Just few minutes ago....

[darius_paul]

...I was in a melee duelz game with my pally. His resists arent that good since hes made strictly for melee duels. He does do good against casters though but his resists, without a resist shield, are usually in the negatives. Like I said, hes a zealer and if I need resists I use a shield.

Anyways, so I was in this game right? Theres a elemental druid using a fire skill and must have been faceted up cause my life would drop fast. So I put my fire shield on and killed him. Then killed him again.

He got mad and said: "Ill get my pally and really own you!"
Haha...so he does.

He comes back with a smiter using atmas (amp damage) and bo. This is about how the situation went:

(I cant remember his name cause I didnt really care to look, it was kinda happening fast, so ill call him 'Smiter').

Smiter: "your owned"
Me: "ok"

*I cast BO and wait*
*He comes out and comes at me. I start zealing, he starts smiting.*
*I cast life tap on the first hit, thank god, and he casts amp damage after a couple smites*
*My life goes up and down but I kill him*

I dont mind smite really. Its not impossible to beat, however, even with amp damage, smite and bo he couldnt win a melee duel... :uhhuh: :winner:

So then the conversation went like this:

"Smiter was slain by EB_Darius"
Me: "owned eh?"
Me: "gg newb"
"Smiter was slain by EB_Darius"
Smiter: "nk?" ( :hanky: )

Thats when i left the game cause he obviously wasnt worth my time. Moral of the story: If your going to make a cheesey build, at least be able to back your s**t talking up with it.

Ok, ive wasted enough of your time, you can get on with your lives now.

:lol:

[LLD-Vampire]

You said you casted BO not him. Your lifetap is just as ***, if not gayer than his amp. GG NOOB KK THX, what are you so happy about, getting really lucky in a duel and winning then nking him?

[darius_paul]

double post......

[darius_paul]

You said you casted BO not him. Your lifetap is just as ***, if not gayer than his amp. GG NOOB KK THX, what are you so happy about, getting really lucky in a duel and winning then nking him?

He went to cold plains to BO THEN went to blood moor. Thats what most people do who dont want to get killed while boing in blood moor. I never BO in blood moor when i first join a duel game. I always take a WP somewhere and then come back.
To answer your secind question, YES. I am. :uhhuh: "GG NOOB KK THX"

[LLD-Vampire]

*I cast BO and wait*
*He comes out and comes at me. I start zealing, he starts smiting.*


Oh thats where you said he casted it at cold plains, no wait you didn't. How can you list BO as one of the advantages he had over you if you had it too...

[darius_paul]

*I cast BO and wait*
*He comes out and comes at me. I start zealing, he starts smiting.*


Oh thats where you said he casted it at cold plains, no wait you didn't. How can you list BO as one of the advantages he had over you if you had it too...

Because its an advantage. I had it too, woopdie doo. Most smiters never lose to melee duelers. A good smiter with BO is extremely hard to beat with a melee attack. And then throw a atmas on him and you got a smiter using amp damage. You obviously havent encountered one of these before or youd understand the point of this story.
So i left some things out, sue me. He was talking trash and couldnt back it up. Refer to my post in "the most annoying dueler" thread.

[LLD-Vampire]

Because its an advantage. I had it too, woopdie doo. Most smiters never lose to melee duelers. A good smiter with BO is extremely hard to beat with a melee attack. And then throw a atmas on him and you got a smiter using amp damage. You obviously havent encountered one of these before or youd understand the point of this story.
So i left some things out, sue me. He was talking trash and couldnt back it up. Refer to my post in "the most annoying dueler" thread.
<wrong thread I was thinking of>

It's not an advantage if you have it too... You both having the advantage kinda cancels it out. That would be like saying he has armor so he has an advantage over you, aye but you have armor so you in turn have an advantage over him!

Yeah anyway lifetap owns amp and nking people because you know in another duel they would kill you is just plain ********.

[darius_paul]

GG NOOB KK THX

I also never talk like this. I think its immature and just stupid. When I do it, its usually out of spite and im making fun of it. If the guy was cool, in this case he wasnt, then I would have been cool to him. Im probably one of the nicest people on battle.net. But if you pick a fight with me, I can back myself up. :)

[LLD-Vampire]

I want to "pick a fight with you" :) what realm are you on and ladder or not? my GG NOOB KK THX was out of spite for your gg newb remark to him.

[darius_paul]

I saw it, I didn't see the point, anyone using the hack is "annoying".

It's not an advantage if you have it too... You both having the advantage kinda cancels it out. That would be like saying he has armor so he has an advantage over you, aye but you have armor so you in turn have an advantage over him!

Yeah anyway lifetap owns amp and nking people because you know in another duel they would kill you is just plain ********.

Well im not in the mood to explain myself, yea I am. :lol:
So maybe the bo's do cancel themselves out, but then theres smiters that dont use it and still own people. Anyways, im done here. Just wanted to share my "noob" experience. :D But since your making a big deal out of it, I wasnt all happy about it. It was just another duel to me but the guy was BM'd so i returned the favor to him. :thumbsup:

[darius_paul]

I want to "pick a fight with you" :) what realm are you on and ladder or not? my GG NOOB KK THX was out of spite for your gg newb remark to him.

Sure! Im on USEast NL. Was on last season but this season I just kinda lost interest in ladder. Maybe next season ill join it. But anyways, if your on useast id be happy to duel. Its all I do anyways haha.

Im usually on everyday, somewhere between 4pm - 12am.
*darius

:)

[LLD-Vampire]

So thats a no to the duel?

[darius_paul]

So thats a no to the duel?

Hehe ya missed the post before this one. :P

[LLD-Vampire]

Uswest ladder sorry

[LLD-Vampire]

You on right now? I'm kinda bored wanna show me your char and I'll show you mine?

[darius_paul]

You on right now? I'm kinda bored wanna show me your char and I'll show you mine?

If your on tonight I can. I was really only on this morning for about 10 minutes. At work now.... 6:30-3:00 job monday - friday :cheesy:
But yea, lets get up tonight and compare. :thumbsup: You got my acc, whats yours. Tell me a time and ill make a West acc and whisper you.

[LLD-Vampire]

Er arnt you on right now.... :\

*dw.vamp

haha I just killed some stupid fire sorc and some stupid hammerdin. lvl 19 foh kills noobs hammerdins like crazy...

[darius_paul]

Er arnt you on right now.... :\

*dw.vamp

...

I was on earlier. But after that inparticular duel, I logged off and came to work. I only work 15 minutes from my house. And I made the post from work, pretty much as soon as I got here cause it was on my mind and I didnt feel like working yet :lol:

Ill whisper you tonight.

[LLD-Vampire]

k (456789)

[Xircon]

Er arnt you on right now.... :\

*dw.vamp

haha I just killed some stupid fire sorc and some stupid hammerdin. lvl 19 foh kills noobs hammerdins like crazy... Why is it that every person anyone kills is a noob?

[darius_paul]

Why is it that every person anyone kills is a noob?

Cause its a funny word. Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob Noob :clap:

[-Ferro-]

Darius, now I let you know 2 things you would have to consider before posting more on this forums, take it like a friendly advice:

1.-lifetab is the more lame and overpowered curse for melee duelers. It overtakes any other curse, so your victory is not big deal. True smiters hard , true there is plenty of bigmouths out there, but you didnt play fair enough for making this post and get all our congratulations.

2.-Arguing with LLD-Vampire is pointless :)

fer

[ThereisnoPeace]

If your on tonight I can. I was really only on this morning for about 10 minutes. At work now.... 6:30-3:00 job monday - friday :cheesy:
But yea, lets get up tonight and compare. :thumbsup: You got my acc, whats yours. Tell me a time and ill make a West acc and whisper you.

I'll duel you tonight when I get off work, I have a smiter, I'll duel you. for fun :)

whisper me tonight ill be on her

Acct: Nutz4Tutz

[darius_paul]

Darius, now I let you know 2 things you would have to consider before posting more on this forums, take it like a friendly advice:

1.-lifetab is the more lame and overpowered curse for melee duelers. It overtakes any other curse, so your victory is not big deal. True smiters hard , true there is plenty of bigmouths out there, but you didnt play fair enough for making this post and get all our congratulations.

True lifetap is overpowered, but then again, so is smite. All good though. I wasnt looking to impress or get congratulated by my actions. Just playing the game how I think it should be played. Use what you have. I had lifetap. Most pubby melee pallies use exile which life tap comes with. I use exile too. All good. If someone asked me to change it then I would but that rarely ever happens in pubs.

Plus the guy was casting magic in a melee game and then talked down to me, among other things, but thats just what ill say here. I told him to get his pally after he said I wouldnt stand a chance against it. He did. I won. My means of victory has no boundaries when im challenged in a negative way. Its kill or be killed.

And as far as honor goes, I know it wasnt mentioned but it was probably thought about, honor isnt just achieved by the items you wear. Its achieved by your actions. For example, a knight fights for his kingdom. Just because hes using a unique weapon and his opponent is using a spoon, doesnt mean he has no honor in what hes doing or how he fights. Honor, to me, is more about actions then equipment. And besides, I dont need anyones respect to be a good dueler. I already know that my pally can beat (it wasnt that consistant but it did happen more than usual) ebotd and exile pallies using a bstar, stone, HoZ and IK gloves because thats what I was using before I was done collecting his gear.

Again, I was just sharing this cause I was bored when I got to work and I was thinking about it. So i shortened the story down immensly since most people who see LONG posts read about 2 lines into it then skip it cause they dont feel like reading the rest of it cause its "too long". So i abbreviated my story.

I dont need congrats from people I dont know, no matter who they are. Mine will do just fine. :thumbsup:

2.-Arguing with LLD-Vampire is pointless :)

fer

Nah, we weren't arguing. Just having a discussion about my post. I should have been more clear on it.

[darius_paul]

I'll duel you tonight when I get off work, I have a smiter, I'll duel you. for fun :)

whisper me tonight ill be on her

Acct: Nutz4Tutz

Ok :)
I use smite also, though its only a lvl 5 haha

[ThereisnoPeace]

Ok :)
I use smite also, though its only a lvl 5 haha

hehe, well its all in fun anyways.

[darius_paul]

No worries. Im off work in an hour and 40 minutes....15 to get home. So within, say, about 2 1/2 hours I can whisper you. You have any other characters? I have 3: pally, barb and javazon (not cs). Just seeing if you do so maybe we could have some diversity.

[LLD-Vampire]

I must agree, argueing with me is pointless since I am always right! Haha no but really I'll usually admit I am wrong if I really think I am. (it doesn't happen often) and my lvl 42 warcryer killed the lvl 90 wind druid (gg all you banned people HOW ARE YOU GONNA SAY IT DIDN'T HAPPEN NOW!)

I see a pattern is there something about me that just puts people into a blind flaming rage? Everyone I seem to get in "arguements" with seems to end up banned.

The hammerdin and firesorc are noobs because the hammerdin lost to my foh I was using as a joke since it is at no lvl to do any real damage. Sorc sucks because she was teaming me with the hammerdin.

[ThereisnoPeace]

No worries. Im off work in an hour and 40 minutes....15 to get home. So within, say, about 2 1/2 hours I can whisper you. You have any other characters? I have 3: pally, barb and javazon (not cs). Just seeing if you do so maybe we could have some diversity.

whoa whoa, lol, im still at work I get off at 8pm central standard time ><, when I get home though Ill whisper you ill be on around 9 maybe 10 central time.

I have pally / trapper right now, everyone else are mules, however, we can see what happens.

[darius_paul]

Yea, im pretty passive myself. So arguing with me will more than likely end up with a friendly conversation when its all done with since I tend to not argue back. :clap:

Thereisnopeace, ill be on *darius.

[HandofElysium]

...I was in a melee duelz game with my pally. His resists arent that good since hes made strictly for melee duels. He does do good against casters though but his resists, without a resist shield, are usually in the negatives. Like I said, hes a zealer and if I need resists I use a shield.

Anyways, so I was in this game right? Theres a elemental druid using a fire skill and must have been faceted up cause my life would drop fast. So I put my fire shield on and killed him. Then killed him again.

He got mad and said: "Ill get my pally and really own you!"
Haha...so he does.

He comes back with a smiter using atmas (amp damage) and bo. This is about how the situation went:

(I cant remember his name cause I didnt really care to look, it was kinda happening fast, so ill call him 'Smiter').

Smiter: "your owned"
Me: "ok"

*I cast BO and wait*
*He comes out and comes at me. I start zealing, he starts smiting.*
*I cast life tap on the first hit, thank god, and he casts amp damage after a couple smites*
*My life goes up and down but I kill him*

I dont mind smite really. Its not impossible to beat, however, even with amp damage, smite and bo he couldnt win a melee duel... :uhhuh: :winner:

So then the conversation went like this:

"Smiter was slain by EB_Darius"
Me: "owned eh?"
Me: "gg newb"
"Smiter was slain by EB_Darius"
Smiter: "nk?" ( :hanky: )

Thats when i left the game cause he obviously wasnt worth my time. Moral of the story: If your going to make a cheesey build, at least be able to back your s**t talking up with it.

Ok, ive wasted enough of your time, you can get on with your lives now.

:lol:

Obviously he was an amatuer but a competent smiter will destroy a Zealot almost all the time. Also Amp>Lifetap no if,ands or buts about it. I can easily demonstrate that for you if you want. I would be using a nice etheral Lacerator/Upgraded Herald of Zakarum to show you.

*andivius2 whisper me if your interested

[ThereisnoPeace]

Obviously he was an amatuer but a competent smiter will destroy a Zealot almost all the time. Also Amp>Lifetap no if,ands or buts about it. I can easily demonstrate that for you if you want. I would be using a nice etheral Lacerator/Upgraded Herald of Zakarum to show you.

*andivius2 whisper me if your interested

muaha, pete, I use the same thing ;P except not eth :( I need to get one, I have asteron's for and a rose branded war scepter for gm duels, where amp is not allowed...

but yes darius, good luck vs. andivius2, hes very good pally

[UndeadBehlial]

Why is it that every person anyone kills is a noob?
i think "noob" is just a hate term. a gamer insult lol. you get called a noob when you die and when you win. when your in town and when your using a certain skill that that player doesnt want you to use. I just use it for idiotic cookie-cutter builds that try and brag on pub duels who are like 20 lvls higher than everyone and NK.

[darius_paul]

Obviously he was an amatuer but a competent smiter will destroy a Zealot almost all the time.

Thats why I left the game after i killed him (which I did mention ;)). Well, one reason was because I had to go to work, but it was mainly because of the reason you stated.

Also Amp>Lifetap no if,ands or buts about it. I can easily demonstrate that for you if you want. I would be using a nice etheral Lacerator/Upgraded Herald of Zakarum to show you.

Yes I know Amp is better than life tap, however he was using Amp+smite and still lost. Thats another reason I thought it was funny. Whether I was lucky or not, the fact still remains.

*andivius2 whisper me if your interested

Im always up for duels! :)
If I dont whisper you then whisper me.

[Phyrexial]

Don't bother listening to Vamp on this one, Lifetap is far inferior to Amp in most situations. If anyone wants to take on my Amp Smiter with a Lifetap Smiter, I'm taking challengers. I'm not even a pure Smiter, I'm v/t. However, I very very rarely lose to a non-amp smiter. I've met one exactly that I can remember.

The fact that he's smite and lost to a zealer is further proof of this guy's idiocy.

Darius, congrats on putting another moron in his place. He got what was coming to him, and you were at a severe disadvantage.

[LLD-Vampire]

Don't bother listening to Vamp on this one, Lifetap is far inferior to Amp in most situations. If anyone wants to take on my Amp Smiter with a Lifetap Smiter, I'm taking challengers. I'm not even a pure Smiter, I'm v/t. However, I very very rarely lose to a non-amp smiter. I've met one exactly that I can remember.

The fact that he's smite and lost to a zealer is further proof of this guy's idiocy.

Darius, congrats on putting another moron in his place. He got what was coming to him, and you were at a severe disadvantage.
The pally was clearly VERY weak and amp wouldn't help much. He also must have had low defence (or zealot had high AR) so he was doing a lot more damage than the pally could. Life tap owns amp in that situation.

[Phyrexial]

The pally was clearly VERY weak and amp wouldn't help much. He also must have had low defence (or zealot had high AR) so he was doing a lot more damage than the pally could. Life tap owns amp in that situation.
If the pally was weak, then he needs to kill his opponent quickly before they get a high roll. If he is indeed weak, then he's not getting much life back from Lifetap and as soon as the zealer hits a high roll, its game over.

Regardless, an Amp Smiter just plain shouldn't have lost that match. He was obviously very stupid or very poor. Since he had a CtA, I assume the first case. When they talk crap, use an innately overpowered build, and were caught being BM just seconds earlier, they deserve everything coming to them.

[LLD-Vampire]

Well I've been thinking about it

one would heal the difference of the amp. The other pally lost because he was just plain weaker.

I'de still prefer life tap so I don't have to go to akara after.

[darius_paul]

Man, I tried whispering all 3 of you throughout the weekend and didnt get any of you....oh well. Hit me up! :)

[ThereisnoPeace]

Man, I tried whispering all 3 of you throughout the weekend and didnt get any of you....oh well. Hit me up! :)

ya, I wasnt on much, and when I was on, you were or I was lvling my new characters...

oh well, we have time, Ill try to hit you up tonight

[darius_paul]

Werd 67890

[UndeadBehlial]

ok a few things. First, i dont think %'s on weapons like life tap on dracs is BM. I DO think that teleporting away from someone then spamming a ranged attack, then teleing away, etc should give NO bragging rights when you win. CtA is just a terrible thing as everyone has one and I refuse to use one. I got one for the trade, and have traded it away, never used it. Lol these are just my random dueling vents.

Also If you want to duel a good smiter, talk to Diabolico on these forums. His smiter is pretty **** good.

[darius_paul]

I dueled a smiter last night. I cant remember his name exactly but I think it was EOI or EOZ or something along those lines. That guy was really good. Actually, second thought, he was probably the best smite pally ive seen. Even made me consider making one myself.

Thereisnopeace is friends with him. She also has a good pally too. Some nice duels. My barb seemed to even the odds though ;) Now that I think about it, I should have brought my necro in when we team dueled. :scratch:

About this thread: I never argued that smite was inferior to zeal, just that if you use smite and amp, there should be no reason to lose against a zealer. Add BM on top of that...thats what this thread was originally about. I merely told the story that lead up to the creation of this thread.

GD's last night! Maybe we can go into a game tonight as a party and see what kind of havoc we can do. :idea: :buddies:

[ThereisnoPeace]

I dueled a smiter last night. I cant remember his name exactly but I think it was EOI or EOZ or something along those lines. That guy was really good. Actually, second thought, he was probably the best smite pally ive seen. Even made me consider making one myself.

Thereisnopeace is friends with him. She also has a good pally too. Some nice duels. My barb seemed to even the odds though ;) Now that I think about it, I should have brought my necro in when we team dueled. :scratch:

About this thread: I never argued that smite was inferior to zeal, just that if you use smite and amp, there should be no reason to lose against a zealer. Add BM on top of that...thats what this thread was originally about. I merely told the story that lead up to the creation of this thread.

GD's last night! Maybe we can go into a game tonight as a party and see what kind of havoc we can do. :idea: :buddies:

yes, gd's, and that was my friend tom, EOZ, he was a v/t...he is very good indeed.

[HandofElysium]

Sorry I missed the fun but I play mostly ladder now maybe when I get bored of mfing for junk I'll whisper you guys.

[ThereisnoPeace]

Sorry I missed the fun but I play mostly ladder now maybe when I get bored of mfing for junk I'll whisper you guys.

Sounds good pete. me and kev will be on tonight, we can all get together and have some dueling fun.. ;P

[darius_paul]

Sounds good pete. me and kev will be on tonight, we can all get together and have some dueling fun.. ;P

Jen, would you mind if I added you?

[ThereisnoPeace]

Jen, would you mind if I added you?

thats kewl, acct is again, *nutz4tutz ill add you as soon as I get off work ><

[mhl12]

if u want, i can duel u too. i usually play ladder but i do have a real crappy nonladder hammerdin. my accnt is *I_am_number_153

btw.. im opting out if anyone i duel has enigma. that armor annoys the s***
out of me... no seriously it does, im a duel and this ww barb comes at me and ww like a full screen away and boom he tele and im dead. lol.

[HandofElysium]

Sounds good pete. me and kev will be on tonight, we can all get together and have some dueling fun.. ;P

Who is this anyway?

[HandofElysium]

if u want, i can duel u too. i usually play ladder but i do have a real crappy nonladder hammerdin. my accnt is *I_am_number_153

btw.. im opting out if anyone i duel has enigma. that armor annoys the s***
out of me... no seriously it does, im a duel and this ww barb comes at me and ww like a full screen away and boom he tele and im dead. lol.

You can duel my pally and I use enigma. I don't use teleport either i just use it for the other godly mods on it. :D

[ThereisnoPeace]

Who is this anyway?

it's Jen, last time I spoke with you it I was on *MysticDreams and I made the mistake of keeping that geek skiz on my f list.. ><

[HandofElysium]

it's Jen, last time I spoke with you it I was on *MysticDreams and I made the mistake of keeping that geek skiz on my f list.. ><

Oh this is the Trance Dj D2 addicted mom. :D

Yeah no offense thats why I took you and kev off my /f list. I wasn't going to be in private games where he was around.

[ThereisnoPeace]

Oh this is the Trance Dj D2 addicted mom. :D

Yeah no offense thats why I took you and kev off my /f list. I wasn't going to be in private games where he was around.

ROFL!, oh man, I havent heard that in awhile, yes thats me, but ya skiz totally messed up with me and kev, and I understand why you did that, I cant believe I didnt see past his lies... >< anyways, yes my acct is *Nutz4Tutz if you want to hang out sometime, me and kev are ALWAYS on together, dueling / leveling / mfing, mostly non-ladder, but we both have higher lvl mfers on ladder too. mines 75 his is 90, anyways, talk to ya soon.

[Stormshield]

Indeed. I think Skiz is obsessed with me or something ><

Feel free to add me guys. *psi--snake-byte.

I keep /o igw up though, so let me know on the forums if you're going to add me.

I can't beleive your paladin beat my barb last night darius >< First time I've ever lost to a zeal paladin. Ever!

[ThereisnoPeace]

Indeed. I think Skiz is obsessed with me or something ><

Feel free to add me guys. *psi--snake-byte.

I keep /o igw up though, so let me know on the forums if you're going to add me.

I can't beleive your paladin beat my barb last night darius >< First time I've ever lost to a zeal paladin. Ever!

Muaha, y so suk 18noma?!?!?! haha gg kk thx dai more usaman!! korea weens!! haha suk playa! lmao j/k ;P

[Stormshield]

Muaha, y so suk 18noma?!?!?! haha gg kk thx dai more usaman!! korea weens!! haha suk playa! lmao j/k ;P

One of these days Jen... one of these days!!!

[HandofElysium]

One of these days Jen... one of these days!!!

Well I guess Skiz wasn't all what he cracked up to be eh? Anyway I'll add you two back since you don't associate with him anymore thank goodness.

[Stormshield]

Well I guess Skiz wasn't all what he cracked up to be eh? Anyway I'll add you two back since you don't associate with him anymore thank goodness.

Yeah, I figured that's why you removed me. Re-added you too pete. See you around b.net.

[Phyrexial]

Yeah, I figured that's why you removed me. Re-added you too pete. See you around b.net.
Have you guys ever heard of something called a "PM"? You should look into that.

[Stormshield]

Have you guys ever heard of something called a "PM"? You should look into that.

Thank you, oh noble slayer of the spam. Where would we be without you?

[Phyrexial]

Thank you, oh noble slayer of the spam. Where would we be without you?
You would still be spamming this thread?

[Stormshield]

You would still be spamming this thread?
What do you call that? Useful information? :winner:

[Phyrexial]

What do you call that? Useful information? :winner:
I call that a snide remark.

I'm not going to be replying further in this thread lest I fall into your category.

[hks489]

I call that a snide remark.

I'm not going to be replying further in this thread lest I fall into your category.

And here i came thinking with all these replies, this thread must be interesting. This is 5 minutes of my life i want back

[ThereisnoPeace]

I call that a snide remark.

I'm not going to be replying further in this thread lest I fall into your category.

This happens all the time, why should this specific thread bother you so much?

[Stormshield]

This happens all the time, why should this specific thread bother you so much?

They're just looking for something to complain about. God forbid they read something that isn't useful information.. ><