MDR lowers Kick dmg

[Jerkazoid]

hey guys us low level duelers have bumped into a WARPED bug that just cannot be explained.

ill just give the jist of it and copy paste my latest findings.. i really hope others can help us out with this finding

the title says it .. it would seem MDR is lowering Physical kick dmg for some reason



[lets just start with some background info]
Test subject 29 non shielded assasin with no more then 300 defense worn for test

Test attacker 29 kicker, slvl 24 dragon talon (war boots) 125 str (5 kicks)
7.5k AR

LCS listed Dragon talon dmg:
281-492 Dragon talon (4-8 is cold, 2-20 is lighting)
(*now ofcourse the LCS dmg is likely wrong anyway but thats not important when i compare the data)

all tests are done with the subjects recording the life removed after every 5 kick attack, the test dummy was against a wall and never knockbacked.


normal pvp dmg (no dr% no -dr no MDR)
[control i suppose]
325
320
354
332
310
247
269
327
215
337
315
avg = 304 about 60 per kick


test A
With a -14% dr -11MDR String of ears

202
150
185
204
173
187
186
189
153
159
195
avg =180 about 36 a kick


Test B
with -12 Mdr viper magi
183
270
102
221
196
257
130
113
249
184
avg = 190 about 38 a kick

test C
with magi + soe for a total of -14% dr and -23MDR
63
73
68
63
55
70
49
29
78
40
avg = 58 about 11 per kick


* so we take the diff wich is about 24 dmg lost from Test a,, and 22 from text b = -46 dmg from 60 = 14 wich is sorta close to the 11 we got on text c.. i guess.. hmm a 27% margin of error? :shrug: but still the dmg clearly is grossly lowered by mdr? ewww



with the MDR theory the SOE is taking a 60 kick and dropping it -11MDR to 49.. then add -14% = 43
or 60 - 14% then -11 mdr? = 41 dmg?

both are a lil higher then the avg im getting wich was 38

now with the magi there are wild changes in the dmg, dont know whats going on, and the -12 mdr isnt quite enough to explain it


I also tried this with a lvl 9 kick mule i have against Fantasy's lvl 10 necro with 2 nagels.. the tests were completely inconclusive , we didnt write down anything and the dmg seemed the same every time anyway...

I have no idea whats going on.. why MDR would even be a factor when all my damage is physical



thanks to all those who helped me test
-Zoid

[InsaneFarmer]

.........bravo

[brianc84]

Here's a hint: your damage isn't entirely physical. You need to think about your damage in its components.

[Shaft.ed]

Yeah, the numbers look funny, but you need to do a test with pure physical dmg. You're adding in unnecessary variables by having cold and lightning dmg in the equation.

[Jerkazoid]

i need to point this out again i suppose

275-472 physcial
6-28 elemental

please notive my final dmg has been lowered over 80%

60 pvp to 11 pvp per kick

[ToThePoint]

whilst there is some elemental damage its dwarfed by the 'physical' damage and in no way accounts for the findings.
edit: hmm going afk whilst posting can make you appear slow :)
i gonna test too
edit 2 : when selecting the skill dragon talon my damage changes to blue text - suggests a change? jab doesn't go blue anyway for 1 comparison.

edit3 : tested 10dr% shako vs 10dr% and 13mdr soe 10 sets of kicks each set did 955 and 984 respectively with pure 'phys' damage (29k ar vs 180 def no block)

[brianc84]

Note that when dealing damage, the game never, ever sums up the individual damage types when dealing damage or calculating penalties or whatever. Hitting for 281-492 damage is merely an interpretation of the data, and like I said, such a thing is never used by the game.

You hit with:
275-452 physical
4-8 cold
2-20 lightning damage

Applying the pvp penalty:
46.75-76.84 physical
.68-1.36 cold
.34-3.4 lightning

Apply MDR/DR.

Then apply resistances.


The ticket here is figuring out how MDR/DR is affecting the various damage components.

please notive my final dmg has been lowered over 80%

This doesn't have much relevance to finding the solution. Don't think about it too much.

[ToThePoint]

just tested with various ele damages also so summarising results:
all were with 10dr%
so 0mdr = 955 dam
13mdr = 984 dam
22 mdr = 1058 dam
22mdr and 1-2cold from sin = 866 dam
22mdr 1-2 cold 1-10light = 828 dam
22mdr 1-2 cold 1-10 light 5-12 fire = 717 dam

so i guess mdr doesn't reduce by up to a damage.. but rather can it can go above the damage and 'heal' per damage?
logically i'd have thought 1-2 cold would reduce/heal by at max 2 (ignoring penalties) but seems that from above its healing more ie 22 or whatever, no matter the damage taken.
strange anyway

[Jerkazoid]

AHA yes i also took off that messly ele dmg and my kick attack did about a 200 total (so 40 each)


then i put on my ele charms (only a lil dmg) and it went down again to like 83 total (16 each)

(this was with 11 mdr soe and 7mdr Spirit shroud, not magi)

so is that it? im not smart enough to know exactly how/what/why its going on but that certianly seeme it

[ToThePoint]

could have sworn i posted ...

increasing number of magic/elemental sources decreased damage taken.
If mdr is only other variable then it must be applied multiple times.
As the damage is decreasing the amount being reduced is more than the damage thus a healing effect.

eg your 60 kick going to 11 kick with 2 elemental sources and 23 mdr.
60 phys - mdr no effect
small ele - remove 23 dam
small ele - remove 23 dam
damage = 60-23-23 = 14
physical resist 14% --> 12
missed out elemental and resist as small and unsure how would apply.
If would reduce the mdr effect or just the ele damage taken (if this and prolly is, then would decrease slightly to around 11 surely)
ofc i am not sure, but seems to be whats beign suggested and pretty much fits.

[brianc84]

all u seem to be doing is arguing my data just isnt 100% acurate enough when the findings clearly show something weird is going on.

Of course something weird's going on. However, you're trying to figure things out with the wrong kinds of values. You need details to figure something like this out.

fomr the single source of DR wich was a 14% String of ears

Just as a bit of clarification, I typically refer to Damage Reduced by X as DR, and Damage Reduced by X% as physical resistance (which of course, falls under resistances). It doesn't change much in this situation...just clarifying a bit.

what is it your trying to tell me?

You should not be ignoring the other damage types. Even though physical is the main component, you can't just ignore the other components.

whats the deal?

Check ToThePoint's post.

[Shaft.ed]

Yeah this is cool. It definitely looks like your MDR is "over" reducing the damage taken. Perhaps a my current MDR/PDR zerker won't turn out so bad.

Thanks for the thurough tests.

[Jerkazoid]

(this certainly is not suposed to happen?)

never could i have imagined that it would heal based on its amount though,, thats just too wild a thing for me to have invisioned.

(and that explains why it seemd mdr was reducing twice :smacks head: )

did you already know of this Brian? should have said so first.

good job everyone

this is this only vs kick though? did u (anyone) test on some other attack? i did encounter someone who was immune to my 275 min dmg 14 zealot.. could have been the same thing i think? (but i had assumed it was just sol runes)

now to swap out those ele/life charms for regular life ones only :lol:

[brianc84]

did you already know of this Brian? should have said so first.

I found this among a few other other things when doing a lot of MvP damage testing ~2ish months ago. I didn't spend much time trying to get an explanation for it though.

is this only vs kick? did u test on something else?

AFAICT, it can happen for any kind of hit (I tested projectiles and monster attacks). The only time it actually comes out bugged is when you have several types of damage in a hit and you manage to reduce one or more damage types into the negative. You can't end up gaining life from this kind of reduction, though.

Hmm, now I vaguely remember Ruvanal referring to a total damage sanity check to apply damages only when the total amount of damage is positive (hence, not being able to gain life). The damage components probably do get summed up right at the end for this purpose (but certainly not during processing).

[Jerkazoid]

yea i was just about to say i tested with lvl 14/13 zealots just and Sacrifice and it happens to them too

i think i got it...
so either i need more then id say 25 minimum of elemental dmgs... or none at all,, to keep from going negative?

[Jerkazoid]

well reaching 25 pvp elemental dmg,, atleast the MDR bug would happen before resistance otherwise lld sorc would be screwed and there doing ok from my underdstanding


But a 30 cold sorc with 1 shiver and 1 mastery.. and +7 skills has a cold armor 21-27

then after pvp its about 4 cold from the armor
now this is before resistance.. so if i had 25 mdr , it works on this and would give me the 25 life?

[ToThePoint]

....You can't end up gaining life from this kind of reduction, though.
Also, lld sorcs only do one type of elemental damage tho dont they? so would only get the mdr coming into play 1 time.

I am unsure of the resistance applied after the mdr though.
Lets say a char hit with fire damage of 10 after the pvp penalty and the target char has 30mdr and 50% fire res what then happens?
if its mdr first then an intermediate of -20 fire would be obtained.
Damage would then be, 50% of the -20 giving -10 (making mdr worse for low ele damage but good for low res)?

[Jerkazoid]

IThe only time it actually comes out bugged is when you have several types of damage in a hit and you manage to reduce one or more damage types into the negative. You can't end up gaining life from this kind of reduction, though.


this is a very confusing statement for me.

if it goes negative on more then 1 dmg tpye,, its bugged.. and yet "you cant end up gaining life from the kind of reduction"



uh....

i need to have more then 1 dmg type?
so cold alone is not good enough? (sorc caster = safe?)


i have cold, light, physical.. the pvp dmg for the two elements are both then the MDR... the MDR then adds itself as life, twice?

[brianc84]

Lets say a char hit with fire damage of 10 after the pvp penalty and the target char has 30mdr and 50% fire res what then happens?
if its mdr first then an intermediate of -20 fire would be obtained.
Damage would then be, 50% of the -20 giving -10 (making mdr worse for low ele damage but good for low res)?

If the damage of a given type isn't positive, resistance application is just skipped over so it's just -20.

if it goes negative on more then 1 dmg tpye,, its bugged.. and yet "you cant end up gaining life from the kind of reduction"

The total amount of damage for the hit is capped so that it doesn't go under 0, so you'd be unable to gain life from the hit itself. That doesn't mean the all the components in the hit have to be positive, though. What was described above is a situation where the net damage is still positive, but 2 of the components in the damage are negative. The negative damages worked against the positive damages.

i need to have more then 1 dmg type?

You need more than 1 damage type since if you only had one damage type and the damage amount for that came out negative, the sum of all the damages would come out negative. Since you can't have a negative final damage, the MDR/DR ends up working like you'd expect; the damage just gets reduced to 0. The effects of an excess in reduction do not show up.

i have cold, light, physical.. the pvp dmg for the two elements are both then the MDR... the MDR then adds itself as life, twice?

Stick to the application order. MDR reduces each elemental damage by the amount of MDR (taking MDR penalties into consideration for certain effects) but the resulting damage isn't corrected if it becomes less than 0. A negative damage will work at negating positive damages from other damage types, giving a larger amount of reduction than expected.

There is no life modification yet at this stage and resistances still have to be considered if the damages are positive. You'll run into problems if you try to think of MDR as life added.

[Jerkazoid]

oh i see what ur saying..

game takes elements and lowers them individually to negative
then incorporates with the remaining dmg (physical in our cases) and causing what seems like -DR basiclly to the phy dmg

good elemental dmg hits = less reduction...and this is why some of the tests showed some big fluctuations

does absorb somehow get into this and causes problems?

could -dr from about 10 sol runes have the same effect onto the elemental dmg being applied?

[brianc84]

good elemental dmg hits = less reduction...and this is why some of the tests showed some big fluctuations

Actually, the fluctuations are coming from large damage range (percentage wise). On a few data points, you got a set of kicks that all happened to roll on the very low end and some where all rolled on the really high end. Most managed to average out.

does absorb somehow get into this and causes problems?

Doesn't look like it. Absorbs seem to be working as they should.

could -dr from about 10 sol runes have the same effect onto the elemental dmg being applied?

Yes.

[ToThePoint]

If the damage of a given type isn't positive, resistance application is just skipped over so it's just -20..thanks for that :)

[Vyr]

Ruvanal noted that resistances over 100% could also reduce extra damage in this fasion by the way, though I'm not sure if that particular bug is still around. This was discovered when Assassins with high level Venom could not damage Act5 Barricades with 1000% poison resistance, since the physical portion of their attacks was completely negated by the extra poison damage that was reduced.

[jumbo_SHRIMP]

if we have 20 mdr, for each type(is it type, or is it each individual source?), so lets say we have lit damage charms, each one does an average of 21 damage, we have 10, does that mean the mdr reduces 10 times so we only do 10 damage now, or does it only reduce it 1 time since it's all lightning damage, thus making it 190 damage?

if i understand what other posters have written (which i think i don't but, oh well....) if we have 20 sources of damage, it applies whatever mdr we have each time, so tons of small elemental damage(small ele damage charms) sources are actually nerfed, rather than having 1 or 2 HUGE sources (such as azurewrath), which is now more effective...

likewise, if we have 20 elemental damage sources, which are all less than the amount of mdr which is in the equation, it still reduces the damage we take by that number...so if we have 10 1 fire damage charms, and opponent has 20 mdr, the charms will do 10 fire damage, the mdr will reduce 200 damage, which means it takes 190 off of whatever the other listed damages are, severly nerfing them...

im not sure about these things...im more asking questions with these little writings...to see if i understand what previous posters had written

phelix

[Jerkazoid]

mdr reduces the total of each element (fire,cold,light) after all sources are gathered


nothing at our disposal could give over 100% res to players for this over stacked immunity anyway,..... unless its an iron golem from a high res pal shield.....
but even then the resistance part of the equation seems safe from creating negatives, though im not 100% sure