How does it feel to know that sorcs are not the best casters of 1.10? [Archive]

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Jacknife

23-06-2004, 07:53

It really defies most intuition that the best caster (i.e. the spellcaster who can do ****loads of damage against any monster) is the paladin, not the sorc. Who would have thought that a build based on a bug would become the most powerful spellcaster of all time in 1.10? I didn't, and it sure surprised me when I began this patch. Anyone else care to share?

Amsoly

23-06-2004, 08:57

Clarify as to what bug about blessed hammer that you refer to, I didn't know it was bugged...

Edit:
Reading the post below, I don't believe its bugged, I think the word he was trying to use was overpowered. It has high damage but it also has disadvantages.

Zarhrezz

23-06-2004, 09:04

How is Blessed Hammer bugged?

And as for being the best caster, I disagree. Hammers are a pain to aim and simply don't work in some areas. Sorcs have the benefit of having a selection of spells available to be able to deal with any situation. Also BH range is limited, most sorc spells are not.

The only thing that makes Hammerdins so popular is the rune duping on the realms which gave everyone and their dog an Enigma armor. Only due to that are Hammerdins competitive Meph/Baal runners. In single player, sorc is still the best runner for the average player...only a select few have access to Enigma and can use Hammerdin or Fishymancer for runs.

Frowny

23-06-2004, 09:39

melianor

23-06-2004, 09:43

I think Bonemancers probably take the cake for being the best casters.
Tons of unresistable dmg + no range limits like the pally + good defensive skills + Marrowalk bug + Enigma = no more sorc dominance

I definitly think the Enigma insanity and possibly the Marrowalk bug needs to end, but thats what CH is for!

Yes but that upperhand is only achived through items. The Sorc needs no Enigma or Marrowwalk to be effective... I would not name a class best caster that is suddenly lost when stripped of Enigma..... :lol:
That goes for both Necromancers and Paladins.
What was the purpose of posting this in the Sorceress forum anyway?
People usually posting here are fond Sorceress players who feel she is the still about the best caster class you can get. Alot of Versatile builds that can take care of any situations. Tons of damage aswell, etc. etc.

Da1nONLY

23-06-2004, 10:46

sorcs i think remain the best because of all the synergies and don't forget the items arent that hard to get :lol:

Lira Lindriel

23-06-2004, 11:23

Well, right now I've got to admit my hammerdin is my most powerful char in 1.10 - and I have seven sorc-Mats so far...

There is only one monster that is truly immune against his hammers and that's the wailing beasts in the Kurast-temples.
And the only area where aiming is a serious pain is the Maggot Lair. And you can just get through this with Charge or even normal attack. While I had Enigma, it's not necessary for the overpoweredness of the hammerdin.

I like my Chargedboltress a lot - and she deals even more dam than my pally. The unfortunate thing is she's a whole lot more fragile. :/ And there's always some small thing I'd do differently now with each sorc that I've Matted in 1.10 so far. So the hammerdin is my best char right now. Hmph!
But I hope to remedy this with my next two sorcs. ;) One will be melee (very item-dependent unfortunately), the other will be an FO-FB-sorc (with some met thrown in) who should be able to do fine with mf-gear.

Ash Housewares

23-06-2004, 12:53

he was referring to hammerdins being built on a bug in that concentrate granted it's ed bonus to hammers in classic because it was bugged and bliz caught on and made it a 'feature' allowing conc to grant 50% strength to hammers, didn't anybody play classic? or non-sorcs?

Soepgroente

23-06-2004, 14:17

You don't need to be the best to have fun. Besides, how do you define "best"? A good sorceress can do anything lots quicker than a hammerdin, they need to wait and wait before their hammers have finally made circles etc. while a sorc can just blast a few fire balls and everything falls. Then orb kills hella fast too. I bet with the right equipment a sorc could outdo hammerdins, though not in players8 mode.

MSA.

23-06-2004, 14:27

Who cares if they are super overpowered, they are no challenge to play at all... how could this be fun? I'm currently going to be working on a ranger pally and a throwing barb, these kind of things are fun to build, even though they won't be the most powerful characters, who cares...

I still love my meteorb sorc =]

Da1nONLY

23-06-2004, 14:36

i played all kinds of chars but i find my fire sorc to be the most fun to use...i plan on making a chargedboltress :thumbsup:

Cironir

23-06-2004, 14:38

Flamebait, but I'll bite anyway. :)

If by "best" you mean "having a spell that does the most unresisted damage", then perhaps a paladin is "better" than a sorceress. But is it fun, is there much strategy involved? Once you've learned how to use BH, it's just rinse and repeat, even though the same can be said about most spells or skills, but personally, I find hammers even more mind-numbing.

While someone with the typical b.net mindset ("if a character can't solo-8 easily, the build sucks") may find the relative ease appealing, I certainly don't, since it's just not really challenging (there's a reason I play HC on the realms). In fact, I like that sorceresses now require a bit more thought and aren't the powergamers' first choice anymore. That's refreshing, because I never did like playing mainstream characters.

In short, I don't have issues with playing a "weaker" character, though I still consider sorceresses to be quite strong. If nothing else, they are versatile.

Stiertje

23-06-2004, 15:51

melianor

23-06-2004, 15:57

skygoneblue

23-06-2004, 16:47

Heck, if we're talking about a lot of unresistable damage, let's talk about Berkerer Barbarians. Over 10k magic damage with one little swing - much more effective than a stupid spiraling hammer! :lol:

ioupain

23-06-2004, 18:49

theres also the question about whether the player has any skill or not. having all the best items doesnt instantly make you a good player, in fact it may make you worse off as you sometimes dont require any skill or tactics.

Tanatus

23-06-2004, 18:56

Casting items change game a lot
Look if you think hammerdin powerfull think about zealots with 50K+ deffence and 35K+ AR ... after defiance aura on Exile shield and Deamon Limb lvl 23 enchant click-cast. Think about Beast or Zeal based enchanters sorcs .... Think about WWsins... Also think about weapons that cast on attack/strinking like Stromlash (static lvl 10 and cast very often) or same Exile with life tap cast (allow you leach life from undead)...
Every class now have own perks that did not worked in 1.09 ... which is good D2 got more diversity in gameplay.
Look in 1.09 burizones/ith hydra zones were everywhere .... in 1.10 they gone
I wont argue that hammerdin nowday probably best well rounded caster who can kill MUCH faster then ANY sorc can even dream about. Well builded hammerdin deliver 2.5-2.8 hammers every second with damage 10-15k per hammer. More over - those hammers cannt be blocked or resisted, they have built-in ITD and pierce target ability (in other word each hammer can hit as many target as will be stay on it way). No sorc can in 8 players game kill Lester and Ko within 6 second solo - hammerdin can
I want also dissolve illusion that sorc not items depends - yes they are - you need at very least +8-9 skills to be efficient in hell with what ever built you choose (for lighting based I'd say you need at least +15-17 skills)

hemp[1

23-06-2004, 21:11

totally off topic, but what is the marrowalk bug... just got back into 1.10, i heard something about lvl 32 bonewall or something like that

skygoneblue

23-06-2004, 21:24

The skills that Marrowalks give makes the Necromancers skills synergize with those on the boots. I don't know the exact skill, numbers, etc, but it makes them overpowered as hell.

Tanatus

24-06-2004, 02:18

mathil

24-06-2004, 03:09

It's strange how everything suddenly is a bug. True, some things in the game weren't supposed to be, but most things are just the way it was meant to be. I know some spells or skills are overpowered, but that is a balance question, not a bug.
i don't know if this was about hammerdins or not, but at one point, hammerdins WERE bugged to work. in early version of d2 classic (i don't know which) concentration had the full effect on hammers. you think hammerdins are powerful now? imagine when it was bugged. blizzard ended that and then brought it back again; this time as a feature.

in the down time for hammerdins i remember someone had a sig or something that said "you think no one cares about hammerdins? give me a keg and i'll be hammerdin 10 minutes."

i had a hammerdin that only made it lvl 25 or so back in the day. that was awesome. then the patch came and he couldn't hurt a zombie if it was already dead.

Stiertje

24-06-2004, 04:23

Normally charge on items cannt counts toward ... except morrowwalk
Morrowwalk have lvl 33 bone prison charges on it ... and those charges if necro dont have any points in bone prison will counts as sinergy and as such they give very strong power boost to bone spears and bone spirits

First of all, it's Marrowwalk, not Morrowwalk (marrow as in bonemarrow) ;)

And second, ALL charged items CAN have their charges count as a synergy, provided it is a synergy skill for that type of character. Even an amulet with Telekinesis charges can have the charges count as a synergy for Energy Shield. The only requirement for this "feature" is not having hard skillpoints in that particular skill.

The popularity of the Marrowwalk "bug" lies in the fact that they are already decent boots AND that the charges of Bone Prison are of slvl 32. This means a necromancer can have a slvl 32 synergy bonus to certain skills with no skillpoints invested, where normally an slvl 20 synergy bonus is the maximum. This has a 1k damage difference in the synergized skills like Bone Spear and Bone Spirit.

So, as a sum-up, Marrowwalks are already decent boots providing a larger then maximum synergy bonus, whereas all the other charged items are actually quite crappy for the character that would benefit from the synergy bonus. It's all about usefullness, and Marrows are actually usefull, and most other charged items are not.

Jacknife

25-06-2004, 09:05

Yeah, just to let people know, I was talking about classic d2 when referring to the hammerdin being a build based on a bug. I didn't really remember them as being all that powerful back then though, at least compared to now.

prion

26-06-2004, 06:06

I've made three hammerdins in two different patches and I don't like the playstyle.

dassaur

28-07-2004, 15:43

[QUOTE=Stiertje
So, as a sum-up, Marrowwalks are already decent boots providing a larger then maximum synergy bonus, whereas all the other charged items are actually quite crappy for the character that would benefit from the synergy bonus. It's all about usefullness, and Marrows are actually usefull, and most other charged items are not.[/QUOTE]

That is not true

Carrion Wind the unique ring synergises with a lvl 21 poison creeper, and with +10 skills rabies is about about 20k dammage with more + skills it is about 30k. i currently have one that does 35k

Jek

28-07-2004, 16:37

Bleh at hammerdins, my Cold/Fire sorc is mucho faster at Baal runs and my Nova/ES/TS/FW sorc is faster for general game-play. And oh wait, they're much cheaper (no enigma).

Tanatus

28-07-2004, 19:24

Bleh at hammerdins, my Cold/Fire sorc is mucho faster at Baal runs and my Nova/ES/TS/FW sorc is faster for general game-play. And oh wait, they're much cheaper (no enigma).
Want to do run on bet and see who can kill Baal + minions solo faster .... in 8 players game?
For my hammerdin take less then 8 second to kill diablo and about 120 second to clean entier CS
My MF hammerdin need 3-3.5 min to get to baal kill all minions and kill Baal
Killing Mephisto himeself take about 6-7second in MF gear
Lightining sorc extremely expensive to built - you need at very least have +15 to lighting skill to do any visible damage in hell. Frankly I'd say well builded hammerdin will cost you slightly more then well builded sorc but! moderately geared hammerdin is much cheaper then moderately geared sorc

no2fakeshakes

28-07-2004, 21:44

Want to do run on bet and see who can kill Baal + minions solo faster .... in 8 players game?
For my hammerdin take less then 8 second to kill diablo and about 120 second to clean entier CS
My MF hammerdin need 3-3.5 min to get to baal kill all minions and kill Baal
Killing Mephisto himeself take about 6-7second in MF gear
Lightining sorc extremely expensive to built - you need at very least have +15 to lighting skill to do any visible damage in hell. Frankly I'd say well builded hammerdin will cost you slightly more then well builded sorc but! moderately geared hammerdin is much cheaper then moderately geared sorc

but a moderately geared hammerdin would require enigma, which a sorc does not, and enigmas costs more than a few lightning gcs

Tanatus

29-07-2004, 00:10

but a moderately geared hammerdin would require enigma, which a sorc does not, and enigmas costs more than a few lightning gcs
not really moderate builded hammerdin dont use enigma - its a belong top-end gear.
An example of moderate type hammerdin
Peasant crown
Vipermagi
HOZ (the ONLY expensive part that cannt be bought for pgems)
T-gods/upped nightsmoke
suicide branch
magefirsts/frostburns
rare 10fcr rings with either mana/life or multiple resistance or/and ravenfrost/dwarf star
natalya soul/aldurs/infernostride/waterwalk ect boots
Any +1 or +2 skills ammulet
some resistance and life charms in invetory
Such kind of hammerin have maxed resistance in hell ~7k hammer at 125FCR capable of soloing in 8 player games and capable of MFing in CS/Shrenk/Eldrich/Pit/Travis in relatively fast pace via vigor-charge transportation

iguelmay

29-07-2004, 01:04

i don't know if this was about hammerdins or not, but at one point, hammerdins WERE bugged to work. in early version of d2 classic (i don't know which) concentration had the full effect on hammers. you think hammerdins are powerful now? imagine when it was bugged. blizzard ended that and then brought it back again; this time as a feature.

in the down time for hammerdins i remember someone had a sig or something that said "you think no one cares about hammerdins? give me a keg and i'll be hammerdin 10 minutes."

i had a hammerdin that only made it lvl 25 or so back in the day. that was awesome. then the patch came and he couldn't hurt a zombie if it was already dead.

i think that was aroudn version 1.04 when i used to play a lot. I dont recal hammerdins being as strong as they are now. The equipment just wasn't around. in classic if you had 5 or 6 +skills that was quite a bit already. If i remember correctly, Barbs were dominant in 1.04. There was originally a bug where lances would not drop. But when it was fixed, regular lances would trade straight up for 1 soj. I think barbs were so powerful because WW didnt adjust to weapon attack speed.

in 1.04 sorcs had to be really rich because you needed lots of +skills AND lots of fast cast AND lots of +mana to maintain fast cast. If you were an orb sorc, you needed max static, and enough fast cast to spam a ****load of orbs to kill things.

mathil

29-07-2004, 02:56

that info is a bit off. barbarians were powerful because WW and a lance was just abusive. WW has been nerfed 5-7 times by now. adding the weapon speed is new to xpac (and it doesn't apply in classic now). i have an "official strategy guide" of diablo 2 from 2000 that lists WW's dmg bonus as 235% at lvl 20 (for reference its now down to about 100%).

i played classic until 09 (haven't played too much 1.10 overall, just 4 chars in ladder season 1) and i can say for certain that sorcs never needed a lot of +skills. my 09 nova/orb sorc had 2 plus to skills. its not that the game was harder to play back then. when blizzard made the new patches and the expansion they improved both the monsters and the equipment (seemingly equally).

tanatus: what you listed as moderate gear for a hammerdin i consider good gear for a sorc. and is better than any character i have made (classic chars aside). i made both a hammerdin and 2 sorcs in ladder season 1. all completely untwinked and without trading (more out of stubborness than anything else). they are all around lvl 80 and use comparable gear. the sorcs are A LOT better than the pally.

awjl

29-07-2004, 06:11

Let's hope one of the new lad runewords has +lvl 30 conviction [Sorceress Only].

:)

Jek

29-07-2004, 18:01

Want to do run on bet and see who can kill Baal + minions solo faster .... in 8 players game?

I play P1 and on SP now (sick of the average player on b.net), I don't want my drops to be taken by pickit users. But maybe a race to level 95, solo-play, untwinked (ladder)? I play my sorc, you'll go with a paladin?

For my hammerdin take less then 8 second to kill diablo and about 120 second to clean entier CS

My zon kills diablo in about 2 seconds, who cares about CS, it's lousy exp at a high level. :P

Lightining sorc extremely expensive to built - you need at very least have +15 to lighting skill to do any visible damage in hell.

I kill very, very, fast in hell with a "weak" nova sorc with just +10. :)

Frankly I'd say well builded hammerdin will cost you slightly more then well builded sorc but! moderately geared hammerdin is much cheaper then moderately geared sorc

A paladin requires Enigma to even match a sorc. And I doubt ALL of my equipment is even worth an Enigma. But each to his own, I like sorcs and you like paladins. :)
------

It's not to say Hammerdins are weak, they're not. But a wellplayed sorc can easily be on pair with an Enigma-powered hammerdin.

PS: I'm semi-intoxicated so please ignore misspelling and such. :)

Tanatus

29-07-2004, 19:20

I have mostly sorcs in all patches pretty much my primary built before 1.10 was always SF/Orb/Ts. In 1.10 I played till the 90s all classes but necro (I simply cannt stand slow killing pace and all that time that take building and rebuilding minions army). By far margine most powerfull and easy to play at any lvl and any gear is hammerdin. For playing hammerdin you have just 1 bottleneck - you need have HOZ or at very least rare/magic paladin shield with imporved block (deflection) and massive resistance (40+ at very least).
What is main advantage of hammerdin over all classes in game but bonner-necro? Answer is fairly simple ... Hammers posses few interesting things. First and foremost - hammers cannt be resisted its magic damage. Because hammer is blessed its ignore resistance/immunity of deamons and undead (which is like 95% population of all monsters) and so to speak only 1 type of monsters is immune to hammers - namely gaint apes in the Kurast temple area's. Second thing that make hammers extremely power (overpowered if you will) ITD, ignore block and! on top of it Pierce Target. Only bone spears of necros have same (that's why claw vipers pose so much treat for anyone). In a simple words single hammer (given enouth damage) can kill halth screen of monsters. Toss on top of it that hammer is spawnable spell with area effect (125FCR=2.8 hammer per second 75FCR=2.5hammer per second). Javazones would be fastest killers in game if not 1thing - LI/LR monsters that greatly reduce effectiveness javazones in hell toss here fact that for some reason LI often comes in conjuction Poison Immune...
Now lets look on duralubility. Due to class specific items (sheilds and HOZ in particular) paladins never have slightest problem with resistance; due to Holy Shield and massive + combat skills deffense even for paladin-casters clocking around 15K (which is already enouth to ingnore most melee/ranged attack from monsters) block always maxed not only this with HS up paladin have 2frame per block. Caster paladin generally need ~89 str (to be able equip HOZ in 1 click) and ~120 dextr (after items) in order to have maximum block with HOZ under HS - rest stats goes into vita (w/o any special gear its easy to have 1200+hp at lvl 80+)
Probably I need add 1 more crucial advantage of hammerdin over all sorcs - offensive part of hammerin is finished by lvl 78 past this lvl damage of hammer depend only on gear and all you do past lvl 78 is building up duralubility via HS (each point add+15% deffense and +1% to chance to block) - which is doubling deffense every 6 lvls
...This class would be godly if not 1 thing ... Mobility untill time you get enigma you are one slow crawling heavy tank (not as slow as necro thou)
Dont get me wrong thou - I like play sorc I usually have several version of em (Fireballorb and FO/CL favorite one thou) but.... Sorcs unfortunally requied a lot more gear to get to "enjoable" lvl in hell. What mean enjoable?
Sorc (MetOrb) with at least 75 resist lighting 50 resist cold/fire and positive poison resist ~400 damage per shard for FO and ~2.5K fireball at 63FCR ~400-600 lifde and at very least 500 mana .... its requied at very least +5-6 skills and lvl 80+
Hammerdin requied same resistance as sorc and ~5K hammer with 75FCR - which is requied ~3-4 skiller and ~lvl 70 so feel the difference
Lastly about FO/CL built - I have it and from personal expirience CL dont have any killing power in hell untill time you brake mark 5-6K damage per arch (~+11 skillers with maxed CL/Lit mastery/Lighting)
To summorize things why hammerdin prefereble as a caster
No resistance check, much much higher duralubility, less skills to achieve maximum damage output on offense

Jek

29-07-2004, 20:29

Hammerdin requied same resistance as sorc and ~5K hammer with 75FCR - which is requied ~3-4 skiller and ~lvl 70 so feel the difference

Sorcs doesn't really need max resists, as you can easily use teleport defensive and not be hit. Plus Energy Shield also makes your resists less important. ;)

In my opinion the only slight advantage of the hammerdin is they only need on skill to kill monsters, Blessed Hammer and therefor much easier to play. My nova sorc kills as fast, if not faster than my enigma-hammerdin in P1. Yes, she needs her merc to do so, but eh, why not take advantage of him? :)

Tanatus

30-07-2004, 00:21

Duralubility sorc and paladin simply uncomparable. If any mana burn monsters is almost certain death for sorc for hammerdin its just little annoiance. While I can go afk for a several min in middle of Lester and Ko during 8players Hell Baal runs - any sorc would be dead in question of second in same situation

Jek

30-07-2004, 01:14

Duralubility sorc and paladin simply uncomparable.

A well equiped ES sorc is pretty much unkillable except by a manaburn bosspack.

If any mana burn monsters is almost certain death for sorc for hammerdin its just little annoiance. While I can go afk for a several min in middle of Lester and Ko during 8players Hell Baal runs - any sorc would be dead in question of second in same situation

I didn't meant that the sorc is as durable a tank as a paladin, or barb for that matter. Just meant they're not that fragile. :)

Tanatus

30-07-2004, 02:35

I have on none ladder (nowdays :() lvl 87 Meteororb with ES clone - she is ok but nowhere near my hammerdin in all aspects
Ok mean pretty much cookie-cuter gear
Shako-Viper-Arachnid-Lidless-Magefist-Mara-various absorb rins (wisp/raven/dwarf)-occy couple skillers couple shimmering gc ect
Meteor damage ~12k fireball damage ~5k damage per shard ~430 lvl 19 (after skillers) CM ~1500 mana ~600 life maxed resistances

Arafax

30-07-2004, 02:37

Sooo, Jek...What's this about you posting a Nova/ES/TS/FW Sorc guide next week? :innocent:

supomglol

30-07-2004, 04:00

Mobility (teleport) + Power (Awesome attacks) +Agiltiy (varriety in attacks) +defience (frozen armors) = the ultimate char (sorc)

What more can be said.

mathil

30-07-2004, 06:39

Omikron8

30-07-2004, 06:50

It's strange how everything suddenly is a bug. True, some things in the game weren't supposed to be, but most things are just the way it was meant to be. I know some spells or skills are overpowered, but that is a balance question, not a bug.

Last night i even got insulted for being a cheater because I used a bugged Tal's Armour. He said he knew it was bugged because he couldn't see it on my char (did have set glow but no armour shown). Some of you know that this happens every time with an armour when you need charms and items to fullfill the strength requirement (called the "strength bug") Now this truly is a bug, but most people don't even understand what the bug really is.

Read Ash's post above. In early classic d2 (pre xpac) blessed hammer worked with concentration and this was admitted by blizzard to be a bug. Blizzard then "fixed" concentration and prevented it from working with blessed hammer but all the b.net kiddies cried out that their "press one button everything dies" build was nerfed. Blizzard sooned changed it back and it has worked that way since.

Jek

30-07-2004, 14:18

Sooo, Jek...What's this about you posting a Nova/ES/TS/FW Sorc guide next week? :innocent:

Need to update my Lightningzon miniguide first. :evil:

Megaman123

30-07-2004, 17:27

FYI In classic D2 hammers worked with fanta, conc, and might. Even with the best gear you could only get upto 1.3k hammers in 1.09 classic. Of course if you had a stacker (a pally that rotates fanta, conc, and might and use a script to follow you around), you could get 2.5k hammers.

Best chars of 1.09 in classic were a multi-shot amazon (with a stacker she was just sick), FO sorc since static had no limits, and a lance barb since ww was faster.

Tanatus

30-07-2004, 20:10

well tanatus, i see you have abandoned the arguement that paladins are cheaper. now you are saying paladins are more powerful...with cheaper gear. well...duh. if i wanted to hear ******** i would watch the democratic national convention.

yes. blizzard did poorly implement hammerdins by having a powerful attack fall into a category of dmg that had previously been severely underpowered and therefore resisted by monsters minimally.

your point about less skill points to achieve max dmg is a mute point. you are comparing one build (hammerdins) to a class (sorceresses). to compare skill points, pick one sorc build. lets keep things cookie cutter: the orb only sorc. finished by lvl 64. ES is a bonus... if you want it. i never use it. i use teleport and don't get hit.

and your "duralubility" thing... lets talk about equal gear first.
Ok lets talk about equal gear ....
I'll take 3 instances
a) low quality gear
b) moderate quality of gear
c) top-end gear
Pricing for low-mid quality gear for paladin is cheaper/equal then for sorc more over "casting" paladins using pretty much same gear like sorcs. My entie point is that paladin need less +skillers in order achieve ability solo hell from act 1 to act 5 w/o any hassle. Your orb sorc wont be able deal with CI monsters at all and CI are about 25% population of all monsters. I agree on 1 thing - every patch create 1 class that overpowered (1.10 created 2 classes of such kind boners for PvP and hammerdins for PvM)
First it were CE necros , then WW barbs, then Nova-Orb sorcs, then multishot burizons/ith hydrazone nowdays its hammerdins/bonners. We never know what would be next lol it could be summoning druid or MA assasins

kanga_jay

30-07-2004, 20:15

Want to do run on bet and see who can kill Baal + minions solo faster .... in 8 players game?
For my hammerdin take less then 8 second to kill diablo and about 120 second to clean entier CS
My MF hammerdin need 3-3.5 min to get to baal kill all minions and kill Baal
Killing Mephisto himeself take about 6-7second in MF gear
Lightining sorc extremely expensive to built - you need at very least have +15 to lighting skill to do any visible damage in hell. Frankly I'd say well builded hammerdin will cost you slightly more then well builded sorc but! moderately geared hammerdin is much cheaper then moderately geared sorc

Yes, all fine and dandy.. but who has the bigger penis?!!

HipHop Automust

30-07-2004, 20:43

You know Hammerdins have an ungodly potential of 14+k Magical DMG, but I wouldn't say they are the best caster in an overall perspective. Throw then in the Maggot Lair with no Enigma or Tele Charges and they become ineffective. Sure you can charge your way through things but that isn't a caster-based ability. I do say that for versatility, Hammerdins may take the cake - being able to deal insane amounts of magical damage and extremely decent amount of physical damage (my Hammerdin had around an 8k charge on switch). But in essence of a pure caster, Sorcs still take the cake.

In another perspective I still feel a caster-based Necro is the most fun IMO. Sure +skills are rather a must for them to deal a great deal of damage, but no one doubts that a lvl 30+ Teeth is more versatile, more damaging (in terms of ranged/speed/spam-ability), and just plain cool looking than any other lvl 1 spell - It's great spamming my necro's lvl 36 Teeth at just a 110ish FCR in PvM and PvP.

mathil

31-07-2004, 01:38

"well played clerks."

but first a more pressing issue: megaman123: yes. hammerdins of old (and of classic now) may only do 1.3k dmg. but you haven't considered the other factors. namely: the monsters you fight are weaker. i don't have any statistics to prove it, but i have a feeling the hammerdins of old were more powerful relative to the monsters they fought than the hammerdins of new. and i base it off of one simple fact. it wasn't suppose to work then. blizzard had to go in and make it so it didn't work. call it a hunch, but if its has to be fixed, its probably more powerful than a feature.

back to the arguement:
i disagree with your understood examples of low and mid lvl gear. high end gear is more expensive for the pally - no doubt. but you are the setting the other gear way too low for a pally. it seems to me like you are skipping a number of items/price ranges that just shouldn't be skipped. and argueing the item ranges iether way won't convince anyone of anything. but i will say this again: in ladder season 1 i had a hammerdin and 2 sorcs (pure light and fb/orb). all were untwinked and didn't trade and ended up with equivelent gear. we'll call this gear low end (trust me on this). the sorcs were SO much easier than the pally.

mainly because the paladin needed to be close to do dmg and without "moderate" gear, he's just a frail caster. i can handle being as frail as a dried leaf with a sorc because they can attack from afar and have mobility, but the pally...sure he did more dmg, if he wasn't in stun animation or block animation or just plain being dead.

that said, i really do agree with you that hammerdins are better. lets not forget half of the combo is an aura so your whole party gets increased dmg. but for some reason, blizzard decided to bring back magical dmg: with a vengence. until now nothing in the game has ever dealt enough magical dmg for there to be any need for defense against it. i would not be suprised if we see magical resistence or at the least "magical dmg reduced by X%" spawn on more items. and heck, why not make all res do magical dmg too. give the monsters some magical res (and more immunes) and then hammerdins are equal.

i wouldn't be suprised if poison dmg was the next big thing. or zons that aren't archers or LFers. i want my fendazon to be decent :-(.