Warcrys: when to keep your mouth shut

[xberto]

I don't think I've ever read a barb guide that didn't advise maxing BO even at the sake of not maximizing synergies for primary attack. Being a player that usually plays in multi player games, I personally focus on maxing my synergies and let some other barb bark out all the BOs. I get better damage, something new to add to the party (like a maxed shout with my zerk barb), and don't have to get into a barking match with other barbs on the baal runs. Just an observation......

[GenXCub]

You're absolutely correct, but one of the inherent properties of a build guide is to tell someone how to make a character that can venture through the game under any circumstance. If you know you'll always be playing with other barbs (and you won't mind having to explain to all the little people who spam BO PLZ!), then it would be a good idea to skip it.

However, get caught in a solo game, and things could be tough. Hope you don't play hardcore.

[xberto]

I still manage to get a few points into BO and along with equipment skill bonus's I get to around 10 which benifits me greatly when I solo. I would never suggest to completely ingore BO. Thx

[chinaman1472]

Yea, but what happens when you're the only barb? You suffer a major loss.
9 BO vs. 30+ BO is a major gap in life.

Then again, a large portion of Barbs I see are leechers anyway (unless they're duelers).... or just a Barb who just Baal Runs all day.

[Omikron8]

Let's see

Max battle orders to survive solo hell

OR

Play in party with these enlightning minds:

"GIBZ ITAMZ?"
"U R SUXXORRZZZ"
"PKZ UZ NOOBLARZ"
"TPTPTPTPTPTPTPTPTP"
etc.

No think i will take the maxed battle orders thank you

[Superhal]

at the lower levels, you see more barbs, but at the higher levels, you don't. there were very few hell games with my 3X 88 barbs where i had to compete with other barbs. i had more trouble with people with cta's. sooner or later you'll be in games with no barbs. with my 92 sorc, who has probably done 100X as many hell runs as my 3 barbs combined, i'd say around 75% of them didn't have a barb at all.

[JohnofTesh]

I posted a berserker guide that does not use maximum battle orders. Instead you max all of your berserk synergies and put only 1 point into battle orders ---plus to skill items bump it up to level 10 and with 500 points into viitality and with some vita charms my life is at 3700+ at lvl 93. I am not a favorite with the party crowd, but either someone else casts the battle orders (which will generally bump me up to 5k life) or I am fine with what I bring to the table and if they don't like mine I don't give it to them.

http://forums.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=170153&highlight=singer

I would agree with you that almost everyone automatically tells you to "max battle orders dude", and while that is good advice most of the time it isn't all the time.

[Superhal]

my rule of thumb is that bo is necessary only if you are building a tank or melee'r, which is like 90% of all barb builds. a thrower or bowbarian doesn't need it. (although with a bowbarian, wth are you are going to use skillpoints for? :)) my beta no bo thrower did fine.

i also think max bo is necessary if you are going to use a merc.

another option is to only put 1 pt into it, and get additional points from +skills. i figure +12-14 from switch weps + normal eq is minimum. conversely though, you can have 32-34 bo this way. :)

[Kirsty]

A lot of other melee classes don't need 3000 life to make it through hell, for example paladins, MA assassins, javazons/spearazons, daggermancers and the many less conventional builds. Why should barbarians really need the 3000 life? I find that except for pvp, base BO or even no BO will do just fine.

[mstrnicegui]

All the other classes have their skills to make up for the lack of bo. A paladin's redemption skill or meditation/prayer is a good example of making up for a barb's bo. A sorceress has frozen armor, but she's mostly ranged, so bo isn't a huge deal unless she's gonna go melee. A druid has oak sage. The other melee classes all have some way of making up for not having bo, that's the way the game was designed.

[Kirsty]

Barbarians have plenty of tactics that allow them not to use BO or only a level 1 BO.

- They can have plenty of defense in the sense of iron skin, shout and maybe a concentration combination
- They have natural resistance to counter elemental damage
- They have howl and grim ward to scare off monsters
- Battlecry incapacitates monsters quite well making it easier for barbarians to pick them off.
- Warcry and Stun itself stun quite well (warcry mentioned in case of level 1 BO)
- Bash can knock monsters out of the way
- They have increased speed, leap skills, whirlwind and even frenzy should they need to get out of problems fast
- Life potions quickly regenerate their life pool, something not as effectively observed for other classes
- They get 4 life per vitality and their skills increase physical damage by large enough portions making leeching quite effective

Tell me again why barbarians should actually need around 3000 life? I generally play with much less than half that amount with no problems whatsoever. I guess that if you use a kamikaze playing style without any tactics at all, then you might need that much but in general it's a waste for pvm to get that much.

[Superhal]

A lot of other melee classes don't need 3000 life to make it through hell, for example paladins, MA assassins, javazons/spearazons, daggermancers and the many less conventional builds. Why should barbarians really need the 3000 life? I find that except for pvp, base BO or even no BO will do just fine.

i usually use bo to get to 1500 life as i prefer titan base-vit builds. i've never had a char with over 2400.

i think barbs need to use bo vs other melee classes because the eq reqs are higher (not as true in .10, but somewhat.) col blades required 189 str, 120-200 (with block) dex back in the day, which is like 100-200 pts more than other builds who could put those points into vit.

but, for non-barb builds, bo is extremely popular. in 90up baalruns, about 1/2 the players have a CtA.

sure, it's a player's preference, but there's no denying it helps no matter what build, class or char you have.

[Vakarrona]

Well anyone can build his/her character the way he/she likes. In a party you just need to use the things you have, don't need to explain to others why having or not BO or any other skill.

I allways say this: it's sad to see a baal run and everyone quits because of:
- a) no sorc to tele
- b) no barb to BO sorc
- c) no barb + sorc
- d) sorc don't use map hack so she can see the way down

Just learn to build a tactic whith the party you have, and most important, learn to use your character well in a party (help and get helped).

Play legit, have fun.

[Fire_Dragon]

I usually PvM lvl w/ lvl 39 or 40 bo... also it helps if u just baal w/ friends (who r also high lvls, which I consider to be 89 and up). That way u know who has the best and there no "barking" matches... But on the whole, I'm an advocate for maxing bo. I like 2 know that If I ever get caught alone I can hold my own (ppl don't realize how fast 5k life can drain if u run into a pack of souls and have low light res, get mobbed by vipers or dolls etc.).

[chinaman1472]

But the advantage of a Barb is BO, period. No other class can double their life AND make it stay for 300+ seconds.

- They can have plenty of defense in the sense of iron skin, shout and maybe a concentration combination
- They have natural resistance to counter elemental damage
- They have howl and grim ward to scare off monsters
- Battlecry incapacitates monsters quite well making it easier for barbarians to pick them off.
- Warcry and Stun itself stun quite well (warcry mentioned in case of level 1 BO)
- Bash can knock monsters out of the way
- They have increased speed, leap skills, whirlwind and even frenzy should they need to get out of problems fast
- Life potions quickly regenerate their life pool, something not as effectively observed for other classes
- They get 4 life per vitality and their skills increase physical damage by large enough portions making leeching quite effective


- Many barbs end up maxing shout anyway, but not all barbs are Conc barbs either. Unless you're soloing, having high def will rarely be better than having double life.
- Natural resistance has diminishing returns.
- Howl and Grim work, but when you're getting mobbed (which are in times of need), the cast is so slow you won't be able to get it off.
- Same with War Cry, and stun is only a single attack for only 2 seconds, pales in comparison to other stun lengths such as Bear Druids where are 5+ seconds.
- Leap doesn't work 100%. Not every build uses Leap or WW or Frenzy. Increased Speed is usually a 1 point wonder, but would runnign 80% faster be better than 100% more life?
- You can only hold so many potions.
- 4 Life per vit is their ONLY advantage, but if built right, pales in comparison with Druids. I've seen WereDruids hit 5k Life WITHOUT oak. I rarely hit 5k Life with Barbs WITH lvl 30+ BO on.

There are always alternatives... but really, which is overall better?

[Kirsty]

- If you know when to walk and when to run then a low defense of 5000 (which is about the lowest amount for most standard barbarians) can make a big difference against most melee foes. Only casters will be annoying but that's why you have natural resistance.
- Natural resistance has its diminishing returns, but the offset is good enough to get you into the positive values counting some standard resistance bonus from gear. Elemental damage doesn't give you much problems after that.
- Barbarians have a base casting speed of 13 frames which is fast enough to get a howl, warcry or a grim ward off. If needed simply retry whilst drinking a healing potion. A level 1 grim ward lasts very long as well so using it defensively you can avoid getting mobbed altogether.
- Stun can stun for a much longer period than 2 seconds, up to 10 seconds actually, although that does require some synergy and skillpoint allocation. Warcry does indeed last for a very short time period but it will give you enough time to get out of there, as will stun.
- Leap works fine. not every build may have it... not every build may have some of the other ideas listed for that matter, but then you have warcries to get you safety.
- Increased speed provides enough of an offset to outrun most monsters unless they are naturally fast and additionally fast enchanted. It really doesn't need more than 1 point.
- You can actually pick up potions and use find potion skill if needed. If you burn up over 8 potions when you get surrounded then there is definately something wrong with your playing tactics or your barbarian setup.
- Druids can do fine with only 1000 life as well. They don't need Lycanthropy or Oak Sage to get around, it's just that most people pick it.