View Full Version : Is using teleport from enigma and warcries from CTA cheap?
mepersoner
25-07-2004, 00:41
See poll, you can debate, but I think it's been debated before and just went in circles, just wanted a clear standing as to what people believed on the subject.
I agree with you mep I would like to see it in chduels :)
In my opinion, Teleport for Sorcies is okay, since that class is very fragile, and Telep helps balancing it. However, characters that would have no need for teleport just go stronger using it, again, leaving far behind those w/o tele and sorcies in general.
On the other hand, CtA does not bring every char to the same level as a Barbarian. Barbs still mantain an advantage, since their cries remain more powerful than CtA ones.
It is possible to beat a CtA user w/o one, it requires skill and knowledge of both your own and your opponent's chars, but it can be done. Enigma vs non-tele is nearly impossible. If runes hadn't been so widely duped, Those chosen few with Engima would probably ruled all duels.
In case it wasn't clear, my vote goes for option #1
KillSwitcHR
25-07-2004, 01:38
In my opinion tele duels are just more fun.
fat_mans_revenge
25-07-2004, 02:14
i personally must say that the truth to your question all depends on whether the person you are dueling uses these skills. i believe a sorc that teleports all around the map spamming spells is a tough opponent to beat. but a barb teleporting around trying to get next to the sorc evens the plying field a bit. as for a necro teleporting around spamming bone spirit, especially against someone who is not using enigma and cant teleport at all, this is a very lopsided fight, so i think that enigma being cheap is just a matter of what type of char your opponent is and especially what items your opponent is using. as for call to arms... i believe it to be as fair as a barb using breath of the dyeing...
and my only real question is, if enigma is considered cheap, does that make my crafted teleport ammy cheap as well? :scratch:
No.
Try killing a pro sorc with a barb when the sorc teles at 7 frames and doesn't stop to let you close enough.
Fair? Other melee besides pallies are at even more disadvantage because they don't have Zerk or WW.
Same goes for a nec who bone prisons any melee. Fair?
It's really your only choice in pubby duels if you want to be competetive.
format_c
25-07-2004, 03:21
enigma is really only cheap if you abuse it, like if you just tele/cast a few hammers/tele or whatever, anyone who cant tele or use a ranged attack isnt going to be able to win unless you tele right next to them and they one-hit kill you. my main beef with enigma is that it the gives that huge advantage of suprise.
for example, a wind druid can still kill without enigma, but i know i would have seen a lot more ears drop if they weren't able to tele on top of me from just offscreen and immediatly spam tornados.
they both wouldnt be cheap if there werent so many duped runes and such...without dupes, only a few select people would have the items, and thus it wouldnt be cheap at all i dont think
as it is now, its cheap as hell
The_Sickness_101
25-07-2004, 23:33
Teleport nor CTA is cheap in my opinion. If you cannot afford these items do not punish those who can by trying to make duels fair. Doing so will always anger a group of people. I say just play how you wanna play(aside from nking, tging, gold stealing.) CTA does not come close to matching a barb(4 life/vit point and a much higher bo then the best cta and +skills set up) Teleporting duels are much more fun in my opinion, like turbo mode in marvel vs capcom etc. It just speeds up dueling. People say barbs are ruined w/ tele, but I have seen many barbs um a wiz spike and use an eth botd cb and whirlwind casters. But if a majority of people feel a certain way, you arent going to change anything. Bias along w/ the people in "high places" opinions will determine what happens in private dueling leagues. You wont change ch mep. And those of you that say it is cheap, If I gave you one to duel with would you use it? Or is it cheap because you dont have one?
Garbad_the_Weak
25-07-2004, 23:46
The old poor argument is bull. Tell me I think its cheap because I can't afford one.
I would prefer the term "unbalanced" rather than cheap though. I use cta and engima pvm, both are helpful. I don't use them pvp because they are unbalanced.
Garbad
mepersoner
26-07-2004, 00:06
Half and half for CTA Garbad. Half of people is not a majority, you are being biased by representing one half and not the other.
Ya but garb, don't you pvp with a mage. That means you get an auto target spell as well as vigor-charge and huge life already.
Garbad_the_Weak
26-07-2004, 00:20
Nope, not half and half at all.
This is probably the most favorable place possible to get support for teleport duels, and 15/25 voted that teleport was cheap. 60% is an overwhelming majority in a vote system.
Garbad
mepersoner
26-07-2004, 00:28
Uh? Try again kid, I said CTA.
Edit: And as for the Teleport, I remember when we made a poll in CH and the votes were split like 13 to 15 you said it was "too close to make a decision".
This isn't the place I would get the most support? If I wanted that I'd post on a place where more pubby duelers voted.
Garbad_the_Weak
26-07-2004, 00:35
No, read the posts. This place is by far the most "public" of any forum. The place likely to give the least support would be CH.
The other vote was too close to bring in a new rule, as the rules need a good approval to get passed. This shows me under the best cirumstance its only 50/50, in CH it would be much lower. Even if CH did vote for it, I would likely overrule it because it would be a bad decision.
Garbad
mepersoner
26-07-2004, 00:39
Biased vs. teleport. Biased for paladins.
No, it isn't a bad decision. If it did get voted in in CH why would it suddenly be a bad decision? It seems everything that you want is a good decision, and everything you don't want is a bad decision.
Garbad_the_Weak
26-07-2004, 00:53
It seems everything that you want is a good decision, and everything you don't want is a bad decision.
Thats a good way for you to look at it.
Garbad
P.S. It DID get voted down in CH. By a huge majority btw, dig up the threads.
mepersoner
26-07-2004, 01:00
CH forums.
Sorry, but we have disagreeing views on dueling and how a dueling league should be ran.
Bob_TheMadCow
26-07-2004, 01:43
Even if CH did vote for it, I would likely overrule it because it would be a bad decision.I am gonna have to pick up on that as a bad thing to say, especially in the current situation. I think it would be wiser IF it were voted in by CH (which, btw, the PvP forum is NOT, ty mep) then it would be better to allow it for a while, and if people realise you were right all along, you can have a big fat "i told you so" lined up for them.
tiger-bunny
26-07-2004, 03:00
i can deal with dueling people that use cta/enigma and its not like theres a huge advantage, give your standard crappy dueler a cta and enimga and they are still gonna be a bad dueler, it just changes the pace of the duel, but honestly i think banning tele for a sorc is the craziest rule i have ever heard, it ruines the character and takes away alot of the run involved in a high paced sorc duel.
pubbies remain competetive and fun even with these things so i really dont have anything to complain about
mepersoner
26-07-2004, 03:21
I'm seeing a 16 to 15 here Garbad for CTA not being cheap.
The_Sickness_101
26-07-2004, 05:09
Mep, why don't you just start up your own dueling league. I'd join if I were on west, as I think you are on west. Maybe you could even make rules that are flexible, if someone wants to tele duel ok, if they specifically ask you not to than don't. I'm sure you would get enough interest. From what I've read you used to be a mod, then kind of became a rogue? People take this and say you know nothing of dueling? Seriously, make your own clan if you are willing to spend the time. Even if you don't agree with everything CH does, there is no denying that Garbad and others put a lot of their time into it to make it work.
Mep rarely plays.
Well, they can vote whatever they want, as long as it's what I want. I shall call it a democracy!
Inuyasha
26-07-2004, 05:27
I say, it is balanced. Keep in mind that if they are using enigma to get teleport, then they are usually sacrificing better AC for it, and other such bonuses they could get from other armors. For many classes that don't have chasedown skills or ranged (Shapeshifting Druids, Conc barbs, Zealots, ect.) They won't hit anything without tele. Just consider it one of the things that makes DII a diverse and balanced game. Better than using hacks at least, which MANY duelers I've seen use (even "just" a Mh to see your opponents equip. How I hate feeling like I'm the only legit dueler on the realm....)
The_Sickness_101
26-07-2004, 05:31
Thats a good way for you to look at it.
Garbad
P.S. It DID get voted down in CH. By a huge majority btw, dig up the threads.
I've never seen a D2 dictatorship before... :scratch:
Inuyasha
26-07-2004, 05:46
Lol. Garbad Castro. Somehow, that just has a nice ring to it...
I'd follow him.
mepersoner
26-07-2004, 06:00
Mep rarely plays.
Yeah only everyday...
Mep rarely plays with himself.Yeah only everyday...
Well, rarely duels? I don't know.
mepersoner
26-07-2004, 06:34
I do both everyday. I even duel in CH everyday, but usually only for half an hour or so, and last night it was like one duel where I ran out, got killed, because my game was minimized by a message, and then I had to go because it was an important message...
darius_paul
26-07-2004, 15:55
I honestly think they are both cheap. However, I use CTA simply because when I see someone else use it, I only even the odds. I dont need to use it but when it takes 3-4 hits to kill someone that would normally take 2-3, then I make it "fair" by using it too.
As for teleport on enigma? I only have one enigma and its on my necro. I made him simply because hes fun to play. I dont play him nearly enough to be considered a dueler. I love barbs, pallies and zons the most and im a melee kinda guy too. Magic in general tends to be somewhat overpowered if you ask me.
The old poor argument is bull. Tell me I think its cheap because I can't afford one.
I would prefer the term "unbalanced" rather than cheap though. I use cta and engima pvm, both are helpful. I don't use them pvp because they are unbalanced.
Garbad
Whats the difference between "cheap" and "unbalanced"?. In PvP terms, I would say cheap is the fact of abusing, taking advantage, making profit, on purpose of an unbalanced situation. So "cheap" suits perfect, IMO. However, things can get even more complicated if we study in depth semantic considerations, since the sentence "You say itīs cheap beacause you canīt afford one" it is a cheap argument too. Very cheap.
Hey, I honestly just post my oppinion and try to explain things as I see them, with the only intention to make them clearer. Not beyond at all of my intention that to start a war. A war I would never gain :lol:
If you think that this forum would have more people supporting enigma and cta use than other forums you are wrong. The BNet forums, d2jsp, and ********* would all overwhelmingly support enigma and cta use.
SlainByPain
27-07-2004, 10:39
Ok enigma is sorta turning spell casters into clones.. but really if it werent for enigma, there would be so many more sorcs.. considering there are already an infinite number of sorcs already..
LLD-Vampire
27-07-2004, 11:05
Pubbys both=GM
Non pubbys both=BM (unless otherwise specified)
If blizzard ever releases and item with either Holy shield charges or holy shield like teleport on enigma I'm quiting the game :).
no2fakeshakes
27-07-2004, 11:10
Pubbys both=GM
Non pubbys both=BM (unless otherwise specified)
If blizzard ever releases and item with either Holy shield charges or holy shield like teleport on enigma I'm quiting the game :).
most private pks and clan duels allow cta and enigma
pubbies remain competetive and fun even with these things so i really dont have anything to complain about
Now that would be an oxymoron. :uhhuh:
Herald of Doom
27-07-2004, 16:51
CTA+Enigma are both overpowered/cheap(imho ofcourse).
Cta gives you an advantage over a barb, because he sacrifices 20 skillpoints to get his bo, and you only go to your stash and have your lvl 15 BO and still have your fully synergized firebolt/BS to spam, although you have base nrj but bo makes sure you have enoug mana... Enigma is overpowered because it makes all swing attacks semi-useless, which isn't fun. I *could* use my enigma on my necro, I *could* use Cta, but I don't because I already have a positive win/lose ratio and I don't need it to be strong. Plus it feels great to kill a cta+enigma+mh user with my nec :D
HoD
Module88
27-07-2004, 20:45
No.
Try killing a pro sorc with a barb when the sorc teles at 7 frames and doesn't stop to let you close enough.
Fair? Other melee besides pallies are at even more disadvantage because they don't have Zerk or WW.
Same goes for a nec who bone prisons any melee. Fair?
It's really your only choice in pubby duels if you want to be competetive.
Not fair? The Zealot gets killed by hammerdin all the time (Just an example here). Fair? According to you, no. But that same hammerdin gets beaten by a necro all the time. Obviously, if you make a pvp build, you sure as HELL better be able to deal with its weaknesses without whining. Every build has a weakness, and if you can't handle that, stop dueling. Zealots always will be at a disadvantage against certain classes, especially teleporting ones. Why did you make a zealot? You knew that it didn't stand a good chance, but you still whine when it loses to what you KNEW it would lose to.
IMO, teleport from anything outside of the sorcs right click skill is bm, and anything outside of the barbs right click bo, bc, and the like are bm as well. In pubs, expect them to use every dirty trick they can think of. Just because one type of build loses a lot to another build doesn't mean it sucks (although the more builds you lose to the greater disadvantage you have). It just means that the particular build you chose to build has a lot of weaknesses in pvp. If you are going to do that, duel only zealots or whatnot. But don't whine that because your build can't beat another that it's not fair and you should be cheap.
LLD-Vampire
27-07-2004, 23:06
most private pks and clan duels allow cta and enigma
I said unless otherwise specified. But I wouldn't really concider that to be true.
I find these restrictions on items used is quite pointless. Don't any of you like challenge? variety? and change? Each patch brings new ideas to new builds. As said before in 1.09 patch. Learn to accept the changes and don't give up on the challenge ...some of you think some classes are overpowered. However you all forget how to face a challenge, learn new tactics, and learn to adapt to the new patch. I find it funny you all WidowMaker but not enigma? cta? lol ...sry but these rules you all abide to just make you weaker and not learning to accept new challenges.
LordDrift
27-07-2004, 23:28
I think neither is cheap.
why? Because this is a casters patch, melee had its fun dominating the previous patches. Let the casters have their fun, 1.09 esp when casters were reallie unpopular due to white rings. CTA gives u a life bonus of a couple hundred, so what? get one now a cta with 1bo costs around ist rune which i know most can afford. suck it up!
But i also agree, if the dueling league doesnt allow it, then let it be. Its their league so its their rules.
Module88
28-07-2004, 06:07
I think neither is cheap.
why? Because this is a casters patch, melee had its fun dominating the previous patches. Let the casters have their fun, 1.09 esp when casters were reallie unpopular due to white rings. CTA gives u a life bonus of a couple hundred, so what? get one now a cta with 1bo costs around ist rune which i know most can afford. suck it up!
But i also agree, if the dueling league doesnt allow it, then let it be. Its their league so its their rules.
Define a few hundred. It gives me 1500 more if you call that a "few." As for the restrictions making you weaker, I expect all who say that to be bmer's using slow, full juvies, and pretty much anything that will give you the edge (they are "items" after all, and not using them would agree with the statement of making you weaker if CTA or whatnot is not allowed). Not many people like you folks for a reason.
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.