Need help with C/C IAS breakpoint

[buster]

I’m planning out my first Assassin build and have learned a lot from reading the info on this forum. I’ll be playing PvM and will likely concentrate on the following skills:

20 BoI
20 PS
20 DT
15-20 TS
plus all the pre-reqs and 1 point wonders

The one skill that I’m not sure about is BoS. I want to make sure that I hit the fastest breakpoint, but from reading the IAS posts and tables I still can’t figure out what level I need to achieve that. I’ll be using a C/C setup with:

Bartuc’s (shaeled)
Jade Talon

I’ll have no other IAS from gear other than the 20% from the shael. Can anyone either tell me or point me to the correct formula to figure out what level BoS I need to attain to reach the fastest attack speed?

[ilkori]

Try Fuzzbox's IAS tables:
http://www.diabloii.net/characters/assassin/ias.shtml

For your build, I would consider dropping your 15-20 TS and putting them into something else.

[buster]

OK, I think I’ve finally got the max fpa figured out.

With a C/C Bartuc’s (shaeled) and a Jade Talon the EIAS required to hit the max fpa’s are:

Elemental charge-up 64 EIAS for 10 fpa (level 19 BoS required)
Animal charge-up 89 EIAS for 7 fpa (no problem)
Dragon Tail finisher 63 EIAS for 7 fpa (I’m only at 49, so I’ll have to settle for 8 fpa)

Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

[buster]

For your build, I would consider dropping your 15-20 TS and putting them into something else.
I figured TS would be a good charge up skill (either by itself or with BoI) to deal huge amounts of physical and fire damage (DTail finisher) while the monsters were frozen from the initial BoI attack. Where do you think the skill points would be better spent? Here’s how I had planned out my skill point distribution:

MA skills: (with +14 from equip & charms)
20 (34) BoI
20 (34) PS
20 (34) DTail
15 (29) TS
1 (15) all others

Shadow: (with +12 from equip & charms)
7 (19) BoS (to hit 10 fpa for BoI charge-up)
1 (13) all others

Traps: (with +9 from equip)
1 (10) BF
1 (10) 3 BF pre-reqs

[brianc84]

With the Tucs as the primary and inventory left you'd need to add:

54 EIAS (level 23 BoS) for 10 frame elemental
33 EIAS (level 4 BoS) for 7 frame animal
66 EIAS (impossible to attain with just BoS) for 7 frame Dragon Tail


With the Tucs as the primary and inventory right you'd need to add:
34 EIAS (level 4 BoS) for 10 frame elemental
13 EIAS (level 1 BoS) for 7 frame animal
46 EIAS (level 11 BoS) for 7 frame dragon tail

[ilkori]

I take back that comment! I thought you were referring to Dragon Talon when you listed your initial build. TS and DTalon don't work well together, but TS works great with DTail. It's rather unfortunate that Blizz decided to name those two skills like that.

[buster]

With the Tucs as the primary and inventory left you'd need to add:

54 EIAS (level 23 BoS) for 10 frame elemental
33 EIAS (level 4 BoS) for 7 frame animal
66 EIAS (impossible to attain with just BoS) for 7 frame Dragon Tail


With the Tucs as the primary and inventory right you'd need to add:
34 EIAS (level 4 BoS) for 10 frame elemental
13 EIAS (level 1 BoS) for 7 frame animal
46 EIAS (level 11 BoS) for 7 frame dragon tail
Wow, equiping it right makes that much difference! That's great now I'll have enough skill points to put 20 in TS and still hit all the max IAS breakpoints. :clap:

Just out of curiousity, what formulas did you use to get those numbers? Are your calculations based on having the Bartuc's shaeled?

[-Ferro-]

EIAS=(120*IAS)/(120+IAS) + SKILL IAS - WSM

EIAS=Efective IAS
IAS=Increased Atack Speed from gear, modifiers on weapon speed (shael rune, jewels, quickness mod, etc...)
SKILL IAS=IAS from BoS, Fana, etc..(there are more?)
WSM=Weapon Speed Modifier, usually known in all other forums as weapon BASE SPEED (why are you so speciall here in assa forum changing names? ;) )

As you can see, ias from skills and base weapon speed add straight to the desired effective ias, on the other hand, ias from gear and the like has dimissing returns.

In your case, Bartuc has WSM of -30, you have 20 ias from shael and wanna figure what BoS level you need to hit at last breakpoint using Tucs as primary claw with DT (63 EIAS last break). So (with DT, the WSM working is only from the primary claw, with other attacks you have to average WSM from both claws....ask jrichard):

63=(120*20/120+20) + BoS -(-30)
63=17 + BoS +30 (decimalls are dropped)
BoS=63-30-17= 16 ias from BoS, you got it with just one point using bartucs.

Give thanks to jrichard for the formula. I suggest you reading the kicking basis speed thread at the sticky by himself, many interesting issues inside, including wich attacks you have to consider averaging the WSM of both claws and more....

[brianc84]

(with DT, the WSM working is only from the primary claw)

No, you still have to average them (...ask jrichard). Also, you're forgetting the attack rate penalty of 40 with Dragon Tail. So it becomes:

63 = 120*20/(120+20) -(-20) + BoS - 40
63 = 17 + 20 + BoS - 40
66 = BoS

[Jayaz_Forteck]

Just to jump in here, if I have an unsocketed bartuc as my main claw (-30 wsm), and I wan't a 7-frame initial dragon talon kick, the table says I need 46% ias with level zero bos. Is this correct? A 7-frame initial will give me a 3 frame followup right?

[brianc84]

Just to jump in here, if I have an unsocketed bartuc as my main claw (-30 wsm), and I wan't a 7-frame initial dragon talon kick, the table says I need 46% ias with level zero bos. Is this correct?
It's correct if it's the only claw you have equipped. If you have another claw equipped, it may not necessarily be.


A 7-frame initial will give me a 3 frame followup right?
Yep.

[Jayaz_Forteck]

What if my second claw is jade talon (-10 wsm)?

[-Ferro-]

Didnt jrichards say Dtalon has no penalty?
Are the ias table correct? I read somewhere it could be wrong...

Ok it seems I havent understood pretty much the ias issue, add me to the group of confused people (Grrrrr.....wth im gonna do with my kicker...saving skillspoint till someone clear it up for me?)

Tell me plz:

[ilkori]

DTalon has no penalty, but the IAS tables are wrong. The reason they are wrong is in the tables they mention a 7/2/2/2 kick which is apparently not possible (I'd like to do some testing on this also... just need to get my gear set up in SP). The numbers for the 7 frame initial are correct, and they garauntee a 3 frame follow up (as others mentioned here and elsewhere).

[buster]

With the Tucs as the primary and inventory left you'd need to add:

54 EIAS (level 23 BoS) for 10 frame elemental
33 EIAS (level 4 BoS) for 7 frame animal
66 EIAS (impossible to attain with just BoS) for 7 frame Dragon Tail


With the Tucs as the primary and inventory right you'd need to add:
34 EIAS (level 4 BoS) for 10 frame elemental
13 EIAS (level 1 BoS) for 7 frame animal
46 EIAS (level 11 BoS) for 7 frame dragon tail
I still can’t get my numbers to match yours. Could someone look over my assumptions and calculations and see where I’m off?

Setup:
C/C Bartuc’s left / Jade Talon right
IAS = 20% shael in Bartuc’s

Assumptions:
WSM = -20 (average of -30 Bartuc’s and -10 Jade Talon)
Skill Penalties: Elemental charge up = 25, DTail = 40
EIAS needed to hit last breakpoints (according to Weapon Speed Calc at dii.net (http://stats.diabloii.net/calcs/wspeed.shtml)):
Elemental = 64 EIAS to hit 10 fpa
Animal = 75 EIAS to 7 fpa
DTail = 63 EIAS to hit 7 fpa
Formula: BoS = EIAS – ((120*IAS)/(120-IAS)) + WSM + Penalty

Calculations:
Elemental:
BoS = 64 - ((120*20)/(120+20)) + (-20) + 25
BoS = 64 – 17 – 20 + 25
BoS = 52 (level 19)

Animal:
BoS = 75 – 17 – 20 + 0
BoS = 38 (level 6)

TDail:
BoS = 63 – 17 -20 +40
BoS = 66 (not possible)

How does the formula change when equipping the faster claw (Bartuc’s) on the right hand?

[brianc84]

Well the diabloii.net weapon speed calculator doesn't give correct results.

10 frame elemental, 72 EIAS, -30 penalty
7 frame animal, 70 EIAS


How does the formula change when equipping the faster claw (Bartuc’s) on the right hand?

Substitute WSM for (InventoryLeftWSM + InventoryRightWSM)/2 + InventoryRightWSM - InventoryLeftWSM

And this is only if the Bartucs is the active weapon.