Help my Rabies/Fc not suck :(

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Hey all,

I recently made a rabies/FC druid. I knew he wouldn't be godly but had never made one myself. Unfortunately, he is really bad :( I lose almost every duel. My defense and ar (and dmg) are too weak for melee v melee, and my rabies, although effective, is no better than a fury wolf (which is stronger overall).

Its also hard without shift furry to play with. Help!

My gear:

110 ias phase
strom
110% ias thresher
jalas
stone
cats
IK boots
verdungos
trangs gloves

10 ss charms
9 runwalk charms
anni

Rabies dmg: 25k
FC dmg: 6.8k

I maxed oak for teams and was begining to pump lycanthropy.

Garbad

[Ash Housewares]

hi garb umm... why is the OT thread locked at 289 posts?

[Dimoak]

Get someone else to play it.



Actually, I know nothing about flaming rabies.

May want to go angelic for AR. Not much you can do for defense besides what you've done, which is use Stone. Crap, you're probably using Carrion so just go one Ang ring and Ammy. That should add a good amount of ar.

[Forcefeedback]

Maybe get a +3 to shapeshifting crafted/rare amulet.

And I would also like to know.

[Dimoak]

Maybe get a +3 to shapeshifting crafted/rare amulet.

And I would also like to know.
You can't get +3 skill tab on a rare/craft. (Not 100% sure about craft, but I don't think so.)

[electricblue]

i would make a rage shifter instead.

[stev3073]

i also noticed that the rabies/fc was not very good at melee duels

i lost to most barbs but strangely i had a much better chance against those exile botd zeal pallies

i had less ss charms then you and used COH instead but id say i won 50% of my duels

i think trang belt will give you more life overall because +vitality is not factored into wolf life

my defense was pathetic but my ar was decent(at least i thought)

im not sure why your rabies isnt that great, i think mine is 25k and i think i only have 6 ss charms

it was annoying to lose to anyone good, and even to lose to IK barbs but with maxed res in hell plus stacked res about 15 ontop of that i didnt lose to many casters

but damn, i want to gouge out the eyes of those freakin FOH pallies

EDIT: Maybe go into bear for melee duels? a faster fc and some more defense might help you

[Garbad_the_Weak]

I druid shifting like that. It helped, but my defense and ar was far to low for melee duels. Plus, against anyone with good resists my dmg was very, very low.

Pretty disappointing :(

Garbad

[Sim.The.GoSu]

maybe post in kaz's thread o_O

post def/ar/life.

[~Kazama Fury~]

Plus, against anyone with good resists my dmg was very, very low.

this sounds familiar, so what ur saying is anyone with good resists is resistant to all elementals, wow, nice. why make elemental chars then if someone can resist with "good resists". someone using venom ward (many builds cannot switch for it since they use enigma) and dwarf star, well they are resistant to you, but hey, that makes them open to your teammates to attack which is where you dueled. thats if someone goes so far to resist only you. seing i havent seen anyone really resisting rabies properly yet because no one is really willing to sacrifice so much, then you have rabies to attack with. Dont you do the same with ur fury/rabies when someone runs off and you know that a rabies will finish them off?

Pretty disappointing :(
you disapoint me.
-lying about the guide going to SC. should just bring it out in the open, only fury/rabies and pure fc claws are good for shapeshift druids.
-trying to pull the same **** on me that you tried on vic. genius.
-not posting in my guide thread where i asked many times to do so where i can compile a better helping aid for other members.
-from your ch duelers list, most of your chars are overpowered to begin with, i am sorry if this does not fit your high standards, but theres people here who like to try out new things and not think only to own. have you even bothered to read the feedback that ppl had with this build? or other fbs in other forums? this isnt the godliest of all builds, but its still fun and many had good tries with it. i said many times, people with godly high end gear should go for the fury/rabies route. also i am sorry they're not as "godly" as your cannot nerf pallies.


there you wanted me to be frank, it was bound to come out sooner or later.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

-lying about the guide going to SC. should just bring it out in the open, only fury/rabies and pure fc claws are good for shapeshift druids.
-trying to pull the same **** on me that you tried on vic. genius.
-not posting in my guide thread where i asked many times to do so where i can compile a better helping aid for other members.

O_O

For the last time, kaz. I HAVE NO AUTHORITY OVER THE SC. I submit guides and get ignored. I ask for updates, and get "I'm working on it." I have very little infulence on what goes in and when. Talk to Elly, not to me.

If you mean pulling the same **** as in not banning you for flaming and trolling, probably so. I tried to publish vics guide, it just didn't happen. Don't blame me for what I can't do.

Last I checked, yout guide WAS in the guide list? What exactly are you complaining about?

You need to take that accusation back. I will not be called a liar.

Garbad

[Sim.The.GoSu]

maybe post in kaz's thread o_O



like i said earlier, post in kaz's thread if you need sumin..

[Asheron]

Let's have a tree hugging session anyone? :surprise:

[Dolph]

Why not hug eachother? :surprise:

[mepersoner]

Hasn't Garbad hinted he controls the SC?

Weird it changed in this thread.

Don't worry Kaz, most of the veteran druids get no respect. My guide was never put in the SC either.

[VictusMetuo]

Garbad you change your story too much. You said the reason my guide didn't get published is because you forgot to tell Elly that mine was "wanted and approved". So she ignored it. And I kept asking you why, and Mep asked you why his wasn't in there, you would just say oh she didn't get to them and 1.10 is coming [albiet it didn't come for half a year]. Then you come up with this reason a month or two ago. So I really don't know what went on, I just know that other guides made it in when mine didn't [Poison Creeper, and Dragoon's Werebear] just like happened with this round of guides. The only guides that get an extreme push are the ones with Garbad's name on them. But one thing I do give you props for is actually keeping that guide thread stickied, God knows the 1.09 one got unstickied enough. But talking around the fact it's not in there and giving a bunch of different reasons that contradict each other, isn't really helping things.

And if you really want to know what's wrong, it pisses people off when they waste their time writing something that get's total approval from the forum yet gets nowhere. And then they have to worry that their guide will suddenly disappear from the forums forever being wasted because of some patch or something.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

No, you are wrong.

There were two problems back in 09. First, I didn't understand my role was to recommend guides for publication 100%. I thought just pming Elly the guide list was enough to show we wanted them all published and/or users submitted them (which is what I did with the Shaman guide). I wasn't the only mod under this impression, which caused a lot of problems for a long time. This is the initial reason why guides didn't get published in late 09/early 1.10, as no one was really in charge of them. You thought I was, I thought you were.

This was solved a few months ago (after 1.10 came out) by creating a thread in the mod forum with requests for publication. I submitted every guide in the druid guide sticky at the time. It took months and months of prodding and waiting with little or no feedback, but eventually they all got published (other than electrics, which I have talked to him about and still can't really explain exactly why it didn't get pubished other than Elly didn't like the formatting).

Your guide and meps were not on that list for 2 reasons -- you didn't put them on the list and your guides are 09. Both have you have also commented saying you planned an update, which i am still waiting on.

As we stand now, I have little say of when how or if the guides are published. I put the on the list, sometimes they are published, sometimes not. I don't have direct control over it and am sick of nagging Elly. The time frame is so long I can't give you any better answer than that. Guides are published sporadically, updates even less.

The only thing I do have a good bit of control over is the sticky, which includes EVERY guide people asked to put in. I have made several threads asking for guides and you haven't asked. If you don't ask to put it in, what can I do? I will still include either of them in the sticky, you just have never asked.

DON'T BLAME ME FOR NOT DOING WHAT I CANNOT DO.

Honestly, I am sick of hearing yuo both ***** and play the martyr. I have not wronged you, and if I did, GET THE HELL OVER IT. This petty vic/kaz *****fest is annoying. I don't care if you don't like me, don't like the way I moderate, or god forbid don't like that I play paladins and barbs. Get over it or get the **** out.

Garbad

P.S. Btw, I have nothing to do with the random acts of moderation that go on from time to time around here. Lets just say some people don't like some things that go on around here, including the ot and certian links.

[mepersoner]

Your guide and meps were not on that list for 2 reasons -- you didn't put them on the list and your guides are 09. Both have you have also commented saying you planned an update, which i am still waiting on.
Actually I'd like to point out that my guide was around for about seven months before 1.10 came out and Victus's guide even longer than mine, and we both asked that it be submitted to the SC.

...and updates take time.

[VictusMetuo]

The reason I haven't updated my guide is mainly because of this situation going on now combined with the 1.09 situation. Honestly why would I want to waste my time, Garbad? If it took 5min to update, I would do it, but no it will take a good amount of time. And to say they all got published other than EB's is untrue, unless Kaz's doesn't count. I sat down several times to work on updating it, but I think to myself, what's the point? I mean some Chinese site has more interest in it than this one, even though they don't give me credit. Regardless, I'm not really a part of these forums anymore.

And as for the guides in the forum, people asked for some 1.09 guides including mine, but you just said no it's out of date. Why would I bother asking then? I made the guide thread for you and didn't include it because it wasn't "wanted". It was unstickied by you, and the sad thing is there were a lot of dueling strats in there which could still be utilized in there for 1.10. As for the 1.09 SC, we both submitted them and asked for them in there, I even sent updates to her myself. Though, that probably all got deleted.

And as for getting sick of me, I have posted 4 times now with this post in the last 2 or more months. I avoid posting even when people say stuff about me that you let slide. But even when I did post these few it's not all this "trolling and flaming" you claim I always do. And I will get over you wronging me when you get over your issues with me. It's not that I don't like you, it's you annoy me a ton now. I used to be in the "Yay For Garbad" Club, but that was 1.09 which is outdated now. There's been too many changes to Garbad Skills, Synergies, and Builds. Guess the old one was somewhat inferior now? NT I need to find my revert to 1.09 file.

PS I am sick of you blaming me for all your problems and ch/forum ones.

[Soepgroente]

Let's change the build name to Flaming Garbad O_O

[Sim.The.GoSu]

........o_O

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Honestly why would I want to waste my time, Garbad?
Fine, then stop wasting my time complaining about it. Update it and its in, forget it thats fine too. One way or the other, stop talking and either get over it or leave.

It was unstickied by you
Wrong. Don't blame me for what I don't do. That thread was unsticked by another mod who didn't like certian links and I risk thier wrath by putting it up anyhow. I have NEVER removed/deleted any sticky or guide thread (other than the fenris clone deal).

And to say they all got published other than EB's is untrue, unless Kaz's doesn't count.
Again, beyond my control. "It in the process" is all I am ever told. I got tired of nagging. PM elly to get an ETA. It will get done when it gets done, I submitted all the guides at the same time, Elly just hasn't done it. Don't believe me, submit it yourself and see.

I will get over you wronging me when you get over your issues with me. It's not that I don't like you, it's you annoy me a ton now.
Issues with you?!? Vic, I have gone out of my way to avoid banning you. You are a troll. Look at how you react to stuff and show me ANYONE on the forums who gets away with more? Rather than having issues with you, I have bent over backwards to try and be understanding and forgiving.

I have time and time again given you a break for past contributions, but whether you think I wronged you or not GET OVER IT. Every time you do post you have one thought only -- Boo hoo I am such a martyr. I was so wronged by garbad not publishing my guide and then not dual banning joe and me for flaming.

I honestly don't care if I annoy you. I believe I treated you as fairly as possible. I have gone out of my way to give you chances, explain myself, and give you benefit of the doubt.

Lets contrast that to you and Kaz. Rather than coming to talk to me, you let things fester, actively insult me behind my back, and play the public martyr when you can. You have NEVER attempted to contact me and explain yourself or ask why, you either quit and let kaz come and talk to me or have a public drama fest.

The person who is causing this problem is you Vic. YOU need to let it go or leave for good. YOU need to learn not to react to trollbait, even from Joe. This whole mess started over a couple of misunderstandings, but the reason it keeps going is you. I'm tired of hearing about it and putting up with you trolling, insulting me, then playing the martyr.

The choice is simple, get over it or don't come back.

Garbad

[Salo]

This is going to piss more people off, but I have to say it:

the SC is overfilled with boring and obvious builds, half should be deleted, easy.

kaz's flaming rabies SHOULD be in it, I feel. the extensive stuff on elemental druids, eh, shouldnt be

get a lot of skills
get fcr
pwn n00bs

shrug? stuff like that, both fire and air. not really Strategy, more like, hey, I built this one sided guy and he rocks at his one sided thing. not bad at all for most, but the sc I feel is a timeless thing. Like builds that explained stuff like overlord vs the other minion stuff on necro's on 108-109. really redundant to have as basic guides, fine and good for stickies.

strategy compendium should give a thorough knowledge of the skills and how to use them in all situations pvm and pvp. not like getz my uber stuff and be l33t sorts, we all know that works if you try it.

[VictusMetuo]

It wouldn't be in, you gave me your word last time.

You did too unsticky the 1.09 guides thread. Ask anyone else and they will tell you that you did. Maybe you don't remember, but you did.

Why PM her? She didn't reply to me before, so why would she now?

Bent over backwards for me? No Garbad, the only person that has wanted me banned was you. So it's your inner struggle combined with other people talking you out of it. That or your other lackies like Joe or Souless. Joe gets away with so much more, as does Jake who is a return bannee. Then there's your lackees who you let say stuff about me all the time. There's no problem with me, only in your opinion or of the opinion of the people that cause just as many problems.

Insult you behind your back? You want to know what that said then Garbad? Fine, my profile said: Do you know why Sikkim is such a defensive Charger? It's because he dropped the soap one too many times in front of Garbad. Oh big whoopdeedoo, you people always tell jokes and make fun of each other. Don't see why it's always bad when I do it. I was going to tell you all about that one day when I came back from eating.

And you want to know why I don't go to you with my problems with you or anything? Because you think I always just try to cause problems and it's falling on deaf ears. Frankly I doubt you'd give me the time of day. I can't talk to you because you have a biased opinion on everything I say. So what do I do, I have people post my opinions most of the time, and no it isn't always Kaz. Maybe if I could come to you or post here without all the bull I get, I would. Even so it's not like you wanted to deal with our "issues" in private either, just shown in public that we have differences and you think I am this huge problem. I won't bother saying anything to you unless you show that you have interest and aren't just going to be like omg you are so mean or saying I am just trolling any time I post. You know I tried to come back and give an opinion and thoughts on issues without "trolling", but it's the same thing from you and all these people. Regardless, you know/knew where to find me, not like you ever made an effort.

So I will get over it when you get over it and so do the rest of your cronies. And if you can't get over it, don't come back or say anything.

[Salo]

the problem garbad had with his dude is the lack of fire damage i feel

OS is a waste if you go head on with someone. it can die, often does, not something to rely upon.

max more fire stuff for claws, thats how you kill.

BUT, i do agree that isnt the best build for dueling. I think it is kinda weak. i tried making one work, but was spending more on trades and perfect gear than anyone else that could equal me in strength. really, walking around killing works for pally's. otherwise, its casters. ww barbs kinda destroyed me. supposedly they shouldnt have but um, they swing REALLY wide so, they destroyed my chance of getting a close shot. I would go with polearms only if this build were to work, the up and close tit-for-tat is a bit difficult to land for some reason im not sure of.

i had the 110 ias 180 AR phase blade, 8 gc's, no OS (general duels, this get knocked out before you knew what happened without teleporting), and like, well i think the rabies hurt more than the FC did at level 86.

i just couldnt connect the shots. I had enigma, jalal's, 224/20 raven, shaeld SS, verdungo's, IK gloves, waterwalks, and a Mara's for hell, plus all the gear for casters.

I can say though that against casters, if I put more runwalk on and used the terrain, I could actually tag them from time to time, which was insta death.

if you could teleport with this build it would do sick and evil things, but as it stands, its kinda a slug in the moor. :(

I like the build, but it just needs something else to it. im not sure what that is though. I used a prebuff of that elite stick that gives enchant too, my AR was through the rough but, not much came to fruition connection-wise.

[mepersoner]

My guide isn't online anymore. I have it on a text file, luckily someone from the druid forum saved it.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

No Garbad, the only person that has wanted me banned was you.
If I wanted you banned you would be. God knows you have given me plenty of reasons.

It wouldn't be in, you gave me your word last time. Why PM her? She didn't reply to me before, so why would she now?
If you feel fatalistic, then don't bother? If you want it published, do it? Either way drop the grudge.

And you want to know why I don't go to you with my problems with you or anything? Because you think I always just try to cause problems and it's falling on deaf ears. Regardless, you know/knew where to find me, not like you ever made an effort.
How am I supposed to contact you when I didn't know? If YOU have a problem, YOU bring it up. I had no idea you and kaz were had issues untill you had a public cryfest that got out of hand. I never knew. You never said anything until you were well past upset and convinced I had some vendetta against you and your guide. I don't. Call me oblivious, but I assume people will tell me if they have a problem.

You still think I am baised towards joe or whoever, but I am not. I don't like banning anyone. Everyone gets upset from time to time, especially when debating rules, etc. Because I deliberately set up a system in CH where people are intended to argue for and against rules, etc (and the fact many duelers have naturally huge egos), I try to be as liberal as I can rather than smacking the ban stick down at every opportunity, especially when a person is repentant. I usually will lock threads, warn, and let cooler heads prevail. It generally works and allows everyone to get thier say in without banning left and right.

>So I will get over it when you get over it and so do the rest of your cronies.
>and if you can't get over it, don't come back or say anything.

Nope, not how it works. I still to this day try to treat you fairly. I have still offered to talk privately, submit your guide again, or whatever else. I have made plenty of attempts to give you a second chance. Philosphical differences, perhaps. They are also irrelevant. I doubt too many people can accuse me of flaming people who disagree with me. At this point, I am sick of the drama.

And btw, perhaps you missed the thread where I banned both soul and joe?

Garbad

@Mep

Post it and I'll add it to my sig.

[mepersoner]

It's not formatted how it should be now, needs some work.

http://www.mepersoner.netfirms.com/Pages/wolf_09.htm

[Kirsty]

Everyone gets upset from time to time, especially when debating rules, etc. Because I deliberately set up a system in CH where people are intended to argue for and against rules, etc (and the fact many duelers have naturally huge egos), I try to be as liberal as I can rather than smacking the ban stick down at every opportunity, especially when a person is repentant. I usually will lock threads, warn, and let cooler heads prevail. It generally works and allows everyone to get thier say in without banning left and right.I seem to recall that the last four times when Vic actually posted in the CH forum after having been silent for over a month, you got all over him by saying he was whining and complaining too much. Those posts however had the most well-versed considerations for pvp balance that I've read in a long while. Sure they were a bit flavoured with comments on the behaviour of certain people in the CH forum, but not unrightfully so.
As far as I can backtrack you haven't given him much slack at all, not in the CH forums, nor in the latest posts on the druid forum. This is something you two have dragged on for long enough now and I think you both need to chill out pronto. Stop saying Vic is trolling and whining and Vic, don't go overboard, because now you really are pushing it a bit.


I doubt too many people can accuse me of flaming people who disagree with me. At this point, I am sick of the drama.You create a lot of drama yourself by certian actions that are supposed to be funny. For one thing, the whole West vs East thing has gone on far enough now.
Other than that I've seen you fake-flame people several times throughout multiple threads in an attempt to be funny.
What's more worrying is that whenever certain suggestions on nerfs were accepted (like your precious paladins) or when CH threads went into the wrong direction you do the following. Lock, delete and make a new thread with the excuse that the old thread got out of hand.
There also seem to be appearing many suggestions that have never been discussed on the forum at all, but were accepted anyway after maybe half a week discussion where not everyone had been able to give their input.

Certain notifications of ambiguity were/are never resolved either and there are some clearly unnecessary imbalancing rules for certain subclasses and hybrid builds that are always skipped when discussed or brought up. Either that, or it is defended by another one of those bullcrap posts of "oh, but if you stack so and so many resistance to counter facets or conviction in team duels and use absorb or +max gear you can negate the damage to 500". Something not always possible for many hybrid builds if I may say so.

Added to that, there is always the part where you don't reply to large portions of posts or questions and where you skip important parts of the conversation... one example is that you've seemingly deliberately skipped plenty of my posts about balance in the CH forums, which I derived from your replies to everyone in posts above and below mine, but never to mine.
In this thread alone you've skipped thread/reply parts from about 4 to 5 people (parts of salo, kaz, vic, mep and the quesion of sim). You could at least say "I read that" because people will obviously get the feeling that they are being ignored or that those parts of the thread is conveniently skipped.

And btw, perhaps you missed the thread where I banned both soul and joe?You banned him from where? Bnet? The problem in question is on the forums, not Bnet. Those people are on West, how can we notice such bannings? Souless said he didn't even know so apparently it didn't even work well.

Moreover you shouldn't even have to make threads about having banned people. Whatever got into you?


Lastly about threads being submitted into the SC. When I was compiling the update of my 1.09 subclass overview for the SC Elly was helpful every step of the way. At the time she even asked me if I had frontpage so I could help her format more guides and submit them onto the Compendium. I didn't, still don't have Win2000 though so I was unable to aid her, but nonetheless a few days after she said she had about 5 people willing to help (and who actually helped too with 4 of the guides that I know of), but she had no guides to put on there.
I've given her input on how well several guides were at the time and during several months after I had scanned multiple 1.09 guides. In the amazon forum she added all the stickied and linked guides, even the ones not really that promising which I told her, but she said it may give people some alternate ideas. She even updated the FAQ a few times when needed, not only on the amazon forum but also on several of the other forums.
Those FAQs and guides were submitted far after the druid guide 'problems' so I don't understand anything about the past inability to submit druid guides. My only guess is that perhaps you didn't communicate with her very well or she didn't fully understand the meaning of things.



Now about your flaming rabies, I suggest you act a little bit more professional. Do as Sim and Kaz suggested... read the thread, re-read the guide, post your full stats and do not just complain about them.

[Dimoak]

All vs. Garb. I'd back him up but eh.

Garb, I think the main problem is you're used to chars like FoH and windy that will kill easily, and when you get a less powerful build you think you did something wrong. Even with godly gear/skill you can't make every build own.

[mepersoner]

Just gear actually.

/joke

Wow Kirsty you really torn into him with facts.

[Dimoak]

Just gear actually.

/joke

Wow Kirsty you really torn into him with facts.
I was about to click submit and went back to add 'skill'. Rofl.

[mepersoner]

Suck up to the moderator more please.

[Dimoak]

Suck up to the moderator more please.
I just didn't want to look like I was coming down on him too.

[Salo]

well er, garbad is kinda cool and has done well with this forum for a long time.

id have to back him up in any way, even if i dont understand what is going on.

im that friend that beats up people for you, sometimes the wrong person, but at least the unknowing and confused bleeding guy got the message.

[electricblue]

guys
and girls :)

chill

you are forgetting that this is a game, 0's and 1's to be more precise.

whatever we do is for fun. of course being in a place such as sc or some other strategy place (i know that my guide is translated into 3 languages in different places) is a good thing but the essence is the fun I think.
at least for my part.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Sure they were a bit flavoured with comments on the behaviour of certain people in the CH forum, but not unrightfully so.
Not banning for his "flavor" was the leniency.

What's more worrying is that whenever certain suggestions on nerfs were accepted (like your precious paladins) or when CH threads went into the wrong direction you do the following. Lock, delete and make a new thread with the excuse that the old thread got out of hand.
Seperate issue, bring it up in CH. I obviously disagree, but you can bring this up there if you feel the need.

Added to that, there is always the part where you don't reply to large portions of posts or questions and where you skip important parts of the conversation... You could at least say "I read that" because people will obviously get the feeling that they are being ignored or that those parts of the thread is conveniently skipped.
I always read every post regarding a rule opinion. I can't respond or comment to them all; I don't want to spend that much time and/or dominate the discussion that much. I consider and vote based on my experince and the arguements. I'm sure you can find times I changed my mind if you look.

I understand if someone feels overlooked, hence the public voting. Even if you think I as an individual ignored your argument, the mods very, very rarely override a public vote (I can think of 3 times in 2 years?).

I don't respond to some of your arguments (and no offense) because some of them in my opinion are not at all the way I experience the game. You and Mep in particular have (in my mind) extremely optimistic views of the chances of underpowered variants and of the ability of "skill" to compensate for poor gear.

A recent example of this is mep talking about how wolves were overpowered in 76. To me, this is crazy. Not only can I see reasons on paper why this can't be (comparing runwalk speed, dmg, life, etc, etc) but I also didn't see wolves dominate games (nor have I spoken with anyone else who thinks they did). I dueled personally with wolves, against wolves, with mepersoner, against mepersoner (and you Kirsty) and just don't think thats the case.

I don't comment all the time because I leave it to others to discern who is correct and because if I do, it can turn into a flame/ego war.

You banned him from where? Bnet? The problem in question is on the forums, not Bnet. Souless said he didn't even know so apparently it didn't even work well.
It was from CH, and technically I didn't ban them, as I never do. I simply told blert I thought they should be banned. Soul was never actually banned, but would have been except we decided we needed a more public warning before we started banning for incidental and minor stuff.

Minor point, just showing you I will ban people I know and people who are on my friends list. I have done it many times.

Lastly about threads being submitted into the SC. When I was compiling the update of my 1.09 subclass overview for the SC Elly was helpful every step of the way.
Well, things have changed. Elly has just been super busy. When I ask to help, she says she is on it. I offered to let zharous do the frontpage stuff (I dont know how) but she didn't want to do that. After a few helpful offers and several pms asking how things are going, what can I do?

Elly isn't trying to be slow or screen anyone out, of course not. She simply doesn't put a lot of time into the SC. Some moderators even told her not to mess with it at all because threads were more effective anyhow and the SC was unecessary.

Another more general problem most of you have noticed is general interest (in particular among the veteran guide writers and mods) is waning and has been for a long time. It takes a long time to get someone actually interested in writing/updating a guide and longer for it to make the rounds. In several of the forums, the mods and veteran members are permanent afk.

The point -- there was some procedural misunderstandings that caused some guides to get in, some guides to come slowly, some not at all. It wasn't personal, wasn't malicious either by me or by Elly. If people had questions, they could have simply asked and I would have told them (as I did in several threads over the months!). This is not some kind of conspiracy by me to punish people and keep guides out or whatever, not at all.

Those FAQs and guides were submitted far after the druid guide 'problems' so I don't understand anything about the past inability to submit druid guides. My only guess is that perhaps you didn't communicate with her very well or she didn't fully understand the meaning of things.
Yes, as I said one of the big procedural flaws is gone. The thread makes it clear what guides are trying to be done by Elly. The problem is for whatever reason sometimes she just skips some or forgets or takes whatever. You can believe me or not, but all the guides (from kaz's down to the fire druid guide) were all posted at the same time in the same post, it just took that long for her to do them all.

The wolf and bear guides were not submitted simply because they were not on the list. I was and am waiting for updates. Its as simple as that. There is no plot to rob you of your credit for your guides, no ridiculous theory I am trying to screen out certian hybrids, etc. I am shocked you people could even come up with a crazy idea like this, much less without asking me about it.

As for not posting in Kaz's thread, I felt like making a new thread and I did. I didn't whine or trash the build, just asked for improvement. I did list my gear and build. You are reading way too much into this thread.

Garbad

[Forcefeedback]

Heh, I see law school or w/e has paid off. :lol:

The outlining of the situation of the build was put a little negatively though... like, this sucks so bad how the hell can they call this a PvP build.

It wouldn't have been that good for this to break out in Kaz's guide thread, would sidetrack people a little too much. :cheesy:

[Kirsty]

Not banning for his "flavor" was the leniency.There are so many people that add more flavour to their post than Vic did. He simply used it to point out that balance in CH isn't going anywhere fast without some rigorous changes in the behaviour of some of the members and he was clearly correct.

Seperate issue, bring it up in CH. I obviously disagree, but you can bring this up there if you feel the need. Separate issue, same thing.

I consider and vote based on my experince and the arguements. I'm sure you can find times I changed my mind if you look.

I don't respond to some of your arguments (and no offense) because some of them in my opinion are not at all the way I experience the game. You and Mep in particular have (in my mind) extremely optimistic views of the chances of underpowered variants and of the ability of "skill" to compensate for poor gear.

A recent example of this is mep talking about how wolves were overpowered in 76. To me, this is crazy. Not only can I see reasons on paper why this can't be (comparing runwalk speed, dmg, life, etc, etc) but I also didn't see wolves dominate games (nor have I spoken with anyone else who thinks they did). I dueled personally with wolves, against wolves, with mepersoner, against mepersoner (and you Kirsty) and just don't think thats the case.

I don't comment all the time because I leave it to others to discern who is correct and because if I do, it can turn into a flame/ego war.
Only very sporadically do you change your mind and I've seen you revert back to your previous opinion more often. The public votes aren't that effective either since people generally vote before they even read the comments that people have added throughout the thread.

Mep and I may be extremely optimistic, but we've shown enough times that it's true. With some thought on the dueling and crappy gear you can still be very competitive and win. Well.. lately I'm bored out by the dueling characters that I see in the games so I don't bother much anymore. Half of my posts aren't about that however, but contain ideas on how to balance out hybrids and put limitations on the obvious fluke characters.
Skipped posts I made were for example about:
- charge+vigor that still hasn't been voted on
- cold sorcs can still use snowclash and nightwing for no real reason and other characters don't have the same exceptions
- hybrid rules for assassins and necromancers are no good.
- the list goes on.

Wolves... no wait, pretty much any druid was on the top of 76L, but that could be because most 76L was also druid forum inhabitant. I also found wolves on the slightly high side of duels. I never saw you on 76, saw you only 4 times in CH and was only apalled by the gear you had, though not by the damage output of it.

Commenting on everything doesn't make it a flamewar or egotrip at all if you make certain you don't give proper reason to it.

It was from CH, and technically I didn't ban them, as I never do. I simply told blert I thought they should be banned. Soul was never actually banned, but would have been except we decided we needed a more public warning before we started banning for incidental and minor stuff.
Minor point, just showing you I will ban people I know and people who are on my friends list. I have done it many times.So you didn't ban them, but did unban them... the thread makes no sense. The public warning is in the rules, you shouldn't need a separate post for it.


I suppose we'll never know what happened with the SC. All I know is that there have been no problems in the amazon forum for submitting any guides. They've all been considered, graded and those graded well were added.


As for not posting in Kaz's thread, I felt like making a new thread and I did. I didn't whine or trash the build, just asked for improvement. I did list my gear and build. You are reading way too much into this thread.You know build feedback should go into the general discussion to keep everything in one place. You also know that Kaz checks his thread every time there is a new post on it. There are enough people reposting and rethreading already.

You didn't list your rings so we have to guess that it's probably a raven and a carrion wind.
You want suggestions on attack rating and defense rating but don't list them upon request by Sim.
You didn't list exact skillpoint distribution so it's just guessing.
Did you go with life, blocking or both.

It's not always obvious which considerations a poster had. You could have maxed poison poppy for all I know and use stone synergy and firestorm to get fireclaws damage... you could also have maxed a few fireskills and use carrion wind and the stone is just for the bonuses, not for the synergy. I suppose you use both synergies from stone and carrion wind, but without telling we can't know that since it's not mandatory for the build.



What I read into this thread is that you're being a stupid old fart with kaz and vic. I already told them to cool down on Bnet and your posts are as agressive as theirs so you need to chill out too. I also thought you needed to hear how certain things came to be so I added the reasons.
1. partially by your habit of skipping large yet important portions of posts.
It can go the wrong way very often.
2. the at times agressively replying back when it's not deserved.
It in turn causes people to talk back at you.
3. the seemingly lack of listening to other people or not acknowledging their input at all
It shades credibility
4. using comments that since you're an mod can be understood very ambigiously
5. seemingly keeping a grudge just like the people you accuse of having a grudge

You put a lot of effort into the forums and into CH and I know it's hard work keeping everyone in line, but lately I've seen you muck up quite a few times. You must be exhausted sometimes and irritated by quite a lot of people, but you can't show that in your posts. Now lighten up and take a few days off if you have to. A lot of people are now agitated with you as well and they see you simply put as a big bully. It's not going to help that you hand them so many valid excuses since they won't accept them all, you know that. It certainly won't help that you try to put them in place every time because they get more defensive every time. You need to chill your moderation position and the posters themselves will relax in turn.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

There are so many people that add more flavour to their post than Vic did. He simply used it to point out that balance in CH isn't going anywhere fast without some rigorous changes in the behaviour of some of the members and he was clearly correct.
I doubt anyone has gotten away with more than vic, but even if they have, it only shows I have tried to treat him fairly. Simple fact, I don't like banning, especially a poster who has demonstrated his willingness to help and be productive. When this all first started, I just let it go thinking it would blow over. It hasn't yet, and at some point I have to stop giving second chances.

That goes for vic, joe, or anyone.

Only very sporadically do you change your mind and I've seen you revert back to your previous opinion more often.
Probably some truth to that, I am rarely swayed. I do also have a great deal of experience. Usually I only waver in areas regarding how much a nerf will hurt a class I don't personally play much (ie the necro nerf).

Again, not a critical issue I suppose, just to show its not as if I am rigging the votes, trashing down any argument I don't like, etc. Anyone can find rules that passed that I don't like, its just the way it is.

There is a difference in ideology between you, mep, and vic and me at this point, which is you believe more in balancing for variety and I prefer simplicity. Variety would be great if we could do it, but the gross inherent imbalances of 1.10 defy simple rules. At this point I would rather have mildly imbalanced duels with largely cookie cutters than no duels at all. Look at the outcry every time I propose a minor nerf now.

Mep and I may be extremely optimistic, but we've shown enough times that it's true. With some thought on the dueling and crappy gear you can still be very competitive and win.

Skipped posts I made were for example about:
- charge+vigor that still hasn't been voted on
- cold sorcs can still use snowclash and nightwing for no real reason and other characters don't have the same exceptions
- hybrid rules for assassins and necromancers are no good.
- the list goes on.

With all due respect, I have dueled with you and mep for some time, both in 09 and 1.10. I have east and west accts that people don't know are "Garbad" so I can duel without the reputation. Oddly, I am treated quite differently, especially by people like you and mep. You guys are optimistic and do ok, but I believe you overestimate the skill differential between you and other duels and also the impact of build. You two are not so much better than the other veteran duelers that your magic touch can make a weak dueler win, you win on average the same as everyone else would. This is evidenced by the fact you or mep are rarely the dominant dueler in any game, no matter what build you play.

Charge vigor WAS voted on and was clearly voted down, 3:1 margin IIRC. It was voted on in the original vote thread.

The snowclash thing was basically a matter of convience for the cold sorcs, and it has little if any effect on balance. We try to accomodate all chars top gear choices when planning nerfs (which is why runwalk is at 75, 120, etc).

The hybrid definition may not be perfect, but its better than any of the alternatives. The others were too complex, had too many loopholes, or failed to address the primary issue (speed). Least of the evils.

I actually commented several times my stance on all those issues, even if I directly didn't respond to your quote.

Wolves... no wait, pretty much any druid was on the top of 76L, but that could be because most 76L was also druid forum inhabitant. I also found wolves on the slightly high side of duels. I never saw you on 76, saw you only 4 times in CH and was only apalled by the gear you had, though not by the damage output of it.
There were a ton of wolves in CH, arguably more than any other class at some points, but that was interest, not balance. Wolves didn't dominate duels, they tended to lose more often than not.

Simple fact is a cookie necro played by an average dueler will beat a godly variant played by a pro veteran most times. I say this having witnessed first hand both of you try and prove otherwise. It just doesn't work. Even reading mep's guide the dueling strategy theme is "rely on your opponent having a vastly inferior knowledge of the game/tactics and you may win."

If you were apalled by my east gear, you have some seriously low standards. My east paladin cost a grand total of 3 runes + freebies. He has no switch gear of any kind and only can attack with one of the weakest attacks in the game (foh).

Despite this, I won probably 70% of my team games (giving credit to the team, a foh is always a support char) and convinced a spawn of easties to try foh (which they are now discarding for the more versatile libs, as I predicted). I think my 3 runes were well invested. I definately held my own, against you, against pansy, against kaz, with a build that no one can claim is above average. To pretend otherwise smacks of bias.

So you didn't ban them, but did unban them... the thread makes no sense. The public warning is in the rules, you shouldn't need a separate post for it.
Different moderators enforce with a different standard of strictness. Mepersoner was more tolerant of certian people and certian things than I would have been and that Blert is. Thats fine, and that was his call. The thread is to warn people some of the things that were ok no longer are.

Specifically, Mep would allow swearing in frustration after duels, blert is putting a stop to that. Mep also allowed semiracist behavor (against my objection I might add), blert is stopping that.

I suppose we'll never know what happened with the SC. All I know is that there have been no problems in the amazon forum for submitting any guides. They've all been considered, graded and those graded well were added.
No, you do know. I have told you and you have no reason to doubt me. What would I possibly have to gain by trying to keep guides out of the SC? Why would I go through this charade when I could simply say I don't want to publish it? I can easily keep things off the list, I just can't force them to be published.

I think the problem is vic in particular is assuming some kind of ulterior motive when there is none whatsoever.

What I read into this thread is that you're being a stupid old fart
o_o

You put a lot of effort into the forums and into CH and I know it's hard work keeping everyone in line, but lately I've seen you muck up quite a few times. You must be exhausted sometimes and irritated by quite a lot of people, but you can't show that in your posts.
Perhaps, and my tolerance for this is wearing thin. As the months have worn on, the great majority of my hassles in CH are coming from a few specific sources -- vic, kaz, mepersoner, and you. I am getting sick of the drama.

I am getting to the point where I don't care if 4 people think I am a bully, in particular when they won't listen in any case. I don't care if you think I underrepresented you, don't like druids, discriminate against you, am an *** personally or whatever else. Even if I did (which I didn't), get over it or leave. I would rather lose 4 valued posters and duelers and people I once considered friends than hear another 9+ months of this bs.

I am drawing the line in the sand, get over it or leave, I won't put up with this any more.

Garbad

[Kirsty]

Okay, nice post. I'll reply to the parts that I don't fully agree with/have comments on.

There is a difference in ideology between you, mep, and vic and me at this point, which is you believe more in balancing for variety and I prefer simplicity. Variety would be great if we could do it, but the gross inherent imbalances of 1.10 defy simple rules. At this point I would rather have mildly imbalanced duels with largely cookie cutters than no duels at all. Look at the outcry every time I propose a minor nerf now.The 76L rules allowed a greater deal of diversity than we have now in CH and they were not too complicated or difficult to understand. There was the cast rate limit on assassins that made the desired difference to bridge the gaps and there were similar limitations towards other subclasses. I thought 76L was very well thought out and you guys did a great job on it.
Honor is a lot more loose with the rules and at this moment in time does not really allow hybrids very well. It's now more pressed for gear as well and in my opinion 76L didn't have the problem to similar extent. Most suggestions I make are to rebalance certain hybrids in the hopes that gradually dueling can contain hybrids like before.

With all due respect, I have dueled with you and mep for some time, both in 09 and 1.10. I have east and west accts that people don't know are "Garbad" so I can duel without the reputation. Oddly, I am treated quite differently, especially by people like you and mep. You guys are optimistic and do ok, but I believe you overestimate the skill differential between you and other duels and also the impact of build. You two are not so much better than the other veteran duelers that your magic touch can make a weak dueler win, you win on average the same as everyone else would. This is evidenced by the fact you or mep are rarely the dominant dueler in any game, no matter what build you play.Those duels against me are complete nonsense I'm afraid.
I have had an account on West for quite some time, but that was only during the classic days and I never dueled. The account was Houben btw, my last name, but I'm sure that doesn't ring a bell. I hadn't even spent any time on this forum either, so that canot be it.
In 1.08 I had an account on East very shortly and several accounts on Europe. I never dueled on East during 1.08 and 1.09 either, and on Europe only public and open druidpk. I haven't been in 76L on East at all, I only came in once or twice to see 76L in progress but didn't participate.
I started active East dueling when Kaz got me into Honor only several months ago. I met you only a few nights, never saw you again and I know all the other people/accounts whom I've been fighting.

The only difference between me and most duelers is that I use the non-conventional underrated builds and I use crap gear with that. Indeed I rarely dominate duels, although there have been a few games where I excelled. Contrary to most duelers I do it for the challenge of taking an underrated or hybrid character and getting something like a 50-50 score with it. I don't duel to own or to rule or to be the uber best forever and ever. If that were the case I would just make a caster like just about everyone else.

Charge vigor WAS voted on and was clearly voted down, 3:1 margin IIRC. It was voted on in the original vote thread.link?

The snowclash thing was basically a matter of convience for the cold sorcs, and it has little if any effect on balance. We try to accomodate all chars top gear choices when planning nerfs (which is why runwalk is at 75, 120, etc).No class has exceptions in absorb/max wear except the cold sorceress who already does enough damage. You can of course argue that stacking resistance to 300% will negate a large portion of her damage but that's the case for every elemental character, so I still don't know why this exception is active. Snowclash and Nightwing combination is simply not necessary for them. People can look at the items and think up the best solution to incorporate only 1 absorb item. Cold sorceresses should not be an exception.

The hybrid definition may not be perfect, but its better than any of the alternatives. The others were too complex, had too many loopholes, or failed to address the primary issue (speed). Least of the evils.

I actually commented several times my stance on all those issues, even if I directly didn't respond to your quote.Yes, you did comment on most of the hybrid rebalancing posts, but many of the considerations suggested, not only mine, were just skipped. Not only by you but by other regulars as well. After a while I just gave up and decided to wait until the subject came up again.
Examples... Just look at my bone/poison thread. The hybrid only has a 6th of the bonemancer damage yet gets the full nerfs a bonemancer's got. Resulting from that he's not the full power of a poisonmancer either dut to the simple fact that in order to come close to most caster duelers he'll need +max resistance or absorb because his life is too low to take more than 2 hits if he doesn't have it. Plus with the run limitation he won't be able to avoid attacks as easily as he should and he won't be able to come into range that easily since the run caps are the same, let alone hit with his nova or dagger.
I have tried to compensate in several duels by going dagger, 95% run, teeth and nova, which gave decent results but even that's hardly balanced. The only way to get a certain hit in is to let people approach but most duelers are casters and never approach anyway.

Doc's assassin suggestions is another example. I thought his 3 or 4 different ideas on balancing hybrids was far better than what's active right now. I'm still going to give a hybrid a try soon enough and see whether I can come up with some more specific tweaks to the rule.

If you were apalled by my east gear, you have some seriously low standards. My east paladin cost a grand total of 3 runes + freebies. He has no switch gear of any kind and only can attack with one of the weakest attacks in the game (foh).

Despite this, I won probably 70% of my team games (giving credit to the team, a foh is always a support char) and convinced a spawn of easties to try foh (which they are now discarding for the more versatile libs, as I predicted). I think my 3 runes were well invested. I definately held my own, against you, against pansy, against kaz, with a build that no one can claim is above average. To pretend otherwise smacks of bias.I've seen the trading thread and although I didn't see your gear, you did mention that you trade for all those items for your mage and boasted about 5k hammers and 8k FoH or something alike... probably the other way around. It compiled far more than 3 runes in gear alone.
If you came in with a character invested with less than that, then good job on you, but at least then I can understand why I wasn't impressed by the damage.

You're quite mistaken that your FoH paladin was the onset of more similar characters being created. They were already present in abundance well before you created the mage. At least 5 if not more. Many of the regulars created anti-characters for it which was why they weren't played often anymore. I myself was stuck by using my resist lightning aura most of the time to aid my party rather than using my holy shock aura, since otherwise they would all die off too fast. You only got one final hit on me but only due to the damage contributions of your party, especially from the cold sorceress that was on your team and FA getting some good hammers in. Party balance in CH games is incredibly hard to find.


No, you do know. I have told you and you have no reason to doubt me. What would I possibly have to gain by trying to keep guides out of the SC? Why would I go through this charade when I could simply say I don't want to publish it? I can easily keep things off the list, I just can't force them to be published.Mind you. Because everything went okay for the amazon forum I don't actually have a reason to fully believe you either. The knife cuts both ways, so I'm keeping an open mind about it.

Perhaps, and my tolerance for this is wearing thin. As the months have worn on, the great majority of my hassles in CH are coming from a few specific sources -- vic, kaz, mepersoner, and you. I am getting sick of the drama.

I am getting to the point where I don't care if 4 people think I am a bully, in particular when they won't listen in any case. I don't care if you think I underrepresented you, don't like druids, discriminate against you, am an *** personally or whatever else. Even if I did (which I didn't), get over it or leave. I would rather lose 4 valued posters and duelers and people I once considered friends than hear another 9+ months of this bs.

I am drawing the line in the sand, get over it or leave, I won't put up with this any more.You just don't get it do you? We are not the only people who disagree with some of your stances, just the 4 of the 7 or 8 who actually speak up. Well I'm not going to try and explain it again. You can deal with our presence your way. I'll just shut up like a good girl and refrain from posting if that's what you want.

[Naruto-luoxuanwan]

how fun.

garbad's attempt to ask for suggestions instead lead to a series of arguments. sad..

[Sim.The.GoSu]

if you knew what was going on, you'd understand, but you dont, so ya.

[cpg]

does it matter? he skipped over almost every post asking for his gear skills stats and suggestions towards it. he might even skip this one.

garbad, it seems to me you're using stone for synergies...then again im assuming alot about your build. is he using carrion bug also? is this for clan honor? what rings are you using?

try to go for the suggested route of enigma + maras. that would definatly boost your damage and overall effectiveness of your build. try this:

enigma
jalals
maras
carrion wind
raven

from this setup you will gain +4 skills, 30 resists, +5 to all stats 45 runwalk (which opens up spots for 20 life scs) 8% damage reduction, strength based on lvl, carrion wind synergy (freeing up 20 skills) 5 to all stats. compare this too high defense, 50 fhr, 30 runwalk 25 dex. the obvious route is the one recommended in kaz's guide. oak is no good to max in teams since the first and obvious choice of attack and it dies very easily. your goal should be about 33k rabies and 10k fireclaws. if you're having trouble vs melee definatly try nagelic ring+ammy combo or hsaru combo. hope this helps.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Oh god, I typed up a probably 3 page response then lost it to forum database error

Garbad

[Garbad_the_Weak]

@all

I have not responded to the original question because this has eclipsed it. I might get back to it later.

The 76L rules allowed a greater deal of diversity than we have now in CH and they were not too complicated or difficult to understand.
Yes. I agree.

However, there were some fundamental differences. Zharous and I had literally years of dueling experience when we sat down to make the rules. We had a perfect voting balance (1 melee, 1 caster, 1 conservative, 1 liberal) and we agreed up front on the fundamentals (no dupes, promote melee and variety when possible). We were also both willing to invest our own time and money to test, rebuild, and so forth. We were willing to challenge every assumption duelers make and came up with some radical suggestions.

I know you euros had this before, but the idea of runwalk caps was extremely outlandish and unpopular on west/east. Banning ga, teleport, and ww (at the time) was laughed at, it was foolish in the eyes of the establishment. However, as time went on, people realized the rules actually were fun and effective and 76 boomed.

The initial people who joined 76 tended to think a lot like Zharous and me. We began to discuss and debate, and generally the changes were for the good. More perspective and experience never hurts. As time went on, more and more people joined and the voting majority changed. People began getting more concerned with not changing things and avoiding nerfs to their specific build. In addition, a minor rule change could have a large impact on a lot of people.

About this time, the personal accusations against me reached their current level. At first, I was accused of trying to make 76 unduped for personal financial gain (I had a large collection of legit fine vitas, ed/ias, etc). Later, I was accused of bias towards druids (people stupidly assumed I still played them most), and currently the paladin fixation (I was even accused of bias in the 26% limit because this would somehow allow me to profit trade?!?). I do enjoy paladins, but I also have a proven track record of doing what I think is best for balance overall.

As always, I have argued out my position with everyone else, and votes are public as always. As always, I choose the best decision taking in all factors (my personal opinion, the vote, practical realities), regardless of its impact on me. I seriously doubt anyone can find bias in my actions, in particular given I deliberately and purposefully encourage debate (thereby minimizing my own vote/opinion). Think of how many times I have voted to nerfed my own duelers or boost chars I don’t play.

The latest two accusations of bias have come from me voting against nerfing FoH and Widow (both of which I play). I believe in both of those instances my reasoning has been held up by dueling over time. I make mistakes from time to time (ww may be the biggest example), but overall I think my reasoning and experience combine to make my votes pretty darn good. Remember it was me who created, pushed, or refined many of the fundamental rules of CH (no teleport, runwalk system, level caps, etc). The bias accusation is just annoying and petty, the whole system is set up to reduce the impact of one persons bias and opinions. Systematic bias, on the other hand….

The whole system of democracy is based on the premise that people with differing opinions will argue it out and reach a reasonable compromise. I accept this premise, and am a strong supporter of democracy. Currently, the membership of CH consistently votes for simple rules even at the expense of variety. Some of the CH members are ridiculously biased and vote only for what helps their build. I am not oblivious to this, but realized it is a flaw of a democratic system.

Some people will vote purely of out self interest, we can only hope people recognize this and vote for what’s best overall. Some times the majority will vote for something that’s stupid, biased, or just wrong despite the best arguments of everyone involved (I think they have on several occasions). This is just the way it is, we have to persuade through good arguments and testing, and finally just pure dueling if needs be.

At first, I was tempted to simply ignore what the vote was and assume all voting power to myself with input from those I knew and respected. Chances are, I could do a pretty good job of balance, similar to what we did in creating 76. The problem with this is it would be denying the opinions of the CH members to decide what rules they duel under.

Even with the recognition that many CH members are horribly biased, I can’t justify just screening out opinions I (or you) don’t like. I don’t like the way the majority votes at times, but we just have to influence where we can and live with the result. I believe the result will be better than any other system.

Think of the alternative. Suppose I simply declared what rules were as objectively as possible. I might do a good job, but I would lose the benefit of other perspectives and legitimate arguments, many of which are equally valid as my own. I would also stir people into revolt, no matter how objective I was. People have to be given a right to express their opinions, even if they are stupid. Hopefully the majority can judge well, and in general I think it does.

The voting on the rules is not my doing, it is the combined will of the CH members. You see the threads, you see the votes. Don’t blame me, it’s the working of democracy. If anything, high volume posters with good arguments have a disproportionate amount of power. You pushed for some things and lost, that’s just the way it is.

The majority has clearly spoken against more rules, they want certainty and simplicity at this point. Both you and I voted and argued against this. Now its time to see if we truly believe in democracy or if we only agree with it when we get our way :/

The only difference between me and most duelers is that I use the non-conventional underrated builds and I use crap gear with that. Indeed I rarely dominate duels, although there have been a few games where I excelled. Contrary to most duelers I do it for the challenge of taking an underrated or hybrid character and getting something like a 50-50 score with it
Ok, that’s fine and good. Now don’t act like playing variants and choosing to be poor gives you superior skill or moral superiority. It doesn’t. You wanted the challenge, you have it. Don’t expect us to change or complicated rules for you when the majority votes against it and it benefits only one person. The majority has on several occasions (and over my objections!!!) voted for simplicity rather than trying to balance variants.

I've seen the trading thread and although I didn't see your gear, you did mention that you trade for all those items for your mage and boasted about 5k hammers and 8k FoH or something alike... probably the other way around. It compiled far more than 3 runes in gear alone. If you came in with a character invested with less than that, then good job on you, but at least then I can understand why I wasn't impressed by the damage
You are confusing my west mage with my east templar. My west mage has 7.7k foh, 5.6k hammers, 2.7k life, is nearly perfect. He is one of the top palas on west and is my primary dueler (combined with my barb).

My east templar (foh only) cost a grand total of 3 runes (2 of which went towards making an enigma), has about 5k foh dmg, relatively low life, 18% dr, no switch gear, and most importantly no secondary attack. Hardly godly, but he did the job.

Party balance in CH games is incredibly hard to find
Yes, that’s true on east.

My observations of east dueling is that the imbalance tends to come from the players, not the rules. East has a much lower membership pool, and therefore fewer skilled duelers. Those experienced duelers also tend to play variants, so when teams get picked they are completely dominated by the few complete skilled duelers. Since there is often a wide disparity between teams and individuals, team duels get skewed.

On west, this is MUCH less the case, primarily because teams are usually full of 8 experienced and wealthy duelers. If one team gets skewed, we can repick, bring in someone new, or have someone get a new dueler. This makes for pretty darn close and competitive duels, even if a 3 necros wander in, etc.

West still has tons of melee btw, at least as much as east. We also have at least the same degree of innovation that east does, although west tends to focus on winning more than the fun of trying a different build. Part of this is standard of competition, a shaman or something just can’t win on west. West also manages to be relatively inclusive to outsiders (working on getting better), primarily though the personal funding of me, blert, and sol.

I think the best solution to this problem would be to get more members on east, not more rules. Hence my invitation to temple duelers. Temple duelers are typically experienced and wealthy duelers who fit very well in CH (although they need to learn the finer points of our rules, they are generally teachable). Paladins also tend to be much more balanced overall than other builds, because they can challenge the most pesky casters without being imbalanced overall. An influx of paladins would affect balance MUCH more favorably than an influx of trappers, for example.

I am convinced a general increase in membership and activity will help east’s balance problems more than rule changes. This will include east taking more steps to include outsiders into the “inner circle,” making it easy for them to adjust to our rules, and perhaps helping rush and level them like west does. It might also mean some of the veteran duelers need to have several “balancing” chars. I purposely keep around a barb (bo), my defensive templar (anti lit/cold/nec), and a zealot so I can be the balancing factor if need be. The dueler I bring into a game is often chosen because I think teams might get out of whack, etc and I enjoy playing them all.

I think you should at least TRY this before proposing a dramatic nerf that is against the majority vote.

We are not the only people who disagree with some of your stances, just the 4 of the 7 or 8 who actually speak up.
Actually, I disagree. Part of the reason I came to east was to see how widespread the discontent was. I don’t think it has much, if anything, to do with east/west or clan honor in general. It has to do specifically with a handful of veterans and another handful who are influenced by them.

You seem to generally feel slighted and underrepresented. You also seem to believe there is some kind of malice or whatever by me to undermine east, hurt you personally, or whatever. You are unhappy with the way votes have come out, don’t like the philosophy of CH, and blame it on me as an individual.

This is a mistake. You are not underrepresented, in fact you are probably overrepresented (considering I discuss changes with kaz and pansy, you tend to have high post count and some respect, etc). Reasonable people can disagree. You were simply outvoted. Regardless of my personal opinion, the results of polls are clear. I do disagree with you about certain things, but that’s not the primary issue. The issue is what the majority votes on. Blaming it on me is irrational when you can see the votes for yourselves.

That being said, losing you all would be a real loss and it would be a shame to see you go. You are all respected members and we value your input, as we always have. Your opinions tend to be well thought out and reasonable. That’s fine, and they are welcome. However, I would rather lose a handful of veterans than let this drama, backbiting, and whatnot continue.

The choice is simple -- drop the complaining about under representation, drop the discontent with me, stop exacerbating (or in reality, creating) the east west problems, stop the backbiting. Or simply leave. Its better for all of us if you make a choice. Deal with the reality of democracy and the way things are or chose to walk away. I am sick of hearing the drama and backbiting.

Garbad

[mepersoner]

There is a difference in ideology between you, mep, and vic and me at this point, which is you believe more in balancing for variety and I prefer simplicity. Variety would be great if we could do it, but the gross inherent imbalances of 1.10 defy simple rules.
I think you're confusing imbalance with a very different way of dueling. 1.10, even without CH rules, is much more balanced than 1.09. Every class has a build that can compete on an even level (and other builds that can compete at a slight disadvantage), the only weakness being those that can be over absorbed (wind druid, bone or poison necro, fire or cold or lightning sorc, whirl barb, trapsin, cs zon, templar or vindicator or liberator or mage are all on a pretty even level).

Charge vigor WAS voted on and was clearly voted down, 3:1 margin IIRC. It was voted on in the original vote thread.
The voting has changed since 1.09 I see. When I was head of west those votes were taken in as what the community wanted, but the mods made the final decision. It wouldn't matter if the votes were 90:1, if the mods thought that it would help balance, it would be voted in.

There were a ton of wolves in CH, arguably more than any other class at some points, but that was interest, not balance. Wolves didn't dominate duels, they tended to lose more often than not.
......No. Flat out no. I won well over 90% of my runs. There is no denying that. The only time that changed was when I experimented with other wolf builds, such as my all vita 2-handed wolf, he didn't do too well in most melee duels and was horrible in team duels because he couldn't do DR + resists at the same time well. With my real wolves in 76 I was pretty unstoppable except vs. barbs, WHO I BEAT A MAJORITY OF THE TIME. There was a reason I was saying I could beat barbs for awhile and that's because I had beaten all the other barbs in 76 that I had dueled. Then I dueled you and lost, dueled Sol and lost. Then I thought, oh, maybe I can't beat barbs, but then I remembered the advantage in gear and charms that you and Sol had over me. Wolves in 76 were for the most part played by poorer players, they could beat most any of the other classes 1 on 1. Barbs were the only class that this wasn't true for, and hell, it was for the most part true, I know that after I lost to Sol in a run of duels with my wolf Haldane was joking with me "you're making us wolves look bad mep!" and I told him "why don't you give it a try" and he promptly beat Sol 3 -1.

Specifically, Mep would allow swearing in frustration after duels, blert is putting a stop to that. Mep also allowed semiracist behavor (against my objection I might add), blert is stopping that.
Woah buddy. No, there's a reason that I'd go silent and wouldn't duel when that would happen. I didn't issue bans for that, but more often than not you would see the dueler leave the game after that stuff happened. It was either take some time out and leave or be banned. There's no reason for that discussion to go on where other people can see it. There's also no reason to ban for that, I understand that some people get frustrated when they lose at some things.

I also allowed cussing because that's just how some guys talk. As a moderator I thought that one should distinguish between cussing in anger, as an insult, and just in normal conversation.

I banned around 10 people for racist behavior (around half the people I banned at the beginning, which came out at either 19 or 20 people, then very few had to be banned after the first month). I temp banned Sol for racist behavior, and I let him back because he agreed to stop. He did, but I absolutely refused to ban him because he had a character named "wigger" that he had been dueling with and it hadn't been a problem.

Perhaps, and my tolerance for this is wearing thin. As the months have worn on, the great majority of my hassles in CH are coming from a few specific sources -- vic, kaz, mepersoner, and you. I am getting sick of the drama.
ME? I have been mostly unactive in CH as far as the forums and the dueling is concerned. The only "hassles" we've had is with the gear that disappears off my account without me being contacted first. No, telling me "I'm building a paladin" is not asking to take gear off my account. Could you name three things that I've hassled you over that concerned CH?

[mepersoner]

What the who said anyone was leaving? Don't be trying to get rid of us foo.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

I......No. Flat out no. I won well over 90% of my runs. There is no denying that.
I assume runs = duels, correct me if I am wrong.

Yes mep, I do deny you won 90% of your duels. I deny you won 60% of your duels. I can't think of a single team duel you dominated, I know you didn't dominate barbs, necs, zons, or sorcs. You were arguably one of the top 3 wolves in 76 tho. I have never heard anyone say (other than you) you dominated anywhere near the level you remember, and I sure don't remember it that way.

Harsh, perhaps, but thats the way it is.

Garbad

[TheKbob]

*sigh*

Some of you are a bit long winded when it comes to these matters.

I could say many a things I have witnessed, but most of you tend to just skip over my posts and label me whining for the most part.

I guess if I call you all ****heads and brought mothers into it I would get some attention.

I will leave you to your CH and such discussions. I try to add but it seems I am just ignored because I am not a regular, but just someone who joins ever now and then for kicks.

As for SC, I woke up one morning finding my guide in it, through no push at all by me. Either I have Dark Knight to thank for this, or some other mod, it doesn't seem like it should be all that hard really. My guide was so remote and such a varaint, not much different then that of Kaz's, that I never saw it making it into the SC.


Yet mine did, and so many other fine guides // writers that deserve it far more than I still sit here with their thumbs up their bums going why?

I miss Ragnarod... what a good chap he was.


I guess you guys have deep roots that we dont have back where Im from (good ol forum #18), but maybe everyone should listen to Kirsty, take a break and concur internal battles being fought now.


But, alas, what is a necro's words to druid ears...

/*sigh*

~Kbob

[Garbad_the_Weak]

The voting has changed since 1.09 I see. When I was head of west those votes were taken in as what the community wanted, but the mods made the final decision. It wouldn't matter if the votes were 90:1, if the mods thought that it would help balance, it would be voted in.
Thats true, it has become more and more democractic over time. Its still not a pure democracy, but its headed that way. The mod vote is more of a discussion now, we have only overridden the popular vote once since 1.10 came (iirc).

Garbad

[mepersoner]

I'm talking 1 v 1. Wolves have never been team duelers because it's difficult to balance resists/damage reduction/damage/life etc. on a wolf for a team duel.

Wolves need very specific gear from duel to duel, and when you compromise slightly one way or the other way in a team duel it screws them up pretty bad.

[2JZ-GTTE]

I'd have to agree with mep on this one. Even in CH with my fury/rabies I have serious trouble in team duels, but when I go one on one I actually have a chance. Now only if I had some switch gear for different duels.

I used to love team duels, but now that I can only afford my fury/rabies one on one is very intriguing(sp?).

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Hmmm, I would say my rabies/fury does ok in teams. He does a pretty good job of killing the one nasty caster (then getting *****).

Garbad

[2JZ-GTTE]

Then maybe its because I suck in teams? :( It's just a little too hectic for me. I'm sure you remember the 3v2 when I was using my fury/rabies(ThePhatBunny in honor of Proudfoot since he got the character started). I just get torn apart in teams. Maybe I need more practice.