Charged strike =? melee?

[Alexsc25]

I play a wolf barb on east ladder, so far I have not lost a single melee duel. What really annoys me, beside smiters/wwers saying they are melee, is charged strike zons. Smite is not melee because it has no ar/uses a shield. WW is not melee because you are moving/aoe attack.

How about charged strike? I am not complaining too much about it being too strong, I have 3 open sockets and they can all recieve an um rune and in hell I would have about 20 or so lit overkill, enough to slaughter lit zons. However, if I am to shael the gear to gain additional fhr, the zons give trouble because of their huge ALWAYS hitting elemental damage. Wasting 6 charm slots to resist them is always possible, but thats 500~ or so life...

My point is that the bolts always hit and in hell, where most pubby duels are conducted, charged stike zons kill all of the melee thats designed to fight non elemental enemies with ease. Some go as lame as casting lower resist on you from switches...

Don't get me wrong, If I switch equip/ask for nightmare duel, I beat them easily.. Just its so annoying to see elemental zons go in melee only duels and take advantage of -100(70) resis.

[xxsteelxx]

Just wonderin why it matters? After all ..most uf u guys play sc..so who cares if u lose

[mepersoner]

Just wonderin why it matters? After all ..most uf u guys play sc..so who cares if u lose
Yeah, and it's just a game, who cares if you die in hardcore.

[LLD-Vampire]

Steel stop going through your anti soft core phase (every person who ever made a hardcore char does). All you do is ***** and whine about how softcore players are pussys.

If I ever saw a hardcore player who was in a duel about to lose that DIDN'T leave or run I would be amazed. You hardcore players are sissys you don't finnish duels because you don't want to lose your little char. Get over it and stop *****ing at people who don't play hardcore.

[Alexsc25]

Its nice of you to reply, but noone has adressed the issue which I brought up in here! I was asking on your thoughts.. because CS works like itg with its elemental damage...

[Mule]

It's impossible to address the question, your definition of melee is screwed already. According to your own personal definition, CS wouldn't be melee, so it's rather pointless to answer.

[Alexsc25]

What is melee then? From my point of view my defenition is not screwed up... Why do you think its messed up?

[Diabolico x64]

What is melee? Melee is fighting someone up-close, as opposed to at a range. Chance of hitting that person or elemental damage has nothing to do with it. I don't understand how AR could have something to do with melee fighting.

Smite and WW are both melee, as is CS. In all three cases, you are actually coming up to the person, and hitting him, up-close. People don't stand at a far edge of the screen and hurt their opponents with those attacks. Therefore, they are all melee.

Besides that, the game itself is programmed to think that all three of those attacks are melee, and that should be reaosn enough not to debate this. You can test this out by using these attacks while you have IM on you.

People constantly think that attacks that their duelers can't withstand are always unfair, so they group them into a different category by themselves, outside of "melee" and "ranged". Are you going to tell me that Charge and Fire Claws aren't melee?

[Alexsc25]

It has been an unspoken rule in dueling games forever that both ww and smite are considered not melee. WW makes killing the smart ww'e with any other non ww melee character practicaly impossible, since the target is moving and you miss a lot of attacks due to that. Smite is itg, knockback, and If you have ever dueled in melee dueling games people STROGLY strongly oppose smite. Even according to CH's rules ww is mid ranged, I quote
MID RANGE (effective range of one screen or less but not melee)
...
ii. WW sins
iii. WW barbs
AND (Added in edit)
iv. Charge Paladins
vi. Javazons
...
That concerns frw, but it still defines melee/non melee..
Charge = Runs in hits you runs out, repeats, you are either immobolized or get lucky hits on the charger, disregarding block/defence.
Smite is melee range, but not "melee"... I remember back in 09 going to palapk/1 with my smiter and telling people, I know I am not melee, but would anyone want to duel, and zealers dueling me. That was way back when, and palapk/1 use to be filled only with visiters of the dii paladin forum.. And everyone there agreed smite != melee.

[xxsteelxx]

acctually i dont chicken and have lost quite a few duels in hc and no...it dosnt bother me in the least when i lose my char.....high lvl or not

[Diabolico x64]

You address what people think about those skills, but yet you do not mention why is it that people define those skills as "not melee".

I mean, if you're totally butchering the word itself already, why not use another word, like "dog" or "cat"? I'm not saying anything about how most people view the word "melee" in D2, but rather why that word is used, and not some other word.

I've also noticed that a lot of bnetters nowadays have absolutely no understanding of the word "melee" and use it however they wish. They call any and all attacks with any amount of elemental damage "not melee", and everything else, excluding smite/ww/charge, "melee".

[Alexsc25]

Because that's the word that is used.

And I did give reasons why I (and probably other people) do not consider them melee. Read my posts above fully...

WW because its aoe/moving target, therefore not "Stand and fight"
Smite because a shield is used and its ITG.
CS for the same ITG reason with the bolts (a bug).
Charge because it's hit and run.
You did not counter any of my points, you just went to the argument "Just because everyone agrees that those skills are not melee, it does not make them melee", which is silly. Fireclaw bears are definatly melee, they just do elemental damage, they use ar, etc. They have an advantage in hell, but are very managable in normal/nm/or in hell with charms.

Please, give imput not silly arguments about what melee means. We both know what it means if we have been dueling for some time, we both know slow is considered bm, although its build in the game, or will you argue about these things too?

Edit:
How about this defenition of melee combat:
An attack using a weapon in which both the target and the attacker are not moving. The attackers must use AR to hit their opponent.

This excludes ww/charge because of moving, smite because of ar, and I would like it to exclude cs because of the same ar issue.

Fireclaws/other elemental attacks that lock you in place are fine imho, it's just a matter of hell giving those attacks an advantage, and all dueling should be in nm :).

[mepersoner]

acctually i dont chicken and have lost quite a few duels in hc and no...it dosnt bother me in the least when i lose my char.....high lvl or not
So, alow me to get this straight, it doesn't matter when you lose a duel in softcore, it doesn't matter when you lose a duel in hardcore, correct?

I'm missing why I should take all the time to start over after losing my character.



It's melee. So is smite, so is whirlwind. What we have here is a not a "what is melee" question, but "what is fair and balanced in melee dueling". In that case, zealots shouldn't be allowed because they're A LOT stronger than other melee classes at this point, other than the ones you've claimed are not melee.

[aznbboi16]

He did give input on what he thinks. He thinks those skills are all melee.

He said WW/Smite/CS/Charge are all melee because you physically go up to the person and smack them with your weapon.
He's saying that is what melee means. There really is no reason that "melee" should take new meaning in D2.

If you ask me, those skills are all melee. You're next to the person when you hit them, and you're in melee range with your weapon. You aren't letting go of your weapon to hit.
Using a shield to hit shouldn't matter either. The shield is your weapon in this case.

It shouldn't matter if you're moving or not, since you have to move anyhow to get next to your opponent. If I ran up to you and attacked, that's just like charge, except it just wouldn't be as fast. You say charge is hit and run so it isn't melee, but if it weren't melee, there would be just the hit and no need to run.

ITD (I think you mean ITD when you say ITG btw) shouldn't really matter. To hit you, they have to be in range of your melee attack as well (say both of you had same range to make this easier). The bolts should be ITD anyhow, since the bolts themselves function like any other ranged spell. But you have to be in melee range to use the attack anyhow.
Maybe you could classify the ITD attacks as a different type of melee, but in definition, these attacks are all melee.
Meaning you physically hit the person with your weapon, which you hold in your hand, whether you're moving, or you automatically hit.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

In that case, zealots shouldn't be allowed because they're A LOT stronger than other melee classes at this point, other than the ones you've claimed are not melee.
Thats not really true. Zealots > wolves, but many melee are better than zealots. A dedicated conc barb is better, ww is better, smite is clearly better, cs is better, etc. Fury druids are just near the bottom of the pack of melee duelers because of weak defense.

I would like to see someone make a really good 1.10 bear (not fc, maul) and see if they could beat a pure fury wolf tho.

Garbad

[Phyrexial]

If they want to use something like use a CS zon in a melee game slap on Tgods and beat them until they cry. If they cry foulplay, point out that its certainly without their power to use DR gear (which they most certainly are) and can take several hits before they die, Tgods simply does the same for you against a different kind of attack. +max res = DR in this case. The amount of absorb granted by Tgods considering CS's damage isn't enough to negate the damage using Tgods alone so it seems fair to me.

The line between what is melee and what isn't is constantly changing, the only constant being that you must be at close range to use the attack and its not using a casted spell. (its not affected by fcr, etc) I've heard in the BvB community they've been having issues with OW/psn barbs too.

[Diabolico x64]

aznbboi16, thank you, that's exactly what I meant to argue.

Alexsc25, I'm not trying to argue what "melee" stands for in D2; I'm trying to argue as to why the word itself is used. The word itself, OUTSIDE of D2, means "fighting while standing up-close to each other". It does not say anything about AR. If WW/Smite/CS/Charge all fill this definition, then they are all obviously "melee".

However, some people may feel otherwise, because they are making up new D2-only meanings for this word.

[Alexsc25]

I see that the "standard" for melee is much different in all the b.net people I have met and dueled and this forum. And yes by ITG I meant ITD, Except ITG is another abriviation I use often (Will not tell what it is) so I typed ITG.
Garbad_the_Weak, What do you think about this debate.

I agree that the defenition of the word melee outside D2 is what you stated
aznbboi16 and mepersoner, however different meanings are given to a word in games. (Take smurfing in W3 for example).

Charge, If they start of with it and not run away charge again run away charge again, thats fine with me, they are most likely to miss the charge anyway.

So far, garbad, no zealer on ladder was able to beat my wolfbarb :), but then again I am not a druid and I have high defence.

Once again the way most ww'ers ww in vs other "melee" classes is taking advantage of their longer range and moving past you, not giving the other opponent a good chance of hitting them.

Also, Garbad, an exile/cta/draculs/botd(or similar) paladin seems to win against the most dedicated conc barb, at least from what I have seen from months of dueling. I understand those things are not allowed in the enviroment you duel in, so likely a conc barb will win that way.

[memememe173]

3 ways (IMO) of looking at it

definition: CS, smite, Charge and WW are all melee
my opinion: CS + smite = melee, Charge and WW (both are moving) are not
to make "melee" duel games balanced: CS is melee, nothing else is



and btw, how does hitting some one with your shield make any difference wether it's melee or not?

[Alexsc25]

It was just a defenition, there was no logic behind it.

What I dislike is if I put on tgods and max resist CS zons cry about absorb :(.

[Module88]

WW because its aoe/moving target, therefore not "Stand and fight"
Smite because a shield is used and its ITG.
CS for the same ITG reason with the bolts (a bug).
Charge because it's hit and run.


Some of this is utter crap. So, if you move at all, the attack is not melee? Just today I was dueling a fb sorc that called me a runner. What, did she expect me to stand still and see who has the best items? Just because your opponent can do a little more than click and hold a button doesn't mean it's not melee.

Smite because it uses a shield... So what? You are using a sword! Not quite sure what ITG is, all I know is ITB and ITD, which smite has. But with those advantages, it also loses a few thousand points in damage. It also attacks at 6 frames, which means you attack faster. I could whine and say zeal does more damage and hits faster, but that would be a pretty stupid arguement on my part too. All skills have their advantages and disadvantages, just like every class. As for smite, well, why was it melee in 09 and suddenly became ______ (anyone classify smite as anything if not melee?) in 1.1? Answer: because you actually need ar instead of using the eth bug, and you can no longer leech all of your life in two hits without life tap.

Not too fond of CS (as I don't play zons), but I don't whine about it in melee.

Actually, it's run and hit. You move toward your target don't you? How do you get in melee range if you don't? Charge just moves you faster, but you still have to be in range 1-5 to hit.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Garbad_the_Weak, What do you think about this debate.

Also, Garbad, an exile/cta/draculs/botd(or similar) paladin seems to win against the most dedicated conc barb, at least from what I have seen from months of dueling. I understand those things are not allowed in the enviroment you duel in, so likely a conc barb will win that way.
I really don't have an opinion. I think Mep hit in on the head, people are trying to twist the word "melee" into balance.

I generally won't turn down a duel vs a CS zon, but they are pretty overpowered. I have no qualms about reasonable absorb/max as a balancing tool. Then again, I also don't have a problem dueling smite/ww as "melee."

Exile/dracs I think are cheap because of the life tap, which makes melee duels pointless. If bliz would bring back leech, it would go a long way to balancing melee duels (elemetnal attackers would do more dmg, but no leech, lifetap, ow, and poi would be much less cheap because it could be countered).

On the wolfbarb, I admit my experience is a bit limited. Haven't dueled very many. Pure conc barbs I have seen win do so because of ultra high defense (40k+) and high life, sure they attack slower and may do less dmg, but the odds turn out ok.

Garbad

[Phyrexial]

Some of this is utter crap. So, if you move at all, the attack is not melee? Just today I was dueling a fb sorc that called me a runner. What, did she expect me to stand still and see who has the best items? Just because your opponent can do a little more than click and hold a button doesn't mean it's not melee.
Your example uses an fb sorc vs a melee character, of course you need to run and move around (both of you). However, for the purposes of melee vs melee it is generally just click and hold, sometimes with some shift+click action in the case of longer range weapons and other such small exceptions. In most melee duels, if you're running around dodging anything besides charge or WW, chances are you either don't know what you are doing or you're probably not really melee.

@Alexsc25: If they cry about absorb, don't worry about it. They will cry regardless what you use if you beat them. If they lose, they will complain. Bottom line for 95% of bnet players.

[LLD-Vampire]

If you have Iron Maiden on you, and you hit something and it hurts you, I concider it melee. I don't know if CS has a portion of physical damage. If it does then I concider it melee. Moving or AR, who cares? As if the moving rule makes sense anyway. Your still melee when you hit them who cares if your moving or were moving (charge).

[Weltkriegpally]

wolves are near the bottom of the melee ladder? If the zealot isn't using exile, then its gg for him. It is only because of the lifetap that makes them so decent. I can name a few wolves willing to prove it, too. and these same wolves are just as capable of tearing up concentrate barbs. If they aren't experienced, then about the only melee that gives them any trouble are smiters/ww barbs, and both can be beaten. I would have to say that wolves are seriously powerful duelers in the right hands.
As far as the bears go, I am remaking a titan mauler on east. Should be interesting in duels, as I managed to take one and defeat one of the top wolves the other night.

--welt

[Lyrs]

CS without the charged bolts = melee
CS with the charged bolts = not melee

:lol:

[DOC]

If you hit someone with a physical piece of equipment, you are coming in contact with your oppenent and therefore are melee. CS, WW, Smite although they provoke the whiny and sob stories from people are melee, face it, you just are turning the word into something that you can be the best of.

And please, people who say "I am the best on such and such realm." There are hundreds or thousands of people who play d2 on each realm, nobody is the best. Ill agree with you if you have not died, but still, odds are you have dueled only .00001% of the community, far from the best...

[Jerkazoid]

i have a 20 foot pole.....u have a 3 inch swiss-army knife
we are both "melee" but yet i have more "range" then you.

the difference between range 2 talons and 5 poles, sure its there.. but its not the same degree as my above example. most characters that lack range could have made up for it with a different weapon,, its in their power (more or less)

however WW is a skill that only barbs and assasins can have.. theres no way to really make up for that range they get..

But cs is fair game vs something like WW (or perhaps smite),,
its bolts are ITD and yes it releases a nice AOE.. so its balanced imo..

use of tgods + abosrb and stacking, well.. thats a diff discussion

[Mule]

What is melee then? From my point of view my defenition is not screwed up... Why do you think its messed up?
I really can't bring myself to read all the replies, so I'll stick to this one. I know what you mean when saying stuff like WW and smite isn't melee, you mean they're unfair in the sense they're more powerful attacks than most others. However even if it is so, they're still melee. There's only two ways you can attack in D2, whack someone with a weapon/shield or throw something at them, be it spell or "real" weapon usage. Now, when you WW someone, you certainly aren't throwing, and you certainly are using your weapon to hit. When you smite someone, you're not throwing a shield at them, you are using your shield as a close range weapon.

It's fair enough complaining WW, smite and CS shouldn't be allowed in your duels, however claiming the reason for this being these attacks are not melee is very incorrect. Instead say "we don't allowed XYZ because they're overpowered for the type of duels we perform", this is a fair thing and understandable, but claiming they're not melee is just a bad excuse for not using the sentence you really mean.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

wolves are near the bottom of the melee ladder? If the zealot isn't using exile, then its gg for him.
I would be happy to take up that challenge. I don't use exile, OW, poision, or lifetap, all CH compliant. Its not the lifetap, its the defense differential.

I will be hitting 88%+ (22k ar vs 3k defense) of the time, he will be hitting AT BEST 60% of the time (45k ar vs 30k defense). Even 45k ar is pretty high, nonbuffed wolves are usually around 20k. I do more damage and have either a range, block, or a shield advantage (if he is 7/4, I have range, if he is 8/5 (etbotdz), I have speed, if he is 2h, well...). The wolf will have minions and life, but the defense should put me ahead.

*Garbad_the_Weak

Garbad

[Garbad_the_Weak]

IIt's fair enough complaining WW, smite and CS shouldn't be allowed in your duels, however claiming the reason for this being these attacks are not melee is very incorrect. Instead say "we don't allowed XYZ because they're overpowered for the type of duels we perform", this is a fair thing and understandable, but claiming they're not melee is just a bad excuse for not using the sentence you really mean.
Agreed. This should be the final word on these stupid discussions. Its not about the definition of melee, its about balance.

Garbad

[Weltkriegpally]

I would be happy to take up that challenge. I don't use exile, OW, poision, or lifetap, all CH compliant. Its not the lifetap, its the defense differential.

I will be hitting 88%+ (22k ar vs 3k defense) of the time, he will be hitting AT BEST 60% of the time (45k ar vs 30k defense). Even 45k ar is pretty high, nonbuffed wolves are usually around 20k. I do more damage and have either a range, block, or a shield advantage (if he is 7/4, I have range, if he is 8/5 (etbotdz), I have speed, if he is 2h, well...). The wolf will have minions and life, but the defense should put me ahead.

*Garbad_the_Weak

Garbad

Indeed. Are you on east, Garbad? If so, I can name 3 wolves that will all be happy to duel you.

accounts that I know are as follows::
*xmythyrasx char. mythreborn
*doc-hugerooster char. doc-youredinner

last wolf, I don't know the account for, but it is delinquentfury. Most of these guys can be found in the druidic grove, from 9 pm cst on. Several can be found earlier. I don't see how you can do more damage than these guys. especially not doc. He has the gear and skill to take out most zealots very easily. They typically duel in druidpk, and generally follow clan honor type rules. If you follow them, then I don't foresee any problems. Just show up in the grove on east. Any of these guys will be happy to duel you.

--welt

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Sorry, I am a westie. I haven't ever lost a set to a wolf tho, and I have dueled some pretty good west ones.

I do just over 9k zeal with ebotdz (8/4, range 3), which is more than any druid I have heard of. My life is a tad low (due to charms and high str (I have a widow on switch and armor has 222 str req :( ), but the defense differential is too high imo.

Garbad

[LLD-Vampire]

I was wondering would using exile(asuming there was no life tap) or beast on a paladin be concidered bm by clan honor rules? Or like a barb using CTA (not that one would)

[Garbad_the_Weak]

I was wondering would using exile(asuming there was no life tap) or beast on a paladin be concidered bm by clan honor rules? Or like a barb using CTA (not that one would)
Generally, no. Aura stacking is legal in ch. % to cast life tap is banned, but if you never triggered it (either by ww or caster, etc), its ok. Some people might think its cheap, but its allowed under the rules.

Barbs can use CTA for the +1 bo if they want, but most dont. Most prefer +2 shout to +1 bo.

Garbad

[HandofElysium]

Indeed. Are you on east, Garbad? If so, I can name 3 wolves that will all be happy to duel you.

accounts that I know are as follows::
*xmythyrasx char. mythreborn
*doc-hugerooster char. doc-youredinner

last wolf, I don't know the account for, but it is delinquentfury. Most of these guys can be found in the druidic grove, from 9 pm cst on. Several can be found earlier. I don't see how you can do more damage than these guys. especially not doc. He has the gear and skill to take out most zealots very easily. They typically duel in druidpk, and generally follow clan honor type rules. If you follow them, then I don't foresee any problems. Just show up in the grove on east. Any of these guys will be happy to duel you.

--welt

I have seen these guys before dueling and complaing at each other LOL quite hilarious about shift-fury. Anyway when I saw the zealots come in to druidpk I never saw any of them duel any zealots. They do use dupe jewels though so not true clan-honor standards.

[Weltkriegpally]

I have seen these guys before dueling and complaing at each other LOL quite hilarious about shift-fury. Anyway when I saw the zealots come in to druidpk I never saw any of them duel any zealots. They do use dupe jewels though so not true clan-honor standards.

it is quite humorous to watch, yes. That would be doc and delinquentfury. However, I guarantee that these guys are something firece to deal with, especially myth. With a botd, he hits 40k ar with oak sage (and full prebuff), an 8/5 fury, over 10k damage...with oak sage, and something over 6k life. I don't know many zealots that can deal with that;if they don't have life tap. I have honestly never seen him lose to a zealot in that regard, and he has dueled some good ones. He also has good 7/4 weapons, including but not limited to the cmsofq. He does just under 5k damage with that. Paladins may have a defense advantage, but wolves have an ar advantage...a rather large one. If they choose to employ it, then I am thinking that it is more than even between the zealot and the wolf. If I have to, I can try to come to uswest and set up one myself, although bears are more my thing if dueling melee druids. I don't think I can ever get the kind of equip my friends have, though.

--welt

[mepersoner]

Zealots = damage and defense advantage

Wolf = life and attack rating advantage

However, zealots will be hitting more because wolves have NO DEFENSE. Only advantage left for the wolves is life..

[HandofElysium]

Zealots = damage and defense advantage

Wolf = life and attack rating advantage

However, zealots will be hitting more because wolves have NO DEFENSE. Only advantage left for the wolves is life..

Ah just get a smiter and be done with it :D

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Incidentally, my zealot has like 1.5k smite with storm o_o

Garbad

[Alexsc25]

If bliz would bring back leech, it would go a long way to balancing melee duels (elemetnal attackers would do more dmg, but no leech, lifetap, ow, and poi would be much less cheap because it could be countered).
Garbad

I think you bring a very good point in this. Leach would elminiate the inbalances between cs/smite, although it might nerf fire druids, although even now a 17 k fire druid will loose to a 4 frame wolfbarb with a dwarf ring, or a well build profile barb/zealot, at least from what I've seen in duels.

Module88: I was trying to come up with logic, but not on a logical plane of view, if looked from a general not diablo II related perspective you are totaly right. The problem with charge imho is desync/charging in hitting charging out reapeating. That takes away the point of fast attacks on your opponents part because the charger controlls when the opponent can hit him, while always making an attack roll in that moment with his charge because he is charging. This brings me to the next mini-point,

Phyrexial: I agree about click and hold and your whole post in general.

LLD-Vampire: General Melee can be defined like that, true, though both fireclaw/CS have a small % of the damage be physical. CS releases charged bolts, so its the same as a sorc running up to you hitting you with a staff (missing or not) and then casting a lvl 50 fireball at you. This is the same as CS, when an attemt at an attack was made an elemental spell was casted. That would be melee right? Since cs only do physical dmg on the parts they hit, but elemental 100%, and same for this hypothetical sorc.

Weltkriegpally: How about wolfbarb vs real wolf, wolf has dmg advantage, but barb has much more defence and similar life. Know any GOOD wolfs on east ladder?

Lyrs: That seems logical.

DOC: Well for balance sake's how am I to name my dueling games then? When one makes a "melee Duels" game it's understood what is prefered, this is what I am talking about as being melee.

Jerkazoid: Indeed, ww gives such a big advantage to ww'ers along with the fact that the ww'er is moving making his opponent miss many of their attacks because of this that makes most people dislike it when dueling as other melee.
I also present the ITD issue, remember eth's from 09? I will gladly duel any smiter if that was still in effect... I clearly recall people not wanting to duel people using eth's

Mule: I agree, however for naming sake It's what I see being the standart on b.net. And as I have said before I am not trying to redefine the word... arr its very confusing.

Weltkriegpally: Are they ladder by any chance? The druids that is... I really want to see how werebarbs do vs GOOD druids. However I do use open wounds, a whole 75% of them at 5 frames...

Garbad_the_Weak (Again): Widow rocks man! My last ladder's hammerdin used it to take care of the pesky blizzard/fireball sorcs. Just you had to move well. Also, sadly, only 2 other bow zons were able to kill me in a GA duel with me being a paladin, and those zons were build with as much psn/ow as possible.
Also, one can use 2 CTA's to gain +2 bo and then switch to echoing for shout.
Just takes a lot of space. Also, have you dueled 4 frame wolfbarbs with over 25k ar and over 6k life on west? I do not know if many people build those, Just wondering how your zealot does against them? (And ow/or not?)

Overall I think this discussion is doing well.

[Weltkriegpally]

no...but if you want to see a good wolf vs. a good wolf barb, you could try druidpk some night between any of the wolves I mentioned and vourious. Those are some hella good duels, and vourious usually loses.

--welt

[Alexsc25]

Allright, Ill join to watch today at night. druidpk/1 right?

The deal with wolfbarbs is we barely have enough space to prebuff. I would think 10x warcries etc for lvl 20 + 5 + 3 + 4 + 2 + 4 +1 + 1 + 1 +11 + 1 = 53 bo, and then level 51 shout when cta's switched to echoing, thats helm amy 2x 2 weapon slots, armor, rings belt and 10x grand charm slots just for bo/shout, then another helm amy 2x hoto for morphing, and then another set of helm (Unless you own a perfect wolfhowl, I have a 3 / 5/6 /6/x/x/x one for prebuff and 2/6/6/3/1x/1x/1x for dueling), and then shield weapon amy rings belt armor 10 x masteries charms with fhr/life for dueling. A perfect wolfbuild takes like 3 mins to prebuff, and does not have enough space in inventory + stash to keep all his items!

[Inuyasha]

Well, I'm answering the title here. I've said it before and i'll say it again:

Do you all want to know a REALLY easy way to tell if something is melee? SIMPLE! Get a freakin' zon, with maxed Dodge and get the attack in question used against it. If the zon dodges the attack after a few swings, then it's melee. otherwise, no. Let the game itself define it for you!

I guess it took an idiot like me to figure out somethin you geniouses were puzzling over.

[xavier_pg]

What is melee? Melee is fighting someone up-close, as opposed to at a range. Chance of hitting that person or elemental damage has nothing to do with it. I don't understand how AR could have something to do with melee fighting.

Smite and WW are both melee, as is CS. In all three cases, you are actually coming up to the person, and hitting him, up-close. People don't stand at a far edge of the screen and hurt their opponents with those attacks. Therefore, they are all melee.

Besides that, the game itself is programmed to think that all three of those attacks are melee, and that should be reaosn enough not to debate this. You can test this out by using these attacks while you have IM on you.

People constantly think that attacks that their duelers can't withstand are always unfair, so they group them into a different category by themselves, outside of "melee" and "ranged". Are you going to tell me that Charge and Fire Claws aren't melee?
I'm my opion melee is dueling usin non ranged weps or skills no matter what they are, smiter chargers, ww, there all melee including cs, in my opion if ur not usin a bow and u have to walk/run to the person and phisically hit them to do damage then thats melee

[soul-eater]

man this post is all over 1 simple question and u go on bout nothin.ive been on b-net duelin since 07 and 2 my knowledge apart from sorcs , necros and bow zons most other attacks are melee but there r exeptions now in 1.10 like elemental druids.foh ect casters as there called but a jav amazon with chargestrike is melee as she is standing there attackin u with javs doing melee dam despite the extra lightning dam which is a bounus which is same for smite ect u have 2 be close 2 hit which is melee if they were a bow zon or necro ect hitting from a distance thats non melee if ur gona argue wats melee wats not wat do class a psn ow barb who hits then runs till ur on 1 hp as hes melee but psns killing u like cs does

this is just my way of thinkin so all u die hard players who examine every thing do need 2 flame its just a view after all about a GAME

[qazxswcde]

i think the point of melle is to take the skill out of duels which for alot of people including me is a good thing cs is melle and so is fc on the grounds neither moves i dont duel them couse i have minus resist ww isnt melle and with enough fhr you can beat smite you can run couse i its