the use of magic arrow

[Sjefke]

so, a friend of mine told me to pump magic arrow to 13 or at least 8 (with mana leech) but i'm beginning to think i might have put them in a better place...

so tell me, is the magic arrow that usefull?

[det]

Yeah..It can be useful...there is even a guide around here for a Sniperzon IIRC that uses 20 MA. I think you need a powerful bow though, as only 20% is converted into Magic damage (of your physical damage) So it is a "cheap" way to kill PI's.

Other ways around this:

Witchwild String bow fires lv 20 MA for free. :D

Items with Amp charges (or chance to cast amp) remove PI - no need for MA anymore

If you plan on playing a FA or Imo zon however, I would not invest in MA at all

[Fritos-crunch]

It is in my opinion that your friend tricked you into putting those points into ma and you are now screwed...so sorry...get better friends

[Aristanna]

If you're a pure physical damage bowazon with no way to cast Amplify Damage, then Magic Arrow can be very useful for dealing with physical immunes, as someone has mentioned above.

From what I've seen, dual-immune Fire/Physical and Cold/Physical monsters are more commonly found than Magic/Physical. MA can deal with both FI/PI and CI/PI so it is more versatile if you are looking for a way to deal with immunities in general, whereas with fire or cold you will still need another damage type if you come across a FI/PI or CI/PI. Of course, if you only plan to play normal/nightmare and not much of hell, dual immunities won't be as much of a concern, so MA won't be as useful.

[Sjefke]

thnx for the advice :)

and planning on going to Hell :) zo prolly need it :D

[Bowamzn]

Hate to tell you, buddy, but you should start over. It's not hard to get ahold of an Atma's amulet -- if you're a bow amazon, you should anyway -- or even a wand with AD charges, and when you have something, it completely negates the need for a PI-killer skill.

When you're level 70+ and your amazon is dying all the time, or you're doing half the GA damage or strafe damage you should be, you'll really wish you had those points back.

[XZON]

Hate to tell you, buddy, but you should start over. It's not hard to get ahold of an Atma's amulet -- if you're a bow amazon, you should anyway -- or even a wand with AD charges, and when you have something, it completely negates the need for a PI-killer skill.

When you're level 70+ and your amazon is dying all the time, or you're doing half the GA damage or strafe damage you should be, you'll really wish you had those points back.

This guy has no idea what he is talking about. First of all, Guided should not have more that 1 skill point placed into it. What the heck do you need it for? It may have been great when it pierced but now, useless. Strafe for boss's is fine. Magic arrow is an awesome PI killer. You do not want to depend on amp damage to break immunities as it will not break them all. Amp is great for a straffer as when it does kick, you will kill any group much faster, but it should not be your only way of killing PI's. In addition, I fail to see how 20 points in guided will do twice the damage of 1 point in guided. Skill damage bonus's are actually calculated in the same point of the damage equation as dexterity bonus, meaning 19 extra skill points will give 95% of base damage of the weapon as a bonus. On a Windforce, this will be around 60 to minimum & 450 to maximum (no where near double that which you should be getting from windforce). My normal attack with windforce is arround 3,000 maximum physical only. Point being, to waste 19 additional skill points in guided (which you will never use) for an additional 500 max damage would be dumb when you would be without a PI killer that you can count on. The only time that I was using guided was against Dclone & I found that I killed him quicker with Strafe as the amp casts much more often. I have not used guided since, even once.

By the way, have you ever used the WWS against the PI ghosts in the forgotten tower (countess) in hell? Level 20 magic arrow (20% of Physical converted to magic) from a bow that puts out reletively low base damage & yet it still kills them very quickly. How about a PI with Stone skin? Amp can't break those but the WWS's magic arrow kills them supprisingly fast. Now convert 20 or more (plus skills items) % of physical damage to magic damage from a powerfull bow such as windforce & you will make quick work of any PI. Plus adds damage & attack rating. Sorry I am rambling but this skill is a perfect compliment to a strafe with a WF.

Yesterday, my level 40 straffer in ladder 2 with absolute garbage gear was soloing normal baal. Valk, strafe (level 12)...Valk strafe and so on. Was taking forever. Switched to level 1 guided, same story. Switched to magic arrow (level 13) left click, valk right & killed him twice as fast. I do not have any amp to help strafe but I was still supprised how fast magic arrow took him down. I guess even normal baal must have some physical resistance.

edit: sorry for blasting you bowamzn but I don't think you have tried enough variations of amazons since 1.10 or you would not tell him to start over. Give it a shot & for gods sake, stop using guided or at least putting points in that damn skill.

[StormFury]

You know you are wrong for a pvp player XZON. for pvp the most effective skill is GA!

[det]

Where did Sjefke say he plays PvP?

[XZON]

Thanks Det. A PvP build for an Amazon is completely different than PvM. I would assume PvM unless specified otherwise. Plus I was responding to Bowamzn who was obviously talking about PvM unless he is the only dueler who chose strafe/guided over multi/guided. Now where exactly am I wrong StormFury?

[StormFury]

Sorry XZON i miss read it i wasnt sure which were you talking about pvp or pvm. Sorry

[Bowamzn]

edit: sorry for blasting you bowamzn but I don't think you have tried enough variations of amazons since 1.10 or you would not tell him to start over. Give it a shot & for gods sake, stop using guided or at least putting points in that damn skill.

Didn't notice this until now. Sorry for the late bump. First, before I even start responding -- I don't know if you did it on purpose, but you come across as very insulting and condescending. Feel free to disagree with me, always, but there's no cause to be nasty about it.

On to the subject:
My level 85 using decent but not fantastic gear, using only guided and multishot as combat skills (I have no idea where you got the impression that I used Strafe), can solo any area on any difficulty. I've soloed DClone w/ her, ONLY using guided. Sure, amp damage might not break 100% of the PIs, but I don't remember running into one that it wouldn't.

Based on my experience alone, I'm pretty sure that guided isn't "useless." Strafe might be better, which is why I suggested he put the points into guided OR -- not and -- strafe, rather than magic arrow. I chose to save 19 skill points rather than boosting a skill I'd use on like one tenth of one percent of the monsters in the game.

I haven't played an amazon in any version EXCEPT 1.1, so that assumption of yours is completely unfounded. I've played a ga/ms, a strafer, a mageazon, and about half a dozen combinations and variations of those (fire/physical, fire/ice, ice/fire, etc etc), and I've used, at some point, every bow in the game -- so I think I'm doing okay on variations, as far as bow amazons go.

I've been told guided was ridiculously powerful in earlier versions -- sure, okay. Just because it was more powerful then doesn't mean it sucks now.

Thanks Det. A PvP build for an Amazon is completely different than PvM. I would assume PvM unless specified otherwise. Plus I was responding to Bowamzn who was obviously talking about PvM unless he is the only dueler who chose strafe/guided over multi/guided. Now where exactly am I wrong StormFury?

Oh, and I'm not StormFury, but you're wrong right there -- I didn't choose strafe/guided over multi/guided.

OR. Not AND. It'll help your argument if you actually pay attention to what I write.

[XZON]

bowamzn- I re-read my post & I was a little harsh I guess. Sorry. It was the "hate to tell you this buddy, but you should start over" part. I think that was a bit harsh. It really makes no sense for him to do this. Magic arrow is a great PI killer & more points actually make a big difference.

I have used guided to kill dclone and strafe & honestly, strafe was quicker with goreriders kicking crushing blow more often. I really don't see the need to waste points in this skill (guided) unless you want to PvP (multi/guided makes a lot of sense). Even if you like to use guided, the extra points only add 5% of base bow damage which will not double your total guided damage (not even close). This skill works fine with 1 point in it.

I have found that when building a straffer, I tend to have lots of extra skill points. I end up getting my valk to like level 22 or more & then end up putting them into skills that give me severely diminished returns (you know d/a/e at 2% increase per level). If your gonna put any points in magic arrow, put a bunch.

Oh, I know that you are not stormfury. Didn't get that. I did assume that you use strafe / guided based on your saying that the original poster would regret when they were doing 1/2 the strafe or guided damage that they could. The original poster never mentioned any skill besides magic arrow, however you did. I think that was an obvious assumption on my part although apparently incorrect that you were using strafe (and of course guided). Weren't you also assuming that the original poster was using strafe?

Seems to me that we should both pay attention to what people write. (or stop making assumptions)

By the way, the last sentence of your response was a bit insulting, don't you think?

One more thing, I have a windforce strafer with level 23 strafe & magic arrow which absolutely rocks. No amp damage & with a might merc I have no problems but that magic arrow sure comes in handy when my merc can't break the PI. I am glad that I did not start over.

[FrustratedNecro9500]

since u guys are obviously zon vets and im new to them, what do u think of my situation here...basically i have a zon hybrid that is maxed FA, cold arrow, and LF. the one thing i wasnt anticipating was that there are less physical immunes than elemental immunes, so i am running into a decent amount of lightning AND cold immunes, especially when im pit running. my runs usually go pretty slow, cuz even with cold and freezing arrow maxed, its taking a decent amount of time to kill hell lightning immunes with freezing arrow. so far, my backup is guided arrow, which i have about 10 points in, and its not very effective. it kills, but it takes time. i have 1 pt in strafe right now, and about 7 in penetrate, a few in valk. the 1 pt in strafe was intentded to leech back mana, and right now im using a lycanders aim, but its using as much mana when i fire it as im leeching back, so its not working out real well. i have about 3 pts in crit strike, but with lycanders and a few other items i think its effectively at around level 8 or 9. i have around 200% mf, which is what i wanted to use this character for, but other than LF, her other attacks just arent effective. i use a might merc by the way.

also, i found a perf WWS today in nightmare act 3, which i intend to upgrade. im thinking i should stick to my lycanders since it has IAS, mana leech, and + skills. should i go back to the drawing board or what?

[XZON]

since u guys are obviously zon vets and im new to them, what do u think of my situation here...basically i have a zon hybrid that is maxed FA, cold arrow, and LF. the one thing i wasnt anticipating was that there are less physical immunes than elemental immunes, so i am running into a decent amount of lightning AND cold immunes, especially when im pit running. my runs usually go pretty slow, cuz even with cold and freezing arrow maxed, its taking a decent amount of time to kill hell lightning immunes with freezing arrow. so far, my backup is guided arrow, which i have about 10 points in, and its not very effective. it kills, but it takes time. i have 1 pt in strafe right now, and about 7 in penetrate, a few in valk. the 1 pt in strafe was intentded to leech back mana, and right now im using a lycanders aim, but its using as much mana when i fire it as im leeching back, so its not working out real well. i have about 3 pts in crit strike, but with lycanders and a few other items i think its effectively at around level 8 or 9. i have around 200% mf, which is what i wanted to use this character for, but other than LF, her other attacks just arent effective. i use a might merc by the way.

also, i found a perf WWS today in nightmare act 3, which i intend to upgrade. im thinking i should stick to my lycanders since it has IAS, mana leech, and + skills. should i go back to the drawing board or what?

To be perfectly honest, I have absolutely no experience with hybrids. I did notice a few things though...

I am pretty sure that a hybrid would want to use strafe as the secondary skill. It requires very few skill points to be effective. The additional points add very little to the damage & really only increase the number of arrows fired.

Guided also adds to damage as level increases (more than strafe does due to the 75% penalty for strafe) but is really only effective against single enemies. The damage increase is only on base weapon so at level 10 the increase is equal to 50 additional dex points. Not worth the skills points IMO.

Lycanders is an excellent bow for an elemental based zon but for strafe, upped WWS or Wind Force would be better.

Also a few points in valk is not such a good idea. She will die often & of course you can recast but you already have mana problems. She will not deal much damage at that level. If you're gonna put even 1 point in Valk, then get her up to 17 as she gets a unique (or rare) pike at that level & deals some nice damage. She will also last much longer.

Hate to say it but it might be best to start over. Your lighting should be your main killing skill & strafe with WWS should take care of the rest. You could set magic arrow to left click & strafe to right. An upped WWS kills awefully fast in the pits with 86% Ias.

Remember that leech is based on percentage of physical damage only. Lycanders is a low physical damage bow so you will need a high% leech to be effective with that bow (probably 15% or more).

I think that you are blending a freezing/straffer & a LF/straffer & maybe spreading yourself a little thin.

[FrustratedNecro9500]

I think that you are blending a freezing/straffer & a LF/straffer & maybe spreading yourself a little thin.

i was afraid of that, just wanted to try something different, probably the same reason i keep toying with a plague jav zon.

the idea behind my zon was to have lightning and cold be the primary damage sources. leeching i guess i can deal with, just use mana pots like crazy, or maybe some + to mana for each kill equipment. its the lack of killing speed thats irking me more than anything. and neither of my main skills, FA or LF, are effective against 1 tough monster. but then again im mostly pit running, where all the monsters are immune to either cold or lighting, or in the case of uniques, sometimes both. however, being that shes level 83, id hate to can her now. originally i intended for her to MF, but maybe i can just rethink her equipment and make her a rune/charm runner instead. so maybe i can save her if i change her equipment around and make her a rune/charm finder instead like this:

helm - nightwings veil (dont have yet but maybe i can trade for it)

weapons - Lycanders aim/titans (no change)

armor - no idea at all...maybe one of the unique that comes with sockets and
put some IAS jewels in there or something. *shrug*

gloves - try to find something with + jav or bow skills and IAS

belt - razortail, since i dont have pierce maxed

boots - silkweave probably for the +5 mana per kill, have a pair but they're ethereal (of course)

the other option would to get m'avinas set if possible.

[majin-ant]

Well....I hate to say it, but I maxed GA and MS and it's not actually that bad. I own is NM and am quite good at killing in hell, and all I am using is a 189%ED Buriza socked with shael, and im lvl 82.

[XZON]

Well....I hate to say it, but I maxed GA and MS and it's not actually that bad. I own is NM and am quite good at killing in hell, and all I am using is a 189%ED Buriza socked with shael, and im lvl 82.

I have an upped buriza using zon that used multi & also killed quite well. By placing 19 additional points in guided you got 95% additional damage. For a buriza just look at your bows base damage & that is basically what was added to your total damage. While this may look like a lot on the character screen when compared to your multi damage, compare it to your normal attack damage & you will find that you spent 19 points in guided to get less than 100 to your minimum damage & around 350 to your maxed damage (non upgraded). That was 19 more points than was needed. Guided is nice for strong single enemies or boss's but would have been fine woth only 1 point in it & you would not have noticed that your kill speed dropped by much. Multi is a horrible skill vs 1 enemy as you will use more mana than you can possibly leech & you will get a 75% penalty for the 1 arrow that may hit the single enemy. I would also use guided in these situations.

Strafe negates the need for guided as all of the arrows will target a single enemy if that is all that is left. You could still use guided for those situations but It would be best to only use 1 skill point in it again.

PvP you want every little bit of damage that you can muster & is the only time that I would recommend maxing guided arrow.

[FrustratedNecro9500]

I have an upped buriza using zon that used multi & also killed quite well. By placing 19 additional points in guided you got 95% additional damage. For a buriza just look at your bows base damage & that is basically what was added to your total damage. While this may look like a lot on the character screen when compared to your multi damage, compare it to your normal attack damage & you will find that you spent 19 points in guided to get less than 100 to your minimum damage & around 350 to your maxed damage (non upgraded). That was 19 more points than was needed. Guided is nice for strong single enemies or boss's but would have been fine woth only 1 point in it & you would not have noticed that your kill speed dropped by much. Multi is a horrible skill vs 1 enemy as you will use more mana than you can possibly leech & you will get a 75% penalty for the 1 arrow that may hit the single enemy. I would also use guided in these situations.

Strafe negates the need for guided as all of the arrows will target a single enemy if that is all that is left. You could still use guided for those situations but It would be best to only use 1 skill point in it again.

PvP you want every little bit of damage that you can muster & is the only time that I would recommend maxing guided arrow.

True, but so far what i have noticed is multi is better for crowds/lots of enemies. this is because strafe isnt great at hitting moving targets, it seems to fire where the monster was just a split second before. so, until the monsters are still, strafe doesnt work near as well.

[XZON]

True, but so far what i have noticed is multi is better for crowds/lots of enemies. this is because strafe isnt great at hitting moving targets, it seems to fire where the monster was just a split second before. so, until the monsters are still, strafe doesnt work near as well.

I loved my burizon with multi & I agree, Strafe can be tough in wide open areas like bloody foothills & such. The great thing about the enemy AI is that they tend to group attack the nearest character / minion. If played well, your bowazon can force the enemies to group around your valkerie / mercenary & then strafe will mow them down. Also remember that only 1 arrow from any multi volley can hit a single enemy. One area that this makes a big difference is the end of the flayer jungle going into lower kurast. There are like 7 Big tree guys that take a lot of arrows to kill. Strafe wipes them out in about 3 seconds & multi takes much longer. You will probably lose your merc against them even if he has uber gear. It takes a lot of practice to get good at grouping enemies, but once you do, I am pretty sure that you will find that strafe kills quicker.

I am really not trying to argue strafe -vs- multi as to each his own. I think the point that I was trying to get across is that if you need to use guided once in a while, spend 1 point in it & do not max it. Your skill points would serve you better somewhere else (valk, dodge, evade, avoid, strafe/multi, penetrate, critical strike, peirce, magic arrow etc. etc.)