My beef with most guides.

[SenorCabby]

I hate to start with something that'll most likely get flamed, but I just feel like most guides are written by people that only vaguely know what they're talkin about.

If you're gonna give information (let alone tell people how to play) I just think you need to know if there's a better variation of the build that you're putting up here. Which I've found several times.

I dunno. just felt like throwin my card in the hat and saying that it's an annoyance to me personally. I built a character from the forums that sounded interesting, built it to a T, and it was AWFUL. Picked up the recommended items by trading a lot, logged a lotta time, and then deleted him about a week after he was finished.

Build was from this Necromancer forum btw.

/sigh.

[mr_mop]

As you are so critical, your guide is where exactly?

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

I hate to start with something that'll most likely get flamed, but I just feel like most guides are written by people that only vaguely know what they're talkin about.

If you're gonna give information (let alone tell people how to play) I just think you need to know if there's a better variation of the build that you're putting up here. Which I've found several times.

I dunno. just felt like throwin my card in the hat and saying that it's an annoyance to me personally. I built a character from the forums that sounded interesting, built it to a T, and it was AWFUL. Picked up the recommended items by trading a lot, logged a lotta time, and then deleted him about a week after he was finished.

Build was from this Necromancer forum btw.

/sigh.

You can always take the advice from others on battle net itself...which is usually: max Gumby, Iron Maiden, Revives, Amp and Dim Vision.

And then listen to them tell you that Skeletons suxxorz and the Revives are much better...among other things.

Was this guide one of the stickied ones ?(which usually means it to be among the better guides) or one of the one's where it seems like every new person feels the need to post one...and hopefully make a name for themselves ?.

Since this is the only Necro forum...I has to be from here. I would like to see this guide that you followed though.

HoS

[SenorCabby]

Was this guide one of the stickied ones ?(which usually means it to be among the better guides) or one of the one's where it seems like every new person feels the need to post one...and hopefully make a name for themselves ?.

HoS

It wasn't one of the stickied ones. I mean those people that you're talkin about. the ones that think they just absolutely have to make a guide for no reason really.

The guide I followed was from a few months ago (probally 5 or 6 honestly), I'm posting this ex post facto. I just checked in to see what the word was here, and saw a bunch of guides on the first page.

As to where's my guide... I'm not one of those people that thinks I've got a great guide and should share it with anybody lookin to make a good character. If you want me to take a stab and it and put up or shut up, I'm more than willing, but just becomming the people I'm posting about.

Note to newbs -- Follow the stickied guides at the top. the rest are often times just good for speculation.

[CEG]

You are annoyed at guides for not being thorough and written well enough. However we are talking about Diablo 2. To even need a guide in the first place doesn't say much for you in my opinion. It is a very simple game. The only things really useful are numbers and breakpoints. Guides for things like skellimancers and bonemancers, or kicking assassins all seem pretty self explanatory and simple to work out in no more than 10 mins. The only interesting guides are those that cover builds that arn't commonly seen or perhaps thought of as to weak to work.

[uncreativereally]

As you are so critical, your guide is where exactly?
I'm getting really tired of this type of attack. Using your logic only Nightfish, Angst, TheKbob, and soulesschild would be able to post on this forum. Your argument sounds childish because you don't stay on topic.

[Ash Housewares]

make a frenzy barb :thumbsup:

[Mad Mantis]

Build was from this Necromancer forum btw.

Do you recall the build?

[mr_mop]

Ah one of those guides and not a sticky. Well that is a different story. As HoS has said the stickies are the best ones to follow. I guess the random guides are from folks who play in a style they like personally. The stickies are more of a 'one size fits all' approach? The ones that are stickied are those that are successful for a lot of people. Those random ones don't suit everyone and dont get stickied.

just becomming the people I'm posting about
Yes you are right. To do that would make you one of those. I thought you were talking about the 'guides' not the random guides. Soz.

I'm getting really tired of this type of attack. Using your logic only Nightfish, Angst, TheKbob, and soulesschild would be able to post on this forum. Your argument sounds childish because you don't stay on topic.
You're right, it was harsh, misplaced and necessary. My bad. :bonk:

[TheKbob]

yeah I can post here and you guys cant!... wait that would get boring :(

Ah well, I let yah!

Mad will soon join the fabled lot of guide writers if can hurry his newbie butt up.

Sorry that you got bad info.

~Kbob

[Mad Mantis]

Mad will soon join the fabled lot of guide writers if can hurry his newbie butt up.

Expect a mail by the weekend.

[47thRonin]

About those non-stickied guides: I find that most of these kinds of guides are done on the spot with little preparation , and less than a month of working with the class they are making a guide for. However, this is speaking in general. I saw one such guide called a "Confusermancer" which got a ton of praise, and not by just n00bs like me. Vets like Kbob, MM, etc. all gave it kudos. Something along the lines of "This build epitomizes the meat & potatoes of what it means to be a necro".

.....Never saw it get stickied. :scratch:

-47thRonin

[gvandale]

also realize that guide writing is a process. i learned a lot before i wrote my first guide, and as i read the feedback, and put some of the feedback into my build, i realized there was more then what i initially had thought. so a revision was due.

also, a 'guide' is just that.

7 entries found for guide.
To select an entry, click on it.
guide[1,noun]guide[2,verb]field guideGirl Guideguide dogguide wordlight guide

Main Entry: 1guide
Pronunciation: 'gId
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Old Provençal guida, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English wItan to look after, witan to know -- more at WIT
1 a : one that leads or directs another's way b : a person who exhibits and explains points of interest c : something that provides a person with guiding information d : SIGNPOST 1 e : a person who directs another's conduct or course of life
2 a : a device for steadying or directing the motion of something b : a ring or loop for holding the line of a fishing rod in position c : a sheet or a card with projecting tab for labeling inserted in a card index to facilitate reference
3 : a member of a unit on whom the movements or alignments of a military command are regulated -- used especially in commands <guide right>


Now, lets look at the bold'd items.

Leading...Guiding...Directing...

It's like pointing in the right direction. Doesn't mean follow it word for word to the 'T'. I mean, play style will make a huge difference.

Oh well, g

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

When it comes to the random guides...there's been only 3 that I would try and 2 are by Patsy.

HoS

[Hadriel]

You are annoyed at guides for not being thorough and written well enough. However we are talking about Diablo 2. To even need a guide in the first place doesn't say much for you in my opinion. It is a very simple game. The only things really useful are numbers and breakpoints. Guides for things like skellimancers and bonemancers, or kicking assassins all seem pretty self explanatory and simple to work out in no more than 10 mins. The only interesting guides are those that cover builds that arn't commonly seen or perhaps thought of as to weak to work.

This is quite insulting to the person. I'm sure many people on here will confess to have used guides or at least refferred to guides in the construction of their characters. As far as computer games go, I wouldn't describe Diablo 2 as a "very simple game" in fact it is probably one of the most complex, flexible games there is, allowing for the use of countless different builds and strategies and replayability, which undoubtedly is what makes it so popular.

[gvandale]

so you think mine sucked.

wow...your harsh! where's my bramble!?

[Dark Knight]

It wasn't one of the stickied ones. I mean those people that you're talkin about. the ones that think they just absolutely have to make a guide for no reason really. If you make a build from a non-stickied guide it could have been "posted by anyone". If it fails; if its absolute rubbish, well... thats life.

All of the stuck guides are supposed to have a vague seal of approval both from myself and the forum veterans.. if you follow a stuck guide and it utterly sucks - then I want to hear about it via PM. :)

In this case - sorry theres nothing to be done. Just read feedback to these randomly posted guides carefully I guess.

[xeyloderixed]

i wholehearted agree with dark knight. this is a forum after all; take everything with a grain of salt. i assure you, most of the information here is either misleading or plain wrong. read what you can, and test them out yourself.

[CEG]

This is quite insulting to the person. I'm sure many people on here will confess to have used guides or at least refferred to guides in the construction of their characters. As far as computer games go, I wouldn't describe Diablo 2 as a "very simple game" in fact it is probably one of the most complex, flexible games there is, allowing for the use of countless different builds and strategies and replayability, which undoubtedly is what makes it so popular.

Yeah, I completely didn't phrase correctly what I as trying to say, and I was tired/annoyed when I posted so it didn't come out right. My point was that you don't ever really need a guide. It isn't usually hard to figure things out. But guides do provide convienence and useful things like the raw numbers and insights that the person may have overlooked. They also may present strategies and concepts that someone may not come across on there own. I'm still not sure if I phrased it right, but either way I didn't mean to be insult anyone who writes/reads guides. In fact I am still planning on writing a guide of my own.

[Hadriel]

Yeah, I completely didn't phrase correctly what I as trying to say, and I was tired/annoyed when I posted so it didn't come out right. My point was that you don't ever really need a guide. It isn't usually hard to figure things out. But guides do provide convienence and useful things like the raw numbers and insights that the person may have overlooked. They also may present strategies and concepts that someone may not come across on there own. I'm still not sure if I phrased it right, but either way I didn't mean to be insult anyone who writes/reads guides. In fact I am still planning on writing a guide of my own.

OK, no problem, just a misunderstanding.

[gvandale]

I'm getting really tired of this type of attack. Using your logic only Nightfish, Angst, TheKbob, and soulesschild would be able to post on this forum. Your argument sounds childish because you don't stay on topic.
sorry, have you not seen my 2? jesus! i quit the damn game and i'm forgotten!!??!

g

[TheKbob]

Vets like Kbob, MM, etc. all gave it kudos.

-47thRonin

:lol:

First time some one else called me a vet and really, MM has been here prob twice as long as I have. Oh the simple irony.

~Kbob

[uncreativereally]

sorry, have you not seen my 2? jesus! i quit the damn game and i'm forgotten!!??!

g
Yes, yes you are.

[gvandale]

dude,
that's reallyuncreative

HA HA I'M FUNNY!

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

so you think mine sucked.

wow...your harsh! where's my bramble!?

I seem to recall...that your guide is among the stickied isn't it?

So therefore...isn't among the random one's.

But...ya it sucked :lol:

:drink: :buddies: :yep:

HoS

[InsaneFarmer]

stop complaining, stop reading build guids and go be creative if you're not liking them so much. so BLAH

... I love flaming

[Incubious]

I hate to start with something that'll most likely get flamed, but I just feel like most guides are written by people that only vaguely know what they're talkin about.

If you're gonna give information (let alone tell people how to play) I just think you need to know if there's a better variation of the build that you're putting up here. Which I've found several times.

I dunno. just felt like throwin my card in the hat and saying that it's an annoyance to me personally. I built a character from the forums that sounded interesting, built it to a T, and it was AWFUL. Picked up the recommended items by trading a lot, logged a lotta time, and then deleted him about a week after he was finished.

Build was from this Necromancer forum btw.

/sigh.

Don't hate, appreciate.... they work hard to give u some damn guides that shouldn't be needed in the first place....Support their work....
Besides, this is one guide.... have you read any others? You can't have beef with guides unless you only dislike one.... Try contacting the writer and expressing yer opinions... don't start trouble....

[gvandale]

righteous pancake

hos: you suck

pancake!

[Mad Mantis]

Ok g, keep the nonsense in the OT. :drink: :buddies:

[gvandale]

Ok g, keep the nonsense in the OT. :drink: :buddies:
its not non-sense.

to translate into english:
The comments made by InsaneFarmer and Incubious were 'righteous', or 'very cool'. I agree with them wholeheartedly.

As for HOS's comments on the end of page 1, my response was:
You suck.

I hope this clarifies any confusion there may have been.

g

pancake

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

its not non-sense.

to translate into english:
The comments made by InsaneFarmer and Incubious were 'righteous', or 'very cool'. I agree with them wholeheartedly.

As for HOS's comments on the end of page 1, my response was:
You suck.

I hope this clarifies any confusion there may have been.

g

pancake

If your guide sucked so bad g...it wouldn't be up in the stickies and I wouldn't have made the build yet again.

I'm gonna go take my suxxorz venomancer into nm cows...so my merc no longer suxxorz 2.

HoS

[Necrochild313]

My guide's not done yet, and neither is MMs. Flame us for that.


pancake

*reports*

[Indemaijinj]

Ok, before this spins totally out of control, let me inject a few of my sentiments in the fray.


I think one of the chief sources of bad build guides is a wrong attitude.

There are in my mind two motivations to write build guides.

One is the wish to invent and maybe get credit for a new build type or subtype.

The other is to shed light on a build type that has not yet been covered by the build "litterature".


In my opinion it is the second incentive that has produced some of the greatest guides.



Take Ash's Frenzy Guide. Did he invent the Frenzy barb? Certainly not. Did he somehow "reinvent" the Frenzy barb? No, Frenzy barbs has always been around. Even his skill distribution or gear choices are in no way "news".
What makes Ash's guide so great then? The fact that he describes the Frenzy build in so great detail and in a language that is easy to understand and a joy to read by both newbie and veteran.

Nightfish didn't invent hot water or the spoon either. Sure his guide came to light when the newfound 1.10 might of the skelliemancer was still a somewhat "fresh" topic, but Skeleton Warrior based skelliemancers had already been done by nearly everyone and the benefits of a maxed Corpse Explosion was already known by the community at large. I refuse to believe that Nightfish is the first to get the idea of combining the two.
What Nightfish can really be credited for is popularizing a powerful, easy to play and hardy breed of necromancers that has served many a new player well.


I am not trying to say that you shouldn't try to be inventive. Sometimes revolutions do happen.

Mongojerry's lovable Grizabella (and the following Enchantress guide) managed to singlehandedly put the Enchantress on the big Diablo 2 build map. Before that enchantresses were mostly regarded as obscure "variant scum". Now it is one of the Sorceress stables along with the Meteorbers and discussion about the merits of various gear setups and other details are a common sight.

The Kbob's famed Commandomancer is also a good example of an inventive build taking a lot of 1.10 features and combining them in a novel way. He managed to take the somewhat marginal general (melee/skellies) subtype and turn him into a powerhouse that not only ruled over the forces of the three, but also had an unheard degree of PvP ownage for such an odd build.


But even though these builds might be novel what really makes them shine is the attention to both the whole and the detail, the infelt love for the subject and the ability to disseminate the subject matter in a clear and engaging language.
This is what makes a build guide great, no matter if the build is cutting edge or an "oldie".


If you are trying to be inventive you should also take into consideration how you write your guides. Some people automatically assumes that the form seen in many of the "great guides" is the best form. Personally I believe it is only good when you have a more or less finalised stable build you want to teach others.

If your build is still on an experimental stage it is better to choose another form of guide where more attention is given to the tactical considerations behind the different choice and where discussions about various different routes or implementations plays a more important role. In an experimental build guide the concern for "neatness" is less pressing.


My list of "uncharted necro territory" (build types who have not yet been described in build guides):

The no-skellie Meleemancer.
The 1.10 Lord of the Mages (arguably a bit "variant'ish").
Other types of melee/summon (summon/dagger, vampiric general).
Poison AND bone hybrid.
Minionless Explodocro.
Various Bow-using necromancers.
..and there might be more who eludes my grasp right now.



Also another note: Please don't be too possessive about your build. Even if it is an innovative one. Mongojerry could have passed himself around as the father of all (1.10) enchantresses, but he doesn't and he looks better that way.

I think the Kbob has caught a litte of the "possessive bug" sometimes acting (even though it could be unintentionally) as though he has a patent on melee/summon necromancers. I understand that he wants to reserve the name "commandomancer" for a necromancer made around his principles (the use of auras, skellies as an extra "bone armor"m etc.) but he is not the owner of the general subtype, merely one of it's chief intellectual contributors.

[CEG]

Oh man, just the word "explodocra" makes me shudder in disgust. Also a Poison and Bone hybrid will soon be covered. I am still testing things out on mine, I could put up a preliminary build but I am waiting till I have a bit more experience with him in pvp.

But I think you summed up guide writing as a concept fairly well.

[leddan]

If you don't like someone's guide, don't use it. It's pretty simple & not meant to be a flame at all. A lot of times if i'm unsure of a build, i'll read through some of the guides in a forum & then incorporate some of the writer's builds in with my own ideas. Sometimes it works out great & sometimes a total clusterf*ck. Still fun to try & be original at the same time.

[Ash Housewares]

how's the frenzy barb coming?

[Indemaijinj]

Oh man, just the word "explodocra" makes me shudder in disgust. Also a Poison and Bone hybrid will soon be covered. I am still testing things out on mine, I could put up a preliminary build but I am waiting till I have a bit more experience with him in pvp.

But I think you summed up guide writing as a concept fairly well.


Without the cheesy iron golems of younder days an explodocro will actually have to use a modicum of brains in order to beat the game.

I reckon creating a 1.10 solo explodocro would be an exercise in crowd control making full use of bonewalls, AI curses, Fire and Clay Golems and Decrepify coupled with a Bone Spirit to start the chain reaction (the bone spirit would be synergised by the Wall and Prison to become semidecent for starting the chain reaction.

For bosses he would use Nightfish's procing mod appliance tool (EthEthEthEthShaelWhateverrocksyourboat in a Phase Blade).

I was also thinking about a Demolition Ranger using some sort of ranged weapon to get the first kill.

[47thRonin]

:lol:

First time some one else called me a vet and really, MM has been here prob twice as long as I have. Oh the simple irony.

~Kbob

You have 2k+ post count. Is that not "vetly" enough? :lol:

-47thRonin

[Patsy]

Well!

Thank goodness that it wasn't one of *my* established 'humorous theme builds'! I don't make those for 'pwnage' or anything of the sort. Any individual here with an ounce (or approximately 28.4 grams) of initiative could easily make something with more killing power than any of mine, but you see, I try to have this thing called *FUN* with my builds. If you're not after *FUN*, then please, don't use the Matador, Pranceomancer, Cupid, or Mother! These are for professional use only! :flip:

*GRIN*

Thank you, HoS, for being considered an author of a build you would try. Makes my day.

Oh.. darn... Father's Day is approaching! I've another theme build to make! And fast!

Father's day... Father's day... what is a father...? Ohmy ohmy ohmy...

-Patsy
"I got a sweater for Christmas...

What I really wanted was a screamer or a moaner."