Way for a BvCaster to have a chance bvb?

[luis19]

My ww barb does pretty good all around, but one thing that I noticed is that a barb using high d armor is pretty much impossible for me to beat. Are there any suggestions to beef up my barb for bvb with a base strength of 66?

I was thinking adding a fury zerker might help my ar and maybe throw in a eth zod arreats (upped too expensive since im making a windy with gc lifers).

Any other suggestions?

my gear is
arreats
botd zerker
verdungos
dusk enigma
ss (cham/um)
highlords+ravens/angelics
gores/treks
steelrends
demonlimb for enchant

ar ranges from 21k-29k
dmg ranges from about a max of 4k-5k
life is around 6.2k

[Grantage]

This almost already is a Bvb build... just with lower strength. Bvc builds emphasize using 2 handed weapons (Eth GP, Eth Ghost spear) since you wont need to be blocking something from a caster....

Also you wouldnt want an up'd Eth peice of armor.... when you up an eth peice of armor it lowers its defense... or at least it did for me. I think its a bug considering it only happens for armors and not weapons. The only way i could think of to improve your build would be if your using 2X ravens then to use a Really nice Metalgrid to help with Ar/Def/Res.

[Oversized_D2player]

Grantage. 2 ravens + melalgrid will suck for BvB dueling. Your ar compared to a Dual angelic set up will be pathetic somewhere around 12-15k for a perfect combo with enchant compared to 24k+ with angelics.
When dueling casters it is generally better to duel wield either doom/beast for a second lot of damage or Wiz spike in the off hand for resists and much faster cast for tele-chasing.

For this build you get around 20-23k defense?

(Note some of these ideas were stolen directly from dumbpig's advice off these forums and then tested by me so they do work)

Ok BvB. Imho use dracs for the OW. It's very very useful BvB and the + 15str will be a big help which gives us 81 str. i assume u have a reasonable annhilus (+15stats) and that should get u to around 96 then u would need 10 str from charms=106 enought to equip botd=136+arreats=156+SS=186 str in total.
Now come the hard bit. U need to get a hold of a 3 socket Eth Archon or Kraken shell. Most people throw these away and you will probably be able to get one pretty damn cheap and u might need a few because they will die on u (durability). Make duress

Shael + Um + Thul
+40% Faster Hit Recovery
+10-20% Enhanced Damage (varies)
Adds 37-133 Cold Damage
15% Chance of Crushing Blow
33% Chance of Open Wounds

With dracs u will have 48% chance for open wounds and a defence between
1500 and 2250 obviously u want a high one to start with and get it up to 2k ish


So based on 100 base def eqates to about 800 Def after a normal lvl 35 shout. And an eth arreats and eth duress could add u around 800 defence so an increase of 6400 on what u have now is certainly possible. While sacrificing a tiny amount of dmg (steelrends) and addin OW, CB and 40%Fhr

[mstrnicegui]

@Grantage: what you're noticing is a bug. Upgrading eth armors makes them lose the inherent 50% bonus to def that eth armors get. You still get the lower requirements and the inability to repair it, but the loss of the def bonus makes it too crappy.

@luis19: A dedicated bvb build with high def will always be better than you. There is no way to build a universal character that can do well against everyone. You can make a character that is good against casters, or one that is good against melee. While it's true that there isn't too much difference between building against the two, the strength req for the higher def armors is extremely prohibitive for this.

[ReVolution]

My barb with max shout and lvl 1 base iron skin still takes down all but the absolute best bvbers..all you need is a good duress or eth valor and a bit of luck... and don't be afraid to use a widowmaker if they can't tele :D

[Mehatesmaphack]

My barb with max shout and lvl 1 base iron skin still takes down all but the absolute best bvbers..all you need is a good duress or eth valor and a bit of luck... and don't be afraid to use a widowmaker if they can't tele :D

lol don't you think widowmaker is a bit time consuming against 7K+ life barbs.

[rikstaker]

Like Ovy said above,its best to dualwield against casters,so you wont be investing any in dex & shooting for high life.But when you go off against barbs,you will have to use a shield with max block.With base dexterity,it isn't possible.So its best to do what gui said,build dedicated duelers.Jack of all trades suck at all trades*>.<

*when going off against dedicated duelers,high defense Barbs in particular. You wont suck when you go up against other jacks.

Rik

[ReVolution]

lol don't you think widowmaker is a bit time consuming against 7K+ life barbs.
when they can't tele, yeah..it catches them off guard and you can spam them with ga, get o/w and lifetap on them, and the damage adds up, in addition to your normal wwing. Of course they get pissed but..

[ReVolution]

Like Ovy said above,its best to dualwield against casters,so you wont be investing any in dex & shooting for high life.But when you go off against barbs,you will have to use a shield with max block.With base dexterity,it isn't possible.So its best to do what gui said,build dedicated duelers.Jack of all trades suck at all trades*>.<

*when going off against dedicated duelers,high defense Barbs in particular. You wont suck when you go up against other jacks.

Rik
It's very possible to make a barb that can do well against anything? Don't believe it? *XE-RevolutioN or *blobs on uswest sc nl.

[rikstaker]

@Rev: What? you can prove that by pwning me.... :uhhuh: Besides I am Europe..more besides..I am off bnet until I fix my comp & finish the guide. :lol: even more besides,I am not exactly a lucky guy,so you'd pwn me anyway :hanky:
-------
But tis an accepted fact..generic duelers dont fare well against dedicated duelers,due to issues with dex for block,str for high defense.

Putforth some arguments & share your experience,provide some explanation on how you managed to do well against everyone, according to you.

Whats your stat/weapon/gear setup..whats your success rate against particular characters give numbers..Provide some backing, instead of flexing your muscles. :yawn:

Rik

[luis19]

Hmmm. That info from blobs seems to be really good. Only prob, inventory space. Would dropping say bloodfist/treks out to hold dracs+armor be worth it?

I fair well with my overall gear vs basically any class, but occassionally a i piss off some casters and they bring a decked out bvb barb and its pretty annoying. In those duels, the main thing I lack is defense and OW, so I'm considering blobs bvb advice.

For gear I'm thinking more on the lines of:
arreats
anglics
ss cham
botd
dungos
dracs
gores
dusk 2k stone?

I'll lose some OW, but I can get an armor that isn't eth and still gets high defense.

[Mehatesmaphack]

Hmmm. That info from blobs seems to be really good. Only prob, inventory space. Would dropping say bloodfist/treks out to hold dracs+armor be worth it?

I fair well with my overall gear vs basically any class, but occassionally a i piss off some casters and they bring a decked out bvb barb and its pretty annoying. In those duels, the main thing I lack is defense and OW, so I'm considering blobs bvb advice.

For gear I'm thinking more on the lines of:
arreats
anglics
ss cham
botd
dungos
dracs
gores
dusk 2k stone?

I'll lose some OW, but I can get an armor that isn't eth and still gets high defense.

blobs, revolution and I all use dracs against all classes for the ow and occasionally life tap, for me the life tap is perticularly useful since i'm a ww/frenzy hybrid.

[rikstaker]

Make that :all serious duelers use dracs.You can hit 100% ow with fury,gores & dracs.You dont need duress in that case,kingslayer also gets you close.Botd/cleaver barbs even when using dracs cant manage high ow,since using duress would mean sacrificing defense from something like eth carapace or valor.

Rik

[luis19]

So would more open woulds (duress) or more defense (stone) be more viable?
My barb reaches like 29k ar with angelics + enchant as well.

[rikstaker]

Use duress,only an eth armor like carapace,or zodded valor would be more valuable for you,if you stone isnt eth,use duress.

Rik

[dumbpig]

an eth carapace has around 2600 defense

a mediocre eth elite armor duress has 2200 defense

carapace has 400 defense, after edefense bonuses thats about 2400 displayed defense, or, vs a 20k AR opponent, roughtly 3.2% decrease in the amount of hits you take. Thats next to nothing.

however, dracs and gores gives a total OW of 35%, and duress gives 33% by itself.

eth carapce: 3% more "block"
eth duress: literally double the chance that you will open wounds, has 15% crushing blow too as well as enhanced damage and stuff.

eth duress > everything else by a large margin unless you use eth death cleaver build

as for AR, the difference between 16k ar and 24k AR is roughly a 12% increase in the rate of hitting. however, by wearing 16k ar and using highlords, its possible to get 35% more deadly strike, which gives you 28.6% greater chance of double damage. if double damage counts as "two hits" basically, its clear that raven/highlords FAR outreaches angelics

who doubts this, fight eric and i. none of us have weird ethereal bugged gear, not even upgraded gear, 16k ar/16k defense. I dont think any bvb barb using his own warcries and enchant has beaten me best out of 5, and i never prebuff warcry with anything but 2 knives.

that means yes, in fact, an anti-caster build is better than the bvb build for bvb, as well.

[luis19]

Thanks for info blobs.
I think Ill try that duress thing out.

One thing thou, won't that eth duress break pretty quick?

[dumbpig]

thats why u only need shael um and tir for it lol

as for me, i just use a regular old 1400 defense wyrmhide one thats not even etheral, and its works awesome.

[mstrnicegui]

in pvp durability points drop much more slowly than usual. So, it won't break as quickly as you'd be used to in pvm.

[luis19]

Ill probably use a dusk one. Now to try to get enough strength to wear equip.
60 base strength.
Strength scs might help but i have very limited space.

[Zigot_HD]

Which is better to make duress:
I have:
580 balrog skin - medium armor, STR req: 165!!!
508 Scarab Husk - light armor, STR req: 95.
458 dusk shroud - light armor, STR req 77. ( i plan to make this an Enigma )

580 is nice but it's prolly too heavy to run after those tele-casters....while bvb don't need to run.
Thx

[luis19]

Overall, dusk gives optimal defense for the strength req and is light so no r/w penalty.
And it looks tight.

[thing]

has anyone considered an upgraded toothrow?
40% chance of open wounds+220ed
and one open socket for a pul which would bring it to a max of 250 ed or a -req jewel

also is razor's edge any good over fury-
more ed,ds, 50% ow (75% with um)
or does the range kill it?

[mstrnicegui]

range is an important factor in ww. While it's not everything, a range 1 weapon is too much to overcome to do serious dmg. If razor's edge was range 3, it'd be a decent weapon even though its dmg is still low.

While upgraded toothrow would be pretty nice, duress is much better as it's only a few % lower ow AND it has ds and cb and a host of other mods. They'll cost about the same too. Toothrow is more of a melee armor anyways.

[luis19]

Don't forget the tight strength requirements. Without botd I can't wear anything. And currently with duress on, I have to equip this 100+ar strength ring to allow me to equip and also had to socket my arreats with a 15max/9strength jewel

[Alexsc25]

My wolfbarb, QareGG, currently uses an up'd toothrow (215) And is tweaked around 2 ravens/metalgrid. So far, on ladder, I have not faced a barb OR paladin that can beat me. Take that Oversized_D2player. Ravens and metalgrid. And I've faced so many exile/dcleaver/botd/cta/younameit paladins and so many botd/dcleaver/younameit barbarians... that I feel I know what I am talking about!

[mcm]

an eth carapace has around 2600 defense

a mediocre eth elite armor duress has 2200 defense

carapace has 400 defense, after edefense bonuses thats about 2400 displayed defense, or, vs a 20k AR opponent, roughtly 3.2% decrease in the amount of hits you take. Thats next to nothing.

however, dracs and gores gives a total OW of 35%, and duress gives 33% by itself.

eth carapce: 3% more "block"
eth duress: literally double the chance that you will open wounds, has 15% crushing blow too as well as enhanced damage and stuff.

eth duress > everything else by a large margin unless you use eth death cleaver build

as for AR, the difference between 16k ar and 24k AR is roughly a 12% increase in the rate of hitting. however, by wearing 16k ar and using highlords, its possible to get 35% more deadly strike, which gives you 28.6% greater chance of double damage. if double damage counts as "two hits" basically, its clear that raven/highlords FAR outreaches angelics

who doubts this, fight eric and i. none of us have weird ethereal bugged gear, not even upgraded gear, 16k ar/16k defense. I dont think any bvb barb using his own warcries and enchant has beaten me best out of 5, and i never prebuff warcry with anything but 2 knives.

that means yes, in fact, an anti-caster build is better than the bvb build for bvb, as well.

I don't see how this will beat a barb equipped with similar gear but with 75% block on a shield (unless you're talking about having 75% block on a shield for this anti-caster build too?.. it's not clear if you are or are not.)

[rikstaker]

The post that shall last the end of time...

I agree with mcm * :surprise: * ..yes..I am a skeptic.I cant see how a caster killer without max block,high def,ar can regularly beat a specialized bvber with max block,high defense,ar..the odds against you are far too many, unless you are saying bvbers dont beat you 5/5 but 4/5...or like mcm said you have a somewhat lopsided caster killer with maxblock..wierd... :scratch: or you guys rock..like breaking/bending ar,def,block rules like in the matrix :cheesy:

humour aside..I cant make much of the statement:"anticaster build is better than a bvb build for bvb"

as for 16k ar numbers without angelics..I'll try to figure out the gear setup to hit that, since you guys are keeping your success formula a secret..come on now.."who doubts this.. fight us" is it so hot?

Rik :strong:
---------
no offense intended..please keep it lite & cool.

[rikstaker]

here is:

setup:botd,storm,duress,arreats,verdungoes,highlor ds,2*raven:

+ to combat skills:

Arreats:4
Highlords:1
Battle commands:1
Anni:1

Total: 7

Whirlwind level:27

+ to all skill(mastery)

Arreats:2
Highlords:1
Battle commands:1
Anni:1

Mastery level: 25

Whirlwind level 27: ar 130%
Axe Mastery level 25: ar 220%
Level 23 enchant: ar 218%
Arreats 20%

Total: 588%. Base ar pool required to hit 16k ar:

= 16000 * 100/688
= 2326(rounding up)

Dex ar:

= (Dex * 5) - 35 + ClassBonus

(192*5) – 35 + 20 (level 85 max block dex)
= 960-35+20
= 945

Leaving: 2326 -945(dex)-50(botd) = 1331 from charms & 2x ravens.
Avg raven;200 * 2 = 400

=1331-400 = 931 ar from charms.

Inventory slots excluding cube, anni & tome=33

Ar required per slot=931/33 = 28

Reference for small charms:

Fine: +10-20 To Attack Rating, +1-3 To Maximum Damage (avg 15 ar)
Steel: +25-36 To Attack Rating (avg 30)

likely inventory setup:

=30*30 (steels) = 900 + 15*3 (fines) = 45 => 945 (14 extra)

if we place fine ar value at 20 (for the mass produced versions):
=30*27 (steels)= 810 + 20*6 (fines) = 120 => 930 (1 less..np)

you can only carry 6 fines.

so I don’t quite see the point here of ditching the 2k base angelics ar & in effect reducing your cth(chance to hit) by more than 10%,in favour of net 24% double damage chance & then striving to try & hit 16k from inventory, only to sacrifice damage in the end again from fines....thats way beyond me..especialy since the difference in max total damage with +12 to max & +60 to max (fine/angelics) is a good ~400 max total damage....

Furthermore there are two issues which I'd like to address:

1.The dexterity ar above is based on my assumption that it is a caster killer build with max block which I doubt judging from the earlier posts,if it is not a max block build, then it further increases the strain on the base ar requirement from inventory.

2.OW is being recommended as a part of killing mechanism with duress & dracs, which conflicts with a gaping (by my standards) 10% lower cth which means a 10% lower chance of triggering it & triggering it again within the 8 second duration for steady & continous damage which is further stressed by the fact that you only net 68% chance with dracs,duress & gores.

Its no biggie,that a high ar/cth is an essential requirement for ow effectiveness..even fury barbs with 100% ow(66fury+25dracs+10gores) strive for a high ar with dual angelics.So..dual angelics is therefore a necessity in bvb regardless of the weapon-build, considering the defense standards of serious-bvb these days hovering around 30k..it simply wont deliver with a low ar build with highlords,this is an edgy & conflicting setup to say the least.

Those concerned..pease keep it cool & ez..I meant no offense.

Rik :strong:

[ToThePoint]

i dont think a caster build can take a specialist bvb either but the 16k is achievable fairly easily on a well off dueller. (or rather the advantage is with the bvber as anything is possible with riches and experience)
Based on the 1331 from charms+raven:
use better ravens 235+
861 remaining, use high ar sharps and fines. lets say 70+GC and 18+ smalls
in 39 spaces thats 10 grands and 9 sc = 862 = 1 extra ar
At higher lvl it becomes easier from dex bonus.
also as you mention 3/20/20 indirectly that would get quite close witha couple of nice sharp GCs.

But that said, the angelic set up here would offer closer to 27k ar rather than 24k. The basic maths is also flawed in that this would give a CTH of 57.4% vs 45.4% an absolute difference of 13% but thats irrelevant - its the relative difference that counts.
The angelic barb would be hitting 26% more not 13%. Also highlords doesn't give 35% more chance for double damage, again its relative and critical and gores DS wasn't taken into account.
That said it all depends on the setups on the day. BVB barbs can also use duress funnily enough.

edit : rik please stop saying "keep cool and 'ez'" its patronising and more likely to annoy than pacify.

[rikstaker]

i dont think a caster build can take a specialist bvb either but the 16k is achievable fairly easily on a well off dueller. (or rather the advantage is with the bvber as anything is possible with riches and experience)
Based on the 1331 from charms+raven:
use better ravens 235+
861 remaining, use high ar sharps and fines. lets say 70+GC and 18+ smalls
in 39 spaces thats 10 grands and 9 sc = 862 = 1 extra ar
At higher lvl it becomes easier from dex bonus.
also as you mention 3/20/20 indirectly that would get quite close witha couple of nice sharp GCs.

But that said, the angelic set up here would offer closer to 27k ar rather than 24k. The basic maths is also flawed in that this would give a CTH of 57.4% vs 45.4% an absolute difference of 13% but thats irrelevant - its the relative difference that counts.
The angelic barb would be hitting 26% more not 13%. Also highlords doesn't give 35% more chance for double damage, again its relative and critical and gores DS wasn't taken into account.
That said it all depends on the setups on the day. BVB barbs can also use duress funnily enough.

edit : rik please stop saying "keep cool and 'ez'" its patronising and more likely to annoy than pacify.

:scared:

Aw.. ok ,was just trying to evade another flame war, especially since the last one just ended..but anyway...you made some fair & good points... :clap:
btw highlords gives ~25% more double damage chance than a 22/15 cs/ds(gores)setup.

wait a sec..whats going on here...I agree with mcm & back his argument with figures,TTP comes in & backs my figures & arguments with his own.. :cheesy:

gui: z sky is falling...

Rik :strong:

[dumbpig]

yea my barb has max block

unlike yours mcm hawhaw

lol

well max block is convenient cause u only lose like 1200ish life, which doesnt hinder my caster killing in the least, and it lets you block when you feel like it an do bvb and all that supar fun stuff

in any case i've beaten bns 3:2 and loads of similar barbs with full eth buggt gear max defense and the whole works... so if you think your barb model can win, your welcome to try.

most bvb barbs use warcry prebuff... i dont, and i still win, so i'm supposing that if i did actually get a prebuff or used my warcry barb to prebuff, it would be the best model

the point is that i think the bvcaster model with max block is a better bvb barb than the traditional 25k ar 40 k defense bvb barbs

[rikstaker]

@TTP:

yeh right..sharps can get you there,my motive wasnt to prove it wrong,I was just exploring the likely setup,as you mention higher level makes it easier somewhat with higher dex for block but then again its not clear that the build is max block.

Thanx for pointing out cth variances in the original posters figures,I didnt give that a closer look,instead for some wierd reason I unknowingly reduced it from 12%-10% difference :cheesy:

yeh you are damn right about the fact that even bvbers can use duress,infact all builds except ow weapon builds like fury/kingslayer are better off with duress.

edit; dumbpig posted while I was typing,so it is maxblock
what???...still..bvc>bvb in bvb :cheesy:

Rik :strong:

[Oversized_D2player]

My wolfbarb, QareGG, currently uses an up'd toothrow (215) And is tweaked around 2 ravens/metalgrid. So far, on ladder, I have not faced a barb OR paladin that can beat me. Take that Oversized_D2player. Ravens and metalgrid. And I've faced so many exile/dcleaver/botd/cta/younameit paladins and so many botd/dcleaver/younameit barbarians... that I feel I know what I am talking about!

Come to non-ladder. You will be taught a lesson.


Well blobs.. now that you have quit maybe you could post you your setup and model with us so we can marvel at it (and steal all the ideas mercilessly).

[mcm]

yea my barb has max block

unlike yours mcm hawhaw


Yeahh.. but I have such a strong hatred towards any non-Barbarian that I'm willing to not duel well against barbs so that I can run around with 8k life BWAHAHAHAAAA DIE NECRO SCUUUMMMRR

[luis19]

But then thats eazy prey for any half decent zon. Dunno about west, but on eastNL, theres bout 1 bowazon per game at least.

[mcm]

Hrm I just chucked an SS on and I have 45% block with a whole bunch of dex items (ravens, arreats.. oh wait, thats all the dex items..) Maybe I should try this versus a barb some time..

I would have had to spend another 77 dex to get max block, which is worth about 850 life. Personally, I don't think I'd trade that just to duel barbs even if I had to do it again.

[mcm]

But then thats eazy prey for any half decent zon. Dunno about west, but on eastNL, theres bout 1 bowazon per game at least.

Uhh.. no?

Teleport closes down the distance on zons so fast its sad. Zon without distance = dead zon. 50PDR and 8k life lets me soak up a LOT of arrows. If guided still pierced multiple times, you'd have a point though. But it doesn't.

[dumbpig]

most of the caster duels i win, i win by a couple thousand health at least, and most of them i lose, i woulda lost even if i had a couple thousand more to work with

75 block on that build lets u brag at all the bvb barbs that get beaten by a bvcaster build

gogo remake mcm lol

[mcm]

most of the caster duels i win, i win by a couple thousand health at least, and most of them i lose, i woulda lost even if i had a couple thousand more to work with

75 block on that build lets u brag at all the bvb barbs that get beaten by a bvcaster build

gogo remake mcm lol

Nooo f-that, I'm pretty sure even with 75 block a "decent" bvber would lay the smack down on me.. I've never been a big fan of BVB, it's like playing a table top strategy game. OK GUYS IVE PAINTED ALL MY LITTLE MEN, ACCORDING TO MY CALCULATIONS THEY HAVE A 51.21238% CHANCE OF BEAT YOU <DICE ROLL> OH CRAP I LOST <DICE ROLL> OHH I WON <DICE ROLL> OH CRAP I LOST **** THIS DICE IS LAGGY.
Besides us barbs should concentrate more on beating down the heathens rather than in-fighting.

[luis19]

How bout a zon with 2k+ life 5k+ ga physical damage at 8 frames.
If you miss 1 ww which is very high if the zon can switch to an ss right before you ww, your barb is probably dead.

Also, dumbpig, can you explain how you beat a bvb barb decked out in glitch gear or even high defense gear with superior damage? I've tried all that stuff you posted previously, works great vs decent-good bvb barbs and bvc barbs, but a glitched barb?

[mcm]

That "5k+" GA damage is more accurately presented as an average, since the minimum damage on the bow required to get over 5k max (windforce) is PITIFUL.
So lets say 3k average damage (overestimate) and does a critical strike 70% of the time (overestimate.) That's an average of 867 PVP damage *0.5 = 433 damage after DR. This is over 18 arrows, or ~6 SECONDS (count it out.. thats a long time) of arrows being fired and landing. Like I said, a bowazon w/o distance is a dead bowazon.
One thing bowazons have going for them is this weird desync that a running zon seems to have. I thought it was just an artifact of me being on dialup at first, but lots of people I know on cable have said the same thing so hrmphh.

[Alexsc25]

Come to non-ladder. You will be taught a lesson.


Someone sponsor me and I will remake him nl. Easy stuff... All I need is an up'ed toothrow (Duress will do) 4x shael gris caddy 235+, nice wolfhowl, up'd gores, SS, metalgrid, 220+/20 ravens, 15/39-40 belt, 15 str dracs, 3x wc charm echoing 2 skill valor mang songs 2x soj arach 3 wc amy / maras anni and an array of charms similar to 2-3 1x 1x's and their large/grand equalents, some 5fhr charms and a couple of shaels. That's aproximatly what I use.
I'll self rush self level.Then I will GLADLY duel all of you, and prove the worth of a wolfbarb!
The only differance nl I can see is bugged items/common dupes, which are unfair. I've faced almost every possible barb and zealot build so far, so I feel that you telling me that I will be taught a lesson like a spoiled child would be for talking about things he does not know is silly.
Also, I've been to palapk(observing) many times and the babas I see there are level 85-88... I take leveling at least to 90. Judging from their duels they use same gear as the ladder counterparts, exept possibly some bugs/dupes I do not know about nor wish to use/fight against. So stop being mean and rude to me by treating me like an idiot.