WW/Conc barb????????

[VoxMagnus]

ive been wonderen, is there a guide to WW/Conc barb? ive checked the stickies and stuff but theres only WW barb or Conc barb.

If i were to max ww and conc, i would have to sacrafice shout right? would that make my defence too low or could it work. plz help!!!

cheers

[rikstaker]

check here for some negative stuff on that build.

http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=237290

yes,the sacrifice will be shout,u'll end up with lower defense for u & ur merc & two maxed combat skills which do physical damage.Whats the point?

You'll still be using ww-95% of the time since ww is 3x faster than conc.The ww/con sect preaches that it is the most verstaile character ever & nothing stand in its way....& ww barbs are screwed with manaburn & unleechables so con saves the day....
IMO it just gives variety,but so does 1 con,20 ww or 1 zerk,20 ww.

With plus to skills both 1 point con/zerk can take care of what ww cant, trust me 'what' isnt much.Check the above thread for ways to tweak ww,so manaburn/unleechables are nolonger a problem,IMO a ww/zerk is a much better & meaningful build,heck just one point is enough in that skill,since if u are pure ww,u'll have maxed shout,which is just another advantage pure ww barbs have over-ww/con-a more powerful zerk

No offense Loc.


here is the positive info on that build-locane has got a ww/con guide-its on page 2.

The choice is yours.

rIK

[kfowler]

I have an 86 ww/conc barb. Max your ww and just put one point in conc. After maxing your weapon, shout and bo, put your remaining points in Iron Skin if your using a two hander. If you have a shield you can add them to conc if you want. However, I think it only adds like 5% dam per level. Not worth it imo. Vox is right. I use ww 95% of the time and conc only when I mana burn. I only use berserk for pi's.

[rikstaker]

I have an 86 ww/conc barb. Max your ww and just put one point in conc. After maxing your weapon, shout and bo, put your remaining points in Iron Skin if your using a two hander. If you have a shield you can add them to conc if you want. However, I think it only adds like 5% dam per level. Not worth it imo. Vox is right. I use ww 95% of the time and conc only when I mana burn. I only use berserk for pi's.

the name is rIK. :rant:

rIK

[kfowler]

the name is rIK. :rant:

rIK

lol your right. my bad. It's how they list these things backwards. rIK it is. :thumbsup:

[VoxMagnus]

yeah i see your point. BUT, isnt conc a pre req of ww so there wont be 1 point going to waste even if u never use conc??? thx rIk that attachment was very usefull...

will be going with:

Max mastery
Max WW
Max BO
Max shout

and all the one point wonders...

that sounds bout right eh?

cheers :drink:

[mstrnicegui]

that's right, exactly what rIK was saying. He was just emphasizing that only one point in either conc or zerk, and pretty much always both is a worthy investment.

[Loca`ne]

man... I see you posted the link for against but no link for? I'm hurt rik... really and truely hurt.

WW/Conc barbs are not a waste and if you like you can EASILY get a lvl 19 (SKILL POINTS) into Shout not to mention any points garnered from equipment. Your defence is not sacrificed but one point. PLUS you'll be maxing one of conc's synergies anyway in BO.

The WW/Conc barb I'm using has ZERO problems in hell, as a matter of absolute FACT I can solo in a p8 game.

And my last point is that this is the 7th person to ask about WW/Conc builds and the 3rd to ask about a guide. Maybe some of you doubt the viability, the reasoning or even the idea.... I don't care either way.

To wrap up: Fact remains my lvl 86 baba pwns monsters heck he even pwns a lot of pvp that I've noticed with the right stratagem. While he doesn't dominate, he's not something someone just looks at and laughs.

:rant:
Loca

[rikstaker]

Don't be,I knew your guide would be easily spotted by him,but the thread where I threw bread crumbs at that build wouldn't,since it was originaly titled IK help something.Its no that I am biased,

So don't be hurt.You know me.

besides,It's not just u,I had always preached barb specialisation.If it is conc it should be pure conc,if it is pvp it should be either vs casters or vs barbs/melee.

Moreover,I covered both sides of the story,din't I,& I never pointed gun at his face,heck I even said "choice is yours".

The viability/effectiveness of the build is not the point here at all-I am talking economics here-I am just saying 1 point concentrate with plus to skills,works just as well as maxed conc in the situations were u,me and all ww barbs would be using conc.

besides pure ww barbs can easily have much higher defense,a maxed shout can easily reach level 30,after which the points are free to go into ironskin.Much better survivability,Again Loc,u built ur barb with uber gear,u managed to get by with a lower shout & fewer in iron skin with zero problems,quality gear is the reason why it worked for u-everyone cant afford that,they have to be careful about what they do with skill points-two maxed out combat skills which deal physical damage can be a costly mistake with avg/ok gear.

Even if u managed to get shout upto a decent level with + to skills,the actual points that go into shout will be less,meaning a half blooded zerk.And I can bet my tail on the fact that the situations when I switch to zerk are far numerous than the situations when I use conc.

In the words of Gui " we are all on the same side,except in old war stories"

We are all barbs.be proud. :buddies:

rIK

[Halciet]

I would have to agree with Rik on this one. I'm not saying that ww/conc is a terrible or ineffective build, it's just that I personally don't see it as the most effective use of the points. With one conc and 20 BO, you're already doing more damage than you'll do with max whirl. Since you'll really only find yourself using one or the other most of the time, it seems like a waste of 19 points that could be more appropriately used in something that will be of perpetual benefit to your character, such as ironskin.

This isn't to say that ww/conc barbs such or anything of that nature, I just agree with the sentiments that there are better point-sinks.

-Hal

[mstrnicegui]

I have given this build some thought for the first time since I saw it posted. I will assume someone only to level the character to max the big four and all one points wonders listed in your guide, that's 93 skill points required. This is just for argument's sake to determine the pros and cons vs. a pure ww through my eyes.

lvl req for 93 skills with all quest rewards: 82 (12 skills from quest rewards, but you don't get your first skill point until lvl 2).

I'll consider a moderate +5 all skills from gear. I will focus on conc, zerk and shout, the differing point of this hybrid build. I won't bother to add up synergies here for space constraints.

ww/conc hybrid:
- conc @ lvl 25: +340% edef, +300% ar, +395% edmg
- zerk @ lvl 6: +175% ar, 245% magic dmg, 1.9 sec dur
- shout @ lvl 6: +150% edef, 175 sec dur (just under 3 min)
- total edef while swinging with conc: 490%
- total edef while swinging with everything else: 150%

ww pure build:
- conc @ lvl 6: +150% edef, +110% ar, +300% edmg
- zerk @ lvl 6: +175% ar, 435% magic dmg, 1.9 sec dur
- shout @ lvl 25: +340% edef, 365 sec dur (just over 6 min)
- total edef while swinging with conc: 490%
- total edef while swinging with everything else: 340%

Pros on hybrid build @ lvl 82:
- conc is 95%ed more powerful
- conc has 190% more ar bonus

Pros on pure ww build @ lvl 82:
- zerk has 190% more magic dmg
- def with shout cast is 190% more ed when not swinging with conc
- shout dur is 3 min longer

Notes:
- hybrid build has same def bonus as pure ww build when swinging with conc
- since conc, zerk and shout all do not have diminishing returns, the more +skills, the less difference appears between the two builds @ lvl 82.

Conclusion:
- hybrid is more effective the more you use conc
- pure ww is more effective for berserk, ww, general def.

I'll let others pick at this as they will. This was for my own knowledge as much as for everyone else.

[Loca`ne]

I've about had it with this argument. :rant:

My build... nay, not my build... the sheer idea of a ww/conc design being a waste of points is beyond my personal limitations of patience. The fact remains that I would be willing to state my build out manuvers any other build out there in pvm.

WW: you run into PI's, mana burners, you gonna have to single hit them anyway. Zerk is good yes but you'll have 0 def and you'll be leeching 0. You gonna die... often

Conc: you're slow, you're methodical but you get the job done and with safety, you'll have an extream defence but you sacrifice time.

Frenzy: the flash comes to mind when I play this build, but only when moving around... killing sure you attack multiple monsters but it's limited... you're still faster than conc but not as fast as a WW'er

Zerk: ultimate damage but no def no leeching. Again, slow, methodical killing.

A few small statistics on my barb @ lvl 86

Life after cries: 2888
Def after cries: 9292 (17026 during Conc)
Conc AR after cries: 9150
WW AR after cries: 6528
Conc damage: 3147-8677
WW damage: 2345-6459
Zerk damage: 2881-7941

This might not be the best numbers any of you have ever seen but to me they are the best all around numbers... no single stat is over done in sacrifice to another.

Here ends my 2 cents in this debate. You all go about your discussion as you see fit you'll hear no more from me. I know how well my baba works and anyone trying to prove me wrong would be hard pressed indeed.

Thx for the high vote of confidence.
Loca

***edit loca*** rik, the quality gear you are refering to I got AFTER I reached lvl 80+ by then I had already killed hell baal with mostly rares and a few uniques I had put together through gaming alone.... this was my first char coming back to bnet and v1.10. My gear however uber it may or may not be has little effect on how my baba 'got by' with so little in shout. And to those always talking about which char is better to use with MFing or going out doing rushes... I'm sorry but time is a factor... efficiency was 100% the issue here.

[mstrnicegui]

Sorry if you took offense to my post loca, I had never taken this build too seriously before now because there were enough people whose opinions I respected that said it was unnecessary. I wanted to do this to see the pure numbers behind it as I have yet to see anyone put up any in-depth numbers.

I would have to agree with you about extra points into shout being unnecessary with the one stipulation that the user of this build can get above 7k def after shout. For me, the magic def number in pvm is about 7k. Any time you get above that number, everything seems a little bit easier. I'm a lazy person however, and it would suck having to cast my cries twice as often, but it would be a small price to pay.

[Halciet]

I don't believe anyone was saying "your build" was a terrible idea, Loc, but rather that it wasn't the most efficient for the general player, to whom a straight up whirler would be a better bet. Having conc and whirlwind is nice, it just seems a tad bit unnecessary when most people will only find themselves using one of the two skills more often than naught, and thus down the line feel a bit perturbed about having sunk 19 points into a skill they only use on certain occasions. Similarly, your argument about WW barbs running into PI/Mana burn is odd...against PI, you'll HAVE to use berserk, and against mana burn, you'll already have all the defense you would've gotten from Conc via ironskin. Your damage will be a bit less, but it will still be more than your whirl damage, which is plenty for a skill you're only using occasionally.

You should not take it so personally that some people think that ww/conc is a waste of points. I've seen plenty of people who absolutely abhor the conc barb because of the one-at-a-time kill method, but I havn't let it bother me one bit. Pride can be a dangerous thing.

One thing I'll give you a heads up on though: you should NEVER classify it as "your build" when talking about it. It's not your build, it's your guide to a build, as there may have been thousands of people who created the same build long before you did; some people take GREAT offense to people calling builds theirs...when I wrote the conc guide, I got flamed like crazy by one particular board member who was upset that other people we calling it my "build."

-Hal

[Loca`ne]

mstrnicegui, I realize what you were trying to say with your post and as such my reply wasn't directed towards you at all.

hal, it matters not any longer, I will not talk about my guide or the pointlessness of using 20 total points in conc vs just one.

sorry if i sounded a little over zealous there but I'm just upset is all... I spent a lot of time and energy on that build and every time I saw someone post in reply to a request for info on a ww/conc guide, instead of posting a link to my guide they state reasons against doing it. further I requested the guide be sticked or added to the barb guide list but have not even heard a yes, no or keep working on it... left hanging I only get more fustrated. I'd at least like to be told no if that's the case.

so anyway, if I happen to see someone asking I'll just answer the questions and no mention of the guide from here on... I concider the matter closed.

Loca

[Loca`ne]

I'm a lazy person however, and it would suck having to cast my cries twice as often, but it would be a small price to pay.

btw, synergies add another 3 minutes ontop of what's already on the skill per level... so my cries last for over 6 minutes... I rarely do any baal run for more than 2 or 3. synergies are really important in that build, I did a lot of testing, calculation, on excel no less and single player with different eq variations.

I even tried to calculate it out so all 3 cries would run out at the same time... I got it to work but then you add + skills eq and it threw the whole thing off so I gave up that aspiration. ;P

[Halciet]

Your guide was added to the listings a few nights back.

The reason it wasn't stickied was that it wasn't so much a whole build, but a difference of 19 points...that's not putting it down, but in general you're looking at either a conc build or a whirl build with those 19 points in a different place; in that essence, someone could take either of those two and put the 19 in something like warcry and label it "ww/warcry" and then that would be another guide to sticky.

Similarly, it's not policy to sticky guides on request of the author, but rather support and heavy interest of the forum.

Calm.

-Hal

edit: looks like it hadn't been added after all. Crow and I had discussed it, I just think both of us figured the other was going to do it. I fixed that though.

[Loca`ne]

I'm calm now... seriously

and I looked lastnight and didn't see it up there... might have over looked it is all. anyway, I still would rather not talk about it anymore.

Loca

[Halciet]

No actually, you were right, it hadn't been added. Crow and I had discussed it, and I think we both thought that the other was going to do it. I checked after I made this post and then went and added it myself.

That was our bad, sorry on that. :)

-Hal

[rikstaker]

Loc,

Same goes with me-Did I ever question the effectiveness of the build? NO.
My argument had always been with the issues with shout & zerk that arise as a result.I am not willing to argue that any further now.

Loc,I thought I was in your book,so why the rear entry-"they" & why not "Rik".That annoyed me.You know me too well for that.

I know all your fire was directed towards me-Hal & Gui are just collateral damage. I am always an easy target.Besides somewhere down the line I admit -I AM GUILTY-

I didn't post the link to your guide caz 1.I though it could be easily spotted by him & 2.I was a bit lazy to dig it out from page 2.

I was cruel & careless there.So I apologise Loc.I never meant to hurt you or insult your guide by not giving the link.Hope u beleive me.

rIK

[Loca`ne]

rik really and truely I over reacted and I'd kinda like to forget I ever had that little outburst... you all had good points to make I just felt slighted and well, as I said above, over did it a lot.

and on a side note the guide was somewhere nearer to page 4 ;p lol

anyway, lets just say I didn't have a hissy fit and move on k?

*gives everyone a radish*
Loca

***edit loca*** ps: rik you are in my book, which is why i'll take things you do or don't do, say or don't say more to heart than most others. If you say something is one way, I'll easily believe you 9 outa 10 times over someone else I know less. Unless you tried to tell me the sky was falling then it'd be a 10 outa 10 ;)

[xpumafangx]

Loca'ne I know how you feel I make strange pally builds my self and not alot of people like my build. But they have good resson too. They can beat my pally. Most people I meet on bnet cant. But every time I see a pally vet that posts in the pally forums can beat my build to high heaven. So I really can not say much about it.

[mstrnicegui]

btw, synergies add another 3 minutes ontop of what's already on the skill per level

I took synergies into account when I figured the 175 seconds.
shout: 1 hard point
bo: 20 hard points
bc: 1 hard point

shout @ lvl 6 (1point +5 skills): 150%edef, 70 secs
synergy bonus: 5sec * 21 skills = 105 secs

shout total duration: 70 + 105 = 175 secs

Remember that I was quoting at lvl 82, just before you start to converge on the pure ww by adding points into shout. Also, I was only including a modest +5 skills, you get 10 extra seconds with each +skill going to shout.

[Loca`ne]

aaa, I didn't think of that part... thx