View Full Version : Weapon Block: Fight it out here.
I see that many of you are duking it out over Weapon Block, usable only by dual claw sins. :idea: I, in my infinite wisdom, decided to try to get everyone to argue in one post. Whether it works or not, I hope that this gets resolved, as there are quite a few who want to know conclusively. :scratch:
I, for one, believe that Weapon Block blocks just fine while running. I have no proof, no tests, and no idea how and where to get them. I was hoping one of the "Sin Guru's" could help us out there...
Shrug - the only "proof" I've had is when I'm running along trying to get through a bunch of mobs to get to point B, I do hear a lot of "clank" and seem to take no damage on those hits, be they ranged or melee. Sort of impossible to tell if it's any more or less common whilst moving then when standing still though. From what I've seen at least on some level yes it works while moving. Sometimes there's a brief block animation, sometimes just the sound. Shrug.
DukePukoze
18-09-2004, 19:23
maybe claw block percentage is just divided by 3, like shield block?
i might be imagining things, but i've been hit by frost nova (cold enchants) while running and haven't been frozen. I think weapon block works
Sure would be nice if someone just tested this with at least 2 witnesses. I wish I could test it myself but been rarely on.
knuckle_sammich
20-09-2004, 12:59
I was just dueling this morning and got a couple "clanks", no damage, while running after a FOHr. He died shortly after. Just my 2 cents. :drink:
skygoneblue
20-09-2004, 13:56
While I did Baal runs last night, Dark Lord's fireball bounced right off of me while I was running away. See, my Assassin is so damn slick, she can block stuff behind her back! ;)
FX-Amanda
20-09-2004, 16:23
Well im not gonna argue weapon block on dual claws works always ...only thing it dont work against while running is arrows.
brianc84
20-09-2004, 17:05
the only "proof" I've had is when I'm running along trying to get through a bunch of mobs to get to point B, I do hear a lot of "clank" and seem to take no damage on those hits,
The presence of a mob in your movement path as well as short distances to move combined with network latency can introduce points where your character is not considered to be moving even though client side, you appear to be moving.
While I did Baal runs last night, Dark Lord's fireball bounced right off of me while I was running away. See, my Assassin is so damn slick, she can block stuff behind her back!
There are server missiles and client missiles. Server missiles are used with server data and client missiles are used with client data. Client missiles are the ones you see but server missiles are the ones that really matter as far as game processes go. In this patch, the server and client data apparently does not get synchronized very well and you will often see false collisions client side.
Please note that I've had apparent instances of weapon block complete with clank / no damage with moving on single player D2X.. real single player, as in not connected to any server in any way - merely playing by myself on my PC. Same thing happens all the time. Latency not even a possible issue here. Also seen on B-net of course, but with it happening both places I think we can dismiss lag etc.
brianc84
21-09-2004, 08:25
Please note that I've had apparent instances of weapon block complete with clank / no damage with moving on single player D2X.. real single player, as in not connected to any server in any way - merely playing by myself on my PC. Same thing happens all the time. Latency not even a possible issue here. Also seen on B-net of course, but with it happening both places I think we can dismiss lag etc.
You still have not addressed the involvement of obstructions in the movement path. Also, there is still such a client-server distinction in single player. Latency does not become a big issue but synchronization still is. Also, we still can't dismiss the fact that most of the observations and 'tests' folks chime in with are being done in situations where errors are prone, giving questionable results.
You still have not addressed the involvement of obstructions in the movement path. Also, there is still such a client-server distinction in single player. Latency does not become a big issue but synchronization still is. Also, we still can't dismiss the fact that most of the observations and 'tests' folks chime in with are being done in situations where errors are prone, giving questionable results.
Just to be fair, I must point out that I see no data coming from your end, just the ripping down of other people's opinions. If you truly want to impress us with your intellect(it seems as if that is what you are trying to do), please come up with: test methodology, hypothesis (though I can see what side of the fence you are on), and data from running your tests. Seeing as how you will not trust anyone's "questionable results", please have some witnesses from here on the forum "assist" you in running these tests. Maybe having an IP game would be the best way to accomplish this. I really was hoping someone like you would go code-spelunking to find the answer, maybe you could do that as well.
brianc84
21-09-2004, 20:29
Just to be fair, I must point out that I see no data coming from your end
I don't repeat the data since that's been repeated many times and has repeatedly been neglected in favor of results from more questionable and favorable observations. I don't expect to persuade anyone (here) to be persuaded by it.
test methodology
A fairly informal write up:
The basic idea of the test on how the test should be run is pretty obvious. Have an attacker try to hit a target with weapon block. Like all other tests you should cut out as many possible sources of error as possible to make sure all the preconditions of what's being tested are met. That is, you have to ensure that the target is getting 'hit' and ensure that the target is moving when it is being hit.
The target should move in a manner where it'd be easiest for a collision to occur. Typically, this would be in a straight line toward the attacker. No 'guiding' the target along the line or running back and forth. Once click in the distance and let it move by itself. Also, nothing should ever get in the target's movement path at any time.
I conducted an hour of trials this way with various types of projectiles and not once did I get a successful block, even after trying it in a modded game with 100% weapon block.
The problem with this kind of experiment is that the hypothesis, which in this case is a universal, can be proven or disproven, depending on which way the hypothesis is being written, with a single case and so you'd have to be extremely careful in proving/disproving it correctly.
I really was hoping someone like you would go code-spelunking to find the answer, maybe you could do that as well.
Ruvanal has already done this. His finding was that weapon block is never checked when moving. However, many folks here reject that in favor of their own results, many of which are questionable in how they are obtained like I've mentioned so often.
BIGeyedBUG
21-09-2004, 21:12
Just to be fair, I must point out that I see no data coming from your end, just the ripping down of other people's opinions. If you truly want to impress us with your intellect(it seems as if that is what you are trying to do), please come up with: test methodology, hypothesis (though I can see what side of the fence you are on), and data from running your tests. Seeing as how you will not trust anyone's "questionable results", please have some witnesses from here on the forum "assist" you in running these tests. Maybe having an IP game would be the best way to accomplish this. I really was hoping someone like you would go code-spelunking to find the answer, maybe you could do that as well.
Just to be fair, you're don't seem to be applying the same criteria to anyone else, including yourself.
I, for one, believe that Weapon Block blocks just fine while running. I have no proof, no tests, and no idea how and where to get them. I was hoping one of the "Sin Guru's" could help us out there...
Very scientific. And you ask for help from the "gurus", but insult the expertise of the first one to respond to this thread. I assume you've read data and opinions from Ruvanal, adeyke, and RTB? (http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=187904)--how much more expert input do you need? Or are you just waiting for one to agree with you? Good luck.
If you want anecdotal evidence see my last post on the matter. (http://www.rpgforums.net/showpost.php?p=2562801&postcount=15)
Please note that I've had apparent instances of weapon block complete with clank / no damage with moving on single player D2X.. real single player, as in not connected to any server in any way - merely playing by myself on my PC. Same thing happens all the time. Latency not even a possible issue here. Also seen on B-net of course, but with it happening both places I think we can dismiss lag etc.
Like brianc84 said, desynchronization (not lag) is an issue even in SP. I see it all the time, although much less commonly than on Realms. It was one of the bigger technical complaints about 1.1 until people got used to it.
jrichard
21-09-2004, 23:09
The problem with this thread as a whole is the assumption that this is an issue still being debated. It was already heavily debated. The tests run by adeyke and others were repeated by many of us and the results were the same. Add in the info from Ruvanal and this issue is done from my, and most others who've been here awhile, point of view. Brian didn't list the tests as they have been listed over and over on these and other boards.
jrichard
Funny why people even responded to the thread. The search button is there for a reason. I consider Ruvanal et. al. "sin gurus" as the poster said. If their findings aren't good enough, then the subject will never be settled.
Hmm - somehow one of my replies got deleted.. repost more or less. 2 fairly informal tests I did the other night:
Out in the Black Marsh collected some skele archers and ran around them purposefully diving into arrows without ever stopping moving. Clank clank.
In the fake Tal Rasha's tomb had a merc bothering Ancient Ka with a shortsword.. charged bolt fiesta. Clank clank. Once again was running around and around his room which was fairly big.
In neither case am I counting clanks that occured directly after a successful hit, as that would stop one from moving for a sec. Soley blocks that occured while hoofing it about.
Observed behavior by me, in as lag-free of a situation as is ever liable to be achieved, does not correlate with previous test results posted. Shrug.
P.S. However, (not that I counted specifically but..) it did appear that the blocks weren't going down at the 50% rate they should have.. more like maybe 1/5th of the time.
A.
brianc84
27-09-2004, 17:54
Running around implies that you are guiding the character around and doing so does not help ensure that you are actually moving at the time of impact since you are able to invoke a situation where you are not moving (and so allowing weapon block to work) without being aware that you're not moving since the time frame it too short to really notice. That's the problem with many of these 'informal' tests, too many external factors are being allowed to interfere with what's being tested and steps to ensure that there is at little interference as possible don't seem to have been taken.
Brian, I just wanted to appologize (This is the second time I've done it... forum rollback... :grrr: ) for my post. I am now fairly convinced that Weapon Block does not work while running, as I am equally convinced that if I am moving on the screen that I may or may not be ACTUALLY running. Thanks for your excellent input.
Laran
Kamakaze
28-09-2004, 01:22
uhhh just wondering...uhhh why do people use wb if it doesnt work while running/walking?....also it does work with ww doesnt it? The only reason i usually use block is when im closing the ground between me and other chars...ie:running. i was just wondering if the pros and cons even out enough to dump more than 1 pt into wep block.
BIGeyedBUG
28-09-2004, 01:36
Hmm - somehow one of my replies got deleted.. repost more or less. 2 fairly informal tests I did the other night:
Out in the Black Marsh collected some skele archers and ran around them purposefully diving into arrows without ever stopping moving. Clank clank.
In the fake Tal Rasha's tomb had a merc bothering Ancient Ka with a shortsword.. charged bolt fiesta. Clank clank. Once again was running around and around his room which was fairly big.
In neither case am I counting clanks that occured directly after a successful hit, as that would stop one from moving for a sec. Soley blocks that occured while hoofing it about.
Observed behavior by me, in as lag-free of a situation as is ever liable to be achieved, does not correlate with previous test results posted. Shrug.
P.S. However, (not that I counted specifically but..) it did appear that the blocks weren't going down at the 50% rate they should have.. more like maybe 1/5th of the time.
A.
sigh. You seemed credible enough that I looked at the situation again. In addition to my normal playing time (probably 4-5 hours with c/c Assassins), I've done just over 2 hours of dedicated WB observation in the last week in SP--in other words, running around in act 5 trying to intercept as many fireballs, arrows, quills, charged bolts, and other assorted miscellaneous projectiles as possible. Slvl 12 WB--53% blocking. Mobile WBs: 0.
Note again, that this is in addition to a lot of time spent playing c/c Assassins since the original debate in May. And also in addition to the dedicated observations I made at that time.
You do sound intelligent, and I see no reason to doubt that you believe what you're saying So my conclusion is either:
1. For some reason you're experiencing frequent desync in SP. I've had this happen to me before. The only common factor seeming to be that I left the game running in the background for a long time. I'm not sure if that was what caused it or not, but if that behavior applies to you as well, try restarting the game before you do your next test.
2. That you are--nothing personal--nutters. :drool: :flip: :bonk: :howdy:
In any case, you owe me two hours of my life back. I am willing to forget about it though if you bring me a note from your doctor.
PS. I'll continue to keep an eye out for mobile WBs. If I see anything unusual, or hear about something relevant I'll be sure to post about it.
BIGeyedBUG
28-09-2004, 01:44
uhhh just wondering...uhhh why do people use wb if it doesnt work while running/walking?....also it does work with ww doesnt it? The only reason i usually use block is when im closing the ground between me and other chars...ie:running. i was just wondering if the pros and cons even out enough to dump more than 1 pt into wep block.
It does work when WWing, standing still, or attacking. As far as advantages go, it's the only way to block elemental attacks, and it isn't dependent on DEX to be effective.
The lack of mobile WBs isn't that big of deal in PvM. It actually takes a fair bit of work to get hit by projectiles--nothing in the game is any good at leading a moving target. It is an obvious disadvantage when dealing with melee attacks, but if you're spending a lot of time running around within melee range of monsters, well, you deserve what you get.
Well it's VERY obvious that it works vs foh while running. Go run circles around an foh'er if you don't believe me.
(Edited for P.S.)
Hmm - omw to the store to buy 2 hours for ya..
Interestingly after reading YOUR post I decided to go try it again, this time in nightmare as that's where I'm playing currently. Did the skel archer test and.. no clank "/
Went back to normal and did it again. Clank.
:scratch:
There aren't supposed to be differences like that tween difficulty levels to my knowledge.. I am now officially vastly confused.
Either,
A: I am suffering from some truly bizarre single player lag.
B: There is some sort of block chance on normal that doesn't exist on the 2 higher difficulties.
C: There's some sort of very low block chance while moving, that decreases into near imperceptibility after normal.
D: My copy of D2X is messed up in a very weird way.
E: My PC is possessed by Eldritch the Rectifier.
/sigh :cheesy:
P.S. For the record not having it work while moving doesn't seem to have cramped my style much in nightmare.. just need to pay a little more attention when doubling back while running about to dodge stuff. NBD really. The weapon block skill has however proved quite invaluable for the Claw/claw furysin I'm viability testing with - as you spend so much time nailed to one spot spitting shurikens.
Well it's VERY obvious that it works vs foh while running. Go run circles around an foh'er if you don't believe me.
I wonder if it's because you are going in a circle rather than a straight line? Hmmm... interesting.
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