View Full Version : Do hydras count as minions?
I ask because I have a fire facet and am considering making a hydra or hydra/FO sorc.
Hydras are minions. But they do benefit from +% fire dmg and -% fire res.
Hydras are minions. But they do benefit from +% fire dmg and -% fire res.
They are also untargetable by enchant so that makes them even less minion like. They are in the minion class but they really don't follow the rules well.
melianor
10-09-2004, 12:16
They are also untargetable by enchant so that makes them even less minion like. They are in the minion class but they really don't follow the rules well.
They are living snake fire heads. What do you expect? The only one the hear to is the Sorceress herself, and dont follow any other rules ;)
They are also untargetable by enchant so that makes them even less minion like. They are in the minion class but they really don't follow the rules well.
Also Enimies dont attack them, I would think that would be a negative on making them minions
Br_
melianor
11-09-2004, 12:10
Hydras arent minions.
How about specifing this answer a little bit more? Thx.
To me this says nothing. I want reasons please.
they are also the most limited "minions" as far as life span and mobility are concerned.
i like to think of minions as buddies you bring along for the fight. hydra is an offensive skill that is "cast" not "raised." you "raise" skeletons, but you "cast" hydra.
that is: if we are getting into a semantics discussion.
EDIT: spelling
Soepgroente
11-09-2004, 14:36
You could also say you summon a hydra like you summon a grisly bear. Just call it semi-summon :)
Oh and I'd also not really call it an offensive skill but that's another story :)
well, looking at it from a skill standpoint, not a use standpoint, it is offensive. energy shield is defensive. frozen armor is defensive. but hydra does attack.
you could say you summon a hydra like you summon a grisly bear. and maybe we should. but i've always thought it as casting hydra and summoning minions. then again, its all a shade of grey anyways.
Myrakh-2
11-09-2004, 15:16
i like to think of minions as buddies you bring along for the fight.
The game considers assassin traps to be minions, which is why facets and other +damage/-resist gear doesn't work with them.
So the question whether hydras are minions or not is still a valid one, as they are very much like traps: they cast stuff, and they cannot be attacked. In fact, from the looks of it, Hydras COULD even use the same code that handles the traps.
melianor
11-09-2004, 15:20
The game considers assassin traps to be minions, which is why facets and other +damage/-resist gear doesn't work with them.
So the question whether hydras are minions or not is still a valid one, as they are very much like traps: they cast stuff, and they cannot be attacked. In fact, from the looks of it, Hydras COULD even use the same code that handles the traps.
BUT they benefit from +xx% damage and -xx% resistances....
let's have a look
11-09-2004, 17:30
if you consider your Hydra a minion then you should think the same of your meteors
So the question whether hydras are minions or not is still a valid one, as they are very much like traps: they cast stuff, and they cannot be attacked. In fact, from the looks of it, Hydras COULD even use the same code that handles the traps.
I can't prove to you people, that's the problem.
But I know that Hydras are minions. They just don't move around.
if you consider your Hydra a minion then you should think the same of your meteors
the problem with that arguement is that meteor doesn't have an AI of any type. it is all based on a timer. hydra does use an AI, like traps, like the undisputed minions.
My personal definition: If it shows up in the "party" portion of your screen, it's a minion. If it doesn't, it's a summon. Hydras, Ravens, traps -- all summons.
But again, that's just my personal definition.
Myrakh-2
12-09-2004, 00:55
Well, I guess the real question then is "what does the thread-starter really want to know"?
From the games point of view, a minion has certain properties that set them apart from spells, mostly the fact that they are more "detached" from the player than spells: while minion-kills do give experience and use mf/gf just like spell-kills, the +damage/-resist mods do not work on them: lightning-traps don't do more damage with lightning facets because they are minions, just like skeleton magi or mercenaries do not profit from facets (or other gear).
For now, this is the ONLY difference that I KNOW of between minions and spells, aside from certain usage things (like that you don't usually equip your spells with armor, weapon and helmet :-))
Other definitions of minions are possible, like a minion being a somewhat independent entity. This would fit classic minions (merc and summons) as well as traps and hydras: they all act on their own AI path, and they cast the spells (if they cast, that is): a meteor is cast by the sorc, it just happens to arrive a bit late. A hydra is cast by the sorc, but the fireballs are cast by the hydra, just like the assa casts the trap and the trap casts the lightning, or the necromancer raises the mage and the mage casts the elemental missle: there is a level of indirection.
However, not everything that looks the same is indeed the same --- a hydra looks pretty much like an assa-trap, but it's Blizzard's decision whether Hydras are minions or not. As far as I can tell, the way to find out would be to see if +damage/-resist items work with hydras by actually testing it (ignore the LCS; it lies for assassins, so it could just as well lie for sorcs as well).
Myrakh... +% fire dmg/ -% fire res works with Hydras. I thought I had said that already.
Mad Mantis
12-09-2004, 16:33
Myrakh... +% fire dmg/ -% fire res works with Hydras. I thought I had said that already.
It is understandable that he wants to know how you came to that conclusion.
melianor
12-09-2004, 20:05
It is understandable that he wants to know how you came to that conclusion.
Just try it out? I did that with my Hydra/Orb sorc in Act1 Hell. Once with Full Ta's with facets and once without. There is a significant change to see :thumbsup:
Mad Mantis
12-09-2004, 20:35
Just try it out?
If he tried it than that is fine by me. When people make claims about something that can have a lot of impact it is always nice to know that they actually tested it themselves.
There are ways to see the actual damage not the false readout that your char. screen gives. I know RTB knows how to look at that information and I am certain it works the same way. Traps and hydras fall under the same class in the program itself that class is a minion type. Traps however don't obey the +%-% firedamage rule all other minions do. Hydras and traps don't follow the enchant/curse/aura rule all of minions do. Hydras are a minion class though they don't appear the same as other minions.
brianc84
12-09-2004, 22:32
They are also untargetable by enchant so that makes them even less minion like. They are in the minion class but they really don't follow the rules well.
Also Enimies dont attack them, I would think that would be a negative on making them minions
Hydras and traps don't follow the enchant/curse/aura rule all of minions do.
There are no such rules. Being a minion does not imply targetability by Enchant and neither does targetability by Enchant imply being a minion. The same goes for interaction with monsters and aura effects. These properties are controlled through other means.
Traps however don't obey the +%-% firedamage rule all other minions do.
By default, your minions do not inherit any of the properties you have so by default, they will not get any fire/cold/lightning/poison mastery or anything else that you happen to have. There are skill mechanisms that give specific skills/stats to your minion as it gets spawned so they'd be able to know how much damage to do. From these mechanisms, your Hydras would get your fire mastery, fire resistance piercing, and Hydra level. Assassin trap sentries get most of your trap skills and their synergies (or else the synergies won't 'work') at the relevant levels but just don't get any lightning mastery or lightning resistance piercing since the skill doesn't do it and neither is it done by default.
I think the question that is to be answered here is whether the game code considers them minions or other...
brianc84
15-09-2004, 21:44
As RTB said, they are minions. However, for reasons mentioned in my other post, the answer to this question doesn't exactly answer the question it would subsequently be applied to.
Death_Frog
16-09-2004, 06:52
If they cant recieve an aura... they arent a minion IMO
I do think a good method of upgrading hydra is to make them more summon-like by increasing their time "alive", but also still limiting the number casted to 5, this can let a sorc cast them and still have time to use other skills to attack during the hydras onslaught.
This can be a good dueling device as well... have ur sorc stand in middle of 5 well placed hydras while u spam orb or something... it would be very good combo.
Like I said, it shouldn't be a matter of opinions. Is there or isn't there a way game-code defines minions ?!
brianc84
17-09-2004, 05:59
Categorically speaking, a minion is a non-projectile unit that has or is tied to a boss unit. Wether or not something has a boss does not determine wether some modifier will have an effect or not. A more relevant question to ask is wether or not the hydra/trap/etc is a seperate (and non-projectile) unit from the caster. Certainly, a unit should not share its properties (eg. stats and skills) with units that are not that unit itself, but they can gain/inherit (but not share) properties from the skill the caster used to create them.
Skill damage calculations are done centric to whatever is utilizing the skill damage calculation (eg. the hydras and sentries themselves) and not to who actually uses the skill. This means your fire mastery isn't being used, the hydra's fire mastery is being used. The amount of fire mastery a hydra has is based on how much you had at some point, and maybe very well be equal to yours but the two amounts are not one in the same.
Btw I don't know what I would alternately call them if not minions. Obviusly they r spells, and could also be called summons. Don't see what the practical differences r though.
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