Why is SW so good?

[FrozenSolid]

Why is SW so good for trapsins?
Ive been off that route for a while now so dont know much :rolleyes:

[Bonescorpion]

Personally I am a huge advocate of the sw, here is a nice post I made about the sw and the one pt wonder (ie ds, mb, cos)

http://forums.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=252547

I have never tried warrior with a trapper but it seems better suited for a ma then a trapper.

[Nomad_k9]

Basicly because she'll do the samething you do and not stun while your laying traps, or the other way around.

[gods_pawn]

I don't like them, they place your traps where they want to, not where I want to.

[BabehJesus]

Lay some traps, then put MB as your right-click. If nothing else, that's the reason to use it.

(It'll let your shadow MB as if it had AA.)

Or, if you don't like that, it's a minion, which will move guided attacks away from you, such as bone spirit, guided arrow, and anything done by a stupid scroller.

[Yachi]

I fint it most helpfull in pvp vs sorces etc, that he use p.hammer and mind blast on sorc.
Many times have my sw locked down sorces.

[Shadow752]

I really dislike the the SW....Maybe I just have terrible luck or something with them but everytime I try using one in a duel she just stands there and dies or gets killed in one hit ~_~ Now with the SM, it's different. With SM I can usually get a few kills lol.

[FrozenSolid]

So I see. Ill have to agree with you on that one Shadow 752. I ws bored one day and joined a public duell game with my assa who had a lvl 28 SM.
I DFlighted up to a sorc and she took about more than half of her life with a CoT
chargeup ^ ^
Waiting for a SW to cast the wanted skill is a pain. Btw, how do you calculate the lvl of their skills?

[Incompetent]

Personally I am a huge advocate of the sw, here is a nice post I made about the sw and the one pt wonder (ie ds, mb, cos)

http://forums.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=252547

I have never tried warrior with a trapper but it seems better suited for a ma then a trapper.

I agree with gods_pawn on traps - the only time they're handy there is in PvM, if you're desperate to use a trap you can't afford to invest in. If you're a charge-up MAist, the SW's effectiveness is rather limited by its inability to stack the charge-ups properly, in my experience. Also, Shadows get no boot dmg AFAIK, so DTalon or TS/DTail isn't going to do much. They might give useful supporting fire with Bfury, though, if you get them to cast Venom first.

Shadows are generally at their most useful with skills you haven't got many points in (like ds, mb, cos as you say), but in that case you'll have to give up a skill button to make the SW do something different to you, which I find a bit fiddly. It's this whole babysitting aspect of SWs that puts me off.

@ FrozenSolid: skills are explained in the FAQ but basically it's 1/2 your level in the skill on use + 1/3 shadow level on summoning, with the possibility of synergies (incl. +skills) if they have actually used those skills. So a SM will get stronger over time as it picks up synergies, and a SW can be 'trained'.

[FrozenSolid]

But if my SW and the one point wonder skills are the same lvl, wouldnt the slvl on my SW be lower than mine?

[gods_pawn]

The only viable use (IMO) of a Shadow Warrior on a trapper is this technique:

1. Lay Traps
2. Cast SW
3. Set MB on one mouse click, set another skill that Shadow Warrior can't/won't use on other click
4. Spam MB with your SW like nobody's business


I think MBing is lame for duels, auto knockback/stun just isn't fair, and only do it as a last resort. So I prefer Shadow Master for her damage and increased life. She can be a real nuisance for your opponents at higher levels.

[Bonescorpion]

Frozen ur sw will have 1/3 her slvl for her skills as well, so if u have lvl 1 ds, and ur sw is lvl 21 she will be using lvl 7 ds.

As far as babysitting, it really isnt hard to get ur sw to do what u want, it does take dextertitous fingers with hotkeys, but i find the reward is justification for the extra work. But in the end I think that for pvm ma sw is better, but for trappers and pvp it doesnt get the job done.

[gods_pawn]

Am I correct in thinking that with you and your shadow combined, no more than 5 traps can be out? Or is it you can lay up to 5, and your shadow can lay an additional 5?

[FrozenSolid]

There can only be 5 traps activa total. If your SW lays one then one of yours will be destroyed.

If your SW and DS voth are lvl 21, then she would cast a lvl 17 DS right? And thats lower than yours. I guess SW is only good for using skills youve only spent one point into right?

[RTB]

Am I correct in thinking that with you and your shadow combined, no more than 5 traps can be out? Or is it you can lay up to 5, and your shadow can lay an additional 5?
The total is 5. And the Shadows can cause your traps to disappear, by laying a (weaker) one themselves.

[skygoneblue]

Are you sure of that? I swore that I had more than 5 traps out last night when my SM laid one.

[BIGeyedBUG]

I agree with gods_pawn on traps - the only time they're handy there is in PvM, if you're desperate to use a trap you can't afford to invest in.

I assume you mean a case like DS, where you might only have 1 pt invested, and the SW can cast it at a higher level than you. Otherwise, if you can't afford to invest in the trap, the SW won't be using it either.

If you're a charge-up MAist, the SW's effectiveness is rather limited by its inability to stack the charge-ups properly, in my experience.

It's not a huge problem, even with Phoenix. And if you use FoF, CoT, or BoI it's hardly a problem at all. I've used SWs with several BoI and CoT Assassins, and they've been terrific. The main use of any Shadow though, is as a tank.

They might give useful supporting fire with Bfury, though,

Neither of the Shadows uses BF. The SW can use BSentinal though.

Shadows are generally at their most useful with skills you haven't got many points in (like ds, mb, cos as you say), but in that case you'll have to give up a skill button to make the SW do something different to you, which I find a bit fiddly. It's this whole babysitting aspect of SWs that puts me off.

The cool thing about using them with a elemental MA 'sin, is that you don't really need to do much babysitting. Just use your normal skills, and the SW will be pretty effective. It is nice to get her to use Fade and Venom, but it's not absolutely necessary to have a decent tank. If you feel like taking the time to get her to cast CoS, DS etc. you can, and if you just want to get to on with it, you can do that too, and still have a reliable meat shield.

In some ways the SM takes more babysitting. It disappears constantly. It will run off in the middle of a fight to lay traps when you'd rather it kept tanking. It uses MB when you'd really like it not to. The two big advantages that the SM has in PvM are: the ability to use DS without you selecting or even spending a point on it; and the ability to actually kill things sometimes in Hell regardless of your own build.

[gods_pawn]

Thanks FrozenSolid and RTD - that settles it for me.

Shadow Warriors are teh uber crap! :lol:

[Bonescorpion]

Thanks FrozenSolid and RTD - that settles it for me.

Shadow Warriors are teh uber crap! :lol:


Sorry but for my money in pvm for a MA it will go to sw, higher resists at higher lvls, complete controllability, and better ds, cos, and mb then me? What more could u ask. If u are lazy sm is easier, but for the Assassin master being able to control ur shadow is what it is all about, extra work pans out with extra results.

As for a kicker I am sure it can be used very effectively with a kicker, I will eventually get around to making one and prove it right :)

[BIGeyedBUG]

Sorry but for my money in pvm for a MA it will go to sw, higher resists at higher lvls, complete controllability, and better ds, cos, and mb then me? What more could u ask. If u are lazy sm is easier, but for the Assassin master being able to control ur shadow is what it is all about, extra work pans out with extra results.

As for a kicker I am sure it can be used very effectively with a kicker, I will eventually get around to making one and prove it right :)

I think he was referring to trappers. If so, I'd agree with him.

[gods_pawn]

I think he was referring to trappers. If so, I'd agree with him.
Indeed I am, as the original question was:
Why is SW so good for trapsins?
Ive been off that route for a while now so dont know much

[Vakarrona]

They have more defense than SM and they cast whatever skill you want. I'm building a martial artist wich uses SW and she is fo a great help. I have dragon tail assigned to right click button, so she will eventually sometimes kick packs of monsters saving my @ss while charging up. She is of a great use while entering unknown tp's. Just make one SW, and assing MB in right hand and PH on left. The same time you enter tp/wp, if it is infested she will convert/knock some beasts. Very good. As for life, I think she has the same life SM has, only difference is SW has built in extra defense while SM has extra resistances. SW is a more durable tank (physical dmg) while comparing her with SM (maybe better for elemental resist).
I'm happy with her :thumbsup:

[RTB]

Vakarrona: More defense from the skill yes, but the SM gains alot of defense from items.

SW stats:
40% physical res in all difficulties
Damageregen 3
Base stuff:
life 376
def 196
AR (normal): 163
AR (NM): 243
AR (Hell): 323
Per Slvl:
+40% AR
+12% defense (also multiplies def from equipment)
+10 str/dex
+4% fire/cold/lit/poison res, up to a maximum of 75
+15% life
Ilvl = 2*Slvl +16 (for all items she has equipped)

SM stats:
40% physical res in all difficulties
DamageRegen 2
base stuff:
life 376
def 196
AR (normal): 163
AR (NM): 243
AR (Hell): 323
Per Slvl:
+40% ar
+10 str/dex
+15% life
fire/cold/lit/poison res: 0.75[(110*lvl) / (lvl+6)] + 5 (integer math as always)
Ilvl = 3*Slvl + 21

The SM uses Blade Sentinel more often than other skills and Phoenix Strike less often.

Pointless fact of the day: Shadows can open doors.

[BIGeyedBUG]

+4% fire/cold/lit/poison res, up to a maximum of 75


Are the resist caps before Fade or before equip resists, or both? Also, Shadows don't get the difficulty penalty, correct?

Any idea if the Shadows have the 50% cap on PDR%?

The SM uses Blade Sentinel more often than other skills and Phoenix Strike less often.

That sounds like personal experience rather than mpq data. Or is there something in the mpqs that indicates frequency of skill useage? (I thought the opposite by the way. It's been a long time since I've used a SM, but I wasn't 100% sure they could even use B.Sentinal. Lousy memory.)

[jrichard]

Are the resist caps before Fade or before equip resists, or both? Also, Shadows don't get the difficulty penalty, correct?

Any idea if the Shadows have the 50% cap on PDR%?


The resist caps are on the amount they get per level. Fade and equipment can take them above that.

I can't remember for sure, but iirc they aren't subject to the 50% cap on PDR either. I think Fade can carry them over it.

jrichard

[Bonescorpion]

Lol I missed that it said for trappers, my apologies. I cant believe I ignored that little tidbit of info in the opening post. I get a big DUH.

[Naliworld]

The resist caps are on the amount they get per level. Fade and equipment can take them above that.

I can't remember for sure, but iirc they aren't subject to the 50% cap on PDR either. I think Fade can carry them over it.

jrichard

Hm...interesting to know...is the absolute elemental resistance cap 95%/75% or is it possibly to have an SM that's completely immune to elemental damage?

[jrichard]

IIRC nali, they can get over 100%

jrichard

[RTB]

Are the resist caps before Fade or before equip resists, or both? Also, Shadows don't get the difficulty penalty, correct?

Any idea if the Shadows have the 50% cap on PDR%?
They're minions, so they can be made immune to elemental+poison. They shouldn't have that 50% PDR% cap either.

That sounds like personal experience rather than mpq data. Or is there something in the mpqs that indicates frequency of skill useage? (I thought the opposite by the way. It's been a long time since I've used a SM, but I wasn't 100% sure they could even use B.Sentinal. Lousy memory.)
Nope, it's MPQ data. The column is called AIBonus, and I remembered that it's used by the Shadow Master. It's mostly empty, but Blade Sentinel has a 3 there, and Phoenix Strike -3.

I don't play assassins much. I had a MA assassin in 1.09, she killed too slowly IMO, and I couldn't bring myself to lvling my kicker up to the point where she could use upped Gores.

[gods_pawn]

I'm curious, RTB - what is your all-time favorite character/build?

My new favorite is my Lightning Trapsin who is currently maxing Fire Blast for fire damage, and has an enigma for the ease of teleporting - doing solo hell baal has never been so easy or quick - about 6 mins alone. If I can find a way to static field baal, they will go much faster.

Sorry, this is very OT, but I think the original question has been satisfied.

[RTB]

I'm curious, RTB - what is your all-time favorite character/build?
Favorite build would be a Hybrid zon. LF rules both monsters and my computer.
The sorc is my favorite character, because of the all offense/no defense and teleport of course. I don't have Enigma, and never will.

My new favorite is my Lightning Trapsin who is currently maxing Fire Blast for fire damage, and has an enigma for the ease of teleporting - doing solo hell baal has never been so easy or quick - about 6 mins alone. If I can find a way to static field baal, they will go much faster.
1 pt in Blade Fury and Crescent Moon/Schaeffers/Stormlash on switch/in cube?

[ilkori]

Neither of the Shadows uses BF. The SW can use BSentinal though.I could swear I've seen my Masters cast a fure blade furies from time to time. She doesn't tend to use the skill wisely or often (since I never put more than one point), but has used it on occasion. My hunch is she only does the minimum 3-blade attack at a time due to the AI.


Quote:
My new favorite is my Lightning Trapsin who is currently maxing Fire Blast for fire damage, and has an enigma for the ease of teleporting - doing solo hell baal has never been so easy or quick - about 6 mins alone. If I can find a way to static field baal, they will go much faster.

1 pt in Blade Fury and Crescent Moon/Schaeffers/Stormlash on switch/in cube?If you grab an item with Crushing Blow somewhere that'd help too. Just a thought.

[BIGeyedBUG]

I could swear I've seen my Masters cast a fure blade furies from time to time. She doesn't tend to use the skill wisely or often (since I never put more than one point), but has used it on occasion. My hunch is she only does the minimum 3-blade attack at a time due to the AI.

I'd guess maybe you're thinking of 1.09, because that's exactly what she did in that patch. Otherwise I'm puzzled. :scratch:

[RTB]

If you grab an item with Crushing Blow somewhere that'd help too. Just a thought.
The problem will still be hitting Baal. Crescent moon wouldn't help much either, so the only viable option I see is a 5 sock Rune Master, with 2 Ber and 3 Eths. And you still won't be hitting much.

[ilkori]

I'd guess maybe you're thinking of 1.09, because that's exactly what she did in that patch. Otherwise I'm puzzled. No, no... it was online, and I didn't start online until 1.10. It doesn't seem to happen often, but I could swear I've seen it happen. I'd rather not be quoted on it because it happens so rarely that it *could* be a memory glitch... but I'll have to do some more playing with it.

The problem will still be hitting Baal. Crescent moon wouldn't help much either, so the only viable option I see is a 5 sock Rune Master, with 2 Ber and 3 Eths. And you still won't be hitting much.Strength Claw. I always have a bunch of +all skill items to beef my Shadow Disciplines, and Claw Mastery goes right along with that. I'll either use Strength Claws or Up'd Bartucs to help out a bit. There are always other equipmenst slots to add CB also; such as Gores/gloves/Guilame's.

[FrozenSolid]

After all thats been said, I think Ill stick with SM anyway (mainly because I already invested points into her :rolleyes: ).
I dont really care about the slightly higher skills, besides my SM can land very nice hits on the enemies ;) (i play ps/dc artsin)

[Bonescorpion]

Wow and I thought this thread was dead and buried. Hey its ur sin, sometimes simplicity is better. Sw is a lot of work, I like the rewards but pay with push button tendanitis (Old Jetsons Joke) in my fingers from hitting tons of hotkeys.