +4 or more All Assassin skills from both of your claws (Bartucs would be +6 to DTalon) and +2 from a Necklace then we already have you at level 12 DTalon hard skills. You can probably assume another plus skill from your helm. You see where I'm going with this. All the points you are saving here can make your traps all that much better. DTalon isn't skill level dependant for damage. DTail is very skill level dependant for damage.

[BIGeyedBUG]

Bug, my concern with that build is that Talon, without a bunch of good CB and STR gear, is nothing more than a woodpecker in a dense forest.

I think you're exaggerating quite a bit there sky. :)

Wouldn't it make more sense to combine hybrid skill groups based on their needs? For instance, two skill groups that both require +skills to do good damage?

In this case, no, not really. The +skills don't hurt Talon. They just make it so you can spend even fewer points on it. That equates to more points in traps and other skills.

You said yourself that Talon doesn't need many skills, but what good is it without any CB when the assn is decked out like a sorceress?

As lex already pointed out, Talon is not as dependent on high level gear as you make it sound like. Strength, Black, Goblin Toes, Blood gloves, and a number of otherwise cruddy normal and exceptional uniques make great Talon weapons.

I really think the Tail/Trap hybrid is more gear dependant. What you can't make up for in skill points, has to be made up in equipment.

[lextalionis]

...Goblin Toes... make great Talon weapons.


I've quit trying to get people to use Goblin Toes, even twice upped they just don't have the same base damage as Myridon Greaves. And while the CB is better on them than Myriddons and it can be tempting especially in hybrids where you won't be at 100% CB to use them. The base damage from Myriddons is considerably better.

CB is good, but it won't do that last bit of damage to kill things. For bosses Goblin Toes might actually be better so long as the boss isn't lightning immune. But for anything lightning immune you'll want the most base damage to go along with the CB.

Goblin Toe would make a great leveling item. I'd even upgrade them from normal to exceptional, but for late game you really need to go to a Myridon Greave of some sort. Even just rare Myridons or Crafted Safety Myriddons.

[turmania]

I've quit trying to get people to use Goblin Toes, even twice upped they just don't have the same base damage as Myridon Greaves. And while the CB is better on them than Myriddons and it can be tempting especially in hybrids where you won't be at 100% CB to use them. The base damage from Myriddons is considerably better.

CB is good, but it won't do that last bit of damage to kill things. For bosses Goblin Toes might actually be better so long as the boss isn't lightning immune. But for anything lightning immune you'll want the most base damage to go along with the CB.

Goblin Toe would make a great leveling item. I'd even upgrade them from normal to exceptional, but for late game you really need to go to a Myridon Greave of some sort. Even just rare Myridons or Crafted Safety Myriddons.

best possible and easisest way to reach above 100cb is by upped gores, %10 cb blood gloves, fleshripper or stormlash with ber (i prefer fleshripper) i guess for its cool name, and guilleams face that gives you over 100% cb, in all honesty in one player game u dont even need that much cb, i mosty use upped gores and crafted gloves for 25 % cb which is more then eunf, but for major boss killing like baal or diablo clone more the merrier :)

[lextalionis]

best possible and easisest way to reach above 100cb is by upped gores, %10 cb blood gloves, fleshripper or stormlash with ber (i prefer fleshripper) i guess for its cool name, and guilleams face that gives you over 100% cb, in all honesty in one player game u dont even need that much cb, i mosty use upped gores and crafted gloves for 25 % cb which is more then eunf, but for major boss killing like baal or diablo clone more the merrier :)

For Hybrids, I suggest dumping the Guilliumes for a helm with +2 skills. Guilliume is one of the best melee items in the game, but Helms are a great source of +2 skills. I like the SHako here. Like Turmania says you don't need 100% CB.

And Stormlash is one of the best weapons in the game, it has elemental damage and static on it along with the CB. Its a great weapon.

[Naliworld]

Great topic. :thumbsup: It's nice to see a discussion in danger of going off-course being steered back without any interference from the mod. :)

Matt: I'm going to echo what lextalionis said, and suggest you keep to a pure build(either pure Kicker or pure Trapper) if you want to keep equipment dependence to a minimum.

Going untwinked, it can be somewhat difficult to assemble all the equipment required unless you're patient. Stuff like 'Strength'/'Black' weapons can be easily made, but unless you're extremely lucky at gambling or plan to MF a great deal with the character, you probably won't be encountering a pair of Gore Riders, Guiliaume's Face or Fleshripper anytime soon. Likewise for the DTail Hybrid, you can probably shop a pair of +3 MA claws from Anya with a little time, but you'd be hard pressed to see a Bartuc or a sweet pair of +2 MA gloves dropping.

While you can make up for deficiencies in CB/+skills/Kick damage by improving STR, every point in STR lessens your potential life by 3. Twinked hybrids can add STR pretty much to their liking as they have the luxury of PDR and support skills like Shadows being at a decent level, but you have no such advantage. The worse case scenario is that you'll effectively end up with a gimped Trappper with half her points placed in MA(which she can't use well, due to low life).

In contrast, a pure Kicker would be able to place a great deal less in STR as all her equipment slots can be utilized to increase +STR(this would let her have an edge in melee due to higher life). Not to mention, stuff like FHR and resists, which are often neglected with untwinked hybrids, suddenly become easier to use. A pure Trapper would be able to place all her points in VIT and get her Traps to a nice level, in addition to a full complement of support skills.

Just my two cents. If you're working toward a fully untwinked Hybrid, be sure to expect the challenges you'll be facing.

[mattDP]

Woo, this has turned into some discussion :)

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

I have to say that I'm set on playing a hybrid: one of the things that attracted me to playing an assassin was the fact that it looked like hybrid builds could work effectively, although perhaps in my inexperience I was wrong. For my money, hybrid builds are just more fun to play as you can switch different tactics to use in different situations and the variety helps keep fun in the game.

That's also why I originally wanted to do TS/DTail instead of DTalon: it uses an extra skill, and looks pretty with the orbs and all, and I just figured it'd be more fun to use. Balancing that against the fact that the consensus seems to be that DTalon is better for hybrids makes it a hard choice. I'm put off DTalon because the idea of just having a "kick" no matter how powerful, as my only melee attack just feels weird. Why have claws if you're never going to use them?

On the other hand, although I'm not dead set on ladder-running a level 99 character in the shortest possible time, I'd also like a build which can play effectively in Hell, even with multiple players around.

Looking at the stats for the trap skills, it's easy to see how the synergies would help ramp up the damage a lot if you had the extra skill points to spend on them. When I was first thinking about this build, I didn't know that only "natural" skill points counted toward synergies: it does nerf the plan a bit that it doesn't.

That's why in my original plan I'd stuck 20 points into DS: it does synergise into LS just like CBS and so helps keep the damage up. Plus LS synergises back to DS: it looks like a pretty potent combination.

If I did go DTalon, it'd be a wonder what to do with those extra 20 skill points. Dump some in CBS I suppose for better synergy. Or Even into FB for extra shots on the DS (I can't see it being effective on it's own, even with damage synergies in LS and DS). Or even some into SM?

[ilkori]

CB -- Its very good attack against high life creatures, but remember the damage remains the same as if it were done in a players 1 game even in a players 8 game. CB will still be a great mod, but it will be less effective in games with more players.I'd just like to point out that any form of damage is "scaled down" when you increase the number of players. A constant 500 damage will effectively get scaled down just the same as crushing blow since the overall life of the monster has increased. Think of it this way: You will always do a significant amount of damage with crushing blow and death sentry, although the damage will seem more effective in smaller games.

[BIGeyedBUG]

I have to say that I'm set on playing a hybrid: one of the things that attracted me to playing an assassin was the fact that it looked like hybrid builds could work effectively, although perhaps in my inexperience I was wrong. For my money, hybrid builds are just more fun to play as you can switch different tactics to use in different situations and the variety helps keep fun in the game.

Ok, big tangent: Have you played a Phoenix Striker? I just ask because "variety" is the PSers big draw. And it doesn't take so many points that you can't develop other skills. AND it's doable untwinked. AND AND AND you can keep your eq relatively focused.

Here's my favorite version:

20 PS, CoT
10 FoF, SW
5 WB
Fade or BoS to taste
1 DC, Dflight, BF, MB, CoS, Ven, DS and all prereqs

Finishable around 80. Additional pts to go into FoF most likely.

The main skill consists of three different effects with different tactical applications. Mind Blast a dangerous mob and then CoS them before going in. When things get too hot, or you need to pick off a straggler you Dflight to the edge of the screen. You get to trap set with DS. You use BF on anything you don't want to get to close to. You get to puppeteerthe Warrior. Basically, it suits the definition of hybrid better than many hybrids do. And I guarantee you that if you play hc and un- or low-twinked, you'll use every one of those skills.

end tangent

[Naliworld]

If I did go DTalon, it'd be a wonder what to do with those extra 20 skill points. Dump some in CBS I suppose for better synergy. Or Even into FB for extra shots on the DS (I can't see it being effective on it's own, even with damage synergies in LS and DS). Or even some into SM?

Definitely either pure CBS or a combination between CBS and a Shadow(depending on whether you need safety more or damage more). You already have 3 main attacks(DTalon, DS and LS), maxing another one will only cause you to use the same amount of points on a skill you'll use around 25% of the time. Besides, DTalon and FB share similar properties(FB's small blast radius won't allow it to attack more than 1 monster most of the time, so there's no incentive to use FB over DTalon against LIs. Besides, if you've used equipment slots for getting CB, you might as well use them), and DS's CE provides "half" of a Fire element, without the need for extra skillpoint investment. Whereas, you can always do with better Trap damage.

[mattDP]

Ok, big tangent: Have you played a Phoenix Striker? I just ask because "variety" is the PSers big draw. And it doesn't take so many points that you can't develop other skills. AND it's doable untwinked. AND AND AND you can keep your eq relatively focused.

Here's my favorite version:

20 PS, CoT
10 FoF, SW
5 WB
Fade or BoS to taste
1 DC, Dflight, BF, MB, CoS, Ven, DS and all prereqs

Finishable around 80. Additional pts to go into FoF most likely.

The main skill consists of three different effects with different tactical applications. Mind Blast a dangerous mob and then CoS them before going in. When things get too hot, or you need to pick off a straggler you Dflight to the edge of the screen. You get to trap set with DS. You use BF on anything you don't want to get to close to. You get to puppeteerthe Warrior. Basically, it suits the definition of hybrid better than many hybrids do. And I guarantee you that if you play hc and un- or low-twinked, you'll use every one of those skills.

end tangent

Interesting idea. No, I've never played one before in fact I've never played an assassin before, which is why I'm so clueless :) My previous characters were a standard model blood golem-iron maiden-bone spirit necro, a frenzy barb and a paladin designed specifically for party-play with friends.

A few questions, if you'll oblige:

1) Why 20CoT and 10 FoF? I presume it's mainly for the synergies with PS, but why those skills and those levels? Why not 10 each in CoT, CoI and FoF?

2) Why level 1 venom? Can't see it being much use for anything

3) Why level 1 BF. Ditto that I can't see that doing much either

4) Why SW instead of SM? I know that you get to pick the skills on SW but is that really such a great bonus?

5) Using (I presume) DFlight or DC as a finishing move at skill level 1, doesn't that get kind of hard to hit things with later in the game?

[ilkori]

I'm not BIGeyedBUG, but the Phoenix Striker was one of my favorite builds, and I think I can answer the questions the same way he would.


1) Having 20 CoT and 20 Phoenix creates an awesome synergy set, and that combination has the highest of any of the elemental damages. Fire is a backup more than anything.

2) 1 Venom gives more than you give credit. ;) With +skills it will be higher. In addition, it adds another type of damage to help you with immune monsters.

3) Blade Fury does 3/4 of your displayed weapon damage (don't count the bonuses from charges since BF is not a finisher). It is most useful in the Chaos Sanctuary and WSK when you have to deal with IM. It's ranged with a fixed attack speed, meaning you only have to focus on damage.

4) Shadow Warrior is far more controllable. If there is a pack of Lightning immunes, she won't do something stupid like lay a lightning trap. On the other hand, I prefer the Master because I don't like taking the time to 'teach' everything to the Warrior.

5) Dragon Claw has a GREAT AR bonus on it, and you don't really need it for damage. The other typical release for Phoenix Strikers is the normal attack. However, if you are using two claws anyway then the bonuses from DC are superior to whacking with a normal attack. Dragon Flight is almost purely for transportation (and I use the skill heavily).

[mattDP]

1) Having 20 CoT and 20 Phoenix creates an awesome synergy set, and that combination has the highest of any of the elemental damages. Fire is a backup more than anything.


I'm still not sure I get this. Do the damage synergies stack (i.e. do you still get bonus lightning damage from CoT if you're using PS to deliver cold damage)? If not, then why lightning, rather than cold or fire? It's got a higher upper limit, but a lower lower limit than the other two and surely they cancel each other out. Plus, going for cold bolt has the advantage of freezing the foe.


2) 1 Venom gives more than you give credit. ;) With +skills it will be higher. In addition, it adds another type of damage to help you with immune monsters.


Okay, for 1 skill point it isn't going to hurt I guess :)


3) Blade Fury does 3/4 of your displayed weapon damage (don't count the bonuses from charges since BF is not a finisher). It is most useful in the Chaos Sanctuary and WSK when you have to deal with IM. It's ranged with a fixed attack speed, meaning you only have to focus on damage.


Ah I didn't realise that. Do STR and other damage bonuses count? If so I can see how even level 1 could stay very useful. Does it transfer elemental effects or other cool stuff from weapons?


4) Shadow Warrior is far more controllable. If there is a pack of Lightning immunes, she won't do something stupid like lay a lightning trap. On the other hand, I prefer the Master because I don't like taking the time to 'teach' everything to the Warrior.


I can see myself preferring the Master for similar reasons


5) Dragon Claw has a GREAT AR bonus on it, and you don't really need it for damage. The other typical release for Phoenix Strikers is the normal attack. However, if you are using two claws anyway then the bonuses from DC are superior to whacking with a normal attack. Dragon Flight is almost purely for transportation (and I use the skill heavily).

Is it worth dropping a few extra points in DC if you feel like it then? It's attack bonus at level one is a paltry 40% ... although I can see a few extra skill levels from equipment will ramp it up pretty fast.

[skygoneblue]

Claw Mastery is generally a better idea than Dragon Claw (for extra skill points). CM ups your AR, damage, and change to critical. DC only ups your damage and AR.

However, once CM begins to give less AR and damage per point investment than DC (which I imagine you probably won't run into until the 90s), then put points into DC.

[mattDP]

Claw Mastery is generally a better idea than Dragon Claw (for extra skill points). CM ups your AR, damage, and change to critical. DC only ups your damage and AR.

However, once CM begins to give less AR and damage per point investment than DC (which I imagine you probably won't run into until the 90s), then put points into DC.

I just read your guide to this build. Very nice. A lot of the assassin guides don't seem to bother explaining *why* they make certain skill and equipment choices over others: yours explains very clearly. Answered a lot of my questions about this build.

It's certainly a tempting one to try. It's amazing that there are soooo many "1 point wonder" skills for the assassin you can just make so many variations on the theme!

[skygoneblue]

:lol: Thanks man. So are you totally abandoning the DTail build? I know you can focus primarily on Phoenix Strike, or you can make the TS/DTail combo and then easily focus on PS and CoT (for example).

Let me know if you have any questions. Myself (or turmania, or bug, or ilkori, or anyone else here) would gladly help you out!

[mattDP]

:lol: Thanks man. So are you totally abandoning the DTail build? I know you can focus primarily on Phoenix Strike, or you can make the TS/DTail combo and then easily focus on PS and CoT (for example).


I'm still not sure which one to go for! I was going to start last night, but then I had a fairly major plumbing accident and flooded the kitchen, which kind of put paid to that plan. I'm busy the next few days so I can mull it over.

Like I said, it's tempting: I get to use MA skills that everyone agrees are effective, plus traps (in the form of DS) and a missile attack (BF) and the basic build of 20 PS, 20 CoT gives me a lot of extra points I can use to tailor the character as I wish: maybe venom, or FoF, or SM or CM.

On the other hand, I still reckon that TS/DTail with LS/DS could work quite well, and it's got a balance of good melee and trap skills as opposed the PS which, despite it's versatility is still melee-based. But it's very skill point hungry!

It seems that the DTalon route, although obviously effective, has the DTalon more as a bolt-on to the basic trapper build and that's not really what I was after. Too lightning focused for one thing, and I can imagine getting bored just setting the traps and finishing off the survivors with the kicks.

[turmania]

major problem we have over here is that u can make many different forms of asssassin and therefore so many different ideas.

firstly i have to say is make a build which u enjoy playing with it, u like tiger strike i know i used to. but be prepared to know that 50% of your chance to hit will be a miss. unless u use ignore target defence.
secondly, what equipment, charms and all u got for your assaassins. i believe u are going to go for dual claw route with bartucs. but other equipments play a major role as well.

in a build where u like to go dtail/tstrike/light traps, you are gonna be mainly melee with traps as a back up. 2 important factors here since u will be in a melee range most of the time, and u will miss a lot. resistance and damage reduce. those 2 are a vital i think for this kinda build. next important ones are life leech, faster hit recovery which will be covered up by bartucs and u need to find either a cham or can not be frozen armor or a raven. since last think u want when meleing is being frozen.
i will always prefer a dtalon/lightning route for overall game play. but u can have a shot at the build u want to make, dtail.tstrike.ligh traps. and let us know how it goes.

[skygoneblue]

Just for clarification Turm, how bad is the hit rate of TS? I have a Phoenix Striker than can hit Hell Baal reasonably consistantly with MA charge ups.

If it is really a huge problem, he could also JAH his main Bartuc for ITD. That would help immensely.

[mattDP]

It's just occured to me that the basic PS build needs 40 points, just like the basic DTail/TS build. So you could actually do a PS build with lightning traps if you wanted!

Oh, the dilemma! :scratch:

[skygoneblue]

You could, but the basic PS build uses lightning damage from the 2nd charge of PS and CoT. Lightning + Lightning = DUMB! ;)

[mattDP]

You could, but the basic PS build uses lightning damage from the 2nd charge of PS and CoT. Lightning + Lightning = DUMB! ;)

Well I did say if you wanted :)

[skygoneblue]

:lol: I hear yah man. However, I also pondered doing a Blades of Ice/Phoenix Strike/Lightning Trap hybrid.

20 BoI
20 PS

20 LS
20 CBS

How neat would that be? ;)

[mattDP]

:lol: I hear yah man. However, I also pondered doing a Blades of Ice/Phoenix Strike/Lightning Trap hybrid.

20 BoI
20 PS

20 LS
20 CBS

How neat would that be? ;)

Well if we're getting silly, why not do a claw/shield FoF/PS and lighting trap combo. Big fire and lightning damge potential, and just the one claw to avoid double-charging PS by accident :)

[skygoneblue]

Neat idea, but you can only charge PS one at a time with two claws anyway. ;)

[lextalionis]

It seems that the DTalon route, although obviously effective, has the DTalon more as a bolt-on to the basic trapper build and that's not really what I was after. Too lightning focused for one thing, and I can imagine getting bored just setting the traps and finishing off the survivors with the kicks.
Matt,

I just wanted to say that this build isn't as "non-fun" as you think. You have lots of variations. DTalon is a good attack, the kills from Talon setup DS. LS can go off at the same time as your attacking in melee. Even completely synergized, untweaked you'll find that LS won't kill as fast as you'd hope. In some situations, you'll have to use BF because you won't want to go into melee range.

I found it to be very fun and active. Almost all assassin builds are similar to Necro builds in that you will be using a lot of different spells all the time. So you will feel more engaged.

For that matter, pure trappers take a lot of strategy and thinking to play. Its not like you just cast traps and sit there. There is a lot of management to do. But I found my hybrid DTalon/LS to be the most fun. It was my first 1.10 character.

_________________

Playing untweaked, no matter what build you decide on. Even if you normally decided to use Burst of Speed most of the time. Don't forget that you have Fade too. Fade is so helpful for tough situations. Use it not only is it lower curse durations and grant better resistances, it also grants % physical damage reduction. You'll have a hard time finding that on gear untweaked. By using this with even a few plus skills from LOre helm and then 2X +3 Shadow SKill claws on weapon switch for buffing Venom, Burst of Speed, Fade , and SHadow Master/Warrior, you will be able to have a high enough level to make a difference, especially if you are going to throw yourself into melee range.

[BIGeyedBUG]

I'm still not sure I get this. Do the damage synergies stack (i.e. do you still get bonus lightning damage from CoT if you're using PS to deliver cold damage)? If not, then why lightning, rather than cold or fire? It's got a higher upper limit, but a lower lower limit than the other two and surely they cancel each other out. Plus, going for cold bolt has the advantage of freezing the foe.

Even fully synergized, the ice damage is very bad. The charges main use is for freeze, and it doesn't need synergization to do that.

As far as recommending 20 CoT/10 FoF (to start), I feel that the lightning charge needs the synergization more than the fire to be effective. I've used an unsynergized meteor deep into Hell, and while it wasn't easy at all, it did eventually get the job done. The unsynergized lightning I gave up on after Act 1.

Ah I didn't realise that. Do STR and other damage bonuses count? If so I can see how even level 1 could stay very useful. Does it transfer elemental effects or other cool stuff from weapons?

Yes and yes. The details are in the FAQ.

I can see myself preferring the Master for similar reasons

The SW isn't as hard to use as you might think. And it's got 4 big advantages over the SM:

--It's a reliable tank. It doesn't fall back periodically to lay traps.
--It doesn't disappear. The SM does a fair amount.
--It doesn't use MB when you don't want it to.
--It can be used to overlap CoS timers.

OTOH, the SM has a chance to kill things in Hell. And its useage of MB and DS can be really helpful, especially solo. Part of my preference for SWs is that I play hc and untwinked. Part of it is that I've been playing Assassins for a long time, and enjoy having another thing to control. Although the SW isn't difficult to use, the SM's the easier choice if you're just getting use to the build. They're fun just to watch too.l

Is it worth dropping a few extra points in DC if you feel like it then? It's attack bonus at level one is a paltry 40% ... although I can see a few extra skill levels from equipment will ramp it up pretty fast.

With just 6 +skills, a level 1 (7) DC exceeds the AR of a level 20 (26) PS. DC really doesn't need to be pumped unless you're looking to increase your phys damage.