Gravenspine VS White?

[osiriswing]

I am currently using a summoner build, with maxed skeleton mastery, planning to max skels and magis. I also have a pt up to revive, and a req up to corpse explosion. I currently use gravenspine, +2 to all skills and was wondering if I should switch to White later on, that would give me +7 to skel mastery because of the +3 to mastery original wand I have.
It makes sense to me to switch, but I don't really have much use for the p&b additions of white..

[Myrakh-2]

It makes sense to me to switch, but I don't really have much use for the p&b additions of white..

It really depends on your situation. For an additional +4 skeleton mastery, I find the runes for White too expensive. It's really a bonemancer wand, and the +4 SM comes in handy for them if they use Skeletons as meatshields.

If trading is an option for you, that's what I would suggest: get an Arm of King Leoric. Allocate around 15 pgems for it and you should be fine. For a summoner build there isn't really a better choice (although I don't know the high-end runewords...).

[JoJeck]

This is an interesting problem. :) I'm not sure what your total +skills are but assuming they are +5 and give 25 RS and 25 SM at present your skellies would look like this...

10 skellies with
Max Dam 205
Min Dam 203
Life 2904
AR 755
DR 755

If you replace the Gravespine with a White giving + 7 SM you'll have 23 RS and 30 SM

9 skellies with
Max Dam 204
Min Dam 201
Life 3102
AR 800
DR 800

That is a fairly small gain in life and AR and DR at the expense of an extra skellie. So I'd say not worth the effort for this reason alone.

[Mad Mantis]

I currently use gravenspine, +2 to all skills and was wondering if I should switch to White later on

If you can get a decent wand with +3 to Skellies and maybe +Revive or some other skill you use a lot than White is better.

[Kyo]

IMO

Gravenspine = Summoner

White Runeword = Suited Bone & Poison

[rickcarson]

I am currently using a summoner build, with maxed skeleton mastery, planning to max skels and magis. I also have a pt up to revive, and a req up to corpse explosion. I currently use gravenspine, +2 to all skills and was wondering if I should switch to White later on, that would give me +7 to skel mastery because of the +3 to mastery original wand I have.
It makes sense to me to switch, but I don't really have much use for the p&b additions of white..

Skeleton Mastery is absolutely crucial for Mages. Every point in mastery is worth two in Skeletal Mage.

However, I don't recommend mixing Mages and Skeletons in the same build. The opportunity cost is too high.

[Kyo]

Skeleton Mastery is absolutely crucial for Mages. Every point in mastery is worth two in Skeletal Mage.

However, I don't recommend mixing Mages and Skeletons in the same build. The opportunity cost is too high.

erm what does oppertunity cost is too high mean?

if your you have max mastery and unless u need SP for something crucial/specific in your build like a poison/bone skill to syngeries or a specific LOM build then i am afraid imo it just silly to deprive yourself of one of the most strongest features for the necro class. You have already maxed the main skill to fully reap the benefits from the warriors? then why not use it ?>

They work fine with Mages as long as u know how work with or around them.

[GovernerOfCali]

I would dissagree.... Whites looks great for a bone... but not a poison... you get 1 extra skillpoint into it... and you gain 10 life... but loose 10 Dex and 10 Str....
I'm just speaking for the point of a pure poison necro.... Whites is not that much of a help.... esp when you gotta save your runes and luck for Death's Web wand

Gravenspine:
+50% Damage To Undead
+2 To Necromancer Skill Levels
Adds 4-8 Cold Damage, Cold Duration: 3 seconds
5% Mana Stolen Per Hit
+25-50 Mana(varies)
+10 To Dexterity
+10 To Strength

White:
Hit Causes Monster To Flee 25%
+10 To Vitality
+3 To Poison And Bone Skills (Necromancer Only) <---1 extra point here
+3 To Bone Armor (Necromancer Only) <---this would help anybody
+2 To Bone Spear (Necromancer Only) <---only useful if you have bonespear... otherwise, too weak
+4 To Skeleton Mastery (Necromancer Only) <---nice for a summor.. but they loose all other +skills that Gravenspine gives them
Magic Damage Reduced By 4
20% Faster Cast Rate <---nice for boners... but it doesn't help poison users at all
+13 To Mana <---Worse then gravenspine... that's bad for any caster


IMO

Gravenspine = Summoner

White Runeword = Suited Bone & Poison

[rickcarson]

erm what does oppertunity cost is too high mean?

if your you have max mastery and unless u need SP for something crucial/specific in your build like a poison/bone skill to syngeries or a specific LOM build then i am afraid imo it just silly to deprive yourself of one of the most strongest features for the necro class. You have already maxed the main skill to fully reap the benefits from the warriors? then why not use it ?>

They work fine with Mages as long as u know how work with or around them.

When you have two (or more) choices the 'Opportunity cost' of making a choice is the value of the best option that you didn't pick.

Another way of saying it is that there are better things you could do with those skill points.

Its not silly to ignore mages, or to use them only as a stepping stone to Revives, it is a recognition that the proper care and feeding of mages is very different from the proper care and feeding of skellies.

If you have skellies, your support skills and tactics will make mages into second class citizens, and not only will you not get the best out of them, you will also not get the best out of your skellies, since the Mages will be 'getting in the way' and 'activating the wrong groups of monsters' all the time.

One of the things that I noticed very strongly when playing a LoM was that when I was using tactics that supported the Mages instead of the 3-4 Skellies, it wasn't the Mages that were getting in the way and being annoying.

Skellies on their own are fantastic. Lets say that with Might Merc and Amp we give them a score of 44. (ie 1 per skill point spent (assuming you put one point into summon resist))
Mages on their own are fantastic. Lets say that with proper defense and LR we give them a score of 40 (not quite as good, but still good). (ie 5/6 per skill point spent (41 to max mage + mastery, 7 for LR) 40/48 = 5/6)

Now lets combine them... we certainly don't get something worth 84!! The combination of the two is far less than the sum of its parts. It takes 26 more skill points to add the Mages on. What is the combination worth? To get the same value as you did from the Skellies, you'd have to be getting an extra 26 points of value... total of 70.

Now lets look at what you get. The skellies aren't worth quite as much anymore, since the mages are going to get in the way etc etc. Lets say they're worth... um... 38 points. Now the Mages, if you use LR to get the full support for them, that means without Amp that the Skellies drop down to 19 points of value (arguably lower (if the monsters had some phys res)).
So skellies + mages + LR = 59 points.

On the other hand, if you stay with Amp to get the full value of the skellies, that means the mages don't get the benefit of LR, but you save yourself some skill points. The mages without LR will be worth maybe 26 points (LR being 50% better than no LR, 26 + 50% = 39... close enough). Using tactics appropriate to the skellies is going to drop that again, by up to half.
Since with LoM I can easily get all my mages involved, but when I could get all my skellies involved with Overlord, often the mages would be standing around not doing anything, or put in bad positions and mowed down.
So they're worth anywhere from 18 to 26 in value. skellies + mages + Amp = 56-64 points. Split the difference and call it 60 points of 'value'.

Still with me? Okay, so we didn't quite get as much from the Mages as we would have liked, but we still got something, so it was all justified, right?

But what value could we have gotten from spending those points elsewhere? What if we had added Revives plus 3-4 Mages? (1 point + skills). We might find that spending one point on Mages adds say 5 points of value (!!) Thats a pretty good marginal return, and likely an understatement (in the above examples, the Mages were worth 2-4 points each). Since we already have gumby (so that we get summon resist so our skellies don't get beat up by magic damage all the time) its then only 3 more points to get Revive. How much is that worth in value? I have no idea. Lets say you have a mere +5 skills, well then, that should have been say 12 points (2 per potential revive), not a bad marginal return for spending so little. Again, there's a tradeoff between Revives and skellies... the more you get the Revives into hand to hand, the less the skellies get in there. YRMV (Your Revives May Vary)

What if instead of all that, we started putting points into Corpse Explosion? What value does a 1 point CE add to the Skellimancer? What about a lvl 20 CE?

What if we went PNova instead? Or Bone Spirit? What about adding Attract, to get that first corpse just that little bit faster, and take a little bit of heat off the skellies?

What about adding a big Dim Vision to shut down those nasty Hell Gloams?

Hence, the opportunity cost is too high.

[mdkkns]

I am currently building a poison/skele. Using Ume Lament. Should I switch to White if I do find something nice to socket? Any advice?

[JoJeck]

I am currently building a poison/skele. Using Ume Lament. Should I switch to White if I do find something nice to socket? Any advice?
If you don't have a Death Web wand for the end game the next best wand would be either a White wand with + 3 PN, or a magical wand from a vendor with +3 P&B and + 3 PN. Getting +6 to PN from your wand will make your poison effective against most monsters and your skellies will have to deal with what's left.

[Kyo]

When you have two (or more) choices the 'Opportunity cost' of making a choice is the value of the best option that you didn't pick.

Another way of saying it is that there are better things you could do with those skill points.

Tbere is plenty of options for the extra SP. Strengthening curses, strengthening your offensive spells, strengthening your minions just to name a few.


Its not silly to ignore mages, or to use them only as a stepping stone to Revives, it is a recognition that the proper care and feeding of mages is very different from the proper care and feeding of skellies.

What has revives got to do with using mages. Yes they are all part and parcel of your summoning tree. They have no direct relevance on your mages ability other than additional support. So dragging them in your essay and then philosophising about feeding them ....erm :scratch: sorry you lost me. I dun feed my skeletons. I just make them kill for me.


If you have skellies, your support skills and tactics will make mages into second class citizens, and not only will you not get the best out of them, you will also not get the best out of your skellies, since the Mages will be 'getting in the way' and 'activating the wrong groups of monsters' all the time. One of the things that I noticed very strongly when playing a LoM was that when I was using tactics that supported the Mages instead of the 3-4 Skellies, it wasn't the Mages that were getting in the way and being annoying.

2nd class citizens what on earth?? How would u not get the best out of your mages. ?? They dun shoot any different or do anythting different if there skeletons warriors or not. Necro missles do not get blocked by your minions. If u used skeletons extensively u should well know that warriors home into their targets and surround them while mages attack from a distance so unless they all get stuck in tight spaces. Which again can be remedied with good control and sensible play like i already said if u know how to work around them not that hard espeically if u can teleport or quick portal to regroup. Your ideal positons should be your warriros and golum in the front. Mages in or around the target, ideally concentrating their fire on a specific spot and your at the back contributing with spells/curses in safety. This is one of the first lesson that most overlords players pick up espeically in the earlier patches.


Skellies on their own are fantastic. Lets say that with Might Merc and Amp we give them a score of 44. (ie 1 per skill point spent (assuming you put one point into summon resist))
Mages on their own are fantastic. Lets say that with proper defense and LR we give them a score of 40 (not quite as good, but still good). (ie 5/6 per skill point spent (41 to max mage + mastery, 7 for LR) 40/48 = 5/6)

Now lets combine them... we certainly don't get something worth 84!! The combination of the two is far less than the sum of its parts. It takes 26 more skill points to add the Mages on. What is the combination worth? To get the same value as you did from the Skellies, you'd have to be getting an extra 26 points of value... total of 70.

Now lets look at what you get. The skellies aren't worth quite as much anymore, since the mages are going to get in the way etc etc. Lets say they're worth... um... 38 points. Now the Mages, if you use LR to get the full support for them, that means without Amp that the Skellies drop down to 19 points of value (arguably lower (if the monsters had some phys res)).
So skellies + mages + LR = 59 points.

On the other hand, if you stay with Amp to get the full value of the skellies, that means the mages don't get the benefit of LR, but you save yourself some skill points. The mages without LR will be worth maybe 26 points (LR being 50% better than no LR, 26 + 50% = 39... close enough). Using tactics appropriate to the skellies is going to drop that again, by up to half.
Since with LoM I can easily get all my mages involved, but when I could get all my skellies involved with Overlord, often the mages would be standing around not doing anything, or put in bad positions and mowed down.
So they're worth anywhere from 18 to 26 in value. skellies + mages + Amp = 56-64 points. Split the difference and call it 60 points of 'value'

Your thesis and personal calculations (are ..unorthodox) but totally flawed. Whilst u attempt to shower us with numbers and logic. It evident that your "logic" is based on your own terms of thinking. How can u even considering determining what a skill is worth on the basis of their SP investment.?? There is a clear number of factors that totally back this up.

i). SP investment most definitely does not detemine the worth or value of a skill or spell. It would illogical to assume this because of the simple fact that each skill/spell has it own unique function or attribute. Therefore it would be silly to assume a higher level skill would be better than a lower level skill It just all down to where the designers want to lay out the tree. that not to say that level 30 are generally bad but not necessary better than the lower level skill based on rickcarsons theory.

ie is LR better than Amp ? Just because LR is a lvl 30 curse does that necessary make this any better or anymore affective than Amp. Of course not. Using this contrast would be totally ludicrous soley on the fact that they both do 2 entirely different things. I have lost the number of times i'd seen threads comparing one skill to another and asking which one is more powerful or better. ??

ii) Adding more skills points to a skill/spell does not necessary make the skill/spell any more powerful. Curses is a perfect example. 1 point in Amp and 20 points in Amp make little difference on reducing physical resistance. Therefore the total SP investment does NOT determine the worth of a skill or spell.




Still with me? Okay, so we didn't quite get as much from the Mages as we would have liked, but ...........



With u? i dun think i ever got what u were saying in the first place. Sorry i sniped off the rest because about so start part deux of you point system ...again :(


What if instead of all that, we started putting points into Corpse Explosion? What value does a 1 point CE add to the Skellimancer? What about a lvl 20 CE? What if we went PNova instead? Or Bone Spirit? What about adding Attract, to get that first corpse just that little bit faster, and take a little bit of heat off the skellies?

What about adding a big Dim Vision to shut down those nasty Hell Gloams? .

What about it? oh i answered that in part 1. I still do not know what oppertunity cost is nor does it still explain why not make warriors compliemnt mages?

[Kyo]

I would dissagree.... Whites looks great for a bone... but not a poison... you get 1 extra skillpoint into it... and you gain 10 life... but loose 10 Dex and 10 Str....
I'm just speaking for the point of a pure poison necro.... Whites is not that much of a help.... esp when you gotta save your runes and luck for Death's Web wand

Gravenspine:
+50% Damage To Undead
+2 To Necromancer Skill Levels
Adds 4-8 Cold Damage, Cold Duration: 3 seconds
5% Mana Stolen Per Hit
+25-50 Mana(varies)
+10 To Dexterity
+10 To Strength

White:
Hit Causes Monster To Flee 25%
+10 To Vitality
+3 To Poison And Bone Skills (Necromancer Only) <---1 extra point here
+3 To Bone Armor (Necromancer Only) <---this would help anybody
+2 To Bone Spear (Necromancer Only) <---only useful if you have bonespear... otherwise, too weak
+4 To Skeleton Mastery (Necromancer Only) <---nice for a summor.. but they loose all other +skills that Gravenspine gives them
Magic Damage Reduced By 4
20% Faster Cast Rate <---nice for boners... but it doesn't help poison users at all
+13 To Mana <---Worse then gravenspine... that's bad for any caster

The tree is called POISON & BONE. Therefore my quote was referring to that wand to that specific tree. So where u took me saying it was suited for poison better than bone has left me totally baffled. Any more little comments smart alec?

[Ash Housewares]

The tree is called POISON & BONE. Therefore my quote was referring to that wand to that specific tree. So where u took me saying it was suited for poison better than bone has left me totally baffled. Any more little comments smart alec?

poison and bone are two separate builds now, they are distinguished in a manner that they were not prior to 1.10, I would expect you to be aware of this, as it is a fact and not some ploy to outwit you, I still fall into the habit of saying I'm making a P&B necro and then have to clarify it as being bone

[Kyo]

poison and bone are two separate builds now, they are distinguished in a manner that they were not prior to 1.10, I would expect you to be aware of this, as it is a fact and not some ploy to outwit you, I still fall into the habit of saying I'm making a P&B necro and then have to clarify it as being bone

Where a hell did i say they weren't separate builds and when on earth did builds have anything to do with what i said.

Original poster asked

Gravenspine vs White - he explained he a summoner and using a gravenspine and asked should he switch?

i posted

IMO = In My Opinion
Gravenspine = better, good imo for your build

White = not as good for summoner but more suited better for P & B tree?

How can i make this anymore clearer?? It doesn't even have the word build in it?

[Ash Housewares]

the guy was making a point and you jumped all over him just like you're jumping all over me

it's impolite is my point, stop being an *** is what I'm telling you, since politely asking it of you would likely be attacked as well I see little recourse but to demand it

anyways, you said bone & poison, he said bone but not poison

guess what, HE IS RIGHT, does that necessarily mean you are wrong? is it an attack against you? no & no, but do you feel the need to react as if it was and attack him? yes, why? this is not a pissing contest so please (politely requesting despite my intuition) see what you can do about coming down from this super confrontational verge of flaming state you seem to be in

[Kyo]

Another posting just to clarify something i so clearly said and now u moved on to attitude.? I can understand what your saying but excuse me i think i got the right to post or clarify anything i deem fit as long as i dun fringe on the forums rules.

I would have expected with the number of post counts that you have to know this?

I just dun know how a simple clear statement got so deeply looked into. Your attempt to undermine my answer on the sole fact you saw "any more comments smart alec?" Which i agree was uncalled for but neither does it give you the right to demand anything from anyone espeically if it doesn't pass your approval. This is not a attack nor is a "super confrontational verge of flaming state " so may i politely request that you remember this before "demanding" anything else considering you were the one that noted this wasn't a "pissin contest"?

[Ash Housewares]

I'm glad you took the time to make a more civil post, if I have to be a creep to stop you from being a creep I'll do it every time, but lets move past that nonsense

You have the right to clarify something, however, when you clarify you do it as an insult to the person who perceived what you had said as unclear, you are correct in that your reference to p&b didn't say build, but it didn't say tree either, and it should not reflect badly upon anyone who would interpret it otherwise, but your reaction is once again condecending, an attitude that isn't well received in this forum, insulting forum members is impinging on forum rules and you skirted the line with some of your comments which were beligerent and confrontational.

My post count doesn't really mean anything, I have to give you credit for not taking the easy way and insulting me for posting so much as others have done, but I could still be a blithering idiot regardless of post count, or I could be ridiculously sleep deprived as I happen to be.

I don't know that anyone was attempting to undermine other than you, I was supporting someone else, not attacking you, but you have shown a clear pattern of interpreting everything as an attack upon your person, which is not true, my statement regarding the pissing contest was with the hope that this could be a thread not about attacking eachother, but about debating the topic, for example, there was no reason for you to go after someone for saying white would not work well with poison, he was just trying to clarify and you attacked him because... I don't know why, because you were unclear and he noticed? how terrible... just be nice is all, not because I told you to, but because it's in the rules and because you have the sense to know it's the right thing to do :uhhuh:

[GovernerOfCali]

Kyo,
I was only pointing out that you clumped Poison/bone necros into one category. Sure, they are on the same tab.... however, the actual bonus's that a pure poison necro gets from white compared to Gravenspine do not make it worth the runes IMO. You get 1 extra point into your P/B skills... the other stuff a pure poison necro would not really benefit from.... Gravenspine also gives you more mana, and str and dex...
If you had a hybrid and were doing BOTH poison AND bone skills... (with bone being your main focus) the whites looks nice. But for a person maxing the 3 poison skills, corpse exp, and putting points into curses, whites it's not so great. Your post was not at all clear... you said the whites was better for Poison/Bone .... does that mean a necro who focuses in both skills or a necro who uses skills from that tree? :scratch:

You don't need to belittle me by calling my posts 'little comments' and referring to me as a smart alec. Just makes you look like a person who thinks they are god and everyone else is below them.

[Mad Mantis]

however, the actual bonus's that a pure poison necro gets from white compared to Gravenspine do not make it worth the runes IMO. You get 1 extra point into your P/B skills...

Technically you could gain an extra +3 to Nova if you took the time to shop a good wand. That would give White a +6 Nova versus a +2 Nova from Gravenspine.

[GovernerOfCali]

True.... but either way, everyone knows that the ultimate poison necro item is deaths web anyway.... in the meantime, I use blackbogs for the +4 and other nice things it has. (slowing a monster by 50% is pretty cool)

[Mad Mantis]

True.... but either way, everyone knows that the ultimate poison necro item is deaths web anyway.... in the meantime, I use blackbogs for the +4 and other nice things it has. (slowing a monster by 50% is pretty cool)

Yeah, but what I was saying is that a White wand is not all that bad. It is a good alternative to a Death's Web for those that are poor. The true power of White (this sounds wrong) lies in the mods on the wand in which it is made.

[Ash Housewares]

Technically you could gain an extra +3 to Nova if you took the time to shop a good wand. That would give White a +6 Nova versus a +2 Nova from Gravenspine.

bleh, my +3 PN 2 socket wand got deleted along with my .08 viscs and 20fcr 2necro skill circlet, gosh necro talk depresses me

[JoJeck]

I suppose that for Poison Necro without a Death Web, a slightly better alternative to a White wand with +3 PN would be a magical wand with +3 P&B and +3 PN. With two sockets it could get some nice extra mods from rare jewels (resists, life, mf etc.), Ist for mf, or even poison facets for more killing power. Such a wand can be shopped from a Vendor with enough patience.

[rickcarson]

erm what does oppertunity cost is too high mean?

Opportunity Cost is a standard term in economics. You could look it up in a 'Dictionary of Economic Terms'. But rather than just tell you to RTFD, which would sound rude, I've gone to the trouble of tracking down a definition:


opportunity cost: The highest valued alternative foregone in the pursuit of an activity. This is a hallmark of anything dealing with economics--and life for that matter--because any action that you take prevents you from doing something else. The ultimate source of opportunity cost is the pervasive problem of scarcity (unlimited wants and needs, but limited resources). Whenever limited resources are used to satisfy one want or need, there are an unlimited number of other wants and needs that remain unsatisfied. Herein lies the essence of opportunity cost. Doing one thing prevents doing another.

*******See also | economics | scarcity | unlimited wants and needs | limited resources | resources | scarce resource | free resources | production possibilities | production possibilities frontier | law of increasing opportunity cost | value | satisfaction | consumption | production | economic cost | accounting cost | total cost |


That was from http://www.amosweb.com/cgi-bin/gls.pl

One of the more interesting things I ever did at school was switch into Economics halfway through my final year for the University Entrance exams. Of course, for the first couple of weeks I had no idea what they were talking about. Eventually we got an assignment... I understood each of the words in the assignment... but not how they were put together. I didn't know the jargon.

So I went down to the library, got out a dictionary of economic terms (actually quite a small book), and went through word by word, phrase by phrase, till I understood the question. It was actually a lot more entertaining than it sounds :)

Eventually I just read the whole thing cover to cover. And liked it :)


if your you have max mastery and unless u need SP for something crucial/specific in your build like a poison/bone skill to syngeries or a specific LOM build then i am afraid imo it just silly to deprive yourself of one of the most strongest features for the necro class. You have already maxed the main skill to fully reap the benefits from the warriors? then why not use it ?>

They work fine with Mages as long as u know how work with or around them.

I'm not going to tell you you're wrong. I'm just going to refer you to the official forum Fishymancer guide... and let *it* tell you you're wrong ;)

[mdkkns]

Just found a 2-socket (+2 PN, +1 Fire golem, +1 bone spirit). Good for me? I am a hybrid PN/Skelli.

Anyway, is it better to have more skeletons (maybe like 1 more with less SM) or less skeletons summoned at higher level of SM?

[Monarch]

Just found a 2-socket (+2 PN, +1 Fire golem, +1 bone spirit). Good for me? I am a hybrid PN/Skelli.

Anyway, is it better to have more skeletons (maybe like 1 more with less SM) or less skeletons summoned at higher level of SM?

Nice wand for your hybird +5 to PN^^. and i dont about the summon question=[

-WalrusPK:yep:

[mdkkns]

Nice wand for your hybird +5 to PN^^. and i dont about the summon question=[

-WalrusPK:yep:

Thanks! :D And I didn't need to invest in any other golems save clay. The fire golem is a real one-point wonder for me. :yep:

[Kyo]

Rickcarson. - Everyone is entitled to their opinion as I believe there no undefine right or wrong way to play the game, as whetever works for u. However I just think i have went through logically through your economic evaluation on SP investment, pointing out clearly that your idealology behind your thinking isn't realistic when it comes to recommending SP placement, particularly when u base it upon investment and modelling it on number system.

How can u evaluate a skill, just by determining SP investment as it does not reflect the true value particuarly when u associate it with your "economics" without even considering it purpose or function.

That a common fact when it comes to diablo, (anyone can tell u that). Just look at the number of 1 point wonders in most builds, can serve it purpose just as eifficently as any other 20 point investment as long as it serves it purpose. It not a bank, not the stock exchange. It a online pc game dude. So despite the economical thesis on a build, you will find careful planning is the key and not by how much u "invest" into a skill

throwing the fishymancer guide at me, is quite a cheap shot imo. Being a regular here in the necro forum, you'd be surprised by the number of times i read it so i am quite familiar with it, thanks!. However just because it was NF's views that he doesn't recommend mages with his warriors (doesn't necesary mean) that, that MUST be right. A lot of good experience necro players who are regulars here can tell u otherwise. Check the overlord build are u telling me that doesn't work?

So without belittling or undermining your beliefs, i let experience and tried & tested play be the governing factor here. :winner:

[rickcarson]

Check the overlord build are u telling me that doesn't work?


My point was not that Overlord doesn't work, but that there are better things to do with your points.

Oh, and by the way do you even realise that you are flaming me for trying to answer your question?

[Kyo]

Rickardson - Grow up man, Once again u have not bothered to even read what i have posted, so at this point i think it not even worthwhile continuing to debate anything u have posted as so far there been nothing constructive you have added that can answer what i have said.

[rickcarson]

Rickardson - Grow up man

"That's not an argument, that's just a contradiction!"

PS - I'm so glad that you are mature and would never stoop to name calling, name mangling, or other juvenile tactics, such as accusing people who disagree with you of not reading your posts properly.

[Kyo]

so far there been nothing constructive you have added that can answer what i have said.

You'v just proved my point exactly

[Dark Knight]

This issue has been dealt with via PM. I dont expect to see any more flaming in this thread.

[jumbo_SHRIMP]

id say a white wand with +3 skeleton mastery and +3 to skeletons(which can be bought in act 1 normal for under like 40k...use a level 5 char)
thats +7 to mastery and +3 to skeletons, which is a whole new ballgame damage wise....i think its an excellent choice for someone who wants to make like a poison nova/skeletons hybrid...i can prolly give you dol and io if you are on useast sc nl...u buy the wand ill give you the runes, if you like it better than gravenspine, u can keep, if you like gravenspine better still...ill keep it :)...we can do an experiment...then we know which we like better

phelix

[GovernerOfCali]

Just found a wand with +2 poison nova and a couple other things... I forget which now... but, +5 to poison nova.... no more blackbogs for me... I stand corrected... white wand can be an excellent choice for a poison necro!

(Sorry to rehash such an old thread.... but it was either that or post something and be told "that's allready been talked about, do a search")

[essojay]

Even though it only has +1 nec skills and +2 additional summoning skills (iirc) I like Carin Shard. It doesn't have any annoying mods, and people chuck them on the ground all the time. Most of its mods a fishymancer wouldn't need too much though.. (e.g. FHR, life, mana)

[FreakofNature]

Osiris if you are looking for an arm of leoric look me up in game, i have a few and would be happy to trade for pgem.
*myrrdin_