Wolfbarbs: Speed vs Damage

[Time Burglar]

I'm having some trouble choosing which Weapon to use for my Wolfbarb. A popular choice seems to be Griswold's Redemption with 4 Shael's socketed, but as far as damage goes, that doesn't do a whole lot. Something I've been considering is Azurewrath with a Shael, 'cause even if its speed doesn't match up, it adds much more damage and even gives +1 to all Skills. Basically it comes down to Attack Speed vs Attack Damage.... what d'you Wolfbarb users think about this? :scratch:

[JohnKerry]

I use Griswold's Redemption, it's fast but I could really use a boost of damage. I mean, even with max dmg/ar charms, I'm doing 950 or so. It's still very little compared to everyone. I can say overall, my Wolfbarb is pretty formidable, I'm planning to maybe put a Death's Cleaver with sheal on him and see how that goes.

[shaftstop]

For gris, i dunno i was gunna suggest maybe just filling with misc ED jewels if it already has enough speed, then theres always lightsaber or azurewrath,.

[OiMan21]

Use a beast runeword zerker. :thumbsup:
it has been magical for me (i get a max of 1900 damage w/o charms)

[Time Burglar]

How many frames with your Beast Runeword 'Zerker?

[OiMan21]

How many frames with your Beast Runeword 'Zerker?

i dunno. its pretty fast. not as fast as a 6 shaeled phase blade or a 4 shael gris caddy, but it does its job :). The zerker has speed of 0, beast gives 40% ias, and it also gives a lvl 9 fanaticism, which boosts damage and attack speed (im not sure by how much tho).

[OiMan21]

it also adds to lycanthropy, meaning more life and longer duration as a werewolf

[abtarkerpal]

i dunno. its pretty fast. not as fast as a 6 shaeled phase blade or a 4 shael gris caddy, but it does its job :). The zerker has speed of 0, beast gives 40% ias, and it also gives a lvl 9 fanaticism, which boosts damage and attack speed (im not sure by how much tho).

the fanaticism aura does not apply when your turn into wolf form :(
if it did beast would be THE choice.... the +lycan is nice though
Time Burgal, if you already put points into mace mastery, then i would go with a 4 40ed/15ias soc caddy. It doesn't get 4fpa like a shaeld does, but it does nice damage.

[Zero-unit]

That Beast Zerker is hitting the 9 frame break.

Dr@kE~

[OiMan21]

the fanaticism aura does not apply when your turn into wolf form :( .

noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!! :(

[[exile]]

tsk tsk. beast? 9fps? booooo. wolfbarbs were made for SPEED.
ill tell you the truth, IMO, the only two weaps wolfbarbs should even consider are:
-botd phase blade
-shael'd azure

simply for the speed. ive never tested with the multi-shael'd griz caddy.. but either way, the other two options deal loads more damage. azure is mostly elemental, yes.. but hey, nobody can resist that 250-500 magic damage. (im assuming, after all, that your wolfbarb is pvp. cause pvm is FAR too slow.)

the weapon of choice here would be the botd pb. notice how feral rage is a life leech attack... and notice how life leech depends on physical damage only...

of course, not many people are willing to spend the runes for a botd pb instead of, for example, eth cb/zerk/ws. unless theyre DEDICATED duelers.

just as a side note, my LEGIT wolfbarb (with only items mfed by me or a friend) dealt 1209 - 1849 damage at about 5fps, with a shael'd azure.

if you really, really want to use a griz caddy, the best way is with 2 shaels and 2x 40/15s. this still hits the breakpoint.

//[exile]

[OiMan21]

']tsk tsk. beast? 9fps? booooo. wolfbarbs were made for SPEED//[exile]

i attack fast enough for me. i beat another wolfbarb who was using a 4 shaeled gris caddy and godly gear with my beast zerker. and it wasnt by luck or bad dueling on his part, i just shift locked him and beat the crap outta him.

[Time Burglar]

This may be a dumb question, but what is a Shift Lock?

[OiMan21]

This may be a dumb question, but what is a Shift Lock?

hold shift and click the guy. a zerker has a range of 3. gris caddy range of 2. it helps hit the guy when he goes in/out of your range

[Time Burglar]

Alright, thanks for lettin' me know. Does anyone know for sure if a Griswold's Redemption with two Shael's + two 40/15 Jewels have the same speed as a Griswold's Redemption with 4 Shael's?

[Zero-unit]

95% IAS Grisworld's Caducues is 5 frames, a 120% IAS Grisworld's Caducues is 4 frames.

Dr@kE~

[pipi-owner]

lol exactly wat i was gonna say.... wolfbarb need gris caddy at 120%ias to hit 4fps... otherwise its uselss....
i will win 7/10 duels with a wolfbarb exactly like mine using azurath or pb botd....they'r jst way too slow (n if u go against a pally... .. .. dnt even think about it...)
i will almost interupt their attack every 2nd time.. the OW is wat kills...not the big botd dmg......

cheers

[evild2player]

eth dimensional botd > pb botd
edit: then again theres always the faster pb..

[Zero-unit]

Oh? A 0 base speed > 30 base. Sure its damage is superior but it is rather slow, 8 frame over 6.

Dr@kE~

[evild2player]

yeah well, i saw someone say that before >_< so i just brought it up again

[Sum Yung Guy]

Ok I don't get it. It shouldn't be that hard to hit the last breakpoint with a caddy. All you need is 129% IAS. Ok so break it down

were wolf gives: 63%
caddy has: 40%
4 x 40/15: 60

Is that right?

[Zero-unit]

You dont count the Werewolf speed bonus. All this applies after it. Origonal speed needed to achieve 4 frames is 130% in total so a Grisworld's Caducues is -10 right so you need 120% more ias to get it to 130%. Do you get it?

Dr@kE~

[Sum Yung Guy]

You dont count the Werewolf speed bonus. All this applies after it. Origonal speed needed to achieve 4 frames is 130% in total so a Grisworld's Caducues is -10 right so you need 120% more ias to get it to 130%. Do you get it?

Dr@kE~

I guess though it doesn't make sense....

So your saying the IAS from werewolf doesn't mean anything? then why make a wolf barb?

but still if your right you can still do that.

4 x 40/15 = 60
gloves = 20
40/15 helm/armor/shield = 80+45 = 125%

so by the weapon speed calc that would be 7.5 fpa?

[Zero-unit]

I'm saying the Werewolf ias is inputted but all calculations are made after that.

Dr@kE~

[Sum Yung Guy]

Then your wrong according to the calc in the faq

[Sum Yung Guy]

this is why:

if the weapon has 100% IAS (caddy has 40% built in + 4x 40/15)
then all you need is 60 external

which like lvl 13 werewolf.

There is no way in hell you would need 130% AFTER werewolf. That is like 195% total to hit the last breakpoint. the calc doesn't agree with you.

:wink2: :stoned:

[Har-Megiddo]

i defer to zero on wolfbarb speeds, he has been right so far.

and it's also the reason i ask him about speed, because all the calcs are screwed up. i swear he uses a special (read: accurate) one and calls it dragoons just to mess with our heads.

[ToThePoint]

sum yung guy, you are a wolfbarb not a barb.
TheDragoons calc shows you need 120weapon ias with a caddy to get 3 frame feral.
If you know anything about druids attack speeds then you will know that oias has very little or no effect when using a fast weapon anyway - check the druid forum sticky for the ias calc for a druid or other char in druid form.

nba - 6 frame and 4 frame according to calculator. (assuming 120ias gris is 3)
http://students.washington.edu/akrinke/wereformadvanced.html

[NBAallstar]

What frame would BOTD BA hit? What about ROBO ZERKER(95ias)? How much extra IAS do I need on equipment to hit the fastest speed?

[ToThePoint]

see above:
zero- or someone: is max speed 4 or 3? The calc shows 3 and thats the break you use but you say 4?
I thought this was one of the few attacks that went faster than 4 frame?

[NBAallstar]

Am I correct to assume then that I would need 35 extra IAS from other equipment to get to 130ias using the Robo Zerk to hit 3 fps(95+35)?

[ToThePoint]

no, oias doesn't affect fast weapons of characters in druid form. (like i said in my 1st post in this thread :))
Think of it like Whirl wind. For whirling, an ias jewel in helm wont give a slow weapon the next break and for a fast weapon in druid form off weapon ias doesn't matter much if at all.
Check the link :)

When calculating the speed of attack there are 2 main parts in the equation.
One involves :base speed, skill ias (werewolf) and a term derived from any ias (including off weapon)
This term is capped at 75% though.
For the example of caddy and using level 6 werewolf. that would be:
10 (base)+48 (feral) +enough to give 17% (derived from 120ias/(120+ias) ) ias to max it.
For a caddy this works out to be 20%ias anywhere.
As the weapon will have over 20ias on it then you can get all ias to max this term from just the weapon very easily.
However, there is a second term and the only factors you can really change in it are the weapons base speed and the weapon ias.
Thats why weapon ias is the main factor in getting a fast attack and why oias is useless with a fast weapon.

[NBAallstar]

I see. Thnx ToThePoint.

[Omikron8]

I'm having some trouble choosing which Weapon to use for my Wolfbarb. A popular choice seems to be Griswold's Redemption with 4 Shael's socketed, but as far as damage goes, that doesn't do a whole lot. Something I've been considering is Azurewrath with a Shael, 'cause even if its speed doesn't match up, it adds much more damage and even gives +1 to all Skills. Basically it comes down to Attack Speed vs Attack Damage.... what d'you Wolfbarb users think about this? :scratch:

In PvP a 4 frame feral rage is truly amazing for stunning spellcasters with crappy hit recovery such as sorcs, wind druids and necros

the damage range on griz caddy is pretty small so this allows for fast hits with consistent damage

i combine the weapon with war travs because the +15-25 damage is multiplied by strength, skills, might merc, etc.

[Sum Yung Guy]

ok well that was all really confusing so I guess my questions are this:

1: how much external IAS do I need with griz caddy 4 x 40/15 and lvl 14 werewolf?

2. How much external IAS do I need with botd phase and lvl 14 werewolf?

3. botd warspike?

Thanks.

[Zero-unit]

External IAS doesn't apply. BoTD Warspike is 9 frames, BoTD BA is 9 frames, Robo BA is 7 frames. I use the normal attack chart for my speeds on TheDragoon's calculator, and 120% IAS Grisworld's Caduceus is 4 frames not 3.(3 is impossible.) And to keep you un-confused don't worry about the Wolf IAS bonus just concentrate on how much you need for a specific weapon.

Dr@kE~

[Sum Yung Guy]

ok the confusing thing is this:

you say "external IAS doesn't apply". What does that mean? It has to have some effect hence jewels, gloves with IAS ect. Now also, why doesn't the wereform skill IAS apply?

Ok another thing with Dragoons calc. If you put in "mace" and "10" base weapon speed (it's -10 i think on grizz) and 100 weapon IAS it says 5 frames. Adding 20 external IAS doesn't bring it up either. So how do you get it to do 4 frames? The weapon can only have 100 IAS total with 4 x 40/15.

Also if you pick "one handed sword" (ie. botd phase) with 30 base and then apply the 60 ias from botd it only says 6 frames. Shouldn't it be faster than that?

Also, it 5 frames with grizz enough? I want to use it but I don't know if it will be fast enough.

BUT if you use feral rage instead of standard attack it lowers it to 4 frames.

Confusing...

[Omikron8]

4 shaels in griz caddy will bring it up to 120% IAS which is definitely worth it for the 4 frame attack

[OiMan21]

i just dumped my beast zerk for an eth botd warspike and its great! =D

i must be the only wolfbarb i know that uses an axe.

[Zero-unit]

To make things easier for you and me lets not talk about the Werewolf IAS bonus, you just have to concentrate on how much IAS you need in wolf-form. Feral Rage chart is wrong and in order to achieve 4 frames as of us instated before you need 120% IAS on the Caducues which in total added with the base speed is 130%. Remember, yes Phase Blade is about the fastest 1-h weapon in the game but thats by the base speed of it. It would still take 100% IAs to make a Phase Blade reach 4 frames which in total is 130% including the base speed. Yes you can use that kind of Caducues if perfer a little more damage over a 4 frames Caducues. I HOPE this answered your question.

Dr@kE~

[Sum Yung Guy]

Yes it did. You should really consider a career working with mentally handicapped children like myself.

[squigipapa]

To the original question:

Personally, I'd go with the Azure. it's an awsome weapon, super fast, even faster with the shael you were saying you'd put in it. it's got nice damage for it's weapon type (phase) but the best part is you're doing 500-1000 magic/cold damage on each swing. that's a nice amount of elemental damage, half of which is highly un-resistable. Not to mention the huge damage to undead, for PvM'ing. I honestly don't know if the griz caddy would be better or if a beast would give you more displayed damage or whatever.. all I can say is that I use the azure on my frenzier and my enchantress and friggin love it! so at least give it a try and see what you like better..

Just my $0.02