PVP: kick/bow or WW/bow

[pitzuchim]

I've read a bunch of guides and threads... the bowsin hybrid PVPer seems really fun =). I'm wondering whether you guys would recommend a WW/bow sin or a kick/bow sin. Right now, it seems to me like a kicksin would be cheaper (don't need chaos claw) and more fun, but I'm not sure how the two builds fair in PVP.

Some considerations I neeed to make when deciding what to build:

cost of equipment
how much fun it is
whether it can solo dclone =P

After posting your recommendations, please also mention the basic equipment and skills you would use with the build. Seems like A kicksin needs to be more devoted to the martial arts tree, perhaps with venom and fade/BoS on the side.

Thanks a bunch! I can't wait to get started!

[squigipapa]

Well, I have no experience with the kick/bow sin.. but I do with the ww/bow sin. Think of it this way. a ww/bow sin, will be just as powerful, skill wise as a pure ww sin. but they will also have a weapon switch with a decent damage, auto aiming way of applying venom. I had to make a few minor changes to my ww sin, but that was more equiptment wise.. just to add a couple of pieces of IAS equiptment to hit a decent guided arrow fireing rate.

If you decide to go ww/bow, the cost will be practically identical to a pure ww, +the cost of the widowmaker bow. You don't have to worry about AR in bow mode using the widowmaker with guided, however, if you use another bow you will.

For the skill/stat layout .. Like I said before .. it's a ww sin.. just make sure your str/dex will allow you to equipt your bow on switch .. and it's all good.

[sk8brdnick]

I experimented with bows a fair amount and found them of limited usefulness as OW is nerfed for missiles I believe and venom won't do much dmg against anyone with decent resist. Though they help somewhat against bad or mediocre hammerdins, you will be hard pressed to beat a decent hammerdin with widowmaker. A great deal of the problem is the minion stacking bug. So many casters have summons. It might be fun to make a sin focused on traps and bow usage.

[pitzuchim]

Yeah, but with four or five poison facets, the resists won't be quite as big of a problem. What are the ias cutoffs for widowmaker on an assn? Is the d2.de ias calculator accurate for this? I'm still leaning towards a kick/widowmaker sin just because WW seems too nubish to me. I dont want to be a *grunt* *grunt* barbarian, lol.

[sk8brdnick]

The problem is that you will be hard pressed to incorporate 4 or 5 facets into your gear unless of course you make separate armor for bow usage.

[squigipapa]

FPA / IAS Needed
15 / 0
14 / 9
13 / 18
12 / 30
11 / 48
10 / 75
9 / 125

Check out the other threads on "observations on bowsin" and I can't remember the other .. I list my equiptment .. ias to aim for .. both bow & claw mode stats/resist etc. 10 fpa is a good number to aim for and still keep on decent equiptment for killing very effectivelly when in ww mode.

@sk8brdnick .. I agree that poison can be resisted and length reduced .. but It can't be absorbed, it's neglected by a lot of players, facets can get the resistance down. The thing is that with this hybred .. you can take on anyone that you could as a pure ww sin.. only you have the extra auto aim ranged attack on switch as an added bonus.

As far venom not doing much damage against anyone with decent resists .. it's exactly the same .. even more so for all other elemental characters in the game.. Poison has one advantage though .. it can't be absorbed.. no matter how much resistance someone has .. or how much length reduction they have .. your poison will never heal them .. the same can't be said for cold/lit/fire.

[Speederländer]

FPA / IAS Needed
15 / 0
14 / 9
13 / 18
12 / 30
11 / 48
10 / 75
9 / 125

Check out the other threads on "observations on bowsin" and I can't remember the other .. I list my equiptment .. ias to aim for .. both bow & claw mode stats/resist etc. 10 fpa is a good number to aim for and still keep on decent equiptment for killing very effectivelly when in ww mode.

@sk8brdnick .. I agree that poison can be resisted and length reduced .. but It can't be absorbed, it's neglected by a lot of players, facets can get the resistance down. The thing is that with this hybred .. you can take on anyone that you could as a pure ww sin.. only you have the extra auto aim ranged attack on switch as an added bonus.

As far venom not doing much damage against anyone with decent resists .. it's exactly the same .. even more so for all other elemental characters in the game.. Poison has one advantage though .. it can't be absorbed.. no matter how much resistance someone has .. or how much length reduction they have .. your poison will never heal them .. the same can't be said for cold/lit/fire.

Not 100% true. To make the bow really effective you simply have to shoot at 9 frames. Therefore, you need to shoot with BoS enabled. Are you going to have a BoS/Fade switch when switching doing your weapon switch? I made a ww/bow sin on the ladder and a kick/bow sin as well as a pure bow assassin. I had good equipment and a perfect widowmaker. I tried the ow/venom route, the dexasin/deadly strike route, and the just-use-the-bow-once-in-a-while-when-the-opponent-is-almost-dead route. None of them stacked up to the ability of a dedictated WW sin or kick sin. The bow damage is just too low except vs. so-so duelers in the 1000 or less life range. And the minion bug will hurt a lot. Plus, you can't use a CTA, which is almost de'rigour among better duelers these days.

[pitzuchim]

If I use nat's armor along with a 2 socket CoA, that would make room for 5 poison facets. With a highlord or cats eye (cats if I go with a kicker, probably) I can get 20% ias; that, combined with BoS and the ias from a jewel or shael in the bow, should be enough.

[pitzuchim]

Bleh... maybe I'll just make a kicksin then. They seem much more fun and interesting than WW sins, and they can take down dclone fast =). Can you point me to a good kicksin pvp guide?

[Speederländer]

If I use nat's armor along with a 2 socket CoA, that would make room for 5 poison facets. With a highlord or cats eye (cats if I go with a kicker, probably) I can get 20% ias; that, combined with BoS and the ias from a jewel or shael in the bow, should be enough.

5 facets = -25% poison res. That's not a very spectacular return for 5 sockets used. Yes, you get a 25% damage boost, but again: You are shooting at 10 frames, 9 if you use BoS and note: YOU ALMOST NEVER HAVE A CHANCE JUST TO SPAM. Your poison will plink away at their life and the duel will take a very long time, esp if they are smart enough to down an antidote prior to the duel to get decent poison res or stacked res.

[Speederländer]

Bleh... maybe I'll just make a kicksin then. They seem much more fun and interesting than WW sins, and they can take down dclone fast =). Can you point me to a good kicksin pvp guide?

Good plan. See the the recent kicker thread for the most up-to-date thoughts on kicksins.

[squigipapa]

@Speederlander.. I do agree that the bow dosen't do amazing damage.. but it really depends on how you use it in conjunction with the ww. (I'll simply comment on the bow/ww setup as I have no experience with bow/kick.) I'll list my equiptment below and a brief explination why it's used.

Helm: Andy's Visage with +3x%ED/15%IAS Jewel. (+2 skills, etc. +35%IAS)
Weapon: Widowmaker with Shael rune Socketed. (33% Deadly Strike, +20%IAS)
Armor: Bramble Wyrmhide (+49% psn Damage, 50%FHR, +30Fire res countering andy's)
Amulet: Highlords Wrath (%deadly strike / character lvl, Massive lightening res +20%IAS)
Gloves: Trangs Gloves (+25% psn skill damage)
Ring 1: Ravenfrost (CBF, Dex, AR for claw mode. and cold absorb.)
Ring 2: Dual leech rare (6m/6l with resistance. This one I swap to suit the occasion, with either dwarfstar, wisp projector etc.)
Belt: String of Ears (Mainly for Damage Reduction.)
Boots: Up'd Gore Riders (up'd for more initial df kick dmg, OW, DS, CB are just gravey)

Bow Mode Notes:
- I have enough IAS in bow mode for the 75% break, so I use fade, lvl 35 at huff, combined with 15 from string, brings me to 50%dr, with pretty much max resists after charms etc.
- I have > 70% deadly strike with the bow, highlords & Gores
- I have +75% to psn skill dmg at huff, as well as the extra bonus at the time of application.

When I switch to claws.. basically nothing happens .. the 33% DS on the bow is replaced with the 33% on Fury.. and the rest of the equiptment is pretty much what I used on my ww sin before I ever had the bow on switch.

Duleing Strategy:

I switch a lot between weapons .. and attacks.. I'm still getting used to duleing this way .. there's a lot of hot key usage.. and I'm far from perfect at it .. I know what I want to do in my head .. I just havent' gotton my fingers to completly follow me yet .. but I am getting better.. :)

so the typical dual would go something like:

- Huff in town switch to all fighting gear above.
- run out, cast a couple of WoF's
- cast a sentenal, switch to bow
- Fire a couple of guided arrows, another sentenal, GA, GA, GA, switch back to claws
- mind blast, dragon flight, ww.

Now, obviously this isen't going to work every time or anything, but this is the basic strategy I use with the bow.. I don't keep the bow out all the time, but it's an important part of the whole strategy, so even if it's not doing thousands and thousands of points of damage, it always hits (though of course it can be blocked), it does still transfer a reduced venom, blocking a few guided arrows in a row can give you the couple of seconds you need to dragon flight in and ww to death.

Sure there are better PvP characters than mine.. and maybe the bow isen't a 1 hit killer or anything .. but I find it a great tool to use in dule's and it has definitly increased my enjoyment of fighting with my ww sin.. so why not? :)
Basically before I had the bow on switch .. I had my shadow claws that I never used at all .. so really there's only gains in my case by having the widowmaker on switch.

[pitzuchim]

Hmm I read the kicker FAQ. It doesn't say anything about builds/pvp though, it just has info on the stats related to kicking and kick skills. Right now I'm a little dissappointed though, because it seems like a kicksin is just a low damage, low defense, less versatile version of the fanat zealot. Someone please convince me of why a PVP kicker is fun and viable =). Will I be able to kill anything besides sorcs and necros?

[Speederländer]

@Speederlander.. I do agree that the bow dosen't do amazing damage.. but it really depends on how you use it in conjunction with the ww. (I'll simply comment on the bow/ww setup as I have no experience with bow/kick.) I'll list my equiptment below and a brief explination why it's used.


If it's fun for you, then go for it. Most of the people here will reply as to the straight up technical pros and cons of any idea that is posted. Therefore, on a weak (but fun) build, you will simply accumulate more criticism than for other build types.

[pitzuchim]

Well, ideally I would make a WW/bow sin, but it will probably be a while (ladder) until I can accumulate the gear needed for a good one (read: ohm rune). How badly is venom nerfed on bows? I heard that OW is nerfed to 1/8, but that's really not too bad... if nail them with 4 guided arrows with venom and OW, that will almost surely drain over 1k life. Not to mention that you will be doing some physical damage from the bow + deadly strike.

squigipapa, how many charms did you need in order to achieve max resists?

[EE40ozToFreedom]

im making a kicker/bow guy right now and hes lvl 50 right now, when i start dueling ill tell u how it goes.

im doing this build cause i get bored with a cookie cutter build to soon, out of the ordinary builds are the way to go

[squigipapa]

squigipapa, how many charms did you need in order to achieve max resists?

just so we're clear .. the max resists is after fade right .. ok.. I'll check the charms tonight when I get home .. I know my annilus is a perfect 20 for resists, 19 to attribs and 5% experience .. which is fine because killing other players dosen't net you any anyway.. :) ..

[pitzuchim]

Nice anni, squigi. After reading through a lot of guides/threads and looking at items on battle.net I think I've settled for a build with items extremely similar to yours. I have only a couple questions for you:
1. Why use string? Wouldn't a 15% verdungos be way better?
2. What claws are you using?

Also, is this on ladder? I want to make one on ladder =). It will take a while until I can afford all the equipment, though.

And finally... how effective and fun is this build? Is it viable for PVP (my main goal). How do people react to it? I don't want to build this char, only to be called a noob poison user by everyone I duel.

[EE40ozToFreedom]

Also, is this on ladder? I want to make one on ladder =). It will take a while until I can afford all the equipment, though.

And finally... how effective and fun is this build? Is it viable for PVP (my main goal). How do people react to it? I don't want to build this char, only to be called a noob poison user by everyone I duel.

if ur doing on ladder then i would suggest doing the kicker/bow like im doing but i dont know its effectivenss yet so ill get back to u on that

who cares if u get called a noob, I always get called it by hammeradins and other cookie cutter builds

[sk8brdnick]

The difficulty of using GA effectively is the minion stacking bug. GA simply doesn't hit those who teleport with a minion. I think that using GA to kill will prove to be ineffective. Another option would be use of GA with knockback to immobilized oponents in conjuction with MB and dmg from traps and/or a high lvl SM.

Do get me wrong, bowsins are fun, but there are bugs that preclude use successful use of a bow as ones primary killing tool.

[squigipapa]

Nice anni, squigi. After reading through a lot of guides/threads and looking at items on battle.net I think I've settled for a build with items extremely similar to yours. I have only a couple questions for you:
1. Why use string? Wouldn't a 15% verdungos be way better?
2. What claws are you using?

Also, is this on ladder? I want to make one on ladder =). It will take a while until I can afford all the equipment, though.

And finally... how effective and fun is this build? Is it viable for PVP (my main goal). How do people react to it? I don't want to build this char, only to be called a noob poison user by everyone I duel.

1. For sure use verdungos if you have it .. I just diden't have it on hand and thus far have been too lazy to look for it .. :)
2. My Claws are:

http://diablo.littlemonkey.ca/uploads/01-Chaos_-_Suwayyah.jpg

http://diablo.littlemonkey.ca/uploads/00-Fury_-_Suwayyah.jpg

As for the effectiveness .. It's just as effective as a ww build, with the added bonus of an auto-aiming, long range "venom transfer mechanism".

I've had some pretty interesting reactions from people .. I've layed down a couple of WoI's, fired off a couple of blade senteries.. then switched - fired a couple of guided arrows, switched back to claws, dragon flighted in, then whirlwinded to death .. the reaction was "What the hell kinda sin are you anyway?" The funniest was someone who asked if I was having an identity crisis.. being an assassin who's 2 main attacks are that of a barb and a zon.
but for the most part.. I'd say the most common reaction is surprise. like the "wow, that's way more effective than I would have imagined"

in pubby's you also get quite a few people who have no idea on earth how an assassin is able to use guided arrow... :)

[pitzuchim]

Nice assassin, squig. It sounds like you had lots of fun in pubbies :lol: . Because I'm on ladder, I don't think I'll be able to get the equipment needed for a good WW/bow sin any time soon, so instead I think I'll opt for the kick/bow sin. It should be a fun, exciting, and versatile PvP build, though I don't know how I will fair against melee. I think my skills will be distributed something like this:

20 Dragon Talon
20 Weapon Block
20 Fade
20 Venom
1 in Wake of Fire, Blade Shield, Mind Blast, and all the prereqs.
Rest in Shadow Master

As for equipment, I'm thinking this will be a good setup:
Andy's visage with 15% ias jewel
Bartuc/Jade Talon
Widowmaker with a shael rune
Cat's Eye (deadly strike isn't needed for kickers, and the extra r/w will help)
upgraded Gore Riders
15% verdungos
Dracul's grasp (or maybe trang's gloves?)
Raven frost
Second ring depends on who I'm dueling (raven/dwarf/wisp/etc... recommendations?)

... and I'm not sure yet about the armor ... bramble would be great, but Sur + Ohm is nearly impossible to get on the ladder right now.

What do you guys think of this build? Any suggestions? Any trouble spots you forsee? Dracul + gores will give me 40% OW... should I try to add more by using Duress armor or something?

[pitzuchim]

*bump* could someone please reply to my last post?

[ilkori]

No real experience here, just going to comment that there is a decent PvP Kicker/Bow assassin who posts on the Battle.net forums. He enjoys it, and it solos the clone very well. His main focus is on venom damage, and kicks using a Death's Web.

[pitzuchim]

What's the guy's name? And what is death's web?

[ilkori]

Wizadept@USEast

Death's Web is a wand that gives +2 skills and minus 40-50 enemy poison resistances.