Zon untwinked very difficult

[Kaptain_Insano]

I am bulding a zon untwinked with main skills of Strafe and LF. I just wanted to be a bowazon originally but couldn't kill anything with the crappy bows i found so i caved and invested 15 into LF cause weapon don't mean a whole lot with this skill. I am level 61 nightmare and just beat diablo. He was a royal pain in the %$$. It took me forever. I died close to 6 times. I only have about 300 life. My might merc lasted a second and my level 18 or 19 Valk didn't do a whole lot. the best bow i have come across is a skystrike which has served me quite well compared to any other bow i have come across. Is it supposed to be this difficult or am i doing something wrong? I am trying to build highest dex as possible and have put very little into vit. I'm guessing maybe more difficult than i thought untwinked. I just downloaded atma yesterday(what a dream) so this will help me in the future. Anyway if u could give me some advice that would be great :yep:

[Xiamet]

The problem I see with this situation is that your character kinda switched gears midway through it's developement. Generally, if you're going for a Bowazon, you plan your skills and stats accordingly (i.e: pumping Dex). If you're doing a Javazon or Hybrid, you might for goes as much dex and pump some Strength and Vitality.

LF doesn't require an uber weapon, but for dealing with boss types, it's probably not the best skill. You need something like ChS, which Diablo's very succeptable to because of his size.

Likewise with bow skills...Strafe is good for killing all around, as is FA, but a Bowazon does alot better with a good bow, and playing her untwinked is possible...but you'll need to spend some time shopping for a decent bow.

Hard to start a char one way and then switch over to another. If you could post your stats/skills we might be in a better position to advise you...maybe this char is salvagable as a Hybrid?

-X

[Kaptain_Insano]

str 90
vit 60
dex 230
ener 15
level 62

equip
mask of horror (tal mask waiting)
string of ears
skystrike
sharktooth def 445 armor
+2 passive gloves
+1 ammy with mana
2 3% ml rings with 25% resist lightning on one

skills (does not include + skills)

12 in strafe
15 in valk
3 in pierce
4 in penetrate
7 in critical strike
13 LF

Using a might merc

I would have liked strictly bowazon but have switched to hybrid due to difficulties of playing untwinked. I would love to have titans and SS and a WF or WWS on switch. I plan to put the rest of my points in strafe, penetrate, LF, and take it from there (still a ways to go before i get that done). I am lacking a boss killer without a decent bow but i hope i find one and was told on this forum not to waste point in ChS without its synergies and just make out with LF and Strafe and hope for the best in finding a bow. I have done some Mephi nightmare runs but haven't found a whole lot. I play single player so shopping is a no go for me...living off the land ;0

[Xion-Valkyrie]

trying imbuing an matriarchal or grand matron bow=D I remember back when imbuing items were the craze haha. Since you're in nightmare you should have 2 imbues, and with bit of luck you just might get a nice with with like +200+ ED and other nice bonuses =D. I remember when I first started LoD with a new bowazon I used my rare gothic 130% ED in nightmare at level 30 and obliterated almost everything, mostly cause most bowazons at that stage used low damage unique bows.

[Xiamet]

Xion's right...use them Imbue quests on a good zon bow and hope for the best. You can also start collecting gems and re-rolling stats on Magic Items to help out.

I'd also consider adding a little MF to your setup vis-a vis some Perfect Topazes. This will help with your drops somewhat and possibly get you the stuff you need sooner. Yea, you're living off the land, but if the land drops some nice gear in your lap, go for it.

Stat/Skill-wise, you're on your way and it's better than I initially thought. To be honest though, unless you find a better bow, Strafe isn't going to be the boss killer you need. But...since you've already pumped Strafe, I'd continue maxing it...ultimately, it's hoped you will find a good bow and then strafe will be more effective vs Boss types. Likewise, finish LF. If you have points left over...maybe FA? Or MA for PI's?

Lemme be honest here though...your char setup seems a bit redundant to me, and I'll tell you why: You currently have two excellent crowd control skills...both doing a really good job of that...so why would you then need to switch over from one to the other? If you have Strafe...why would you switch to LF? if you have LF, why switch to Strafe? Ok, in the Strafe option, you may run into PI's, but that's what FA or MA is for.

See what i'm saying here? The idea in choosing your skill setup is to round out your char...you don't want skills that basically do the same thing. This is why I've never thought Strafe was the best bow option for a Hybrid to begin with...LF does the crowd control already. You could argue that Strafe is for Boss types...which is reasonable, but CHS is the better option IMHO. Ideally, you want each skill to perform a specific function...I'll give you a for instance using my Hybrid as an example.

I went with LF, ChS and FA. LF for crowd control via Lightning damage, ChS for Boss types with via Lightning damage + Phy damage from the jav and FA for Cold damage + phys damage. Yes, FA is also another crowd controller, but it's different in that it buys you a little running room by freezing the bad guys. FA also adds another form of damage, bringing your total to 3 (Phys, Cold and Lightning) which means you're prepared for most any situation that might come up.

Here's the kicker...with a WWS as your bow, you get yet another form of damage via the MA. Add to that the Amp damage which also removes PI, and now there's really nothing you can't handle, one way or the other.

See where I'm going with this? Each skill serves a specific function. Plan your skills out so that each one compliments the other, and makes your char more versatile.
I don't mean to sound discouraging, and if I do, my apologies...

I know you probably won't want to start over...but if you do, you know what I'd reccomend for a Hybrid. If you're strictly bow, I'd do Strafe/FA and try to get another form of damage happening via either MA, charms, gems or gear. Actually, for strictly Bowazons that do well with cheapo gear, you might consider a Magezon.

Anyways...I hope somehow all this helps...lol.

-X

[Kaptain_Insano]

Thanks for the input X. I know what u mean about strafe and LF both being crowd controller but like i said earlier in the thread I didn't have a decent bow and this being my first bowazon didn't realize how hamstrung i would be without one; that brings us to LF, u could basically use a broken javelin with this skill although obviously not ideal but its not gear dependent. This is how i ended up with Strafe and LF. Originally i was going to go Strafe,CA,FA and get a WF and a WWS for PI. I researched this character quite well before hand. I did not realize how difficult it is to come across these items in SP offline but I just downloaded ATMA a couple of days ago which is a great program so far for keeping gear that i can't use with one character but can still keep it for another. I just started a Meteorb mf sorc yesterday (level 12) so maybe she is ideal for MFing. I will see. It will be a nice change not to play totally untwinked. Its not as though i have any uber gear for her because i just downloaded ATMA but i will in the future. :yep:

[Shanksie1337]

Tbh i see nothing wrong with LF/Strafe as a Hybrid, infact i can't think of a better set of skills. They are both excellent on there own and neither have synergies that have to be maxed. Plus one is Skill intensive whilst one is item intensive, so it would be perfectly logical to use LF whilst hunting for a useable bow (excellent advise on the imbue's, and you may be shockingly lucky and get something worthwhile from the Anya/Nilly quest - besides it completes the quest which looks "better").

Whilst both skills are primarily for crowd control, they both can be used vs single targets, esp with Merc and Valk thrown in. Also personally i hate ChS as a boss killer mainly because i see zon's as ranged chars, and my res's reflect this - the last thing i'd want to do is Jab/ChS a MSLE. And LI is one of the more common immunities so you will encounter many LI boss's which would totally negate the investment in ChS (bar as a synergy for LF) - which is perfectly possible with this build anyways. My LF/Strafe Hybrid is lvl 83 and already has 11 spare skill points, so maxing another skill - ie ChS wouldn't be unrealistic - and tbph thats where my thoughts are heading (purely for use as a LF synergy, as the other option is FA, and as i use a WWS i do not need a 4th attack). Tho i do have good gear and with enough +skills to leave CS and Pierce at base, and Valk at slvl 7.

Investing in one skill for crowds, and one for single targets is asking for trouble in my book, esp as all you'd need is LI crowd to throw a spanner in the works (or a PI crowd, but they are rarer). I'd much rather have two excellent crowd skills and know that there isn't a crowd in the game that i can't mow down in seconds. And as you mentioned, the perfect bow for this Hybrid imo is a WWS (upped if poss, never played sp), as you get a 3rd attack for free in MA.

As for X's points, i do see where you are coming from, but i also fail to see how LF/Strafe is a bad combo, and i would agree that for a poor/untwinked player, strafe is a questionable choice as it has to have a good bow to be useable. But if the gods look down on you, or you put the time in mf'ing then you will surely get a bow that makes strafe a viable attack.

X seems to be arguing that FA / MA is better as a spare skill, tho tbh as long as your spare skill is a different form of attack than your primary then you have thought things thru. A pure Physical Strafe/Jab hybrid would be infinitelyworse.

I don't see how "If you have Strafe...why would you switch to LF? if you have LF, why switch to Strafe? Ok, in the Strafe option, you may run into PI's, but that's what FA or MA is for."

is any more/less silly than:

"If you have Strafe...why would you switch to FA? if you have FA, why switch to Strafe? Ok, in the Strafe option, you may run into PI's, but that's what LF or MA is for."

As FA is also a wonderful crowd controller.

Still as X says, you'll probably not remake, and i have to agree - keep on with her :)

[Xiamet]

My point vs Strafe/LF build is that it's my feeling that LF is the better crowd killer and ChS the better Boss killer as well...even without a synergy. Both do Physical and Elemental damage, and both synergise each other. Both are not item dependant. FA adds a third form of damage to the mix, and is also less item dependant. FA is also not only a good crowd killer, but it also controls them by freezing targets...buying your zon breathing room and at times, saving your merc's hide if need be.

Strafe/LF, IMHO, becomes redundant for a Hybrid in that both LF and ChS do a better job at doing the same thing, IMHO. Bottom line for me is versatility and adaptability. Three forms of damage, three particular uses. Not saying Strafe/LF is a bad setup...it just seems a bit redundant and less versatile...again, IMHO.

As far as a zon being a ranged char...well...it's all how you plan it. My hybrid can go toe to toe with Fanatic Minotaurs, Exploding Doll bosses and MSLE's et al. She's got the resists, blocking and the damage output to do so...I planned her that way. She's killer both ranged and up close and personal.

You can plan for your zon to be all ranged..my bowazon does that just fine. For my Hybrid...I wanted a char who could tank, deal damage from afar, and handle most any situation in the game. LF/ChS/FA is the way I do it...your mileage may vary.

-X

[RSG]

Some questions, think of it as both me asking you and you asking yourself these:

Why such high STR? You have awfully high STR for an untwinked character (ie no Windforce waiting for you), and a bowazon at that. While it's true that with your STR you could use any bow short of a Grand Matron, a Crusader, a Hydra or a Great Bow, chances are, as a Strafer the first 3 would be too slow and the last one can be replaced by a Blade Bow, which requires less STR. At level 60, you're unlikely to be finding one of the first 3 that's worth using to start with too.

Why so little life? 60 Vitality is something a ranged zon can get away with, but 300 life? No charms whatsoever? I play single player too, and each of my characters has literally half a dozen life charms. With some decent +10 life/inventory slot charms (VERY easily found, these aren't the perfect things rich players look for - +15-20 per slot is the theoretical max) you could easily sacrifice some inventory space and add a lot of survivability. Keep in mind they don't have to be pure life charms too ;)

Why the armour and String of Ears? The sharktooth armour really puzzles me, as you have what is basically a glass cannon of a character (300 life, amazing DEX, and no melee attacks) and a high-end exceptional armour (in terms of defense). Defense is great, but with your kind of life and a setup not geared towards defense anyway, the additional defense on the sharktooth armour is hardly likely to be doing you any good. Ditto with the String of Ears - with 300 life, even 15% PDR wouldn't save you if an Urdar or Yeti started trying to bash your brains in. With just 300 life, I think you can do without the life leech on the String of Ears and swap it with a rare with +life and resistances - your character basically cannot survive getting hit at all, so having equipment that's supposed to help you after you get hit is wasting inventory slots. (You can think of 15% PDR as adding 15% to your life - in your case it would be a mere 45 life, as opposed to a few hundred it would be on a barbarian with his easily 2000+ life endgame. Belts can get in excess of 50 life, so the String of Ears is rather pointless IMHO. Life leech is also more useful on characters which can actually afford to be hit - I seriously doubt LL could refill your life fast enough for you to actually survive a second hit with just 300 life and a low-damage bow like Skystrike)

Why 15 in Valk already at level 60? Personally, the Strafezon is more or less a personification of the motto "the best defense is a strong offense" where priority #1 is killing them before they can reach you. Depending on a strong Valkyrie and merc to delay monsters for you is ultimately a flawed idea, because the monsters most dangerous to a ranged zon (Black souls and their ilk mainly, Frenzytaurs or any other fast, strong melee monster immune to lightning) cannot be stopped by a merc and valk. You also hardly need a Valk that deals a lot of physical damage, since as a strafing zon of any kind (hybrid or pure bow), especially one pumping DEX, you should be dealing far more physical damage than her.


The way I see it, the problem with your character is it neither kills fast enough to avoid damage, nor can it absorb enough damage to make up for the slower killing rate. There's also an absolute minimum amount of damage a character has to be able to survive to make it through the game, and most people would recommend 1000 life as an endgame target. I have characters with as low as 600 life, but that's already pushing the envelope as even normal monsters can take you down with a few hits when you have so little life... 300 looks like plain suicide to me because even at ~900 life and ~0 resists, non-boss pack black souls (in nightmare too!) can take my strafezon down within seconds, and so can yetis and frenzytaurs ^^;;

FYI: if you're having problems with Diablo killing you, chances are your fire resist is too low - the pink lightning should be no problem at all for a ranged zon and the firestorm attack can only hurt you if you let him back you into a corner or get close to you. Diablo's physical attacks should never hit you anyway, so the only thing that *can* kill you is his fire nova - and even a bowazon with fire resist at 0 should be more than capable of taking 3 hits from that... If you really can't find a way around that, it also helps to stand near a corner where there's something jutting out and dodge behind that when you see the fire nova coming at you. (Does NOT work against the firestorm attack, so be careful!)

[Kaptain_Insano]

Just a quick note: I have rarely died with my crappy untwinked zon other than NM Diablo (i can do NM Meph runs easily enuff; just a long walk)

1) I have high strength so that i could wear the best stuff i found (playing untwinked) and admittingly am a it of a newb and originally thought i would come acros a WF in NM or something

2) Low vitality because i wanted to deal high damage with highest possible dex (i have like 3 life charms between 4 characters that i have)

3) the equipment i am wearing is the best i have come across; it may not be ideal but the LL i do have does keep me pretty full

4) i need a high end valk to hide behind because i don't have the best bow in the world or equip for that matter

5) My resists plain ol suck because i'm not planning on getting too close; ideally i would have them be a bit higher but i'm living off the land

And last but not least I stumbled across ATMA the other day and downloaded it (is the best thing ever, wish someone had clued me in sooner) and started my Meteorb MF sorc(level 17 as of today)
i will do MF runs with her and since i now have atma i will not have to play all my chars untwinked :yep:

[Shanksie1337]

i was also going to reply to RSG, but i am glad i hit the refresh button as RSG;'s whole post is mainly about gear, and this sums it up

"the equipment i am wearing is the best i have come across; it may not be ideal"

and the thread title:

"Zon UNTWINKED very difffcult"

[RSG]

Well, the reasoning behind the post was that I play single player untwinked too, I used a Skystrike for a hell of a long time too, and except for a few embarassing moments where Diablo caught me in a bone prison on hell, I've never been killed by Diablo using a ranged character...

As a little test, I stripped my zon of her life and +damage charms and took her to the Chaos Sanctuary in NM, let my merc Iron Maiden himself to death and pulled out the Skystrike and took on Diablo. If we set aside the fact that I was level 83 (so the to-hit was far higher than it would be at level 60), with my 200ish dex and maxed strafe I should not be doing much more damage than he is - 58-374 was showing up in character screen for strafe. For the heck of it I stood in Diablo's pink lightning and he did hardly 50 damage a second... though I had 75 lightning resist so that's a tad unfair to big D. Then I tried standing in the firestorm about 5-10 yards away from him - 200 damage over around 2 seconds - but again, I had 60 fire resist. The fire nova did a laughable 50 damage, and his physical attack around 100 (checked Arreat Summit, it should do 96-127 in NM). I then repeated the test, this time stripping the zon of all her charms and equipment save the Skystrike, Sander's boots so I could run fast, a white belt, my ML amulet to keep strafe going, and one cold damage charm. Suddenly Diablo was doing a hundred damage with the fire nova, and the firestorm and pink lightning would've killed me if I stood in them for more than a split second. Point being, if you invested some charms or gear toward some resistance, NM Diablo should be no problem at all - I was wearing Sigon's armour and belt, a +4 prismatic ring and a +17 prismatic circlet (about equal to the Tal's Mask) with a bit of +fire res and +light res on my charms on the first run and Diablo couldn't scratch me - and that's with rather crappy equipment by any standards, given how the 2 pieces of Sigon's set are beaten by pretty much any rare armour and belt (You could also achieve far more lightning and fire resistance from your armour than what I got from Sigon's by taking a 4 socket armour of some sort and putting two Orts and two Rals into it).

PS: I should mention I get +30 resist all from the Anya quests, so I couldn't bring my resistances below -10 in NM... though the point of the exercise was to show how much difference resistance would make so I think it doesn't influence the final conclusion... ^^

[Kaptain_Insano]

I appreciate the input and the time everyone has taken to comment.

RSG,

yeah my resistances are all pretty low so diablo really hurts and i had a hard time killing him because my merc didn't seem to want to tank (might merc) and diablo kept charging me and bone prison and all that jazz. I was constantly running around like a chicken with its head cut off. Finally i decided to try another route and used my plague jav and lf. And don't forget i'm still not up to level to use tal's mask. Anyway i just started my meteorb MF sorc two days ago (level 23) and she will make runs eventually so that playing untwinked will now be an option.(thanks to atma)