WW, Venom, and open questions

[Speederländer]

Ok, I have some questions regarding venom and assassin whirlwind. I'm looking for any feedback I can get.

First:
At least one person is running around the forum claiming venom does not go through the PvP penalty. This is false, as I ran tests myself to confirm the penalty. However, it does seem to be somewhat less of a penalty than 1/6, closer to 1/4. Does anyone have some deeper insight into this? My tests have been very limited and I am curious as to where this particular skill actually stands with respect to the penalty. And for those people who claim no penalty, I ask you to back up your claims with data and sources.

Second:
Good WW sins DO seem to cause massive damage. My kicker finds BOTD WW barbs an easier match-up. While I may be exagerating a little with that statement, I can't help the feeling that something is up with WW assassins and the massive damage they cause. I have max block, 85% poison res, stacked poison res, and 45% DR, yet one pass can hit me for 2K+ damage (if I'm recalling correctly). Considering the damage sources and the supposed PvP penalties this seems extreme. Could someone who is an expert on WW sins please break down the damage sources, through the PvP penalties, and give me an idea of what the total final damage is PER WW HIT should be? I sometimes find myself wondering if the WW skill, when employed by assassins from a chaos claw, doesn't have some buggy extra damage or lack of penalty associated with it. Even if I shift kick, to keep max block and full defense, the result is the same. This isn't against all ww sins, to be sure, but rather with respect to the better ones I have come across.

[squigipapa]

I would also like, very much to see some test results on this. I may try a few simple tests tonight (2 computers, 2 cd-key's) I'm not discounting the person here that is saying that it dosen't, only I find it very surprising.

@Speederlander: When you did your tests, were you doing them with venom and whirlwind or simply a normal attack with venom buffed? Perhaps, if there is something there, it's only with venom when used with ww. The other thing is when testing venom with whirlwind (using chaos/fury) how would one go about testing the amount of venom damage done without the numbers being messed up by the magic dmg, Open Wounds, Deadly Strike etc. etc?

I have noticed that I do quite a bit of damage with my PvP ww sin, but I've never actually started thinking about how 'little' venom damage I should be doing ... say against someone with 75% resistance and 75% length reduction... I must admit I find it hard to believe that if the penalty is 1/6 on my venom damage that I'm able to take a 2k life barb down to a sliver in 1 or 2 ww passes. My interest is really peaked in this issue now, and I really hope someone can give some valid, reproduceable proof that this is the case.

[Speederländer]

I would also like, very much to see some test results on this. I may try a few simple tests tonight (2 computers, 2 cd-key's) I'm not discounting the person here that is saying that it dosen't, only I find it very surprising.

@Speederlander: When you did your tests, were you doing them with venom and whirlwind or simply a normal attack with venom buffed? Perhaps, if there is something there, it's only with venom when used with ww. The other thing is when testing venom with whirlwind (using chaos/fury) how would one go about testing the amount of venom damage done without the numbers being messed up by the magic dmg, Open Wounds, Deadly Strike etc. etc?

I have noticed that I do quite a bit of damage with my PvP ww sin, but I've never actually started thinking about how 'little' venom damage I should be doing ... say against someone with 75% resistance and 75% length reduction... I must admit I find it hard to believe that if the penalty is 1/6 on my venom damage that I'm able to take a 2k life barb down to a sliver in 1 or 2 ww passes. My interest is really peaked in this issue now, and I really hope someone can give some valid, reproduceable proof that this is the case.

In my test I simply used a 1 to 5 damage knife with a normal attack in order to keep the physical damage to a minimum. It's my opinion that venom has a slightly less than 1/6 penalty with normal attacks, perhaps 1/5 or a bit less. However, as you state, the damage inflicted by WW, even a really buffed out WW sin, seems more massive than it really should be. I've wondered in the past about some bug that allows partial ww damage to escape the PvP penalty but I don't have the capacity to test it well as I don't have a real, dedicated ww assassin.

I propose that a series of tests be formulated to check out damage. I am perhaps not the best person to do that formulation though as I am not a ww expert. I know there is some controversy, for example, about the impact of different speed claws and the number of hits that ww delivers. We need a good ww sin with a lot of equipment to vary around and a high life test subject who can use varying amounts of resistance (from zero to 85 or so), DR, PLR, etc.

OW takes time to inclict damage. If you check life instantly after the hits, you should have a ballpark idea of the immediate damage from physical, magic and venom sources. Open wounds will just have to worked around and factored in to the damage numbers.

[squigipapa]

Alright, so here's what I'm thinking. I'll take my barb. Strip him, in normal, thus he would have 30% poison resistance. Note his life. Then take my ww sin, strip her, check her damage. Then namelock and hit the barb say 10 to 20 times, noteing the damage each time. This would be simply with the chaos, nothing else. Then I'll huff a level 20 venom, wearing again, nothing but the chaos and hit the barb 10 to 20 more times .. again, noteing the damage each time. IF, there is no pvp penalty I should see a significant damage increase in avrage damage after huffing venom.

Does this sound like a viable test? Let me know what you think.

[Speederländer]

Alright, so here's what I'm thinking. I'll take my barb. Strip him, in normal, thus he would have 30% poison resistance. Note his life. Then take my ww sin, strip her, check her damage. Then namelock and hit the barb say 10 to 20 times, noteing the damage each time. This would be simply with the chaos, nothing else. Then I'll huff a level 20 venom, wearing again, nothing but the chaos and hit the barb 10 to 20 more times .. again, noteing the damage each time. IF, there is no pvp penalty I should see a significant damage increase in avrage damage after huffing venom.

Does this sound like a viable test? Let me know what you think.

If you take him to nm, he'll have exactly zero poison res right? I think that would be easier. One thing I need to take the time figure out, is how many times a single claw WW can hit on one pass? What happens with 2 claws? Take this into consideration. If the number of hits vary, along with the damage range, you may have difficulty getting statistically sound results from only a handful of runs.

Another thing, so many assassins use fury, I wonder if there is some interaction there with fury. Or some other piece of common equipment. Could bramble be causing GREATER than listed damage? I think that question deserves exploring. Most of the assassins that have been the most damaging tend to have bramble (though this is not a scientific observation) and trangs. Perhaps bramble + trangs kicks in something extra?

[squigipapa]

If you take him to nm, he'll have exactly zero poison res right? I think that would be easier. One thing I need to take the time figure out, is how many times a single claw WW can hit on one pass? What happens with 2 claws? Take this into consideration. If the number of hits vary, along with the damage range, you may have difficulty getting statistically sound results from only a handful of runs.

Another thing, so many assassins use fury, I wonder if there is some interaction there with fury. Or some other piece of common equipment. Could bramble be causing GREATER than listed damage? I think that question deserves exploring. Most of the assassins that have been the most damaging tend to have bramble (though this is not a scientific observation) and trangs. Perhaps bramble + trangs kicks in something extra?

Well, I guess it still woulden't be that hard to test out. So, Take an assassin, wearing only:

Bramble
Chaos
Fury
Trangs Gloves

Don't huff venom, Whirlwind the naked barb (from NM for 0 resistance) a number of times.. A high enough number of times to get some fairly accurate stats. Note the damage, and calculate the avrage damage over the number of times, Right After the impact, to minimize skewed stats from open wounds etc.

Then: Huff your venom, do the same thing. with bramble & venom and shadow charms etc. My venom damage is around 2k, if there is NO pvp penalty, it should be fairly obvious because this is a massive amount of pvp damage.

So, how does that sound?

[Speederländer]

Well, I guess it still woulden't be that hard to test out. So, Take an assassin, wearing only:

Bramble
Chaos
Fury
Trangs Gloves

Don't huff venom, Whirlwind the naked barb (from NM for 0 resistance) a number of times.. A high enough number of times to get some fairly accurate stats. Note the damage, and calculate the avrage damage over the number of times, Right After the impact, to minimize skewed stats from open wounds etc.

Then: Huff your venom, do the same thing. with bramble & venom and shadow charms etc. My venom damage is around 2k, if there is NO pvp penalty, it should be fairly obvious because this is a massive amount of pvp damage.

So, how does that sound?

Give it a shot. It's a starting point and you can at least rule some things out.

[ilkori]

Using a well equiped WW sin, these were the numbers I got (averages, theoretically). Magic from Chaos, Enchant from Demon Limb, Physical from Fury and Chaos (with 9x 3/20/20s, Deadly/Crit strike included into averages), then damage per frame from Venom and Open Wounds. If someone wants to check these, please do. I could have easily made a mistake in the penalties or resists. Let me know if I forgot something, also.WW Damage Sources Level 90, 37ish shadow skills
Type Raw PvP Res End damage

Direct Damage Effects
Magic 344 0.17 0 58.4
Enchant 99 0.17 75 4.2
Fury 1166 0.17 50 99.1
Chaos 1321 0.17 50 112.3

Damage/Frame Effects
Venom 300 0.17 75 12.8
OW 11.99 0.25 0 3.0
Btw, Speederländer, did you get a chance to check your private messages?

[Speederländer]

Using a well equiped WW sin, these were the numbers I got (averages, theoretically). Magic from Chaos, Enchant from Demon Limb, Physical from Fury and Chaos (with 9x 3/20/20s, Deadly/Crit strike included into averages), then damage per frame from Venom and Open Wounds. If someone wants to check these, please do. I could have easily made a mistake in the penalties or resists. Let me know if I forgot something, also.WW Damage Sources Level 90, 37ish shadow skills
Type Raw PvP Res End damage

Direct Damage Effects
Magic 344 0.17 0 58.4
Enchant 99 0.17 75 4.2
Fury 1166 0.17 50 99.1
Chaos 1321 0.17 50 112.3

Damage/Frame Effects
Venom 300 0.17 75 12.8
OW 11.99 0.25 0 3.0
Btw, Speederländer, did you get a chance to check your private messages?

Checking PMs now.....

Could you break out the venom a bit more? It's the venom that is currently suspected of exceeeding caps (but it could be something else). Is that bramble venom with trangs and some facets? Assume enough stacked res to offset just 2 or 3 facets, as I always have good stacked res yet still get shlocked good.

[D1ce]

Guys check what I said in the Best WW-Sin armour thread about +Poisen damage's hidden bonus.

[squigipapa]

Hitting Procedure: Simply name lock the barb and right-click (whirlwind) once. Not whirling through the barb,
simply hitting him once or twice sometimes, but the whirlwind would stop at the barb.

Test 1:
-------

Attacker:
Level: Assassin Lvl 85.
Equiptment: Naked except Chaos Claw (309%ED/216-471Magic).
Mastery: 1 Claw Mastery.
WW Level: 1
Venom?: No Venom Buff.
Strength: 125 (115+10 from Chaos)
WW Damage: 482-957

Victum:
Level: Barbarian Level 99
Equiptment: Nothing, Completly Naked.
Resistance: 2
Life: 2002

Hit #1: 108 dmg
Hit #2: 240 dmg (I'm assumeing Critical Strike from the 3% chance of lvl 1 claw mast.)
Hit #3: 239 dmg (assume Critical again)
Hit #4: 120 dmg
Hit #5: 678 dmg (1 hit ww, open wounds triggered.)
Hit #6: 114 dmg
Hit #7: 743 dmg (2 hit ww, open wounds triggered on the second hit)
Hit #8: 795 dmg (2 hit ww, open wounds triggered on the second hit, possibly crit. as well)
Hit #9: 619 dmg (1 hit ww, open wounds triggered)
Hit #10: 832 dmg (2 hit ww, open wounds, suspect crit as well.)
Hit #11: 743 dmg (2 hit ww, open wounds, second hit)
Hit #12: 625 dmg (1 hit ww, open wounds triggered.)
Hit #13: 114 dmg
Hit #14: 132 dmg
Hit #15: 714 dmg (2 hit ww, open wounds, second hit)
Hit #16: 594 dmg (1 hit ww, open wounds triggered)
Hit #17: 126 dmg
Hit #18: 132 dmg
Hit #19: 625 dmg (1 hit ww, open wounds triggered)
Hit #20: 100 dmg

So this is all I've had the time to test so far. No venom tests yet, however, I'm really
surprised at the open wounds damage. It seems to be really high, again this is a lvl 85
sin, so this is the exact open wounds damage that I would do PvP with my realm sin.
Looking at thoes numbers and factoring in a lvl 30 or so claw mastery, Venom, Crushing blow,
Deadly strike, having fury in the second hand as opposed to nothing, Charms, Jewels, and
potential damage from the rest of your equiptment.. not to mencion hitting way more
than 1 or 2 times by actually ww'ing through someone.. I think the final numbers when I've
completed all the testing is going to be really surprising.

Is open wounds supposed to do THAT much damage in PvP? It just seems to be a lot of damage
considering that equiptment dosen't really matter because there's no way to reduce the amount
of open wounds damage you take.

So as soon as I've completed any other tests, which will include adding pieces of equiptment
and venom, and claw mastery and bramble and trangs etc. etc. .. one by one.. I will post my
results.. however, I wanted to get this up more to show how I was going about testing and
get feedback on it.. Again, this is only 20 hits.. not enough to get solid stats from, but
just to try and get a better understanding of how a ww sin can take off so much life if all
PvP factors are present.

More to come.....

[Caerbannog]

Hmm.... a WWSin usually has those Chaos/Fury/.../Gore Rider, so you get
1) Venom
2) Open Wounds
3) Crushing blow (possibly more than once in 1 WW)
4) Nasty magic damage (is it counted as an element, having no PvP penalty? Kinda like elemental charms?)
One WW is like umm... a lot of hits in about 1.5 seconds I'd say, that's 3 full timers for a Venom, assuming u manage to miss every hit between the .4 second periods :P

Someone give me a Chaos claw so I can test these things too :uhhuh:

[Speederländer]

squigipapa, very good. Yes, OW is sick damage. But it takes time.

[squigipapa]

squigipapa, very good. Yes, OW is sick damage. But it takes time.

Ya, that's insane .. especially since that damage could be done basically naked with a malice claw. True it's over time, however, it's sick how fast the barb's life was falling. Although I only tested 20 hits every single time I managed to hit twice in a single whirlwind open wounds was triggered. Going by that, and assumeing you're going to hit like 4 times or so when you whirl through someone, depending on AR etc. of course, with the combined 91% chance of open wounds you're pertty much going to trigger open wounds on each whirl through. I believe that OW dosen't add together if it's on 2 weapons, but even with the 66% then the 25% .. still assumeing 4 hits .. your chances of triggering it on a single whirl are pretty damn good.

I'm really anxious to do some more of these tests .. probably tommorow night .. here are the different ones I will be doing:

----------

Test 2: Naked, only chaos, 20 claw mastery, still no venom

Test 3: Naked, only chaos, 20 claw mastery, 20 venom

Test 4: Huff Naked 20 venom, 20 Claw mastery, then equipt 50% bramble & 25% Trangs gloves for hitting.

Test 5: Huff venom with 50% bramble & 25% trangs gloves, then remove and hit naked with only chaos, 20 claw mastery, 20 venom

Test 6: Huff & hit with 50% bramble & 25% trangs, 20 claw mastery, 20 venom.

-------

After these are done, I could also throw fury into the mix to see how that stacks up, but for now I'm only really interested in the ones I've listed above.. if you guys can think of anything else .. or something I've forgotton .. let me know..

EDIT: Actually, I just thought of another..

Huff with 50% bramble + 25% trangs, then equipt a +15/-15 nats to hit. .. just to see how the -xx% affects the damage as opposed to the extra +35 from using bramble.

[Speederländer]

Ya, that's insane .. especially since that damage could be done basically naked with a malice claw. True it's over time, however, it's sick how fast the barb's life was falling. Although I only tested 20 hits every single time I managed to hit twice in a single whirlwind open wounds was triggered. Going by that, and assumeing you're going to hit like 4 times or so when you whirl through someone, depending on AR etc. of course, with the combined 91% chance of open wounds you're pertty much going to trigger open wounds on each whirl through. I believe that OW dosen't add together if it's on 2 weapons, but even with the 66% then the 25% .. still assumeing 4 hits .. your chances of triggering it on a single whirl are pretty damn good.

I'm really anxious to do some more of these tests .. probably tommorow night .. here are the different ones I will be doing:

----------

Test 2: Naked, only chaos, 20 claw mastery, still no venom

Test 3: Naked, only chaos, 20 claw mastery, 20 venom

Test 4: Huff Naked 20 venom, 20 Claw mastery, then equipt 50% bramble & 25% Trangs gloves for hitting.

Test 5: Huff venom with 50% bramble & 25% trangs gloves, then remove and hit naked with only chaos, 20 claw mastery, 20 venom

Test 6: Huff & hit with 50% bramble & 25% trangs, 20 claw mastery, 20 venom.

-------

After these are done, I could also throw fury into the mix to see how that stacks up, but for now I'm only really interested in the ones I've listed above.. if you guys can think of anything else .. or something I've forgotton .. let me know..

EDIT: Actually, I just thought of another..

Huff with 50% bramble + 25% trangs, then equipt a +15/-15 nats to hit. .. just to see how the -xx% affects the damage as opposed to the extra +35 from using bramble.

Note D1ce's comments as to the double application of poison ED sources.

[ilkori]

Could you break out the venom a bit more? It's the venom that is currently suspected of exceeeding caps (but it could be something else). Is that bramble venom with trangs and some facets? Assume enough stacked res to offset just 2 or 3 facets, as I always have good stacked res yet still get shlocked good.Sure, the venom damage I did was starting assuming a flat 3k venom from the level 36-37ish skill (from skill planner). Then I assumed perfect bramble + trangs, with double application. Here are the venom calculations:Venom (Over 0.4 seconds)
Level Base Cast +% Hit +% Final Damage
20 435 75 75 1332.19
30 735 75 75 2250.94
35 910 75 75 2786.88
40 1085 75 75 3322.81
45 1260 75 75 3858.75
50 1435 75 75 4394.69
That final damage is over the .4 seconds, and I converted it to damage/frame for the other calculations.

[squigipapa]

@Ilkori: So, in theory, if venom does fall under the standard 1/6 PvP Penalty, the 'Final damage you list should be divided by 6 right? So it would look like:

Lvl 20 - 232 - After 75% Resistance: 58
Lvl 30 - 375 - After 75% Resistance: 93
Lvl 35 - 464 - After 75% Resistance: 116
Lvl 40 - 531 - After 75% Resistance: 132
Lvl 45 - 643 - After 75% Resistance: 160
Lvl 50 - 732 - After 75% Resistance: 183

*Calculations rounded down.

So, lets take the highest damage from my tests, Hit #2: 240 dmg, where critical strike probably triggered. This was a single hit from a ww. Let's add in a standard lvl 35 venom, that becomes 240+464=704. So that's 704 PvP damage, if the opponent has 0 poison resistance. without anything else yet. so adding in Crushing Blow, and the host of other mods that a typical sin wears.. this is insane.

Let's assume Whirlwinding through someone and hitting 4 times, wearing only a chaos claw (Like my test above), Let's also assume that Crit. triggers every hit. That would be 240*4=960, that's 960 PvP damage WITHOUT Venom, Add in 4 shots of Ilk's Lvl 35 Venom, 464*4=1856,

So let's say you huff level 35 venom, and you're using only a chaos claw Like I was above, you then whirlwind through someone, hitting them 4 times, and critical triggers every time, and you do max venom damage every time. that's 1856+960=2816.

This is damage after the PvP penalties are taken into consideration. With this, it's no wonder why a sin can take out another character on a single pass. Of course this is with 0 resistance/damage reduction/psn length reduction etc. With 75% psn resistance, a single venom application of level 35 venom would do ~116, so let's say we replace the 464*4 with 116*4=464(+960=1424) .. 1424 PvP Damage with only a chaos and pre-huffed level 35 venom (assumeing crit each hit and 4 hits) ..

Ok, so if these numbers are right .. or even close, I'm starting to see .. if you see any problems with the calculations above .. please let me know.. I suck at math .. so it woulden't surprise me .. :)

[Groovehawg]

I think a lot of folks underestimate the non-venom damage potential of ww sins. I got a single player sin of mine up to 2.7K+ display damage without venom or enchant, it was all physical/magic. She had 63% chance of deadly strike, 25-ish% chance of critical strike from claw mastery, 60% crushing blow and 45% open wounds. With a successful DS/CS check (around 70% chance total), that's a heck of a lot of base damage even considering the pvp penalty and full DR reduction-around 450. Then add CB/OW every other hit for even more damage.

[Speederländer]

@Ilkori: So, in theory, if venom does fall under the standard 1/6 PvP Penalty, the 'Final damage you list should be divided by 6 right? So it would look like:

Lvl 20 - 232 - After 75% Resistance: 58
Lvl 30 - 375 - After 75% Resistance: 93
Lvl 35 - 464 - After 75% Resistance: 116
Lvl 40 - 531 - After 75% Resistance: 132
Lvl 45 - 643 - After 75% Resistance: 160
Lvl 50 - 732 - After 75% Resistance: 183

*Calculations rounded down.

So, lets take the highest damage from my tests, Hit #2: 240 dmg, where critical strike probably triggered. This was a single hit from a ww. Let's add in a standard lvl 35 venom, that becomes 240+464=704. So that's 704 PvP damage, if the opponent has 0 poison resistance. without anything else yet. so adding in Crushing Blow, and the host of other mods that a typical sin wears.. this is insane.

Let's assume Whirlwinding through someone and hitting 4 times, wearing only a chaos claw (Like my test above), Let's also assume that Crit. triggers every hit. That would be 240*4=960, that's 960 PvP damage WITHOUT Venom, Add in 4 shots of Ilk's Lvl 35 Venom, 464*4=1856,

So let's say you huff level 35 venom, and you're using only a chaos claw Like I was above, you then whirlwind through someone, hitting them 4 times, and critical triggers every time, and you do max venom damage every time. that's 1856+960=2816.

This is damage after the PvP penalties are taken into consideration. With this, it's no wonder why a sin can take out another character on a single pass. Of course this is with 0 resistance/damage reduction/psn length reduction etc. With 75% psn resistance, a single venom application of level 35 venom would do ~116, so let's say we replace the 464*4 with 116*4=464(+960=1424) .. 1424 PvP Damage with only a chaos and pre-huffed level 35 venom (assumeing crit each hit and 4 hits) ..

Ok, so if these numbers are right .. or even close, I'm starting to see .. if you see any problems with the calculations above .. please let me know.. I suck at math .. so it woulden't surprise me .. :)

But minus the venom, barbs should have much greater capacity since they have much more powerful weapons potentially.

[Speederländer]

From the posts I have seen in the last 24 hours, I am convinced it's the venom that is the real killer. Two new pieces of info (at least to me) have now come out:

1. Poison ED sources get counted twice for venom, once when buffing, then again when the damage is applied. With bramble, trangs, and facets that's some major damage damage boosting.

2. There is an unlisted -100% PLR penalty in hell (source: brianc84 - http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=228702&page=2 ). This means that (correct me if I'm wrong) a 400 psn damage venom over .4 seconds is actually 800 damage over .8 seconds?

I am not sold on the second point yet. This REALLY needs to be checked.

[squigipapa]

But minus the venom, barbs should have much greater capacity since they have much more powerful weapons potentially.

Agreed. As well, a much higher level of whirlwind. All of my testing was done with a base (level 1) whirlwind. At the very least these tests should show us the most effective way to use the skill. Whether it's huff with as much +poison skill damage as possible then swap out.. or huff with the highest level venom possible etc. etc. etc. I'm anxious to see whether the +35 poison skill damage from bramble .. outweighs the -15 enemy poison ressstance from a 3 facet nat's. However, I'm simply talking venom damage here, there are of course other benifits from nats, mainly +2 to claw mastery(more dmg/more AR), +2 weapon block, resistance etc.

Were my calculations above correct? as far as you can see? just so I know if I'm on the right track while trying to break these numbers down. I'll post each test in a seperate reply, then when they're all done I'll combine them and create a full document with all the results to post .. so it's easier to read.

Thanks
Squigi.

[Speederländer]

Agreed. As well, a much higher level of whirlwind. All of my testing was done with a base (level 1) whirlwind. At the very least these tests should show us the most effective way to use the skill. Whether it's huff with as much +poison skill damage as possible then swap out.. or huff with the highest level venom possible etc. etc. etc. I'm anxious to see whether the +35 poison skill damage from bramble .. outweighs the -15 enemy poison ressstance from a 3 facet nat's. However, I'm simply talking venom damage here, there are of course other benifits from nats, mainly +2 to claw mastery(more dmg/more AR), +2 weapon block, resistance etc.

Were my calculations above correct? as far as you can see? just so I know if I'm on the right track while trying to break these numbers down. I'll post each test in a seperate reply, then when they're all done I'll combine them and create a full document with all the results to post .. so it's easier to read.

Thanks
Squigi.

The two recently advanced points about venom that I list one post up should be checked post haste I think. They would go a long way to explaining what seems to be excessive damage. Perhaps with a 1-4 damage dagger, in hell, then in norm. Checking first the PLR penalty, then do it with the bramble/trangs to see if the ED gets counted twice as claimed.

I'll check over your calcs and see if anything jumps out at me as odd.

[Groovehawg]

All other things being the same, you have a higher damage output with a 3 socketed nats than bramble against an opponent with just 75% poison resist.

Assume 2k poison damage:
With 3 socket nats 2k becomes 2.3k
1/6 pvp penalty=383
60 resists (75 base -15 from the facets)=153
We'll assume no PLR, so final damage is 306

With 50 bramble 2k becomes 3k
1/6 pvp penalty=500
75 resists=125
final damage is 250

The lower your opponents base resists, the better the bramble.

[squigipapa]

The two recently advanced points about venom that I list one post up should be checked post haste I think. They would go a long way to explaining what seems to be excessive damage. Perhaps with a 1-4 damage dagger, in hell, then in norm. Checking first the PLR penalty, then do it with the bramble/trangs to see if the ED gets counted twice as claimed.

I'll check over your calcs and see if anything jumps out at me as odd.

Actually, since I want to test this primarly with whirlwind, and I'm doing the testing using my 2 computers and a lan based ip game. I could use zonfire to edit the chaos claw, zero out the magic damage, zero out the enhanced damage, remove the 25% open wounds... basically take the claw down to base item damage, with +1 whirlwind & the correct base speed + IAS that's on the chaos. I could also remove the 1 point from claw mastery giving no chance of critical strike .. so basically this would leave me with a small base damage of the claw, and whirlwind at the correct speed. I woulden't have to worry about any other mods kicking in and messing up the damage.

[ilkori]

@Groovehawg, what were your damage and ED sources to get your damage that high? I've been running some calculations, and I just plain can't get them to run that high. How many +max charms were you using?

@Squigipapa, those numbers look more or less correct, but consider this: You are assuming that it takes a full 0.4 seconds (10 frames) between every one of those hits in order to count the full venom damage.

That was the reason I listed venom and open wounds by damage/frame (or second if you prefer). If you hit with every blow (ww is 4 frames for both hits) then you will be doing a constant rate of damage the entire time, then adding on the full amount at the end, that would be more accurate. The bottom line of it is this: Venom does a lot of damage after all the PvP penalties.

One minor detail - I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think the PvP penalty is a multiplication of 0.17 rather than dividing by 6. This is a minor detail, and I'm not sure about it (the two are close, 1/6 is approx. 0.16667).

amend:
@Speederländer - I'm inclined to agree that venom is the major source of PvP damage - but this doesn't mean it should be the only focus. The reason I think WW barbs don't do as well is with the blocking% If you block 75% of the incoming attacks, then venom damage will still be working the full time, while all direct damage sources will have an effective 1/4 reduction.

[Speederländer]

If you block 75% of the incoming attacks, then venom damage will still be working the full time, while all direct damage sources will have an effective 1/4 reduction.

Since venom has an almost instantaneous duration, you can't say that its effectiveness isn't reduced, at least somewhat, by blocking. It depends on how fast the hits from ww would have occured in the first place.

Also, there is the claim now going around that hell has an inherent -100% PLR penalty associated with it. This would work in favor of your argument more than mine and needs to be verified.

[ilkori]

Think about it, ignoring any sources of PLR or the -100% penalty, there is a 10 frame period for a venom attack. WW will have a 2-frame attack on any decent WWer. This means that getting the expected value of 1 hit out of every four, you will hit once every 8 frames. This allows a 2-frame overlap of venom duration, meaning they will be poisoned almost the entire time (unless you happen to miss more than that). Against Barbs and Pallys you'd have to reduce that number even more because their defence is so insane.

[Speederländer]

Think about it, ignoring any sources of PLR or the -100% penalty, there is a 10 frame period for a venom attack. WW will have a 2-frame attack on any decent WWer. This means that getting the expected value of 1 hit out of every four, you will hit once every 8 frames. This allows a 2-frame overlap of venom duration, meaning they will be poisoned almost the entire time (unless you happen to miss more than that). Against Barbs and Pallys you'd have to reduce that number even more because their defence is so insane.

But if you hit 4 times in a ww pass, and 3 are blocked, then you have to include the time to get another pass happening. You won't have a continuous WW going. Also, you are right about the defense, but you have to include the fact that even against 2K defense casters, your chance to hit is still like 70% to 80% for most WW sins. This further drops the total number of hits that will be landed.

In any event, I agree that venom is a major damage source, much more than I believed previously. But I now feel this way because of the facts about double ED and the hidden PLR penalty that I was not previously aware of.

[ilkori]

In any event, I agree that venom is a major damage source, much more than I believed previously. But I now feel this way because of the facts about double ED and the hidden PLR penalty that I was not previously aware of.Agreed.your chance to hit is still like 70% to 80% for most WW sins. This further drops the total number of hits that will be landed.Yes, but adding the PLR Hell penalty you get an even bigger penalty. It's a minor technicality that most people won't even notice. The final PvP damage isn't much to bother about over 2ish frames considering the other sources of damage.

[Groovehawg]

Ilkori-

Keep in mind, this was modded in single player, so I had complete access to high end items, but it's all legit equipment. Base strength build, enough dex for max blocking with stormshield, rest into vitality. High ED chaos, Enigma breastplate, ED/min jeweled Guillaumes, ED/min jeweled Stormshield, highlords, high ED steelrends, crafted bloodbelt (10 OW)with high strength, a raven and a utility ring (resists, etc.), high stat anni, x10 10 max/high ar/life grand charms. Remaining inventory slots for whatever-resists, more ar, etc.

Lost a bit of damage going dual claw (x2 chaos, or jade when needed), just because I used the strength bonus in the storm to wield the rends, but it was still in the 2.3-2.4k range, iirc.

I scratched my head trying to get a 3K display, but could never get there, even after dropping more points into str/dex.

[ilkori]

Wow, that's dedication to damage! It also adds another build that should work with WW - double the physical damage would make up for venom damage, and wouldn't be resistable. Doing a max poison route will work also... but with enough PLR/resists, it'd flop.

[squigipapa]

Hey guys, I just finished my testing. I did 7 tests in total with 20 whirlwind passes per test.

Test #1: Baseline test - No claw mastery, No venom, No equiptment other than chaos

Test #2: Benifits of Claw Mastery - 20 Claw mastery, No Venom, No equiptment other than chaos

Test #3: Benifits of Claw Mast. & Venom - 20 CM, 20 Ven. No equiptment other than Chaos

Test #4: Benifits of +xx% to Poison Skill Damage on Pre-Huff Only. Huff with 50% bramble & 25% trangs, then remove and attack with only chaos, 20 CM, 20 Venom.

Test #5: Benifits of +xx% to poison skill damage on attack only. Huff naked with lvl 20 venom, then put on 50% bramble and 25% trangs to attack. I found this test to be invalid, it's exactly the same damage displayed as when doing test #4

Test #6: The enchant bug - Basically between test 4 and this one to determine if in fact the +xx% psn skill damage is calculated twice, once at huff and also on attack.. There is no doubt that it is .. for sure. So in this test I would huff and attack while wearing 50% bramble and 25% trangs.

Test #7: Bramble or 3 facet nats: From the results of test 4 I know having +% psn skill dmg while huffing helps, from test number 6 .. I know wearing it helps again. This test is to find out whether the extra +35% from bramble would outweigh the -15% from a 3 facet nats. So in this test I would huff with bramble and trangs, then attack with a 3 facet nats..

I have all the results .. however, it's like 7 pages of raw data, so I'm gonna need some time to type it all up, (It's handwritten right now) ...

Just from quickly looking over the numbers, it seems that the most effective thing to do is to huff with bramble then switch to nats for fighting. But it's not by much. Infact, I would be inclined to guess that the little more damage I'm seeing while wearing nats can mostly be attribuated to the +2 shadow diciplins (extra damage from claw mastery, higher chance for critical strike) .. but I'll let you guys be the judge once I post it up..

For now .. I'm going to bed.. :) .. OH, but there is definitly a PvP penality.. no question about it .. however, it almost seems like 1/3, because of the +psn skill damage being added twice. .. anyway .. Homer sleep now.. zzzzzzz

[ilkori]

Awesome work - I wouldn't mind seeing it when you're done. ^_^