Effecient PvP Kicksin Alternative

[JadedKiss]

I was thinking of taking the basic KickSin build, but throw in lots of DR items such as Gaze/Shaft so damage is less taken for KickSins...When I duel with my Necro, it seems as if every game I go in other people make KickSins look like $hit...no offense to any because Im trying this build soon...but it seems like if theyre so weak. Is it just me or is it them?

JadedKISS

[raphiel20]

to be honest i havent seen many pvp kicksins around on europe, you enter a pubby pvp game and the onyl asn's you see are either wwsins or trappers. If you are on about seeing pvp kicksins in pubby duels look well..crap. that might be because your in a pubby game :lol: also you might find them fighting alot of cookie cutter builds like hammeradins etc which in some cases are jsut 1 hit killers.

l8rs :howdy:

raph

[Metroid_01]

I was thinking of taking the basic KickSin build, but throw in lots of DR items such as Gaze/Shaft so damage is less taken for KickSins...When I duel with my Necro, it seems as if every game I go in other people make KickSins look like $hit...no offense to any because Im trying this build soon...but it seems like if theyre so weak. Is it just me or is it them?

JadedKISS

dont count on making an all purpose kicker...it just wont work. kicksins dont have the power to take on for instance most melee chars like zealots or conc barbs. BUT they are pretty efficicent at destroying casters. you can easily stack res on 1 (2x 50% jade talon = 100% res right off) and they hit fast and accurately and assuming ur enemy doesnt max block a kill will be quick. ww and trappers are more popular because they can kill anything if your gear is rearranged....kickers are weak, but i have one in my arsenal and although she isnt godly she is DAMN fun to play...i havent had that much fun pvming anything in a long time.
my suggestion, try it..you just might like her, winning isnt everything. if you cant enjoy the duels and have fun its not worth making a pvp. of cource that doesnt mean build a **** char that couldnt kill a hell fallen...it just means dont get discouraged when she doesnt kill that lvl 75 melee paladin.
if u want my opinion on how to put her together after this is all said and done...id be happy to give you some pointers, though the asn forum has somewhere a really good anti caster kicksin guide.

[ilkori]

Kickers will absolutely rock vs casters, but they suffer in general against melee. Here's a quote taken from a conversation about PvP kickers found on another forum:quote by Aceboomcoon

The problem there is, as perfectly made and equipped as my kicker is, i'm not one of those guys that thinks he can beat everyone. I am very realistic to who kickers can beat, and who they can't. Unfortunetely, the list of builds that a kicker can beat isn't that much longer then the list they can't. Thats why I am a little hesitant to make a guide for a PVP kicker, because as fun as they are, you have to get use to dying a lot, cause thats what happens.

I'm sure you'll hear people claiming that they can beat almost everybody with their kicker, if they use wake of fire, or mind blast or whatever, but the truth is, expert duelers in other class builds know exactly what to do when a kicker does that to them.

Here are the builds that kickers OWN:

- any sorc
- Bowazons
- Foh paladins
- Dragon claw sins
- Melee druids
- summon necro's (use cloak of shadows, army is useless)
- Poison necro's
- Non ww barbs

Here are the list of builds kickers CANNOT beat:

- WW barbs
- WW assassins
- Trap assassins
- Smiters
- Zealots
- wind druids
- Singer barbs ( good ones I mean )

Here is the list of EQUAL duels:

- Bone necro's
- Hammerdins
- Javazons


Thats pretty much how I see it. That list of impossible duels is pretty long I would say, and then there are people who will give you an equal duel.

Thats why PVP kickers aren't really the best choice if you want to win a lot Quote by Wizadept


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Q u o t e:
Thats why PVP kickers aren't really the best choice if you want to win a lot
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I second that, kickers definetly die easy, and to a lot of different builds. However in my opinion a kicker is one of the most fun classes to play in pvp, because of their versitility. It's definetly the right build to play if you enjoy playing the underdog that with the right playing tech can take down opponents that are stronger than you in straight up damage, defense and life. And is the wrong build to make if you enjoy playing a character with one powerful attack (ww barbs, zealots and so on)

Also one thing to note is that most players in public dueling are kinda weak. As in I know I have no chance against elite ww barbs with my kicker, however anyone less than elite, that being the majority of the public dueling population, I can take down, so when I see a ww barb in a dueling game, it's not necessarily an impossible fight, in fact I can kill more botd/enigma barbs than not. However against the elite, a kicker stands no chance.


Kind of odd that you put singer barbs as impossible duels, maybe I've just never seen a good one, however I've never lost to one.


I'd be interested to see a guide to how you play and equip your pvp kicker. It seems you have a very different setup than me, and then there is also that you are not on ladder, so you have access to items that I don't, as well as you don't have access to some of the ones I do.

I don't know how it is on any other realms, but east lacks powerful kickers in pvp. The majority of them just plain suck. There are a few I've run into every now and then that put up a fight. Wish we could duel somehow, would like to see how my setup would do against yours.Quote by Aceboomcoon

Wizadept, I'm actually very surprised that you agreed with my take on the dominance of kickers. I thought forsure you would be one who thinks they are godly.

Its nice to hear another "pro" kicker actually be realistic about their abilities. I personally think kickers are the most difficult characters to use for PVP. Sure gear matters, and its nice to have all the sexy items, but really, kickers are a very skill based character. If your not fast on the hot keys, and experienced vs all classes, and can think quick, kickers get rocked. If you have lots of experience, like you said, kickers can overcome the odds and beat a lot of leet players.

I put singer barbs there only because I have dueled a good one, and he beat me 3 straight and I didn't beat him once. That shout has Mad Stun. Its easy to hit them a few times, but once they get the first hit, you get stun locked and its GG. Even with my 87% FHR, I still got stun locked pretty easy and it was over. But I agree, since there are so few good singers out there, I'm not surprised you haven't lost to one. When you run into a good one though, you will know what I mean.

As for my build. I will post that sometime when I have time, so you and ilkori both can have a look at it. I'm sure aside from the boots, its the same as you use. I have 6 different weapon combinations depending on who I am fighting. 3 weapon / shield, and 3 dual claw set ups.

I have a 5/-5 in my deaths web, and I use Cats eye when I have that set up. All the other 5 set ups use mara's. I figured it was worth having the 5/-5, because I don't need the resists when I am in that set up. My resists are all way over maxed anyway because I use COH almost all the time, except for duels vs Bone necro's and hammerdins, cause its magic damage. I use bramble for those match ups.

[Speederländer]

Kickers that use base WoF/MB (at least moderate level on the MB) properly, have some fast cast, and have BETTER FHR THE COMPETITION, can beat trappers the vast majority of the time. Period.

Also, with WoF/MB my kicker wins 90%+ vs. tele wind druids.

The list above about who you can't beat is not correct.

Quote:
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I'm sure you'll hear people claiming that they can beat almost everybody with their kicker, if they use wake of fire, or mind blast or whatever, but the truth is, expert duelers in other class builds know exactly what to do when a kicker does that to them.
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What's that? What do they know exactly to do? I have been dueling with assassins for over two years. There is no silver bullet for someone to escape from WoF/MB lock. Desync-ing out and FHR are the only real solutions, at least for the classes I just mentioned. And, in any event, I have dueled extensively now in 1.10. VERY FEW people (of those indicated above in the post under question that are kill-able, of those I listed here as definitely kill-able, and of those listed above as an equal match-up) are expert enough, or so it seems, to escape getting locked down. So, claiming that you will NEVER beat a trapper or a wind druid just because a few "experts" in those classes can't be beat is false. And in any event, for every "expert" wind druid, etc. there is an "expert" kicker who can kill them.

The person who made those claims obviously did not have enough experience with kickers (or assassins in general?) to make those claims.

[Speederländer]

Here are the builds that you can always win against AT LEAST 50% of the time if you are very good (equipment and skill). Against some of these you will win much more often, and against some every duel is a major challenge. But against all an experienced kicker with good gear can do at least 50%, even if the opponent is an expert in their own right.

- All sorcs
- Bowazons
- Foh paladins
- Dragon claw sins
- Melee druids (kickers generally have a better chance in shield mode)
- Summon necros (WoF/MB field will lock up the necro and his army)
- Poison necros
- Non ww barbs (shield mode may be required in some situations)
- wind druids
- Singer barbs
- Trap assassins
- Bone necros
- Hammerdins
- Javazons
- Zealots (If the kicker uses a storm/lacerator combo, this is often an equal duel except against the best zealots, of which there are few. Against the vast majority of zealots, this will be a 50/50 deal but it may be less depending on equipment and whether the zeal pally resorts to smite, etc. If they have life tap, you will probably lose 90%+ of the time.)


Here are the list of builds kickers usually cannot beat (unless their opponents are inexperienced or poorly equiped):
- WW barbs
- WW assassins
- Smiters


NOTE: I'm sure I'm missing a few builds here but I just co-opted the list provided above for my own purposes.

[ilkori]

Desync-ing out and FHR are the only real solutionsObviously - and some builds capitalize on this. Having PLR is usually an effective tactic as well, since the 10 frames can easily be reduced to the point where almost no poison damage is actually done.The person who made those claims obviously did not have enough experience with kickers (or assassins in general?) to make those claims.I would not say that, but from all the experience I have had with him he is cocky as a rooster, and usually overstates things.

I am not willing to support or argue against his list or yours since I do not have the experience to make an intelligent claim past this: casters (in general) are easy, and melee (in general) is difficult.

Honestly, Ace's list isn't much different from yours - he tends to order things from most certain to least certain. Either you have more experience, or a better build than he uses. The biggest difference in the builds is the use of Shadow Master and Mind Blast - he focuses more on Claw Blocking and Dragon Flight, which you do not. I am beginning to think your way because of how the teleport/MB works with Masters.

[D1ce]

Here are the builds that you can always win against AT LEAST 50% of the time if you are very good (equipment and skill). Against some of these you will win much more often, and against some every duel is a major challenge. But against all an experienced kicker with good gear can do at least 50%, even if the opponent is an expert in their own right.

- All sorcs
- Bowazons
- Foh paladins
- Dragon claw sins
- Melee druids (kickers generally have a better chance in shield mode)
- Summon necros (WoF/MB field will lock up the necro and his army)
- Poison necros
- Non ww barbs (shield mode may be required in some situations)
- wind druids
- Singer barbs
- Trap assassins
- Bone necros
- Hammerdins
- Javazons
- Zealots (If the kicker uses a storm/lacerator combo, this is often an equal duel except against the best zealots, of which there are few. Against the vast majority of zealots, this will be a 50/50 deal but it may be less depending on equipment and whether the zeal pally resorts to smite, etc. If they have life tap, you will probably lose 90%+ of the time.)


Here are the list of builds kickers usually cannot beat (unless their opponents are inexperienced or poorly equiped):
- WW barbs
- WW assassins
- Smiters


NOTE: I'm sure I'm missing a few builds here but I just co-opted the list provided above for my own purposes.

as for sorcs, what if they use es/tk + max block with 86% fhr? on east, there are 70/15 mana/life charms giving the sorc nearly inexhuastible mana. I find it hard to believe you can 50/50 all those casters if they can block, are very effiecient at teleporting, and have the highest fhr they can realistically attain. I personally play a ww/kick/mb sin and use the wof/mb/kick combo very often, but i'd be hesitant to say i can beat all casters 50% of the time just using kicks.

btw JadedKISS if ur on east, i can show u a nice kicksin ;)

[Speederländer]

as for sorcs, what if they use es/tk + max block with 86% fhr? on east, there are 70/15 mana/life charms giving the sorc nearly inexhuastible mana. I find it hard to believe you can 50/50 all those casters if they can block, are very effiecient at teleporting, and have the highest fhr they can realistically attain. I personally play a ww/kick/mb sin and use the wof/mb/kick combo very often, but i'd be hesitant to say i can beat all casters 50% of the time just using kicks.

btw JadedKISS if ur on east, i can show u a nice kicksin ;)

I make no promises if an opponent is using hacked charms. If she has an inventory of 70/15's, who knows? You're right, hard to beat, probably not going to go 50/50. But, I'm not going to lose sleep over a hacked out sorc. Same way I didn't lose sleep over hexes.

In any event, I can catch good teleporters often with my SM in tow doing the mindblasting for me and allowing me to cast WoF traps as I teleport at the 65 fc breakpoint. Once they are locked up, I have 1750 physical kick damage, 470 (or whatever it is) chaos magic damage, and about 500 venom poison damage with a 6 kick series of 7/3/3/3/3/3. That doesn't include the fact that my SM hits hard at lvl 35. If the soerc is un-hacked or has no more than wizardspike gloves, I feel comfortable with the 50/50 number.

If the sorc is hacked, I will over-absorb if I care at all, as I always carry the equipment to do so in a pinch.

[MoreGameThanPS2]

Kickers dominate e shield sorcs, open wounds and poison goes right past the shield. e sorcs are the easiest to kill for a kicker, 1 dragon flight they usually have 1 life

[MoreGameThanPS2]

Hey d1ce, if your on sunday afternoon, message ralphynader3, i'll show u a beastly 1.10 ladder season 1 kicker

[D1ce]

Speed you still haven't responded to my question about Block/FHR/Good Teleporting.

MoreGameThanPS2, sure I'll look you up. I don't have a bad kicker myself. /w *Physical_Mage I'll set u up with some duels with my friends to see how you do. And if you can take down an es sorc's life to 1 with 1 DF, no offense but she must be a pubby Sorc =\

[Speederländer]

Speed you still haven't responded to my question about Block/FHR/Good Teleporting.

Well, you kind of combined it with the 70/15 using sorcs and I aswered with respect to that.

Block: I duel 75% blockers all the time; sorcs, necs, etc. It has never been a particular problem. Note, not only are they in block lock often from a 7/3 6-kick sequence (though this effect has been reduced in 1.10 I believe), but they don't block at 3 frames. Therefore, their 75% block isn't nearly as efficient as, say, a pally with holy shield and 2 frame or 1 frame blocking. Slow blocking vs. super fast attacks is a big strike against 75% block.

FHR: High fast hit recovery is always a difficulty. No question. But good FHR doesn't make you IMMUNE to WoF/MB lock, it just makes it easier to escape and to attack while being subjected to it. The keys are: First, kill VERY fast once they are locked up, Second, if you trip them up with a trap while MB swirlies are on them, quickly set traps randomly around them to vary the firing pattern and assure that they are being hit by traps at varying times and from different locations, thus reducing their opportunity to escape lock even if they have good FHR.

Good Teleporting: Again, the better the teleporter, the harder the duel. When I was in Gimmeitam, my trapper had great success against fast teleporting sorcs with strategic trapping and quick reflexes on the MB name-lock. With my fast-cast telekicker, I allow my shadow to do the MBing for me as I tele around the sorc. I drop traps as I go in an effort to catch them. This works often for me but not always. If they are hyper defensive, i.e. they always orb and fall back, then I will simply trap an area (pattern depends on the playing style of the sorc and the terrain) and allow them to come to me, aka 1.09 trapper style. A good sorc will always out tele me in the long run because I only have about 1K mana with no warmth to replace it.

Does that answer your question?

[D1ce]

Block: block lock is now impossible, a char will start taking hits a short while after they block. as for kicks hitting, having 3 or 4 of your 6 kick volley blocked will be a serious dent to your attack power and eat up precious time that your WoF/MB are buying.

FHR: Killing them VERY fast to avoide them escaping lock is near impossible against an expert, espcially or exclusively if they block. Also, if the opponent is truly an 'expert' they will not allow you to get on top of them while you lock them, and even if you did, chances are they will be able to escape before you can reinforce the lock. Of course sometimes you can do this, but you shouldn't always count on it.

Tele: A good teleporting caster is very hard to catch I agree, and hitting them with wof/mb/kicks/ww/df or anything for that matter is very difficult. i've been able to catch up to some top sorcs teleporting away, and it is VERY difficult. you really need mana pots to do this as well, so if you choose not to, then you are very limited in catching them. Also, if you try the trapping camping formation, they will most likely snipe you since most casters will have a longer range than you.

All in all my points all lead into one another and to this conclusion. Against a caster that has all three above in great abundance + great dueling skill, aka an expert, a kicksin will have on hell of a time winning over 50% of the duels.

To prove my point, I suggest you duel Soulesschild, a good Nec on USWest who possess all that I am talking about and possibly even more, he is on your realm. He will message you for the duel :)