Mageslayer Kicker report

[sk8brdnick]

Sometime ago I decided to build a mageslayer similar to the guide posted in these forums. I was attracted to the build because my wealth on the ladder is slightly limited and kickers are exceptionally easy to equip (for a pvp character). They don't need huge amounts of +skills, +dmg, ar life charms, IAS speed gear, or expensive rune words. In fact their gear is exceptionally flexible making them fairly well rounded.

Skills:

-Max Talon
-Venom
-Enough point in WB for 60% with gear
-1 pt MB
-1 pt WOF
-1 pt blade fury
-1 pt shadow master
-working on maxing DF

My gear is far from godly, 1600 life, AR is around 6000 and my dmg is only 1200 (before OW and venom) but I have been terrorizing the pubbies with this character. I absolutely love her. I enjoy builds that are challenging but effective. This build does an exceptional job of capitalizing on the weakness of most people's builds. So many people go for huge dmg output neglect important things like PDR and FHR.

Thus far, she has trashed just about every class except for good barbs. Barbs are the undisputed king of melee, no melee build can really compete against a good one. She has done very respectably against the cheese builds (teleporting necs and hammerdins). Certain type of people gravitate to those builds. If you get 1 of 3 against a decent lvl 91 teleporting hammerdin using CTA, then you should feel pride. Against necs and hammerdins with more average gear, you will fair very well.

Anyway, if you are thinking about building a kicker, go for it. Very inexpensive and very effective. I love mine.

[SMG]

Any Caster with 75% block, 30% Dr, Max Posion Res and a BO from CTA will kill you with no problem. Especially necros who have bugged bone armor+ 75% block + BO will tear you apart. Wind druids with SS+BO will kill you also with no problem. The only classes that you would be effective against are probably low life casters without BO and low block or using a lidless shields or no shield melee builds.

[Lunatic]

Any Caster with 75% block, 30% Dr, Max Posion Res and a BO from CTA will kill you with no problem. Especially necros who have bugged bone armor+ 75% block + BO will tear you apart. Wind druids with SS+BO will kill you also with no problem. The only classes that you would be effective against are probably low life casters without BO and low block or using a lidless shields or no shield melee builds.
Not everyone has to resolve to CTA in pvp you know?

[sk8brdnick]

Any Caster with 75% block, 30% Dr, Max Posion Res and a BO from CTA will kill you with no problem. Especially necros who have bugged bone armor+ 75% block + BO will tear you apart. Wind druids with SS+BO will kill you also with no problem. The only classes that you would be effective against are probably low life casters without BO and low block or using a lidless shields or no shield melee builds.

Actually you are dead wrong. She has faired very well. Between talon dmg, 100% open wounds and of course venom she is quite capable of taking down even high life builds. I have a suspicion that talon dmg displays lower than actual dmg.

With her very fast runspeed, weapon block, a bit of absorb (single raven, single dwarf and tgods) and monster stacked resist where necassary she survives very well against anything but magic dmg without resorting to cheesy CTA and mass absorb. Lets face it though, enigma necs and hammerdins are way over powered and a tough match up for pretty much any class. Casters attacks are generally interruptable and they can all be neutalized with skilled use of WOF and MB. Kickers are very capable of killing ANY mage, but it takes finesse.

What's wrong with being the underdog? It feels better when you win!

[Sephiroth[TR]]

agree with SMG...
got a kicker to.. altough not with 100 OW.. wich is imo kinda lame just hit once and wait few sec til they life drop to 1 and go for kill...

My kicker stats :with 14k ar 1.7k life 1.2k dmg from talong without venom calc in and max res in hel. She almost kickd herself to death on a ES sorc with Shivering armor.... ( imagine when she attacks me.. )
And some necro can easely tank a Kicksin...

[SMG]

Im not saying that a mageslayer is weak against certain casters, ofcourse you will be effective against a sorc in a viper skin with a lidless or any other low life damage oriented casters, but when you see a caster such as bone armored necro with BO you can type gg right away.

[sk8brdnick]

Like I said earlier, my kicker was built for pubbie dueling and she excels there. Hardly anyone seems to have any defense or FHR as most everyone seems to go for high dmg. Killing is no problem at all. Considering how cheap she was to build she works exceptionally well particularly as I get better with mb and wof. I don't expect to stomp every CTA/enigma cheese build out there, nor would I want to resort to such builds myself.

If I wanted a more serious dueler I would have built a ww sin. They are much stronger, but then again you need things like ohm runes to build one of those. All in all I'm very happy with her.

[chaos9]

Any Caster with 75% block, 30% Dr, Max Posion Res and a BO from CTA will kill you with no problem. Especially necros who have bugged bone armor+ 75% block + BO will tear you apart. Wind druids with SS+BO will kill you also with no problem. The only classes that you would be effective against are probably low life casters without BO and low block or using a lidless shields or no shield melee builds.

This is simply not true. I have beaten many casters with this gear. Are they more difficult? Certainly. Are the impossible to beat? Hardly.

[chaos9]

As the author of the Mageslayer guide (in the guide sticky), I have been using this build extensively and will share my observations here about her strengths and weaknesses.

First, be aware that there are certain character types who will almost always beat you using this build. Specifically, you will almost never beat a good ww sin or a hammerdin. The hammerdin will kill you with one hit, and the ww sin will simply ww through your attacks.

At the same time, it is simply not true that casters with uber gear are impossible to beat. Just yesterday, I defeated 2 wind druids and a necro in a 3 vs 1 match. Each of them was wearing enigma, and one of the druids was casting BO. I was level 77, and they were 81-85. Granted, they were doing a lousy job of triple-teaming me, and so it was more like going from one to the other. But they all died quickly, and I made it to town with about 5 life left.

Caster gear/attributes that will make duels harder for you include 50% pdr, max blocking, extremely fast teleport, and in the case of the cold sorc, maxed cold mastery. Again, these attributes will make things harder, but not impossible. Have I been beaten by casters? Of course. The point is that I consistently beat 95% of those ones I encounter.

Paladins are a special case because their high defense requires you to wear angelic items. Even then, they are extremely difficult. During some recent team duels in which a chargedin and I dueled a necro, a sorc, a charge/smite pally, I could easily take out the necro and sorc. However, the pally was consistently beating us both. He would smite my comrade to death when charged, and I could hurt him enough to get the kill before being smited to death too. When I changed strategies and resorted to a combination of WoF and mind blast, the tables turned and he was soon dead. When I stun-locked him, my ally could take him apart easily.

[SMG]

Yes wof and MB is a killer but it requires a lot of mana.

How do you beat a marrowwalk necro with bo ?
I beleive that if you DF in, you will get a few kicks in until the necro recovers and starts releasing BS point blank or when he gets out of any stunlock, so basically you take 3-4 bs and you died? Tell me how you defeat those necros.

[dave2412]

I find it useful to have a Widowmaker (Um'ed) on switch. This is for dueling chars you don't want to get close to, like hammerdins, windy druids, and so on.

I'm also curious about how much life you have on your kicker. I have 1200-1300, and find it difficult to tank certain builds (bone necros, windy druids, etc).

[sk8brdnick]

Yes wof and MB is a killer but it requires a lot of mana.

How do you beat a marrowwalk necro with bo ?
I beleive that if you DF in, you will get a few kicks in until the necro recovers and starts releasing BS point blank or when he gets out of any stunlock, so basically you take 3-4 bs and you died? Tell me how you defeat those necros.

Why are you belaboring this point? The build you describe is even more outrageously overpowered than the 1.09 knockback/pierce zon. No one should be able to consistently beat a good telenecro with BO but thankfully most of them aren't good!

Stunlock, DF, kick kick run... repeat if necassary. When they are almost dead, finish em with mindblast. Most necros suck and you can drop them with surprising ease.

[sk8brdnick]

I find it useful to have a Widowmaker (Um'ed) on switch. This is for dueling chars you don't want to get close to, like hammerdins, windy druids, and so on.

I'm also curious about how much life you have on your kicker. I have 1200-1300, and find it difficult to tank certain builds (bone necros, windy druids, etc).

I need to find a widowmaker. I'm curious to try one out. Seem that it could be very valuable for taking out necs and the like.

My kicker has 1600 life and is lvl 76. I find that to be enough life and now I'm working in pumping str. You simply can't tank hammerdins, necs and windy druids unless you have insane life so you need to rely on MB and WOF so you don't have to.

[VoxMagnus]

i have a querry about venom. Does it effect kick attacks? it seems like a stupid question but i dont know??

[Sephiroth[TR]]

yes venom does work on kicks altouhg it doesnt show on the screen. Thats why i first thought it didnt work Oo

and sure i manage to get lucky and DF the necro ( if i didnt got speared to death trying to get close or teeth ) Second if im standing before him he starts spearing me and its all over for me... And dont compare to the crap necros or sorcies.. Oufcourse i have taken countless amount of necros and sorc down.. but this build isnt as great as it descripes to be vs caster.. ( 3hit dying sorc arent even worth dueling.. )

And i also notice vs windy i may as wel ask for unhostile.. unles hes using a Lidles and a ful aldur set...

And since this is pubie
why bother running with a Widow on switch ? everything that has engima wil just tele on top of u.. and i have no problems with teleporting on top of kicksins.. as i know there damm fragile.

[dave2412]

But not everyone has enigma. Even with enigma, you can play the run around with them, shooting every so often to trigger ow+venom. Anyway, I think it's a good idea just to have a Widowmaker in your stash for those that don't have enigma.

[VoxMagnus]

But not everyone has enigma. Even with enigma, you can play the run around with them, shooting every so often to trigger ow+venom. Anyway, I think it's a good idea just to have a Widowmaker in your stash for those that don't have enigma.
im goin to sound like a big noob but...wats a widowmaker???

[dave2412]

It's a unique bow that lets anyone use the Guided Arrow skill with it.
You can check it out here. (http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/elite/ubows.shtml)

[sk8brdnick]

Well crap on the build if you want. Personally I have had a high degree of success with it. Funny you should call kickers fragile. I don't find them to be fragile at all. They have the benefit of weapon block as well as extremely flexible gear (for instance the ability to easily stack +300% cold resist). The thing about windies, bone necs and hammerdins is the only way you will win is not getting hit. It doesn't matter if you have 1000 life or 4000 life, you probably can't tank em. With practice, weapon block, MB/WOF and the minion DF bug give you a chance to do some dmg and get out without getting hit.

Maybe it's just not the build for you, but it works great for me. I have no desire to play cheesy overpowered builds involving CTA, enigma and synnergy bugs, but my underpowered kicker still wins over 90% of her duels. When ladder ends, I will probably continue to duel pubbies and in clan honor. Not bad for a character with far from godly gear! For you people who want to beat every single ebay nec or hammerdin out there, go build your own ebay nec or hammerdin with even more expensive gear and taking advantage of even more bugs. Personally, I'm happy only killing the ones that suck...

[Ragnarok-]

Well crap on the build if you want. Personally I have had a high degree of success with it. Funny you should call kickers fragile. I don't find them to be fragile at all. They have the benefit of weapon block as well as extremely flexible gear (for instance the ability to easily stack +300% cold resist). The thing about windies, bone necs and hammerdins is the only way you will win is not getting hit. It doesn't matter if you have 1000 life or 4000 life, you probably can't tank em. With practice, weapon block, MB/WOF and the minion DF bug give you a chance to do some dmg and get out without getting hit.

Maybe it's just not the build for you, but it works great for me. I have no desire to play cheesy overpowered builds involving CTA, enigma and synnergy bugs, but my underpowered kicker still wins over 90% of her duels. When ladder ends, I will probably continue to duel pubbies and in clan honor. Not bad for a character with far from godly gear! For you people who want to beat every single ebay nec or hammerdin out there, go build your own ebay nec or hammerdin with even more expensive gear and taking advantage of even more bugs. Personally, I'm happy only killing the ones that suck...
cheers!

i think kick asn's are awesome, they're one of the least played yet best characters in this game.

*thinks of making a kicksin*

:evil: Raggy :evil:

[skygoneblue]

:yep: That was beautiful dude.

Personally, I am all about the underdog builds in the game. Hence, my obsession with playing assassins!

I really think trading your soul away for tired rune words gets a little old. Sure, HOTO is a good caster weapon for a Trapsin, but please, wouldn't you much rather use a couple of claws that give you +to ASSASSIN skills and that can actually block elemental attacks?

I think that if your build is so dependent on million-dollar rune words to work, it's a pretty ****ty build.

You can build a house out of bricks, or out of popsickle sticks with a hell of a lot of glue - you pick.

[diskoren]

I think the mageslayer build is great. I use it for a level 49 dueller, with 12+k AR, 1200 life, 56% WB.

With her, I've beaten stormshielded, bo:ed level 80+ windys with enigma. No problem, as long as they are offensive. Just lay your WoF:s, wait with your MB for them to teleport on top of you and then go for the kill.

When they are defensive, get close to them (0.5~1 screen), plant a couple of WoF:s between you and your enemy, stunlock and attack.

Oh. Kill the Oak sage if they have one and if they are unexperienced enough to use their grizzly in pvp, dont forget to steal some life from it.

The same with hammerdins, how good are they when they cannot move or cast hammers?

And about those marrowwalkbuggers, nevermind them. :)

Ofc, I've been beaten by the really good ones, but then again, what's the cost of their eq compared to mine? :)

[kronst]

sk8, could you post your gear/stats setup? I was just curious as to if you wore a malice or if you just used a bunch of different OW stuff.

[sk8brdnick]

sk8, could you post your gear/stats setup? I was just curious as to if you wore a malice or if you just used a bunch of different OW stuff.

Not sure of my exact stats, but it's something like this with Lionheart...

Str - 270
Dex - enough to equip tucs with boost from armor or helm
Vit - 300
base Energy

I actually wish that I had pumped str a bit more. It gives a big boost to dmg which I feel could be helpful to pierce necro bone armor more rapidly. The rest of my stat points as I lvl will be devoted to Str.

I pull about 1200 dmg Talon (which actually kills surprisingly well, relatively few of my kills come from poison or OW) and 2400 DF.

-Shako (um)
-Maras
-Lionheart
-Bloodfist
-Tucs (unsocketed)
-Malice
-Tgods
-Raven Frost
-Manald
-Shadow Dancer boots

My charms are a poop ani (10/12/5) a bunch of vitas, a couple fast run and some resist.

Lionheart is great armor and reasonably priced. I highly recommend it though there are many options. I chose malice simply because it's cheap and takes care of all my OW needs allowing a huge degree of gear flexibility. It's also got some mods to help with high def characters. I have 90% FHR and it helps a great deal I think. I feel that it's saved me countless times.

For cold sorcs I swap out shako (after casting BOS and venom of course) and armor for a 3 thul helm and 4 thul armor. This makes a huge difference with cold sorcs. With this setup you can easily completely negate a lvl 35 cold mastery (or above with a few extra charms). I duel in NM by the way...

I have a dwarf star in my inventory for firesorcs.

For physical dmg dealers I use shaft stop.

For templars I use 4 ort armor and a few lightning charms.

I'm going to get some death gloves for poison users.

[skygoneblue]

Ok, so those items aren't godly, but they really aren't cheap either!

[sk8brdnick]

Ok, so those items aren't godly, but they really aren't cheap either!

Almost all the gear I found myself including runes. You can't really build a viable pvp build for a whole lot less. Some gear like shakos and raven frost are more or less indispensible. I don't play that much and I managed to do it. Some savvy trading can go a long way...

[Lyrs]

At lower lvl, 35 that is, I've found a "black" flail to be very useful. 40% crushing blow can really wrack havok on an opponnents ife points, especially when you're kicking so fast with 4+ kicks.

[Frowny]

I agree completely. The mageslayer is actualy quite good considering the gear it requires. After trying hard to make a good pvp character, I found I just wasn't rich enough, but even with pretty crappy gear, my kicker still does great. I'm so poor I still use a peasant crown as my combat helm, but against a caster type character I still do quite well. I can even beat BO/maxblock/dr sorcs and such. The kicks do so much dmg that once you start kicking them, it doesnt matter if they have 1k or 2k life, because they still die very quickly, and there is always venom and OW to get around DR.

Someone asked if the kick dmg is higher then it displays? In a way it is yes. The kick dmg is only the actual physical damage added. On top of that is still venom, +elemntal dmg from charms and other such things, so your actual damage can be quite a bit higher.

Also, when you say 1.2k kick dmg, is that the max dmg or the average? I do fine in duels but barely have 1.2k max dmg with about 1k average dmg. Is there something I can do to boost it even higher?

[lextalionis]

Almost all the gear I found myself including runes. You can't really build a viable pvp build for a whole lot less. Some gear like shakos and raven frost are more or less indispensible. I don't play that much and I managed to do it. Some savvy trading can go a long way...
That's about as cheap a build as I have ever seen for PvP. I'm sure someone can play with less, but... That's pretty darn cheap.

[DOC]

Yes wof and MB is a killer but it requires a lot of mana.

How do you beat a marrowwalk necro with bo ?
I beleive that if you DF in, you will get a few kicks in until the necro recovers and starts releasing BS point blank or when he gets out of any stunlock, so basically you take 3-4 bs and you died? Tell me how you defeat those necros.

First off, I find LS to be a much better stunner for caster's, its longer range is of great value to me when trying to hit them. LS + MB = a stunned caster.

2nd, I have one of these mageslayers (very similar gear, cept I use a jade, vergundus and rare myr greaves since im not ladder) and you want to know how to beat a Marrow bug necro? Or any necro for that matter, its quite simple, a sin is faster than a BS any day, you can out run their only attack. Their Bone armor goes down in a few kicks, you can block all their offense, so they resort to running. Stun them, DF in, 3.2K dmg and 100% open wounds with malice. Since they are stunned with the MB, Talon will take them down. They start to spam their BS again, you can outrun it. Windy's are the same thing. And this is far from fragile.

[Sephiroth[TR]]

before ppl saying this again
1 im not saying this guide sucks..
2 U wont kil a sorc with it if the sorc is good
3 a good necro can outtank ur kicks...

i got a kicker myself and i have dueled enough in pubie to know that a sorc with cta doesnt die or necros with cta dont die in 2 hits...

sure some does but those are just badly build sorc/necro When ur facing a 3k spear necro with up to 3k life... ul be having a hard time killing it... And any smart necro uses either spear or Teeth.. god they cant even keep up the mana cost from there spirits.. and teething u from 2 screens away with 1k teeth is some nasty dmg ... sure u got clawblock.. But u cant block all...

and no this guide doesnt suck but its just not the all mighty mage slayer every1 thinks it is !

[Weltkriegpally]

The same with hammerdins, how good are they when they cannot move or cast hammers?

well, lets look at it this way. Paladins have good fhr, and something else that makes them far more dangerous...charge. If you are even dueling against a decent one, then he will charge out (or you) and lay another hammerfield. But in your average public games, I can see your point.

--welt

[sk8brdnick]

Sep, I fail to see how you are qualified to comment on what this build can and can't do. Sorcs are actually and extremely easy match up as cold mastery can be easily negated in NM and your speed makes you very hard for fire and lightning sorc to hit. Simply hang back far enough way that you are hard to hit. You can't catch a teleporting sorc with DF but they have to slow to attack. That is when you DF in do your thing.

As for necros, you can't tank em so you DF in and go through a kick cycle, minion stacking and weapon block will help keep you unscathed briefly. Bone armor won't protect them from OW and venom. You only need to get them 2 or 3 times and then finish them with a mindblast when they are at 1 hp.

As for hammerdins, they are tough, very tough because of where dragon flight locates you. Hammerdins have limited range you can catch them with MB and WOF. Thankfully you can switch weapons while stunlocked which means that most hammerdins have crappy charge dmg. You have to be fast but you can drop them if you are good. Same as anyother high dmg caster. Try to get in, administer your poison and OW and then get out.

The only class I've found almost impossible to beat are decent windies that use wolves. The should be easy to beat because of the ease of stunlocking them except that they have so many minions stacked. It's hard to hit someone with 4 or 6 minions stacked over them. I recently incorporated blade shield into my build so perhaps this will help cut minion stacking issues.

I think a lot of people are being over critical of this build, I mean I accomplished what I set out to do. I've killed a ton of casters with godly gear with my crappy gear! Hooray for the underdog!! This is my first attempt at a kicker and I don't feel this build has been optimized yet by any means. With ladder season ending, I'm going to take my shadow killers and make a new kicker with better gear and attempt to further improve her. I'm going to break down and use CTA (sigh) but I want to see how far I can take the build. I've been working on calculations and I'm going to see what I can do to optimize the kicker build. Watch for more posts in the next couple of weeks.

[lextalionis]

I think a lot of people are being over critical of this build, I mean I accomplished what I set out to do. I've killed a ton of casters with godly gear with my crappy gear! Hooray for the underdog!! This is my first attempt at a kicker and I don't feel this build has been optimized yet by any means. With ladder season ending, I'm going to take my shadow killers and make a new kicker with better gear and attempt to further improve her. I'm going to break down and use CTA (sigh) but I want to see how far I can take the build. I've been working on calculations and I'm going to see what I can do to optimize the kicker build. Watch for more posts in the next couple of weeks.

I agree. Its a good build. Its fun. But it takes skill, finesse, and I think you are simplifying the matchups. Maybe you are very skilled and some of these matchups are easier for you than most. But I think average duelers will find this challenging but rewarding.

Besides its nice to see a melee build that can take down a caster of any type.

[sk8brdnick]

I've been playing for a long time (early days of classic), so perhaps I'm fairly skilled. I find that the class suites my style well. Javazons were my class of choice for pvp in 1.09 (back then physical dmg carried by lightning bolt was the main killer). The run and gun tactics are similar. This class is very challenging, but very rewarding. You will lose a lot at first while you get the knack for when to use talon, df, mb and wof.

I've done a lot of work trying to figure out gear and stats for my rebuild and I think I've got something solid though expensive. I'll post a new guide in the coming weeks. This class does great with crap gear, I'm interested to see how it fairs with godly gear.

[Dogbert]

a good necro can outtank ur kicks...

Hehe i think this individual forgot about Venom, Open Wounds and stun.
I don't think Bone armour can absorb those but maybe i'm wrong and it can.

I don't do pvp anymore but it's fun to see that the Assassin can be quite dangerous too.

[Dogbert]

I've been playing for a long time (early days of classic), so perhaps I'm fairly skilled. I find that the class suites my style well. Javazons were my class of choice for pvp in 1.09 (back then physical dmg carried by lightning bolt was the main killer). The run and gun tactics are similar. This class is very challenging, but very rewarding. You will lose a lot at first while you get the knack for when to use talon, df, mb and wof.

I've done a lot of work trying to figure out gear and stats for my rebuild and I think I've got something solid though expensive. I'll post a new guide in the coming weeks. This class does great with crap gear, I'm interested to see how it fairs with godly gear.

My question is: Does this build work well for PvM too?

[D1ce]

Sep, I fail to see how you are qualified to comment on what this build can and can't do. Sorcs are actually and extremely easy match up as cold mastery can be easily negated in NM and your speed makes you very hard for fire and lightning sorc to hit. Simply hang back far enough way that you are hard to hit. You can't catch a teleporting sorc with DF but they have to slow to attack. That is when you DF in do your thing.

As for necros, you can't tank em so you DF in and go through a kick cycle, minion stacking and weapon block will help keep you unscathed briefly. Bone armor won't protect them from OW and venom. You only need to get them 2 or 3 times and then finish them with a mindblast when they are at 1 hp.

As for hammerdins, they are tough, very tough because of where dragon flight locates you. Hammerdins have limited range you can catch them with MB and WOF. Thankfully you can switch weapons while stunlocked which means that most hammerdins have crappy charge dmg. You have to be fast but you can drop them if you are good. Same as anyother high dmg caster. Try to get in, administer your poison and OW and then get out.

The only class I've found almost impossible to beat are decent windies that use wolves. The should be easy to beat because of the ease of stunlocking them except that they have so many minions stacked. It's hard to hit someone with 4 or 6 minions stacked over them. I recently incorporated blade shield into my build so perhaps this will help cut minion stacking issues.

I think a lot of people are being over critical of this build, I mean I accomplished what I set out to do. I've killed a ton of casters with godly gear with my crappy gear! Hooray for the underdog!! This is my first attempt at a kicker and I don't feel this build has been optimized yet by any means. With ladder season ending, I'm going to take my shadow killers and make a new kicker with better gear and attempt to further improve her. I'm going to break down and use CTA (sigh) but I want to see how far I can take the build. I've been working on calculations and I'm going to see what I can do to optimize the kicker build. Watch for more posts in the next couple of weeks.

Sorcs: good strat, but if they sit still and spam the instant you df, they will most likely kill you in transit due to WB not working as soon as you land on top of them. this is esp true if they BLOCK. what do you do vs defensive duelers who hang back and try to snipe you?

Necros: you should mb+wof lock them first before you df in, if you dont its pretty much suicide against a decent nec, esp if they block. the important thing is to keep the lock, and make sure not to kick the clay goloem by accident (or get decreped) any slow will make you kicks much less effective and rob you of a quick kill.

Hammerdins: vs hammerdins keeping them under wof+mb lock is ABSOLUTELY essential. once you lock them, just charge in. Yes, i said that right just run in and start kicking them from a blind spot on the south side. keep the lock and keep kicking, but be careful of the knockback from talon. should they charge out, i would normally enigma teleport out of the deadly hammer circle, but if you dont have it try wwing out quick, giving you full block. if youre good enough and quick enough, vs chargers wof+mb lock them into a puddle in moor or a wall, best if you can attack them from the southern flank whole doing this. then simply kick away. they will have much less chance to charge away simply because youve cut away their angles and you keep kbing them back into the wall/puddle. should u kb them into a wall, they may not be able to spam hammers because it keeps hitting the wall :)

Wind Druids: if they stack, then mb them out of their minions with wof, eventually they will slide out, works like a charm including vs minion stacking revive necs. only thing is to keep them within range of df if you s\dont have enigma. once youve got them under lock, or when u df into them to intitate lock (almost alwaysw suicide w/o ww but o well), then make sure to kick out their oak sage. this in itself will reduce their life significantly and is much more efficient in taking them out then simply kicking out there life w/o killing the sage.

To Sephiroth: if the author outfits this build with enigma, cta, and a chaos, im sure he can take on almost any situation vs casters. i know i can.

[tremak]

I think I'll try my hand at one of these. I've been robbed of my favorite character being the underdog, since necros are stronger. Maybe its time to try something new.

[SpearULater]

I was thinking, maybe including Blade Shield would work well with a MageSlayer build. It would increased your dmg imput with the DF in, And then DT+BS is attacking the opponent?

[D1ce]

Yes Blade Shield works well with any melee Assassin, works even better with Chaos since the magic damage xfers over, used all the time by WW Sins. Check the FAQs on what effects transfer over to BS.

[chaos9]

I was thinking, maybe including Blade Shield would work well with a MageSlayer build. It would increased your dmg imput with the DF in, And then DT+BS is attacking the opponent?

Not a bad idea, but you have to decide if the investment of 3 points is worth it. Personally, I would rather use those points on mind blast, dragon flight, and/or fade. The potential advantage of blade shield to this build would be its chance to inflict some damage when dragon flight misses.

[chaos9]

Sorcs: good strat, but if they sit still and spam the instant you df, they will most likely kill you in transit due to WB not working as soon as you land on top of them. this is esp true if they BLOCK. what do you do vs defensive duelers who hang back and try to snipe you?

Two different issues here. First, lets take the worst case scenario - a sorc who stands still, has max block and 50% pdr, and simply spams blizzard on herself. In other words, we have a purely defensive sorc who does not attack but waits for you to come to her. This is the only type of sorc who ever gives me any difficulty. You will need some cold absorb, stacked cold resist, and fade. One tactic is getting her on the edge of your screen and throwing wof traps and mind blast the second before you dflight in. This may buy you just enough time to get the kill by distupting her casting cycle. Second, keep everything the same except you have a sorc who is rapidly teleporting. Here, you should be able to get the kill in the instant between her teleport and her cast. Of course, if she's smart, she will cast to the spot she is teleporting. Without writing a book about tactics, I can say that you should win more than you lose here.

The second issue you raise supposes a different sorc build entirely since sniping with blizzard (or any other cold spell) doesn't work too well. Let's imagine you have a max block, 50% pdr, fast cast, fireball sorc. Quite simply, this is where your bos really shines. Fireball is so easy to dodge that she shouldn't hit you much. If your resists will allow you to take 2 fireballs, you have any easy victory (although you will rarely take 2 hits unless the game lags).

In short, the ONLY way a sorc is going to be a challenge is when she has maxed cold mastery and you lack adequate stacked cold resists to survive 1-2 hits. I am NOT saying you need to be completely immune to cold (no point in dueling if you can't lose), but you must be able to take 1-2 hits.

Hammerdins: vs hammerdins keeping them under wof+mb lock is ABSOLUTELY essential. once you lock them, just charge in. Yes, i said that right just run in and start kicking them from a blind spot on the south side. keep the lock and keep kicking, but be careful of the knockback from talon. should they charge out, i would normally enigma teleport out of the deadly hammer circle, but if you dont have it try wwing out quick, giving you full block. if youre good enough and quick enough, vs chargers wof+mb lock them into a puddle in moor or a wall, best if you can attack them from the southern flank whole doing this. then simply kick away. they will have much less chance to charge away simply because youve cut away their angles and you keep kbing them back into the wall/puddle. should u kb them into a wall, they may not be able to spam hammers because it keeps hitting the wall :)

Hang on here. This is mageslayer, not one of those lame ww sins. I don't advocate enigma or chaos claws. If you want to use this garbage, you aren't playing a mageslayer.

Wind Druids: if they stack, then mb them out of their minions with wof, eventually they will slide out, works like a charm including vs minion stacking revive necs. only thing is to keep them within range of df if you s\dont have enigma. once youve got them under lock, or when u df into them to intitate lock (almost alwaysw suicide w/o ww but o well), then make sure to kick out their oak sage. this in itself will reduce their life significantly and is much more efficient in taking them out then simply kicking out there life w/o killing the sage.

Again, enigma and chaos claw are not used in this build at all. I'd be interested to hear from those who play true to the mageslayer about their experiences against wind druids.

[chaos9]

']
and no this guide doesnt suck but its just not the all mighty mage slayer every1 thinks it is !

Fascinating post. Who exactly thinks this guide produces an "all mighty mage slayer?" As the guide's author, I have certainly never claimed that it can beat all casters all the time. While I believe that this is one of the most effective builds against casters, it would be crazy to say it can easily defeat all casters.

Hammerdins are virtually impossible for the standard build (I am experimenting with variants now). Skilled bone necros or very skilled wind druids with godly gear can be very tough (fortunately, they are also very rare). Sorces are easy unless they have maxed cold mastery and you lack resists.

[D1ce]

I understand your disdain for cross-skills, but please do not just label it as "garbage." the use of these items enables a higher-level (or variety) of dueling on its own, not to say that your preference is in anyway inferior to mine or anyone else, it is choice. although the mageslayer comment i can understand because you are saying that the kicksin build is yours, mine is only a variant of it, the entire assassin class itself can be classified as "mageslayer" if anyone so wished, it is only a matter of preference. on a different note, vs sorcs that stand still and self-blizz, you can mb+wof them out of their blizz and df in and kick all while disrupting their casting cycle. finally, if youve read my comments and actually seen me duel, you would notice i use kicks much, much more often than ww. simply dismissing my tactics just because my build "does not stay true to a mageslayer" is too closeminded in my opinion. they are valid for a kicksin just as much as a ww sin, albeit the whole may not suit either entirely.

[diskoren]

well, lets look at it this way. Paladins have good fhr, and something else that makes them far more dangerous...charge. If you are even dueling against a decent one, then he will charge out (or you) and lay another hammerfield. But in your average public games, I can see your point.


Yes. I am aware of they charge. Strange, though, I've never dueled an hammerdin using charge when I stunlock him. Maybe I've just been unlucky.

Anyway, the strategy I'd use vs a hammerdin with charge is to try to stunlock them again after they escape from the first lock. But I think i should try that before saying it's a winning strategy.

[chaos9]

I understand your disdain for cross-skills, but please do not just label it as "garbage." the use of these items enables a higher-level (or variety) of dueling on its own, not to say that your preference is in anyway inferior to mine or anyone else, it is choice. although the mageslayer comment i can understand because you are saying that the kicksin build is yours, mine is only a variant of it, the entire assassin class itself can be classified as "mageslayer" if anyone so wished, it is only a matter of preference. on a different note, vs sorcs that stand still and self-blizz, you can mb+wof them out of their blizz and df in and kick all while disrupting their casting cycle. finally, if youve read my comments and actually seen me duel, you would notice i use kicks much, much more often than ww. simply dismissing my tactics just because my build "does not stay true to a mageslayer" is too closeminded in my opinion. they are valid for a kicksin just as much as a ww sin, albeit the whole may not suit either entirely.

You are correct to call me on my harsh words for users of cross-skills and to point out that this is simply a preference. I do welcome multiple sin variants. After all, my initial guide was little more than a variant of the standard kicksin build. At the same time, I hope to keep enigma and the chaos claw distinct from this build to prevent confusion.

[D1ce]

You are correct to call me on my harsh words for users of cross-skills and to point out that this is simply a preference. I do welcome multiple sin variants. After all, my initial guide was little more than a variant of the standard kicksin build. At the same time, I hope to keep enigma and the chaos claw distinct from this build to prevent confusion.

Understood, Ill try to mention that my tactics and/or build is not the same as yours from now on.

[Sephiroth[TR]]

Fascinating post. Who exactly thinks this guide produces an "all mighty mage slayer?" As the guide's author, I have certainly never claimed that it can beat all casters all the time. While I believe that this is one of the most effective builds against casters, it would be crazy to say it can easily defeat all casters.

i think this is hardly the most effective build vs caster but it would be the ceapest to make. And from the looks of the replies ppl said in here, they do give me a feeling they think the mageslayers are so great.( to great)

imo windy/smiter/trapper are better than a kicksin..the hel 6k dmg GA zons can even do better.
And depending on the amount of res/absorb u stack its posible to beat all casters...

[Scarpachi]

I didn't think the guide was all that great. But the idea behind it was fresh. I was curious about how well a kicksin would fare. It appears the sin fares good enough for me to give this a try.

Very vesatile, but thats what a assassin is all about, versatility. Glad to see the guide is working out.

[Speederländer]

']And depending on the amount of res/absorb u stack its posible to beat all casters...

Not necro casters.

[soulesschild]

Not necro casters.

Not to be rude or anything, I too have built one of these, but a good tele necro will never, ever die to a kicker or WW-sin for that matter. I have never lost or found any WWsin/Kicker that was able to get close to killing me. D1Ce, I do believe you dueled using you WWsin and I cannot remember if you killed me or not, so forgive me if you did :). A good tele necro will never get touched by an assassin under any circumstance, unless they are willing to tank you which is quite possible. Marrow'ed Bone Armor absorbs 1k+ of damage, adding in 50% damage reduce, you're venom wont do much if they have max resists and they will kill you before OW is able to fully kill them. Then again I haven't met many kickers, though there are plenty of WWsins, if anyone is up to a challenge agaisnt me with a kicker/WWsin on west Nonladder, feel free to message me *souless-pvp

Anyway, my own experience with these is that, agaisnt sorcs, fade is the skill to use, you have to have above 75 res to tank and hopefully win agaisnt any sorc, maybe some absorb too. Bone necros can be tough, but most are just pubby newbs with enigma, hoto,etc and aren't much of a challenge, but if you ever meet a good one, chances are, you are going to get very frustrated that either you can't hit them, or they can just tank you and kill you with 6k+ bone spirit/spear, even though most good necs rely on spear most of the time. Teeth is also a killer if you're running around them in circles. And don't even think about trying to stun, most run at 56 or even 86 FHR, which lets them get out of a stunlock easily.

Anyways, great guide chaos, interesting read, helped me develop my own assassin skills, and my necromancer's counter to them ;) Cheers! :drink:

[Speederländer]

Not to be rude or anything, I too have built one of these, but a good tele necro will never, ever die to a kicker or WW-sin for that matter. I have never lost or found any WWsin/Kicker that was able to get close to killing me. D1Ce, I do believe you dueled using you WWsin and I cannot remember if you killed me or not, so forgive me if you did :). A good tele necro will never get touched by an assassin under any circumstance, unless they are willing to tank you which is quite possible. Marrow'ed Bone Armor absorbs 1k+ of damage, adding in 50% damage reduce, you're venom wont do much if they have max resists and they will kill you before OW is able to fully kill them. Then again I haven't met many kickers, though there are plenty of WWsins, if anyone is up to a challenge agaisnt me with a kicker/WWsin on west Nonladder, feel free to message me *souless-pvp

Anyway, my own experience with these is that, agaisnt sorcs, fade is the skill to use, you have to have above 75 res to tank and hopefully win agaisnt any sorc, maybe some absorb too. Bone necros can be tough, but most are just pubby newbs with enigma, hoto,etc and aren't much of a challenge, but if you ever meet a good one, chances are, you are going to get very frustrated that either you can't hit them, or they can just tank you and kill you with 6k+ bone spirit/spear, even though most good necs rely on spear most of the time. Teeth is also a killer if you're running around them in circles. And don't even think about trying to stun, most run at 56 or even 86 FHR, which lets them get out of a stunlock easily.

Anyways, great guide chaos, interesting read, helped me develop my own assassin skills, and my necromancer's counter to them ;) Cheers! :drink:

Was that responding to me? You quoted me where I was stating that you CANNOT stack res against necros. I was correcting an earlier comment by another person. I assume you were responding to someone else because it doesn't make any sense in response to me.


As to your comment:
--------
A good tele necro will never get touched by an assassin under any circumstance
--------
That of course doesn't apply to a good trapper which will give any good telenecro a run for its money.

[soulesschild]

ah yes, i forgot about the auto quote thing o.O

Yes I was implying a melee sin lol, havent met many good trappers either, most are just townguarding noobs that I just slap on res and tank and laugh, or their noobs like Ai Clan that have autoaim etc etc etc, and if u absorb them, they bring in their whole clan, so whats the point? lol

[Speederländer]

ah yes, i forgot about the auto quote thing o.O

Yes I was implying a melee sin lol, havent met many good trappers either, most are just townguarding noobs that I just slap on res and tank and laugh, or their noobs like Ai Clan that have autoaim etc etc etc, and if u absorb them, they bring in their whole clan, so whats the point? lol

If you play on the ladder, Uswest, message me at *Puritan

I promise you it won't be so cut and dried.

[chaos9]

']i think this is hardly the most effective build vs caster but it would be the ceapest to make. And from the looks of the replies ppl said in here, they do give me a feeling they think the mageslayers are so great.( to great)

imo windy/smiter/trapper are better than a kicksin..the hel 6k dmg GA zons can even do better.
And depending on the amount of res/absorb u stack its posible to beat all casters...

This build has three main strengths. First, weapon block will let you block caster attacks that other classes cannot block. Second, dflight plus open wounds gives you a huge advantage over most other anti-caster builds in reaching your target quickly and safely. Third, unlike many other builds, you can start dueling and be very effective at fairly early (i.e., you don't have to wait until level 60+).

I am not sure how wind druids or smiters are supposed to reach casters, and I have never seen a smiter who could consistently beat even a weak bone necro. On the other hand, you are certainly right that trappers and well build zons can be effective caster killers.

[chaos9]

Not to be rude or anything, I too have built one of these, but a good tele necro will never, ever die to a kicker or WW-sin for that matter. I have never lost or found any WWsin/Kicker that was able to get close to killing me.

Souless, you are probably right that a well built, well equipped necro wearing enigma and played skillfully will rarely lose to a mageslayer (or any other character for that matter), although "never" might be a bit strong. One of the limitations of the mageslayer is that the build peaks relatively early while most others continue to get much stronger. In other words, the difference between a level 60 bone necro and a level 75 bone necro is MUCH more significant that between a level 60 mageslayer and a level 75 mageslayer. When I was around level 50, I was consistently beating bone necros, but as I continued to level, they became harder and harder. Fortunately, as you pointed out, most of them don't know how to play their necros very well (unlike you). The better the necro, the more I try hit-and-run tactics. This gives open wounds time to work and sometimes keeps me alive long enough to make it interesting. Still, I am surprised by the number of necros who will try to tank me without even casting bone wall/prison.

Anyway, my own experience with these is that, agaisnt sorcs, fade is the skill to use, you have to have above 75 res to tank and hopefully win agaisnt any sorc, maybe some absorb too.

I'd say that this depends entirely on what type of sorc we are talking about. I have done extremely well against fire sorces with 75 fire resist, no absorb, and no fade. With BoS, I can avoid their fireballs easily until I am ready to come in for the kill. However, with a decent cold sorc, fade may be needed and stacked cold resists are critical to let you survive more than 1 hit.

Anyways, great guide chaos, interesting read, helped me develop my own assassin skills, and my necromancer's counter to them ;) Cheers! :drink:

Thanks Souless. I am a big fan of your bone necro guide, so your approval means a lot.

[Sephiroth[TR]]

uhm with enigma all char can get to the sorc.. only advantage i see a assa has is weapon block and venom.. any char can get the OW amounth a assa has...

And altough they do better on low lv.. but how many duel on lv 50 or so.. most proly busy with baaling so they can wear there enigma..

And i have yet to see a kicksin that coud beat my FB sorc... they rarly see me on screen... so they cant df me.. im ranged there melee.. il make sure there dead before they get close to me. Dueled several Nokazan dwarfstar lamers and even with that, there just delaying there death..

and some things make me verry sad seeing my own Kicksin killing herself on telekenesis sorc Shiver armor also makes me give up on assa.. 1.8k life and max res in hel.. and i still manage to get kild by shiver armor just kicking the sorc... without her attacking me.. i died before the sorc died.. Imagine how fast i die if she orbed me :/

And no i doubt it was my assa that sucked seeing i even got max res in hel and it happend in normal... and 1.8k life without bo should be enough... Altough my venom isnt insane about 800 and i didnt went OW laming... but kicking myself to death on a sorc that doesnt do anything but stand there..... thats just embaresing..

[Speederländer]

This build has three main strengths. First, weapon block will let you block caster attacks that other classes cannot block. Second, dflight plus open wounds gives you a huge advantage over most other anti-caster builds in reaching your target quickly and safely. Third, unlike many other builds, you can start dueling and be very effective at fairly early (i.e., you don't have to wait until level 60+).

I am not sure how wind druids or smiters are supposed to reach casters, and I have never seen a smiter who could consistently beat even a weak bone necro. On the other hand, you are certainly right that trappers and well build zons can be effective caster killers.

Open wounds is of limited effectiveness vs. high life hard hitting pvp'ers. If you rely on it for anything more than a "nice to have" it won't serve you well.

DF is not an advantage and isn't all that safe. It misfires constantly. One misfire and you are standing still a split second longer than you should and take 2 or 3 BS or FB.

It appears weapon block is somewhat buggy when you move. Many people in this forum report that it drops to zero when you move at all, though not when actually whirlwinding. This is a big strike against WB if it is as it appears.

Smiters get to fast casters via charge or vigor/charge desync.

[Endermx]

I have a kicker sin and I wish to practice on casters/zons on US East NL. My acct is *wargasmic2

I promise you it will be fun and challenging.

Cheers.

[reno666]

Open wounds is of limited effectiveness vs. high life hard hitting pvp'ers. If you rely on it for anything more than a "nice to have" it won't serve you well.

Agree. Too many think this is what kills but you'd have to get to 90 to even maximize this mod. And usually, while it slowly works on opponent, you're already dead.

DF is not an advantage and isn't all that safe. It misfires constantly. One misfire and you are standing still a split second longer than you should and take 2 or 3 BS or FB.

Again I agree. But not for exactly that reason. DF is interruptible and when you're blocking or in hit-recovery, you're usually dead. The range has been shortened and the auto-aim is just as wonky as WB, maybe cuz of desync.

[Endermx]

In defense of the kicker, everything about the build has to do with the TIMING of attacks. You can't just stand there like a caster and tele and spam spells. It's not just point/click like a pure melee either. I'm not saying the build is invincible and will kill all classes/styles of characters, but that if well played, the kicker can be VERY viable against casters. In 1v1 pvp, I might lose the first few rounds, but I eventually learn the play style of my adversary and I become better and better in defeating my opponent, whatever class he/she maybe. In the end, it's not the kicker that is weak, it's the player's method of dueling. So play smart and stop blaming your sin.

[Sephiroth[TR]]

u think u can kill a sorc with a kicker if it spams 20k firebals from 2 screens away ?
as soon as u run close i tele back a bit again.. meaning ul never get a change to DF me.. ofcourse its also a matter of patience.. but my mana recharge from empty to ful in about 15 second and it goes up even when i tele.. so i wont have to worry about that and keep spamming FB..

yea im cheap 2 screens away and spam fb i know...than again fb sorc are cheap anyway...prety skilless to play to :D

And desyning palas are far more dangerous yea.. since i never know were they really are.. wich is hard for me cos sometime when i think its safe to spam hes bashing me with his shield..

[Endermx]

do you have a US East NL account? I'm always looking for new people to duel.

I've beaten tele fire sorcs before, and I'm sure it's not the first time someone has beaten tele fb sorcs either. If they're good, it just takes alot of patience. If they suck, it will be over very soon. Like I said, I only wait for the perfect moment. . .a window of opportunity. That opportunity WILL present itself. . .because people will eventually make a mistake. That mistake I will exploit and then gg.

[Sephiroth[TR]]

nope im on europe.. but if u know how to work with hero editor and can make me items for my sorc il gladly duel u...
Altough i do need some explaination how the open dueling all works..

And seeing ur a patience person... But running around and dodging fb wont get u anywere :P And i can afford to make mistakes with my sorc since i got block.. Even if i get hit by a malice claw u only got a 25% change to hit me.. And i do get away after it and continue my fb spamming with 1 or full life... it doesnt matter verry much actually..

[D1ce]

Not to be rude or anything, I too have built one of these, but a good tele necro will never, ever die to a kicker or WW-sin for that matter. I have never lost or found any WWsin/Kicker that was able to get close to killing me. D1Ce, I do believe you dueled using you WWsin and I cannot remember if you killed me or not, so forgive me if you did :). A good tele necro will never get touched by an assassin under any circumstance, unless they are willing to tank you which is quite possible. Marrow'ed Bone Armor absorbs 1k+ of damage, adding in 50% damage reduce, you're venom wont do much if they have max resists and they will kill you before OW is able to fully kill them. Then again I haven't met many kickers, though there are plenty of WWsins, if anyone is up to a challenge agaisnt me with a kicker/WWsin on west Nonladder, feel free to message me *souless-pvp

Anyway, my own experience with these is that, agaisnt sorcs, fade is the skill to use, you have to have above 75 res to tank and hopefully win agaisnt any sorc, maybe some absorb too. Bone necros can be tough, but most are just pubby newbs with enigma, hoto,etc and aren't much of a challenge, but if you ever meet a good one, chances are, you are going to get very frustrated that either you can't hit them, or they can just tank you and kill you with 6k+ bone spirit/spear, even though most good necs rely on spear most of the time. Teeth is also a killer if you're running around them in circles. And don't even think about trying to stun, most run at 56 or even 86 FHR, which lets them get out of a stunlock easily.

Anyways, great guide chaos, interesting read, helped me develop my own assassin skills, and my necromancer's counter to them ;) Cheers! :drink:

Yes we had some good duels souless :) I did kill you once, when you had max FCR [125%+], but no block, you went down pretty fast compared to the other duels iirc. The rest were all/mostly close, some with you winning with 1 hp iirc again. Personally I didn't have an overly difficult time landing a hit on you considering the lag we both went through. I'll be open for some more open dueling with you if we can find someone to host our games
-D1ce