Pdagger Bug - Test Results

[Necrochild313]

Poison Dagger Bug Test Results

-------------

As you all know, the "Pdagger Bug" is a bug in which a Necromancer may gain the AR bonus of the Skill "Poison Dagger" on any weapon by simply selecting the skill and use it even though it is "redded out" (reverts to normal attack). This bug has been availiable for use in every version of Diablo 2 to date as far as I know...or has it?

Meet our Dummy, the level 99 Patriarch LoD-Necro, he has:

20 Points into Poison Dagger
20 Points into Bone Armor
20 Points into Bone Wall
20 Points into Dim Vision
19 Points into Decrepify
1 Point into Clay Golem
1 Point into Golem Mastery
1 Point into Summon Resistance

His Base Strength is 200
His Base Dexterity is 200
His Base Vitality is 160
His Base Energy is 25

Using this character I am conducting a series of tests to see whether or not the "Pdagger Bug" is still functioning to it's full extent in 1.10.

The only gear he shall be wearing for the course of these tests are a pair of Marrowalk Boneweave Boots for the Additional Bone Armor synergy, a Harlequin Crest Shako for additional survivability, and a Pair of Sander's Gloves for the poison damage to indicate that a monster has been struck.

After the gear the changes his Skills/Stats are as follows:

222 Strength
216 Dexterity
Attack Rating: 1050

Poison Dagger adds: 450% to attack rating

-------------

PROCEDURE

Procedure Review:

Each test shall be done with 3 different weapon types, a nondagger melee weapon, a nondagger ranged weapon, and a dagger-type weapon. There will be 10 attacks for each weapon, and each weapon shall have 5 tests with and without The Pdagger Bug activated. The Game is reloaded after each test.

Bone Armor shall be active during the course of each test for protection, and the monsters shall be Dim Visioned to keep them still, and to lower the amount errors in the data due to "moving targets" (as even DVed targets have a tendency to move back and fourth).

Each individual test will be done in Hell mode in the listed area against a non-unique, non-champion, non-minion monster of the listed type. None of the monsters will have a shield.

The Players will be set to 8.

The Poison Damage from Sanders Gloves shall turn the monster green, indicating a hit. The Subject will not be attacked again until the 3 second duration fizzles.

Any attacks taken place in which the monster moves do not count.

-------------

EXPERIMENT ONE

Artillary: Double Axe of Gore
Subject: Quill Rat
Area: The Blood Moor

In this test I shall be using a melee-type nondagger weapon to test my displayed % chance to hit vs. my "real" % chance to hit.

Without Pdagger bug, my displayed % chance to hit a Quill Rat with the artillary is 58% with a 1050 attack rating and a clvl of 99.
With the Pdagger bug, my displayed % chance to hit a Quill Rat is 95% with a calculated (1050 x 4.5) attack rating of 4725.

-------------

Test 1: Without Pdagger - Nondagger Melee

Attack Result

1 Hit
2 Hit
3 Miss
4 Miss
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Miss
9 Hit
10 Miss

Results:
60% Accuracy

Test 2: Without Pdagger - Nondagger Melee

Attack Result

1 Miss
2 Hit
3 Hit
4 Miss
5 Hit
6 Miss
7 Hit
8 Hit
9 Hit
10 Miss

Results:
60% Accuracy

Test 3: Without Pdagger - Nondagger Melee


Attack Result

1 Miss
2 Miss
3 Hit
4 Hit
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Hit
9 Hit
10 Hit

Results:
80% Accuracy

Test 4: Without Pdagger - Nondagger Melee


Attack Result

1 Miss
2 Hit
3 Miss
4 Miss
5 Miss
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Hit
9 Miss
10 Miss

Results:
40% Accuracy

Test 5: Without Pdagger - Nondagger Melee


Attack Result

1 Hit
2 Miss
3 Hit
4 Hit
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Miss
9 Hit
10 Hit

Results:
80% Accuracy

Without Pdagger - Nondagger Melee Results:
64% Average Accuracy Rate, Displayed 58%

-------------

Test 1: With Pdagger - Nondagger Melee


Attack Result

1 Hit
2 Miss
3 Miss
4 Hit
5 Miss
6 Hit
7 Miss
8 Hit
9 Hit
10 Hit

Results:
60% Accuracy

Test 2: With Pdagger - Nondagger Melee


Attack Result

1 Miss
2 Hit
3 Hit
4 Hit
5 Miss
6 Miss
7 Hit
8 Miss
9 Miss
10 Hit

Results:
50% Accuracy

Test 3: With Pdagger - Nondagger Melee


Attack Result

1 Miss
2 Miss
3 Miss
4 Miss
5 Miss
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Hit
9 Hit
10 Miss

Results:
40% Accuracy

Test 4: With Pdagger - Nondagger Melee


Attack Result

1 Miss
2 Hit
3 Miss
4 Miss
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Miss
9 Hit
10 Miss

Results:
50% Accuracy

Test 5: With Pdagger - Nondagger Melee


Attack Result

1 Hit
2 Hit
3 Miss
4 Hit
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Miss
8 Miss
9 Miss
10 Miss

Results:
50% Accuracy

With Pdagger - Nondagger Melee Results:
50% Average Accuracy Rate, Displayed 95%

-------------

EXPERIMENT TWO

Artillary: Grinding Composite Bow
Subject: Quill Rat
Area: The Blood Moor

In this test I shall be using a ranged-type nondagger weapon to test my displayed % chance to hit vs. my "real" % chance to hit.

Without Pdagger bug, my displayed % chance to hit a Quill Rat with the artillary is 58% with a 1050 attack rating and a clvl of 99.
With the Pdagger bug, my displayed % chance to hit a Quill Rat is 95% with a calculated (1050 x 4.5) attack rating of 4725.

-------------

Test 1: Without Pdagger - Nondagger Ranged

Attack Result

1 Miss
2 Hit
3 Miss
4 Hit
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Hit
9 Miss
10 Miss

Results:
60% Accuracy

Test 2: Without Pdagger - Nondagger Ranged


Attack Result

1 Hit
2 Hit
3 Miss
4 Miss
5 Miss
6 Hit
7 Miss
8 Hit
9 Hit
10 Miss

Results:
50% Accuracy

Test 3: Without Pdagger - Nondagger Ranged


Attack Result

1 Hit
2 Hit
3 Hit
4 Miss
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Miss
8 Miss
9 Hit
10 Miss

Results:
60% Accuracy

Test 4: Without Pdagger - Nondagger Ranged


Attack Result

1 Hit
2 Miss
3 Miss
4 Hit
5 Miss
6 Miss
7 Hit
8 Miss
9 Miss
10 Hit

Results:
40% Accuracy

Test 5: Without Pdagger - Nondagger Ranged


Attack Result

1 Miss
2 Miss
3 Miss
4 Miss
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Miss
9 Hit
10 Hit

Results:
50% Accuracy

Without Pdagger - Nondagger Ranged Results:
52% Average Accuracy Rate, Displayed 58%

-------------

Test 1: With Pdagger - Nondagger Ranged


Attack Result

1 Hit
2 Hit
3 Hit
4 Miss
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Hit
9 Hit
10 Hit

Results:
90% Accuracy

Test 2: With Pdagger - Nondagger Ranged


Attack Result

1 Miss
2 Miss
3 Hit
4 Hit
5 Miss
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Hit
9 Miss
10 Hit

Results:
60% Accuracy

Test 3: With Pdagger - Nondagger Ranged


Attack Result

1 Hit
2 Hit
3 Miss
4 Hit
5 Miss
6 Miss
7 Miss
8 Miss
9 Hit
10 Hit

Results:
50% Accuracy

Test 4: With Pdagger - Nondagger Ranged


Attack Result

1 Miss
2 Hit
3 Miss
4 Miss
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Miss
9 Hit
10 Hit

Results:
60% Accuracy

Test 5: With Pdagger - Nondagger Ranged


Attack Result

1 Miss
2 Hit
3 Miss
4 Miss
5 Miss
6 Miss
7 Miss
8 Hit
9 Miss
10 Hit

Results:
30% Accuracy

With Pdagger - Nondagger Ranged Results:
58% Average Accuracy Rate, Displayed 95%

-------------

EXPERIMENT THREE

Artillary: Cobalt Blade Of Regeneration
Subject: Quill Rat
Area: The Blood Moor

In this test I shall be using a dagger class weapon to test my displayed % chance to hit vs. my "real" % chance to hit.

Without the Pdagger skill selected, my displayed % chance to hit a Quill Rat with the artillary is 58% with a 1050 attack rating and a clvl of 99.
With the Pdagger skill selected, my displayed % chance to hit a Quill Rat is 95% with an attack rating of 5775, which is much more than the calculated 4725, perhaps a display bug in either the skill description or the formula? Or another instance of the LDS (Lying Display Screen)? That'll be discussion for another topic I suppose...

Because Pdagger, when used with a dagger, adds extra Poison Damage (for a long length of time), a cold damage charm (Hibernal Small Charm of Winter, adds 15-29 cold damage) will be used with the "With Pdagger - Melee Dagger" to indicate a "hit". When the monster is successfully struck it will turn blue for a (very) short time with this charm in inventory, and that will be used to indicate a landed hit. In short, blue will be used instead of green as with the proir tests, because with the poison dagger skill green is a constant (the determining color has no effect on the result).

-------------

Test 1: Without Pdagger - Melee Dagger


Attack Result

1 Miss
2 Hit
3 Hit
4 Hit
5 Miss
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Hit
9 Hit
10 Miss

Results:
70% Accuracy

Test 2: Without Pdagger - Melee Dagger


Attack Result

1 Hit
2 Hit
3 Hit
4 Hit
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Miss
8 Hit
9 Hit
10 Hit

Results:
90% Accuracy

Test 3: Without Pdagger - Melee Dagger


Attack Result

1 Miss
2 Miss
3 Hit
4 Hit
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Miss
8 Miss
9 Hit
10 Hit

Results:
60% Accuracy

Test 4: Without Pdagger - Melee Dagger


Attack Result

1 Miss
2 Miss
3 Miss
4 Hit
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Hit
9 Miss
10 Hit

Results:
60% Accuracy

Test 5: Without Pdagger - Melee Dagger


Attack Result

1 Miss
2 Hit
3 Miss
4 Hit
5 Miss
6 Hit
7 Miss
8 Miss
9 Hit
10 Miss

Results:
40% Accuracy

Without Pdagger - Melee Dagger Results:
64% Average Accuracy Rate, Displayed 58%

-------------

Test 1: With Pdagger - Melee Dagger


Attack Result

1 Hit
2 Hit
3 Hit
4 Hit
5 HIt
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Hit
9 Hit
10 Hit

Results:
100% Accuracy

Test 2: With Pdagger - Melee Dagger


Attack Result

1 Hit
2 Hit
3 Hit
4 Hit
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Hit
9 Hit
10 Hit

Results:
100% Accuracy

Test 3: With Pdagger - Melee Dagger


Attack Result

1 Miss
2 Hit
3 Hit
4 Hit
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Hit
9 Hit
10 Hit

Results:
90% Accuracy

Test 4: With Pdagger - Melee Dagger


Attack Result

1 Hit
2 Hit
3 Hit
4 Hit
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Hit
9 Hit
10 Hit

Results:
100% Accuracy

Test 5: With Pdagger - Melee Dagger


Attack Result

1 Hit
2 Hit
3 Hit
4 Hit
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Hit
9 Hit
10 Hit

Results:
100% Accuracy

With Pdagger - Melee Dagger Results:
98% Average Accuracy Rate, Displayed 95%

-------------

CONCLUSION:

On the basis of the test above it appears to me that the well-known "Poison Dagger Bug" is simply a display error. I am unsure if this is the case with previous patches, but the tests above seem to indicate without question that it is no longer a Necromancer's answer to the poor attack rating in 1.10.

[Slipin]

Wow...nice work NC, great job as always. It seems to be a display error in this patch but my 1.09 meleemancer had quite good CTH and it didn't seem bugged...but from your results there's a huge gap from non-pdagger and with pdagger. More things to ponder.

[Necrochild313]

I remember back in 1.09 my burritonec had a nice CTH too, but since I cannot technically "prove" that in a form as such as above "certain people" of the forum may assume that i'm full of **** ;) ;) ;) lol

[Slipin]

You could reinstall d2 and try it in one of the older patches, but no lvl 99 pwntage :(.

[Alex Kerensky]

Booooo Now my bow necro has a very little chance of hitting. :(

Hmm... Does the placebo effect work? If I believe that the PDagger bug works, will it work?

[EuroJamie]

Nice work NC. Was going to have a stab (pun intended :cheesy: ) at this myself, but never quite got round to it.

I guess we have to look to Demon Limbs, Angelic combos, etc for AR for our Bow/Meleemancers :(

Does anybody know of any charts / formulae that can help calculate what AR is required for a decent chance to hit?

[Alex Kerensky]

Stupid Demonlimb. Not only does it drain my gold and/or chipped gems/Ort runes, I also cannot put a CTA on switch. Gah, stupid Demonlimb.

[Slipin]

More need for AR = less room for high IAS, DS, CB etc....*cries*

[Alex Kerensky]

Wait, how do all the other melee characters get their AR?

[Slipin]

Well buy using angelics and charms but most melee chars have ways to increase there AR by HUGE amounts, a barb using any mastery, and using WW or conc and a pally using zeal and fana....

[EuroJamie]

You could get a Blessed Aim merc, but I want a summons hybrid, so Might is my priority :grrr:

Another option is to stick with (cross)bows that have the ITD mod, such as the Eaglehorn and Widowmaker bows. Widowmaker also adds 5 to Guided Arrow, although this cannot be used in conjunction with pierce, so if you pick this route there is no point in going with Razortail belt.

Venom and Hand of Justice are other possibilities, although the former has "Hit causes monster to flee", and the latter has "Hit blinds target", which would override curses with Terror / Dim vision respectively.

The big problem with ITD, however, is that it doesn't work on bosses, so you'd need to find another option there. Can anyone confirm, is it just bosses that ITD doesn't work on, or is it useless against superuniques as well?

As far as Demon Limb on switch goes, you wouldn't necessarily have to have it on switch, would you? At level 23 the skill lasts for over 11 minutes, so you could work with it in your stash. You'd just have to be careful it didn't run out at an inopportune moment...

Edit: harking back to that post several months ago asking about suggestions for a replacement curse for Weaken, I've got to say that a "reduce defence" curse would be top of my Christmas list from Bnet.

*/me continues to dream

[rickcarson]

Nice. *However*

In Mad Mantis' meleemancer guide I believe that it states that the way to use the PDagger bug is to actually equip a dagger first, and *then* the weapon you want to use. I didn't see you say that you did that in your tests.

So I consider the matter still open, since either I read the guide wrong, Mad Mantis was wrong, or you weren't doing it 'properly'.

[JoJeck]

Congratulations Necrochild on a very thorough series of tests and a clear explanation. I do have one question or reservation on your method.

Why did you use a level 99 character ? I presume that he was generated somehow specially for the test and that you could have chosen any level. The reason I ask is that as you know the monsters on the Blood Moor are level 67. The chance-to-hit formula has two components and these take account of firstly the relative levels, and then the attackers AR and defenders DR. However, if the monster and Necro are the same level that part of the chance-to-hit equation is essentially neutralised.

Was there a good reason why level 99 was chosen that you didn't mention or that I missed? Would it be possible to confirm the results with a level 67 Necro although I do not expect the conclusions to change only the magnitude of the differences.

[JoJeck]

...snip...

The big problem with ITD, however, is that it doesn't work on bosses, so you'd need to find another option there. Can anyone confirm, is it just bosses that ITD doesn't work on, or is it useless against superuniques as well?

...snip...

Quote from Arreat Summit.



Ignores Target Defense (Armor Class)
This ability will not work on Unique Monsters, Super Unique Monsters, Hirelings, other players, and Act-end bosses.

What the game does is that set the Defensive Rating of the target to 0. That means it simplifies to:

AR = 100 * 2 * alvl / (alvl + dlvl)

AR = Attack Rating; alvl = Level of Attacker; dlvl = Level of Defender. So there is still an effect of the level difference on the chance to hit and there is still a minimum of 5% and a maximum of 95% chance to hit.

[Necrochild313]

At rickcarson:


If you are not using a dagger you can abuse the poison dagger bug and gain the increased attack rating. You first put the Poison Dagger skill on your left attack button. Then you take a weapon that does not require you to throw it. If you now make an attack using the Poison Dagger skill on your left attack button, you will gain the increased attack rating. You will not do any poison damage and there will be no mana used. This is an easy way to increase your attack rating.
I do not like bugs. Not even bugs that are present as long as this one is. But I thought that I should mention it because it has been around so long. It has lost a lot of its bug status and a lot of people consider it just a part of the game.


According to this I was using it 'properly' :p

At JoJeck:

Thank you :)

I used a blank clvl 99 from the 1.10 beta pack that was once on this site. That is the sole reason he was lvl 99 (I thought the "LoD-Necro" name would hint that in ;) )

Thanks EJ :drink:

[Mad Mantis]

Ah well, too bad. We will just have to go back to Angelic and Raven then. Start saving up on those small charms.

[Necrochild313]

Ah well, too bad. We will just have to go back to Angelic and Raven then. Start saving up on those small charms.

LOL MM who are you kidding :p

You're thinking "good riddance"

[Mad Mantis]

LOL MM who are you kidding :p

You're thinking "good riddance"

:p How did you know? :drool:

:drink:

[rickcarson]

:p How did you know? :drool:

:drink:

(Cyncisim mode on)

Que the thousands of posts now saying


"How dose teh Posin Dager bugzor workzor???!!!??22!!11"


or


"Here is my ubor leet Nekro guide, he uses teh Piosin Dagzor bugz???!!!??22!!11"


(Cynicism mode off)

Nice work.

[usamahanas]

nice work NC :thumbsup: (too late but today I've read this post :s )

[Necrochild313]

nice work NC :thumbsup: (too late but today I've read this post :s )

Thanks usamahanas

[Smrtihara]

I just saw this as I'm new to necros (starting my first today). Intresting read. Though I have to say that 10 attacks in each try is far too few. Try getting 2/2, heads/tails on flipping a coin 4 times. I know that it would be far too time-consuming to do more tries but still.

[Necrochild313]

10 trys is a bit few, that's why I tested each weapon 5 times and used the average of each test to calculate my results for it. That's 50 attacks per wep Smrtihara :p.

[Smrtihara]

Oh! Silly me! I do understand that now. I had a go at the massive post in the middle of the night and I guess I wasent paying enough attention. Sorry.. Keep up the good work! Ehmm.. err.. :cheesy:

[Necrochild313]

bah, **** happens ;)

[squigipapa]

Darksight Helm has level 5 cloak of shadows (30 charges) which would raise your attack by 22% and lower an enemy's defense by 27%. Repairing charges would be pretty expensive, but if you used an ITD item and just used the charges on uniques/super uniques/bosses, it may be do-able.

As well, probably a better way would be having a CTA (Call To Arms) on switch, with a potential +4 to battle cry, an anihlus and +2 from some other source, would bring you to a level 7 battle cry, reduceing the enemy's defense by 62%. Again this would be great in combination with an ITD main weapon, and using battle cry for uniques/sup. uniques/bosses. At least with that you woulden't have to pay the crazy repair costs for charges. Plus the range on battle cry is pretty much the full 800x600 screen. As well, battle cry would also decrease the damage of any monster under it's effects.

[Mad Mantis]

As well, battle cry would also decrease the damage of any monster under it's effects.

Curses and Battle Cry don't stack, do they? If they don't stack then you might not want to use the cry.

You can also use Demonlimb for the Enchant. Or a Nadir helm with level 13 CoS.

[Necrochild313]

I thought CoS improved your def/diminishes their def.

I could be wrong.

[Mad Mantis]

I thought CoS improved your def/diminishes their def.

You are correct. It raises your Def and lowers theirs.

[squigipapa]

You are correct. It raises your Def and lowers theirs.

woops .. sorry .. :) .. but AFIK, battle cry will not override other curses.. however, i'm not 100% sure on that one .. anyone?

[Necrochild313]

I'll test it tonight

[poor_assassin]

now that its known pdagger bug is just a display error, is it possible for the marrow bug to be another display error? do we have to do another experiment to confirm the marrow bug?

[Mad Mantis]

The tests with Bone Armor show that Marrowwalk is more than just a display error.

[Necrochild313]

Yep, I've used a bugged bone armor and with marrows on it absorbed ALOT more than 1 pt into the skill alone could dream to.

I do still need to test whether BC is overridden with decrep, I got too busy with my studies and forgot :(

I'll post it up when I get home.

[ALtheDefender]

Plus the range on battle cry is pretty much the full 800x600 screen.

Before anyone goes and tests this out, I thought I'd clarify something. Battle cry does indeed greatly reduce the target's defense, but it's radius is only about 2 enemies long. I believe squigipapa is thinking of warcry when he references the big radius.

I'm still of the belief that using CTA for the battle cry is an excellent option, but it's tiny radius makes it much more dangerous to use and will require more frequent recastings than the previous posts may have one believe. Still, this may come in handy, as the rest of the monsters on the screen can be kept under DV (assuming that battle cry overrides curses) while you take out small groups at a time with battle cry.

Hope this helps!