Comparison of two diff. builds...

[xaal]

My first necromancer, at level 75, had the following spec.

Max Raise Skel
Max Skel Mastery
Max Poision Nova.
Pts into decrepify, pre-reqs, revives.

I got to hell Mode and couldnt kill a damn thing. Zombies, fallens, were given me a hard hard time. Poison Nova at level 25 or so was absolutely worthless (I had no pts to pump synergies b/c of all my pts being put into the summoning line). Even once i killed the first Fallen to get my first skelly, i still couldn't kill things quick enough. I followed the skellimancer guide and he sucked IMO. I had made a White wand (with a + to revive and + to iron golem on it), so i decided to make a Bone Mage.

So, i stripped my character down, gave all his gear to the new guy, and made my new necro with this spec at level 75...

Max Bone Spirit
Max Bone Arrow
Max Bone Wall
No pts in bone prison (waiting to acquire Marrowwalks)
Rest pts into teeth.
1 pt into pre-reqs for Decrep and decrep.
No Summononing

This character is SO much better at the exact same stage in the game. With +s to revive and iron golem from my wand, i had to spend no points there to get use from these skills. Dropping basically every point into the Bone line gives me amazing damage.

What I love the most though, is Bone Wall. Drop a maxxed bone wall down and every monster ive come across so far just can't resist whacking away at it! Allowing me to just MOW them down with my bone spear. Any monsters not amused by the bone wall will get into a fight with my revives or golem, still leaving me untouched to fire my bone arrows.

Having hardly any Magic Immune monsters is also a very big plus =).

In conclusion, at the exact same stage in the game, my Bone Mage with the exact same items is FAR superior than my Skellimancer was. I would reccomend a Bone Mage (some ppl call them Boners but i think Bone mage sounds a lot cooler) to anyone wanting to start a new necro!

-Xaal

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

My first necromancer, at level 75, had the following spec.

Max Raise Skel
Max Skel Mastery
Max Poision Nova.
Pts into decrepify, pre-reqs, revives.

I got to hell Mode and couldnt kill a damn thing. Zombies, fallens, were given me a hard hard time. Poison Nova at level 25 or so was absolutely worthless (I had no pts to pump synergies b/c of all my pts being put into the summoning line). Even once i killed the first Fallen to get my first skelly, i still couldn't kill things quick enough. I followed the skellimancer guide and he sucked IMO. I had made a White wand (with a + to revive and + to iron golem on it), so i decided to make a Bone Mage.

So, i stripped my character down, gave all his gear to the new guy, and made my new necro with this spec at level 75...

Max Bone Spirit
Max Bone Arrow
Max Bone Wall
No pts in bone prison (waiting to acquire Marrowwalks)
Rest pts into teeth.
1 pt into pre-reqs for Decrep and decrep.
No Summononing

This character is SO much better at the exact same stage in the game. With +s to revive and iron golem from my wand, i had to spend no points there to get use from these skills. Dropping basically every point into the Bone line gives me amazing damage.

What I love the most though, is Bone Wall. Drop a maxxed bone wall down and every monster ive come across so far just can't resist whacking away at it! Allowing me to just MOW them down with my bone spear. Any monsters not amused by the bone wall will get into a fight with my revives or golem, still leaving me untouched to fire my bone arrows.

Having hardly any Magic Immune monsters is also a very big plus =).

In conclusion, at the exact same stage in the game, my Bone Mage with the exact same items is FAR superior than my Skellimancer was. I would reccomend a Bone Mage (some ppl call them Boners but i think Bone mage sounds a lot cooler) to anyone wanting to start a new necro!

-Xaal


Reason why your first one stunk up the joint...was because you didn't bother with the other 2 poison skills to give you the poison damage needed...and with the remaining points(after your Curses was taken care of) should have been into Skeleton Mastery and Skeletons(max Skeletons first).

Now...the reason why your Bonemancer is doing so well...IS because of the Bone Wall, Spirit and Spear all are synergies(just like the 3 poison skills are)

HoS

[xaal]

Yeah my first character was a mistake. My Skelly army kicked *** in NM, but in hell they weren't enough. Just a heads up to any necron00b not to make the same mistakes as me!

[Slipin]

Reason why your first one stunk up the joint...was because you didn't bother with the other 2 poison skills to give you the poison damage needed...and with the remaining points(after your Curses was taken care of) should have been into Skeleton Mastery and Skeletons(max Skeletons first).

Now...the reason why your Bonemancer is doing so well...IS because of the Bone Wall, Spirit and Spear all are synergies(just like the 3 poison skills are)

HoS Nicely said, HoS. My skellymancer kills just fine in hell, well mines more of a fishymancer. Anyways, if you decide do remake your summoner, take a look at some of the stickies in DKs post.

[xeyloderixed]

i can offer some suggestions as to why some builds do/dont work,because i quested most of the game with all three builds (psn/summon, bone/summon, boner).

bone/summon

this is my first attempt at a real necro. i first concentrated on the skeleton tree, put 1 pt in lower resist, and put the rest into the bone tree. i have to say, this is the most solid build out of the three: never had any problems whatsoever. gear included: shako/2 sojs/skullders/homo/wiz/maras/ frosties/marrows/tgods/3 pnb gc/2 summon gc/ 20/20/10 anni. merc had eth gaze/shaft/cmoon ogre axe. unfirtunately, he died to conviction gloams when i wasnt paying attention.

boner

probably the most fun of the three, and the second most powerful. a2, parts of a3, and parts of a5 gave me troubles, because of the presence of magic immunes, but nothing a merc can handle. gear selection is the same with the bone/nec above, merc has lionheart, bhew, tals mask. i maxed all the bone spells first, 1 into cay golem, then the rest into dim vision (i use him mostly for solo baal runs, and dying in hc is not an option).

psn/summon

this is the weakest quester of the three, and the most item dependent. i want to start with the gear selection, so you ave an idea of how expensive he can be: shako w/ 5/5 facet/maras/hoto/trangs 3 piece/soj/wisp/marrows and my super l33t 20/20 24 fhr armor (or for those not in the know, jewelers embossed plat of stability socketed with 4 5/5 psn facets). i must admit, i didnt complete this armor until i finished questing him through, but still, i did 3.5k pnova damage when i started hell and still had trouble killing a lot of stuff. and even in nm, it was really a pain, because i decided to finish my psn tree first after the initial 20 rs/1 sm/1 sr in the summon tree, meaning both trees are underdeveloped. in hell, where i was almost done with the psn tree, i had troubles killing psn immunes, and some normall monsters with high hp.

that said, this is the build you want in the late, late game. and by that i mean 90++, the farther you lvl the better. as you put more and more into the skeletons (assuming you are done with the psn tree) you will have a better, balanced, two pronged attack. i was struggling to solo baal when i was lvl 85; now at 92 i do them almost flawlessly (almost because the skeletons still have low hp and around 2-4 of the 12 die to lister).

hope this helps.

[uncreativereally]

i can offer some suggestions as to why some builds do/dont work,because i quested most of the game with all three builds (psn/summon, bone/summon, boner).

bone/summon

this is my first attempt at a real necro. i first concentrated on the skeleton tree, put 1 pt in lower resist, and put the rest into the bone tree. i have to say, this is the most solid build out of the three: never had any problems whatsoever. gear included: shako/2 sojs/skullders/homo/wiz/maras/ frosties/marrows/tgods/3 pnb gc/2 summon gc/ 20/20/10 anni. merc had eth gaze/shaft/cmoon ogre axe. unfirtunately, he died to conviction gloams when i wasnt paying attention.

boner

probably the most fun of the three, and the second most powerful. a2, parts of a3, and parts of a5 gave me troubles, because of the presence of magic immunes, but nothing a merc can handle. gear selection is the same with the bone/nec above, merc has lionheart, bhew, tals mask. i maxed all the bone spells first, 1 into cay golem, then the rest into dim vision (i use him mostly for solo baal runs, and dying in hc is not an option).

psn/summon

this is the weakest quester of the three, and the most item dependent. i want to start with the gear selection, so you ave an idea of how expensive he can be: shako w/ 5/5 facet/maras/hoto/trangs 3 piece/soj/wisp/marrows and my super l33t 20/20 24 fhr armor (or for those not in the know, jewelers embossed plat of stability socketed with 4 5/5 psn facets). i must admit, i didnt complete this armor until i finished questing him through, but still, i did 3.5k pnova damage when i started hell and still had trouble killing a lot of stuff. and even in nm, it was really a pain, because i decided to finish my psn tree first after the initial 20 rs/1 sm/1 sr in the summon tree, meaning both trees are underdeveloped. in hell, where i was almost done with the psn tree, i had troubles killing psn immunes, and some normall monsters with high hp.

that said, this is the build you want in the late, late game. and by that i mean 90++, the farther you lvl the better. as you put more and more into the skeletons (assuming you are done with the psn tree) you will have a better, balanced, two pronged attack. i was struggling to solo baal when i was lvl 85; now at 92 i do them almost flawlessly (almost because the skeletons still have low hp and around 2-4 of the 12 die to lister).

hope this helps.
Poison Summoner the weakest? My psn summoner is my best character he has no troble killing baal or his minions. Right now he's at lvl 88 and he has run into many problems since about lvl 60.

[xeyloderixed]

#1 did you quest through? what lvl did you enter hell?
#2 compare the expense/power between the three. is it worth it?

[gvandale]

#1 did you quest through? what lvl did you enter hell?
#2 compare the expense/power between the three. is it worth it?
your an idiot. take your head out of your bum-bum. p/s roxor joo coxor!

g

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

#1 did you quest through? what lvl did you enter hell?
#2 compare the expense/power between the three. is it worth it?

I've made all 3...but these questions are about a Venomancer I'll base them on that.

Answer 1-Yes I quested through(and have Necrochild313 to confirm it)

Answer 2-Entered Hell at 63

Answer 3-I used a different wand until 66(found a +2 +2 -48 Death Web) it took my Poison a little bit longer(but was still effective) to kill. Only "real problems was the act4-5 lightning monters like souls.

Once I hit 66 though...the Poison killed faster(even without LR)and still had problems with act4-5 lightning monsters like souls. Took down the IM chumps in acts 4-5 without much problem...and as for the "smurfs" it was even easier.

***But who doesn't have those problems anyway with the souls?***

HoS

[xeyloderixed]

I've made all 3...but these questions are about a
Answer 3-I used a different wand until 66(found a +2 +2 -48 Death Web) it took my Poison a little bit longer(but was still effective) to kill. Only "real problems was the act4-5 lightning monters like souls.

the point of the matter is, it DOES take longer to kill with a venomancer than the other two types, in the "early stages" (around 60-85) just because, as i said, both trees are underdeveloped.

gvan: i am a bit more patient than other people, and i have a huge "flaming threshold". nevertheless, if you're not gonna post anything useful, i would kindly suggest taking your "head out of your bum-bum".

uncreative: as i said, maybe you haven't tried all three types? the venomancer is the weakest of the three until 85++, then he does become the strongest (as far as killing power/safety goes)

[uncreativereally]

uncreative: as i said, maybe you haven't tried all three types? the venomancer is the weakest of the three until 85++, then he does become the strogest (as far as killing power/safety goes)Who said anything about venomancers? I was talking about poison summoners. In the low lvls they do fine because you start off maxing summon skills first so you don't have the problem the venomancers do early on.

I have a pure summoner, a boner, and a psn/summoner so I have tried 2 of the 3 builds.

[gvandale]

gvan: i am a bit more patient than other people, and i have a huge "flaming threshold". nevertheless, if you're not gonna post anything useful, i would kindly suggest taking your "head out of your bum-bum".

uncreative: as i said, maybe you haven't tried all three types? the venomancer is the weakest of the three until 85++, then he does become the strongest (as far as killing power/safety goes)
i finally read your above post all the way through...i think blood dripped from my eyes mid way through...

so the point being is that your an underdeveloped player, not one that is using a udnerdeveloped build.

a poison / summon hybrid is by far the easiest to level up, as you have a good killer skill early.

I'll explain...

With a poison / summong you can abuse the poison dagger bug early on. 1-5 points here will easily take you through to level 20. At which point you can have maxed out raise skeleton. This will easily take you a few more levels to get your 1 sm / sr skills and gumby skills. From here, you can start investing into PN which is an obvious choice. It won't be a great killer until fully synergized, so you can expect to rely on your skellies to kill. Just utilize your level 1 CE like a standard summoning necro would. This strategy will easily take you pretty much through to a fully synergized PN and a kickass p/s necromancer.

welcome to my world. :drink:

g

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

Well...a Venomancer once it get most of the poison skills done...is able to go into hell at a lower level. While most go into hell at 70-77...I chose to go at 63 because I've had a Venomancer/hybrid before and I knew what it could do.

Though...I didn't bother with Skeletons first and went with trying to get the most poison damage and my Curses done before I went to hell. And it takes only a few seconds to wait for a monster to die(before I was able to get to my Death's Web).

Once you have all your poison skills done and your equipment on...a Venomancer has very little problems(only the Souls in act 4 and 5 have been mine)

HoS

[gvandale]

exactly. if you go the straight poison route, there's little to stand in your way. if your a hybrid, it's even easier.

my first hybrid went with maxing skel first, so on and so forth as mentioned above. This was easy.

my second build (current) was maxing poison skills first, and was quite easy. easier then the first time at least.

g

[xeyloderixed]

just to clarify, AGAIN.

it is still a powerful build. yes it can solo hell. yes it can kill reasonably well. but seriously, is it faster than the other builds? i dont think so.

the point of the matter is, for both the other builds, the damage (bone) is irresistable. meaning, even though you don't have quite that large an area effect as poison nova, you don't care about immunities, and that makes it so much easier to quest through. venomancers have to rely on their weak skellies to get around immunities, and that makes tham weaker in my opinion.

and i will say it again: venomancers are THE best once you are past 85, and thats because you have enough points in both trees that they can function separately.

[uncreativereally]

just to clarify, AGAIN.

it is still a powerful build. yes it can solo hell. yes it can kill reasonably well. but seriously, is it faster than the other builds? i dont think so.

the point of the matter is, for both the other builds, the damage (bone) is irresistable. meaning, even though you don't have quite that large an area effect as poison nova, you don't care about immunities, and that makes it so much easier to quest through. venomancers have to rely on their weak skellies to get around immunities, and that makes tham weaker in my opinion.

and i will say it again: venomancers are THE best once you are past 85, and thats because you have enough points in both trees that they can function separately.
Guardians, Unravelers, and Horadrim Ancients are all immune to magic so no it isn't irresistable.

Your not understanding the psn/summon build the skeletons aren't weak they are maxxed with max mastery.

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

As soon as Venomancer gets to 66...if he has a Death's Web...he becomes a Legend In His Own Mind. Then...only Stupidity and Lightning monsters can kill you.

HoS

[xeyloderixed]

Guardians, Unravelers, and Horadrim Ancients are all immune to magic so no it isn't irresistable.

Your not understanding the psn/summon build the skeletons aren't weak they are maxxed with max mastery.

look at the venomancer guide (stickied a week before) and hos's own posts. if i gather correctly u will have max mastery at lvl 100.

[gvandale]

max mastery is not necessary. my p/s hybrid has 1 base point into mastery, and does a quick ****&pillage of most of a1-5 hell, solo or multi player games. it's a great build, and I think you knocked it a bit hard.

might i also add, how much experience do you have PLAYING this char?

pancakes

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

max mastery is not necessary. my p/s hybrid has 1 base point into mastery, and does a quick ****&pillage of most of a1-5 hell, solo or multi player games. it's a great build, and I think you knocked it a bit hard.

might i also add, how much experience do you have PLAYING this char?

pancakes

True...really only need 5 to 10 into Skeleton Mastery if that...cuz the +skills will do the rest for you.

My Venomancer is at 81 at the moment...has a base of 15 into Skeletons and 2 into Mastery.Though when I add my +skills it becomes 21 into Skeletons and 10 into Mastery.

I'm not going to worry about getting 11 Skeletons out to fight...but be content with 9 stronger one's out. So...I'm working on getting Mastery Up a bit more.

HoS

[Havoc One]

Don't know what you did, but a Skelliemancer is the most powerfull character in the game. Mine does Baal runs solo wearing nearly 600 MF. The ONLY character I have that can do this in 1.10.

A well played, well built Skelliemancer is completely unstopable, all the way to, and including, Hell Baal.

[xeyloderixed]

lets see, how much experience.

well, i did quest solo, and i solo baal whenever i have time. i do a5 runs in pubby full games. and no, i dont own a deaths web (out of the discussion, this is not a question of wealth, it's a question of build).

sorry, but i guess i should have stated in my post that my comments were for "acquirable" items. not everyone has 13904782 5/5 facets and deaths web. the comparison was mostly for items you can get off (insert meff here). deaths web is not one of those items.

i DO know the power of the build. it was just rough at the start, as i have said 32490752309 times in this thread this is most likely the best nec i've built (well, except for killing bosses :lol: )

[heilskov]

Im offended by what you say about the vennom/summoner hybrid being the weakest of the 3.

first of all, a venomancer has no trouble getting corpses for eg. revives or skeles. Something a summoners/ bone hybrid would have(compaird to the venom build)

sec. a psn nova is a really nice crowd controll skill.. Bonespirt and bonespear suck when compaired.

a good bonespirit does what? 4k dmg, yes its magical, but so what ?
a good venomancer does 8k+ psn nova, and has atleast -30 psn to monster res.

psn nova owns a pure skelewarrior summoner in killing speed (atleast I think so, probably twice as fast as a summoner/boner)

[uncreativereally]

look at the venomancer guide (stickied a week before) and hos's own posts. if i gather correctly u will have max mastery at lvl 100.I find his guide flawed and made my own guide. Don't think that everyone uses only the guides posted here also he was only the first to post the guide here it doesn't mean thats the best or even a correct guide.

sorry, but i guess i should have stated in my post that my comments were for "acquirable" items. not everyone has 13904782 5/5 facets and deaths web. the comparison was mostly for items you can get off (insert meff here). deaths web is not one of those items.

i DO know the power of the build. it was just rough at the start, as i have said 32490752309 times in this thread this is most likely the best nec i've built (well, except for killing bosses :lol: )If I can get a deaths web ANYONE can. I have the worst luck and i don't play 24/7 but even I could get a deaths web.
I have zero problems killing bosses clay golem + decrep+ merc's cold damage = bosses not being able to fight back, and with my merc's CB a bosses life goes away really quick.

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

I find his guide flawed and made my own guide. Don't think that everyone uses only the guides posted here also he was only the first to post the guide here it doesn't mean thats the best or even a correct guide.

If I can get a deaths web ANYONE can. I have the worst luck and i don't play 24/7 but even I could get a deaths web.
I have zero problems killing bosses clay golem + decrep+ merc's cold damage = bosses not being able to fight back, and with my merc's CB a bosses life goes away really quick.

Which guide? There are 3 guides that have to do with a Venomancer in the stickies.

HoS

[deadbeater]

xaal--lower resist is your friend. It breaks poison immunities at high levels.

And you went to hell without it??

[WhiteD]

Don't know what you did, but a Skelliemancer is the most powerfull character in the game. Mine does Baal runs solo wearing nearly 600 MF. The ONLY character I have that can do this in 1.10.

A well played, well built Skelliemancer is completely unstopable, all the way to, and including, Hell Baal.

Interesting, could you tell me how your Skelliemancer is build.
I have a lvl 72 Skelliemancer, very bad gear and i am in act 1 hell and having a lot of trouble, especially getting my first kill.