Daggermancer weapon

[Beowulf]

I have been saving up some gear to make me a daggermancer, something I have not done since 1.09. I was going to use the new unique fanged knife but found these two rares...what you guys think either of the two worth using?

fiend bite
mithril point
109-158 at lvl 1 character 109-202 on lvl 90
196% ed
+1 max dam
fools mod
1-217 light damage
prevent monster heal


other one needs to be upgraded
carrion song
blade
16-60 as blade
20%ias
306%ed
+92 ar
+12 str
+11 mana
25 lvl 2 stun charges

any thoughts?

[Mad Mantis]

Go with the fiend bite.

[Beowulf]

Go with the fiend bite.
Cool

what is considered a decent ar these days for a daggermancer I have a feeling with the boots from the skill and then add the fools mod and maybe enchant from a demon limb and you have a decent ar.

[Mad Mantis]

I have a feeling with the boots from the skill and then add the fools mod and maybe enchant from a demon limb and you have a decent ar.

Just the skill and your Dex should give you good AR. If you add the Fools mod you can't go wrong.

A Daggermancer only needs his Angelic Ammy and Ring and the skill to be able to hit things nicely.

[JoJeck]

I shall be making my next daggermancer soon :) I've just found 3 bits of the Trangs set including the Wing so that will be a good start. Unfortunately I don't have a good dagger for the late game yet the best is this one...

Fanged Knife
19 -70 damage
+2 Necro Skills
24 %ED
+1 min damage
36 AR
repairs in 36 secs

It is nothing like as good as the two daggers you have :( but interesting nevertheless. +2 Necro skills will make this a good weapon to use mixing PD and PN in play. I think the damage a dagger does is not really important as daggers are best used either to deliver Poison for a killing blow and to prevent monster heal or perhaps for crushing blow and open wounds. Trying to kill poison immunes with physical damage and a dagger is dangerous and slow. Basically it is the AR that matters and your first dagger is very nice from that point of view.

Good luck and happy hunting with that dagger ;)

[k0d3]

Venom rune word seems to do good for a daggermancer... since it synergizes PDagger... just my 2 cents

K0D3
:rant:

[Summoned]

There's also Blackbog's Sharp, with +5 PDagger, slow, and about 400 poison damage on the dagger itself.

[JoJeck]

There's also Blackbog's Sharp, with +5 PDagger, slow, and about 400 poison damage on the dagger itself.
True, Blackbog's (unique Cinquedeas) and Fleshripper (unique Fanged Knife) are generally thought to be the best daggers a Daggermancer can have.

[Fremen°]

wizardspike isnt really an attacking weapon, but gotta love those resistances and mana boosts...i dunno, what do you think? my friend has had probelms with mana in the past...

blackbogs sharp is still the best, though fleshripper deals out more non poison damage with crushing blow, open wounds, deadly strike, etc;)

[Mad Mantis]

Venom rune word seems to do good for a daggermancer... since it synergizes PDagger... just my 2 cents

Getting the synergies to work means that you are crippling yourself. You can't place a point in PE and Nova, so that leaves you with just level 15 and level 13 instead of level 20 and level 20. And you can't start the fight with a Nova either.




wizardspike isnt really an attacking weapon, but gotta love those resistances and mana boosts...i dunno, what do you think? my friend has had probelms with mana in the past...

Though the Res are nice you are missing some physical damage. And that can become important versus some monsters and Act Bosses.

As for the mana problems, just raise Energy to 50.

[lextalionis]

VENOM runeword would allow you a lot more free skill points that could be used for Bone Armor synergizes or whatever other nasty ideas you can come up with. Skill points are very valuable.

[Mad Mantis]

VENOM runeword would allow you a lot more free skill points that could be used for Bone Armor synergizes or whatever other nasty ideas you can come up with. Skill points are very valuable.

It would depend on what you want to do with the skills points. If you want to make a Daggermancer who uses a grand army then you need the skill points.

For a pure Daggermancer the skill points aren’t a necessity, just a convenience. With some good strategies you can work around any weaknesses.

[towel]

I would like to to a daggermancer! Anyone have a link to a guide or any hints for a necronoob?

[Mad Mantis]

I would like to to a daggermancer! Anyone have a link to a guide or any hints for a necronoob?


Welcome Newcomer to The Darkness. Grab a brew :drink: and feel free to raise some corpses.


Meleemancer Guide - Preliminary version (http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=214163). It contains some info on Daggermancers and a lot of info on Meleemancers in general.

[Beowulf]

Welcome Newcomer to The Darkness. Grab a brew :drink: and feel free to raise some corpses.


Meleemancer Guide - Preliminary version (http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=214163). It contains some info on Daggermancers and a lot of info on Meleemancers in general.
Ya found the guide interesting. Personally I rarely follow guides but do use it as a reference.

[darnocpdx]

Though the meleemancer guide is a good one, the dagger mancer is a different breed with different mods needed on gear, different play styles, and significantly different ideas. For example a Dagger mancer has no need for a might merc, most the damage is posion, they'd be better with defiance, prayer, or freezing aura, and since they'd be useing LR alot the act 3 merc isn't a bad choice either (personally i like the prayer or defiance in hopes of getting the freeze aura from items once I colect the runes). My dagger mancers tend to be 1 part daggermancer and one part throwmancer/bowmancer (on the biggies). where I typically run in get the LR on the target run out weapon switch to throwing daggers or bow with heavy elemental damage and shoot from behind a bone wall, while keeping the golemn on the boss. When the posion run out rush in and repeat as necessary. For most regular beasts PD is nearly enough if you keep it leveled and properly syenergised. (At level 10 you will better increase PD frame damage by going with synergises instead of PD, however you don't get the duration bonus with synergies.)

Also with dagger mancers you don't want your merc too powerful or it will steal your kills and any +mana per kill gear (needed desperately pre-level 50) will be moot. It's not uncommon for me to outfit my mercs with norm socketed weapons with a chiped saph to slow down the target, but not kill it.

And of course you need to know how the posion scorces stack, the Toa is a good guild however I still haven't been able to duplicate any of his numbers in the formula's he gives. I find it easier and close enough to see if i'm hindering my damage with items with these fomula's:

Durration in frames per second (FPS):

listed duration*25 (the number of frames per second)=FPS

Damage per frame (DPF):

Listed damage/(FPS)

when stacking items the the damage per frame is added together. The durrations are averaged. So the durations would be.

(sum of item duration)/(number of items)= durration from items

Now PD stacks it's damage as another item but it's duration is added on the the durration of items. So total damage with PD would be:

((damge per frame includeing posion dagger)) * (durration from items+Posion dagger durration)

Note that if your best frame per second damage item has a long duration you can actually make it worse by stacking lower duration sorces of poison with it, however if it is of short durration you can actually prolong it with lower FPS damage items with a higher durration. Now PD will give you some room to breath, but really for the best results you want your damage to be as high and have a longer duration (at the higher levels at least 15-20 seconds in duration). After all one second loss of 5 poison damge FPS is a difference of 100 damage.

Also important are prevent monster heal, it can really put a damper on your posion damage if you don't have this mod somewhere.

Also some mods like mana per kill are important, and dont shy away from defender flee's % this can be used to great advantage and give you a nice buffer from getting swarmed. Also if used creativity can be used to aim beasts for spells like PE and CE (they alway run the opposite way from which they are attacked).

And as a daggermancer you wont have enough points for summons other than a golemn of your choice clay the best for the slow ability and it's abillity to taunt the enemy. And other than LR you need to pick just one curse (usually dim and get as close to maxing it as possible.) Decrept is nice but really you only need it for a second every now and then.

[k0d3]

so basicaly a skelliemancer with a venom dagger would be viable as a build? if so how would u come to it with lets say.... skellies, mages, maybe 1 point in revives and one in all courses... would the loss of the wand (if ur not going commando) cripple u badly? and unrelated Q? why does most HOTO's are made in flails and not in bigger better more damaging weapons?


K0D3
:rant:

[Myrakh-2]

and unrelated Q? why does most HOTO's are made in flails and not in bigger better more damaging weapons?

I've never made a hoto, but if you don't want to hit anything with it (because you are a caster), why put it into a "better" weapon? It will raise repair costs and (probably) requirements...

[Mad Mantis]

so basicaly a skelliemancer with a venom dagger would be viable as a build?

Skellies with you name it will be viable as a build.




if so how would u come to it with lets say.... skellies, mages, maybe 1 point in revives and one in all courses... would the loss of the wand (if ur not going commando) cripple u badly?

Basically the build would not be very different from the standard Skelliemancer. You spend the 43 points on Skellies and Summon Resist. Then max PDagger and use Venom. Get your curses and some BA. Put the rest of the points in whatever you like. DV, LR and Decrep are recommended.

[darnocpdx]

Personally I wouldn't go with skeles for a daggermancer unless you kept the numbers low. Ie a couple in raise, max mastery. Mages and revives are gunna just cost too much mana wise to keep up. Dagger can be a mana drain if you aren't careful.

Personally I like the golemn alot better. Mine tends to run alone alot with no merc and no golemn, I only bust out the golemn when needed you'll find that they actually get in the way alot. Remember most melee mancers (including PD ones don't stack the power pool, so revives hurt alot to cast, heck , just dim plus PD costs my current daggermancer at level 20, 15 mana for that first kill, his mana ball is usually near empty) Dim/confuse and defender flee items are all you really need with a daggermancer for most beasts. I'm lucky and currently useing a 202 over 8 seconds dagger so I don't have to use pd till the champs or better come up. Next level I can add a wormskull (anyone got one on west HC???) the 8 secs on it will work out quite nicely.

Also keep in mind with the skeles those 43 points mentioned above in mantis post coupled with 60 poison line for fully syergised line leaves ya only 7 more points to spend on anything else. That's barely LR, and not enough for AI curses to remain viable end game.

But good luck, persnally if you want an army with ya I'd go with nova or PE over dagger as my main attack. PE has enormus damage potential in a limited radius (nice complement to amp and ce in big games), and nova is just easy to disperse over the screen fairly cheaply.

Also as far as venom goes you could save a number skill points with it, but PE and nova are much better compliments to skeles than dagger, and you'll blow through those charges as well if you use them, good luck gettin Mal if you don't have one it appears in nearly every new worthwhile ruin word as well.

[Velocifero]

FFK - Fury Fanged Knife

[Summoned]

FFK - Fury Fanged Knife
Yeah, I'm sure I have 15 legit Jahs somewhere in my stash right now. :uhhuh:

Followup:
Why do people seem to focus so much on physical damage? A dagger can't deal that much physical damage on a necromancer no matter what you try.

[Mad Mantis]

A dagger can't deal that much physical damage on a necromancer no matter what you try.

Define that much. Sure you won't be able to reach 5k damage, but you can get enough to make for a very nice backup against PI's. As JoJeck pointed out to me, dagger damage is determined by both your Strength and Dexterity. So if you have max block and some strength you can boost the base damage a lot.

[Dazuni]

if you are lucky and rich then get the unique fanged knife, or fury, if you are poor like me, I like to stick with Malice, poison works well with open wound and -100 per hit benefit your skelly army / merc too, it do so well with bosses.

[Kyo]

Nothing beats the infamous Fleshripper. Although it still eludes me it still no1 in my book :D

SAM will know the day of reckoning once i get my Fleshripper !!

[Mad Mantis]

SAM will know the day of reckoning once i get my Fleshripper !!

SAM (http://hometown.aol.com/necrochild313/evilfrog.jpg)! Copy the link and save it on your hard drive.

[k0d3]

malice its actually pretty good starting RW for what its needed... im going for that till i can find the runes for Venom... think ill go for crafted blood boots too to make up for the -5 drain life of malice till i can fing angelic rings and that way i can raise my % chace of hitting a house form 2% to something actualy reasonable...

so dmg for a dagger is base on Str |AND| Dex? ugh... well that blows b/c i was going for max life... crap.. oh well its still early enought for me to change that... i hope..

well since im maxing skelies and mages and PD... obviously my main attack wont be PD but skellies and PD will be support.. could i get away with just say... 10 points and then Venom? or should i go for the full 20 and maybe eventually kill one of the synergies of Venom by adding points provided that i have more points to spend that the lvl of the charges in venom? just and idea..

K0D3
:rant:

[darnocpdx]

Don't worry about str. you need just enough for the gear of your choice 110 with gear boosts is more than enough.

As for dex go for max block, or max PD AR if you haven't got AR boosting items like angelics.

Dump the rest in stamina.

A dagger mancer is doing thousands hp of damage with the toxin on thier blade, what does another 100 or so hp (in the end game) matter in the way of physical damage?

Instead of maxing str for extra physical damage look for crushing blow or open wounds both of these abilities are better suited to the hit and run tactics of a daggermancer. Critical hit once again is kinda of awaste, your physical damage will be fairly low, likewise a pure dagger mancer has no need for Amp,Might, mana/life leech (except by per kill), Decrept (sometimes handy for slowing the faster moveing targets down for a hit), Lifetap (unless letting merc tank boss for ya). You simply don't do enough physical damage to make these worth while. If you're playing it the most effective way you're only hitting targets once, let the spell do all the work, not you.

The most effective spells/Mods for a dagger mancer are:

Terror/Howling (preferablly on an item when hit)
Dim Vision
Confusion
Lower resists
+ mana per kill (the only way to keep your mana up pre level 50 or so)
+ running speed
+ attack speed
+ Hit recovery
+ blocking
+ Attack rateing (perferablily a % one or a big set rate)
Posion items with a long duration. With Posion typically the longer the posion the greater the damage.

If you're looking for a fast killing machine make a differnet build this one is slow and methodical, but if played right extreamly damgerous and fun to play.


My current daggermancer is running with a defiance merc and loveing every minute of it (though I've gone too long without him at my side so mow I'm catching him up). Some day I hope to give him a Doom runeword, he's a good merc I feel kinda guilty about abanding him soo much. I don't do diddle for physical damage, however very little stands after I hit them once.

[darnocpdx]

If you plan on useing Venom for the synergies and not useing PD for you're main attack I'd Just put 15 points in PD and leave the explosion and Nova alone, Since you are gunna have 20 skeles, 20 mages, presumabley 20 in Mastery and a couple in summon resists and a golemn (I assume), not to mention cureses (your at 90 points minium with PD points now). Those few points you'd save would proabaly be better spent in Bone wall or prision for the armor synergies, or obtaining a weak bone attack spell. You wont really have enough points to boost Posion past the 15 of venom (well barely) and would you just save those points or gimp the venom by adding to it as you level?

[Mad Mantis]

A dagger mancer is doing thousands hp of damage with the toxin on thier blade, what does another 100 or so hp (in the end game) matter in the way of physical damage?

You can do respectable and helpful damage in the end game with a Dagger. But you can also choice to focus on elemental damage. It all comes down to your very own personal play style.

Most of the time I want to have a physical damage attack to help me with poison immunes. Or just to be able to kill something without having to wait on the poison. This comes from my Meleemancer background. I have always made Meleemancers who used a lot of physical damage. But sometimes I do things differently and make a Daggermancer who concentrates on elemental damage.

What I am trying to say is that both routes are viable and people should experiment with the different builds.

[k0d3]

yeah same here my background is meelmancers that do insane physical dmg (for a necro) or do a lot of elemental dmg (fire/light/cold)... but since leech is based on physical dmg.. thats what im trying to raise... then ill worry about adding extra elemental dmg to help me with immunes or just to speed up killing with out having 10's of green bodies running around me for a while

i do realize that a dagger mancer's (pure) is really slow killing but with insane poison dmg and a very fun hit and run tactic.. but since im already breaking the rules of pure daggermancers by adding A LOT of minions... hell might as well add a lot do other stuff too :evil:

on another note.. raising ur dmg with daggers (phy).... i raised my dex (roughtly 15 points) b/c i needed for a new dagger (laugh if u will +1-2 cold dmg, i know... wow!) and then raised my Str (21 points) for an armor Stealth and my dmg must gone up a whole 2 or 3 points after all that... guess the answer in more dmg is not in str but + dmg items and charms...

[Summoned]

With 152 strength and 222 dexterity on my sorceress (yeah, more dex than my zon) she does about 400-1400 (900 average) with an ethereal fleshripper 298%ed (around 340 max damage), with the help of a pair of war traveler. You can expect to do about 600-700 average damage with a real 300%ed one. It might be enough to make a difference, but still pretty low. Depends on your playing style. Seriously, I don't expect that damage to leech back enough life in melee combat, so it's your choice.

[Mad Mantis]

It might be enough to make a difference, but still pretty low. Depends on your playing style. Seriously, I don't expect that damage to leech back enough life in melee combat, so it's your choice.

Remember that we Necro's have the Amp curse. That damage is doubled against a monster without physical resistance.

[Summoned]

Remember that we Necro's have the Amp curse. That damage is doubled against a monster without physical resistance.
I was under the impression that they'd use lower resist to help out the thousands of poison damage...

[Mad Mantis]

I was under the impression that they'd use lower resist to help out the thousands of poison damage...

For general play, yes. When facing poison immune, no.

[darnocpdx]

Ahhh and you see mantis now the crux that makes me favor elemental over physical. 1000 damage per swing isn't that much. With a Barnards Star (and note I'm not talking about any added damage you'll get:

129-150 Physical damage
1-200 cold
1-200 fire
1-200 lightning

That would be 132-850 damage without curse damage or str damage bonuses from str. mods. Granted the low damage is preaty low but it never happens that low. So with just one swing and no curses I got a higher base damage than you, yes you'll surpass me with amp, then probably might, but not by much if I get to add a % 50 LR into the mix. (even greater with gear that lowers targets resists)

However I don't have to pause for one second to look at what something is immuned too. I don't need decrept cause the cold damage chills all but the cold immunes/ cannot be frozen types. Also with gear that adds elemental damage it usually comes with nice resistances to that element too. So now I got maxed/near maxed resists too. And as for other mods if I'm swinging at 8 FPS I'd rather have resists than say critcal strike (which I assume you try to get as much as well since it can be leeched, + I play HC so defence isn't an option) 1 critic strike =>1/3 of a second difference in killing time. I'd rather be able to continue fighting while standing in that firewall if needed.

But your right it's your preference.

[Mad Mantis]

However I don't have to pause for one second to look at what something is immuned too. I don't need decrept cause the cold damage chills all but the cold immunes/ cannot be frozen types. Also with gear that adds elemental damage it usually comes with nice resistances to that element too. So now I got maxed/near maxed resists too. And as for other mods if I'm swinging at 8 FPS I'd rather have resists than say critcal strike (which I assume you try to get as much as well since it can be leeched, + I play HC so defence isn't an option) 1 critic strike =>1/3 of a second difference in killing time. I'd rather be able to continue fighting while standing in that firewall if needed.

But your right it's your preference.

This is not an argument over what is better. We both agree that both paths are viable. I do want to point out some merits of the physical damage path. You gave me a lot to think about concerning elemental damage, maybe I can do the same for you. Your ideas on Elemental damage will be included in my guide if you don't mind.

Indeed B-star gets close to the 1k damage. But I was referring to Daggers and not general melee weapons. I can get higher than 1k with other weapons.

No Necro in his human form can swing at 8fps. 10 is as low as it will go if you are not in Wereform. Not that it matters that much.

The Decrep helps me to increase damage and slow monsters. Indeed cold damage slows monsters, but it needs to be applied first and slows only one monster at a time. This means you either loose the change to slow an entire group at once, or your damage increasing spell can't be applied. In Hell monsters get high resists against a lot of things. That means you have to use LR more and more. Thus placing yourself in more danger.

Overall I find that I like Elemental more when I go for a Guerrilla Fighter approach and Physical damage more when I go for a Storm Trooper approach.

[darnocpdx]

As far as one handed Unique weapons go the damage of the daggers is comperable to other one handed weapons (as far as physical damage goes, all one handers have the 100 str damage bonus too). The biggest down fall of daggers for higher end damage is the limited number of sockets, so if you plan on useing a unique weapon don't discount those daggers as a potential weapon, (plus there are cheap to trade for since noone uses them, other than Wizardspike).

However for those that like the cruel weapons and ruinwords with sockets you're better off with something that adds lots of sockets.

Now two handers are another story of course no one hander can compare to the damage of a two hander, however I don't think I'd go with any kind of melee mancer without a shield. But again I only play HC so I tend to be a bit more causious.

Best dagger for a true daggermancer would be a rare with the Toxic (+150 posion damage over 5 seconds) prefix and any two of these prefix's':

Hawkeye 1.5+AR (6-594) per level (35)
Summoner's +1 nec skills (30)
Necromancer's +2 Necro skill levels (50)
Fungal +1 posion and bone (20)
Noxious +2 posion and bone (40)
Victourious +2-5 mana per kill (17)
Wailing 25%-100% monster flee upon striking (20)

And the Antrax (100 posion damage over 6 seconds)(33) suffix and these two suffexest:
Vileness prevents monster heal (9)
Piercing ignores targets defence (25)

For some of the stat's I only put the highest level of damage/mod. In many cases some are avaiable at a lesser level so really a great dagger is obtainable around level 30. The best can be gambled for at and around level 50. Nice thing is that most the mods aren't that uncommon and that daggers tend to gamble preaty cheap (but then again the bad ones sell back preaty cheap as well). If you lucked out you could get a 250 posion damge over 11 seconds (even more I haven't been able to figure out how they stack I got an 8 second 202 damage one at level 18) dagger with +2 posion and bone +2 Necro skills,Preventing monster heal and ignores the targets defence. And then add a socket for another mod from ruin or jewel and look out, It would easily surpass blackblog's.

Even one that didn't have any of the +skills in the prefix would I think would be better than Blackbogs or any of the other unique daggers, if you rolled the high end of the +mana per kill and 75%+ howling. Don't get me wrong + skills are good to have but with Blackbogs you're only useing it for one of the +skills. The only other stat on it that is any good is the slow target (which don't get me wrong is great) but I'd rather have some sort of mana sorce and howl (which is awesome for daggermancers).

My ideal dagger would be:

stacked posion (suffix and prefix)
+2 necro skills
100% flee on hit
Ignores target defence
Prevents monster heal

Or even just the sufix of poision and add +mana per kill on the prefix.

[Summoned]

My ideal dagger would be:

stacked posion (suffix and prefix)
+2 necro skills
100% flee on hit
Ignores target defence
Prevents monster heal

Or even just the sufix of poision and add +mana per kill on the prefix.
Venom
"TalDolMal"
Hit Causes Monster To Flee 25%
Prevent Monster Heal
Ignore Target's Defense
7% Mana Steal
Level 15 Poison Explosion (27 Charges)
Level 13 Poison Nova (11 Charges)
400 Poison Damage Over 8 seconds

That's pretty close, isn't it?

[darnocpdx]

Close except 1/2 those mods are useless for a true daggermancer. Ignore defence useless, the howling 25% is too low, and the charges aren't necessary since you'd have those lines maxed anyway,and mana steal is nearly useless as well..

Venom is a good choice for say a summoner that wants some added damage for bosses with minimual added skill points (say 10). But not for a true diciple of the dagger.

[k0d3]

so ur basicaly saying that 10 points in PD + Venom would be enought for a skeliemancer with a dagger.... dunno seems pretty low.. as mantis mentioned b4 think 20 would be a better numer in general specially when PD is ur main atack in the midst of ur army....

another runeword that caught my eye the other day, one of the older ones was Fury with a 209% dmg which could potentionaly a dagger that does just about enought dmg by itself to actualy fill ur red and blue bubbles with out insane amounts of leech... maybe have it on switch and have venom for the free synergies?

[fusiongt]

Hm I've been reading this thread for a while now and was wondering why isn't the ghostflame a useable dagger? I mean it deals no poison damage but I figure the high physcal damage and minor magic damage is good (not to mention the mana leech per hit). Hm yea I probably know the answer to why its not too great but I'm wondering if anyone tried it and had success? I figure if there's a poison immune this dagger would do well on switch, neh?

[Mad Mantis]

The damage is not that high if you compare it too some other daggers. The Magic damage is almost negligible. And it has no really useful mods other than that.

[darnocpdx]

The reason I say 10 points is this: At level 9 or 10 the bonus to damage per second is greater with synergies rather than points in PD. However the real damage of dagger is the duration bonus, which you don't get with synergies. If you got 20 points to spare by all means go for it. but for those not focusing on the skill and just pulling it out for the occasional boss or champion 10 points is plenty. And trust me a summoner will never be able to contually use this skill and keep an army going. Even with the best mana gear your PD will just weaken the beasts and your army will steal the kill depriving you the mana needed to keep casting it. After all it's powerful but it also is about one mana per level per hit (I know it isn't but you throw in a curse and that is what I consider a good easy indication of the mana useage of this spell). Can you really expect to use this alot and keep your mana,army, and curses up?

If you can then say pump one of the bone attacks and boost one of the AI curses you'd be better off than all 20 points in posion dagger. Put the points into confuse or dim or something else you'll actually use alot more than PD.

Also with other builds wishing to diversafy a bit another skill with 20 points isn't necssary but really not practical. With typical + gear 10 pt. dagger can easily be brought up to 13-15 by even the poorest of players

[k0d3]

question could the Vemon bug be affected if lets say i find a shurken head that adds 1 to poison nova? so u have the charges, and the + skills to that skill yet u have no spent a single point in that skill....

K0D3
:rant:

[darnocpdx]

That head would I believe cancel the bug in that + items count as points in that skill...Though not sure.

Reguardless you don't get synergy bonuses with + items so it's kind-ofa moot point.

[Ymp]

I'd still go with an uped Blackbog's...(provided u use psn skills)