Angelic stuff

[xtc_sazabi]

Fire_Dragon mentioned that Angelic ammy and rings are a bad idea. I would like to know more about the defects of those items, because most people i know use them. thanks in advance

[Crazy Runner Guy]

If you need the AR (especially for PvP), they are an excellent choice. If not, then they are taking up space (two or three slots) that could be put to use in other areas.

crg

[Fire_Dragon]

theres a funky bug w/ ww and angelic... i might explain l8r. Just go w/ highlords and raven frosts, u'll b fine.

[xtc_sazabi]

interesting, thank you for informing us Fire_Dragon, i will do some experimenting to help you verify that angelics are less effective than highlords/ravenfrosts.

[fallen angel of satan]

Ive been using anglic set for a whil;e on ww barb and havent noticed any bugs with them, so can you be more specific? With angelic I can hit high def chars with ease, with dual ravens i struggle abit. The main problem I have found with dual anglic rings is that you loose out on other stats like cannot be frozen.

[doughboy]

i notice a big difference when i use angelic. i can hit more often for sure.

please be more specific about this bug.

[memememe173]

It would be great to explain this bug fire, with the amout of people using//recommending Angelics...

[Fire_Dragon]

Ok, I'll do my best... First off I'm not entirely sure how it works and it is STRICTLY ww vs ww bug. If ur pure melee (like conc, bash, zerk etc angelic setup is not bugged). However for ww barbs the extra 12k+ ar from them doesnt matter much... I used the angelic setup for awhile, but 2 ravens seems to hit exactly or even MORE than angelic does in PvP. I can run low def against other ww barbs and not take many hits even though they wear angelic setup. Also highlords makes ur dmg very painful to anyone (highly recommend). I'm still running tests myself, but there is something wrong w/ ww vs ww using angelic... I have yet to figure out wut it is, but it's there. Occasionally if I'm dueling a 50k+ def conc barb I'll put on angelic ammy and 1x angelic ring (but notice this is not ww vs ww anymore, it is ww vs melee). There may be something involving def as well... I can run 17-20k def (very low, I used to run 37k def) and I'll destroy ppl who use 2x angelic ring setup. I'm sry I cannot at this time b more specific... it's there, run ur own tests, u'll c it.

[Kirsty]

It could just be chance or blocking related. Blocking is checked before attack rating/defense rating so that could be it. According to Ruvanal blocking is still active during whirlwind. Here is the quote from this topic (http://forums.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=187904), which seems very interesting:

"Whirlwind is an attack and the character is in attack state when doing it. The skill itself causes the character to move about the map as part of the way it works. The character is not in one of the walk or run states when using this skill in spite of what it may appear to you to look like. Since the skill itself does nothing to change the defense or blocking chances, they should be the same as when you are standing still."

[memememe173]

so you could just have had a string of bad luck

[jjashik]

fire: after reading about your 2 ravens and highlords. i tested it out yesterday against barbs ranging 30k-36k def all of them bvb ww barbs. the 2 ravens didn't really do anything for me. literally nothing. with the rings and ammy i wasn't able to hit squat. angelics is IMO definitely WAY better. when i used ravens/highlords i had around 16800 ar and with that much ar, hittin a barb with over 30k def is nearly impossible.

[Fire_Dragon]

fire: after reading about your 2 ravens and highlords. i tested it out yesterday against barbs ranging 30k-36k def all of them bvb ww barbs. the 2 ravens didn't really do anything for me. literally nothing. with the rings and ammy i wasn't able to hit squat. angelics is IMO definitely WAY better. when i used ravens/highlords i had around 16800 ar and with that much ar, hittin a barb with over 30k def is nearly impossible.
well i dunno wut 2 tell u... maybe I'm the luckiest barb on bnet :lol: . Also knowing HOW to ww plays a huge role in creating this buggy ww. Me and several other east barbs r currently using the dual raven/highlord combo 2 amazing effect. Every angelic user thus far has fallen to me, and only others using ravens and highlord have success against me... I'll keep running tests. Something is buggy about ww, but I can't pin down how/why it happens. Also try running lower def on urself (I do low def now). It may b a combination.

[Ironcarrot]

Is the alternitive the angelic combo particularly expensive

[jjashik]

well i dunno wut 2 tell u... maybe I'm the luckiest barb on bnet :lol: . Also knowing HOW to ww plays a huge role in creating this buggy ww. Me and several other east barbs r currently using the dual raven/highlord combo 2 amazing effect. Every angelic user thus far has fallen to me, and only others using ravens and highlord have success against me... I'll keep running tests. Something is buggy about ww, but I can't pin down how/why it happens. Also try running lower def on urself (I do low def now). It may b a combination.

hrmm... might be not sure. i'm gonna have to try it out with a low def barb. i've noticed something like what you pointed out with the rings and ammy but with weapon and armor. with the rings/ammy its an ar sorta bug and with what i noticed its a def related bug. a few barbs that i duel with most of the time have noticed it and tested it but not thoroughly(sp?). i'll test out the rings and ammy on lower def barb along with the bug that my friends and i have noticed. i'll post about it tomorrow or something.

[fallen angel of satan]

Ime intrged now, if I still had my ww barb I would go away and test like mad lol, but since my acc was hacked ive only made throwers, if anyone finds out if this is true or not then do post.

When I did ww duel I remember it was a huge improvement on 1 raven and highlords, and Ime not just talking hit twice as often I mean at least 10 times more with dual anglic ring combo, but this is relying on memory and I cant pretend to be an expert on d2s bugs lol :\

[doughboy]

well, i do know this...

when 2 ww duelers go at it, they won't hit each other if they're both wwing. that's why all ww vs ww duelers try to anticipate where the other wwer will stop and try to attack at that point

maybe that's what you're experiencing? :scratch:

[Fire_Dragon]

well, i do know this...

when 2 ww duelers go at it, they won't hit each other if they're both wwing. that's why all ww vs ww duelers try to anticipate where the other wwer will stop and try to attack at that point

maybe that's what you're experiencing? :scratch:
umm.... that's not how ww works buddy... When 2 barbs WW at each other they DO hit one another in mid ww. I know wut ur saying though about anticipating. Just keep in mind though that in the upper non pub dueling circles we don't do as much anticipating, we just ww right at each other (kinda like knights w/ lances who charge, lance, then turnabout and do it all over again). The reason for this is that anyone can learn to antcipate where a ww will go (minus short WW's :lol: ) so it's almost considered BM. This tactic is known as WW "dodging" and IS conisdered BM. Not because it gives anyone an unfair advantage (I can dodge like a mofo if I feel like it), but because if everyone "dodges" then BvB duels would take Forever to finish. It's considered honorable to just run head to head, the idea being that the better built barb will win (so u better have a better build :uhhuh: ). Basically it's a contest for pride, who can build the best baba.

As for the buggy AR, I'm more and more beginning to suspect that it has something to do w/ def. For all of u testing try running 15-17k def (yes, hella low I know...) with angelic then w/ raven/highlord and post wut results u get. Also keep in mind that differences in barbs "might" also be a factor. Me and other top barbs have noticed that most pubby barbs with duel angelic can't touch us period. Also I had a friend (the current #1 barb on east) run highlord/raven against me with I believe roughly 17k def. I ran with 41k def (most ever on a WW barb I believe on nL :lol: , RECORD?!). He butchered my barb, and before anyone asks, we r stictly legit, no hacked items etc (unless u want to count 3/20/20's but those r pretty standard for duels these days). Keep experimenting...

[jjashik]

As for the buggy AR, I'm more and more beginning to suspect that it has something to do w/ def. For all of u testing try running 15-17k def (yes, hella low I know...) with angelic then w/ raven/highlord and post wut results u get. Also keep in mind that differences in barbs "might" also be a factor. Me and other top barbs have noticed that most pubby barbs with duel angelic can't touch us period. Also I had a friend (the current #1 barb on east) run highlord/raven against me with I believe roughly 17k def. I ran with 41k def (most ever on a WW barb I believe on nL :lol: , RECORD?!). He butchered my barb, and before anyone asks, we r stictly legit, no hacked items etc (unless u want to count 3/20/20's but those r pretty standard for duels these days). Keep experimenting...

i was just about to post that i the ravens and highlords was still ****ty with a low def barb. then i read low as in 15-17k def and i used a 23k def barb. i will try it again with a barb with that much def if i can find one. the thing that gets me is that i have dueled barbs with the 2 ravens/highlords and i would beat them with angelics. but i must do further testing with even lower def now.
with the bug that my friends and i noticed, i didn't have time to test that yesterday. so i'll post about it later

[fallen angel of satan]

nice 41k defence hehe, I only had 37k and it kept anoying me that I had to remake stone, so I switched down to 28k with eth arky instead hehe. I only ever came against a barb that could beat me in pubby games, even then it was about 50/50 wins and he used dual anglec, any barb ive seen using ravens has struggled to hit me, big time, ie I could stand there doing nothing for ages. As I said earlier I dont have a ww barb any more, this was early 1.10.

The fact that they had no chance could be because they dont know what they are doing, so thuis evidance is not conclusive, but one thing is sure is that anglic combo is better than raven/hoghlords for my barb at 28k def.

[jjashik]

nice 41k defence hehe, I only had 37k and it kept anoying me that I had to remake stone, so I switched down to 28k with eth arky instead hehe. I only ever came against a barb that could beat me in pubby games, even then it was about 50/50 wins and he used dual anglec, any barb ive seen using ravens has struggled to hit me, big time, ie I could stand there doing nothing for ages. As I said earlier I dont have a ww barb any more, this was early 1.10.

The fact that they had no chance could be because they dont know what they are doing, so thuis evidance is not conclusive, but one thing is sure is that anglic combo is better than raven/hoghlords for my barb at 28k def.

the same thing happens to my barb. when i duel a 2 raven/highlords ww bvb barb, they really can't hit me at all. i just end up winning all the duels. but i have noticed some buggy things with barbs and their eq setup. just gotta test them out.

[fallen angel of satan]

nice 41k defence hehe, I only had 37k and it kept anoying me that I had to remake stone, so I switched down to 28k with eth arky instead hehe. I only ever came against a barb that could beat me in pubby games, even then it was about 50/50 wins and he used dual anglec, any barb ive seen using ravens has struggled to hit me, big time, ie I could stand there doing nothing for ages. As I said earlier I dont have a ww barb any more, this was early 1.10.

The fact that they had no chance could be because they dont know what they are doing, so thuis evidance is not conclusive, but one thing is sure is that anglic combo is better than raven/hoghlords for my barb at 28k def.

[Fire_Dragon]

Hmm... I'm still poking around. Maybe their is something w/ equip setup? This is annoying the hell outta me... there's a bug and I can't figure out exactly how it works. All I know is my barb kills everything! Go figure... And btw 2 whoever said they can stand there w/ 37k def and not get hit... like I said the bug seems to occur when BOTH barbs are in mid ww... hope that helps some.

[fallen angel of satan]

kk, and ime sorry about the double post, I hadnt even realized id done it, till Ive glanced over this again :\. I wish I could go test too :( lol

[Joe_smith]

umm.... that's not how ww works buddy... When 2 barbs WW at each other they DO hit one another in mid ww. I know wut ur saying though about anticipating. Just keep in mind though that in the upper non pub dueling circles we don't do as much anticipating, we just ww right at each other (kinda like knights w/ lances who charge, lance, then turnabout and do it all over again). The reason for this is that anyone can learn to antcipate where a ww will go (minus short WW's :lol: ) so it's almost considered BM. This tactic is known as WW "dodging" and IS conisdered BM. Not because it gives anyone an unfair advantage (I can dodge like a mofo if I feel like it), but because if everyone "dodges" then BvB duels would take Forever to finish. It's considered honorable to just run head to head, the idea being that the better built barb will win (so u better have a better build :uhhuh: ). Basically it's a contest for pride, who can build the best baba.

As for the buggy AR, I'm more and more beginning to suspect that it has something to do w/ def. For all of u testing try running 15-17k def (yes, hella low I know...) with angelic then w/ raven/highlord and post wut results u get. Also keep in mind that differences in barbs "might" also be a factor. Me and other top barbs have noticed that most pubby barbs with duel angelic can't touch us period. Also I had a friend (the current #1 barb on east) run highlord/raven against me with I believe roughly 17k def. I ran with 41k def (most ever on a WW barb I believe on nL :lol: , RECORD?!). He butchered my barb, and before anyone asks, we r stictly legit, no hacked items etc (unless u want to count 3/20/20's but those r pretty standard for duels these days). Keep experimenting...

who's this #1 barb on east ur talking about. and beatomg 41k def barb with 17 either ur barb sucked in other areas or there's something fishy about that. or perhaps he has some kind of super high ar damage and ow build maybe using an ow armor?

oh hexes,whites and iths were pretty standard in 1.09 dueling. i guess that made them ok?

[fallen angel of satan]

Joe I know 3//20//20's are 99% dupes but you cant compare them to straight out hacks like hexes whites and iths. The only time a 3/20/20s are really frowned apon is clan dueling, and even then Ive discovered most people dont mind them that much, unless they loose a lot of course, while back in 1.09 as soon as anyone with any hacks entered a game people abused them (even they used mh, a hack, lol :\ I dont get that logic).

Sorry ime ramling on, basically Ime saying that 3/20/20's are becoming more and more standard and are definately 100% more legit that iths etc.

[Fire_Dragon]

who's this #1 barb on east ur talking about. and beatomg 41k def barb with 17 either ur barb sucked in other areas or there's something fishy about that. or perhaps he has some kind of super high ar damage and ow build maybe using an ow armor?

oh hexes,whites and iths were pretty standard in 1.09 dueling. i guess that made them ok?
Well Joe smith... we prefer to remain anonomous (I never duel publicely anymore becuz whenever I do I get non stop whispers afterward about adding me 2 someones F list, or showing my gear, or y am I so good etc... also someone has been trying to hack my acc for 3 weeks running, gah...). And as for my barb sucking in "other areas"... LOL. And if any of u really are interested in knowing how good my barb is, I used 2 duel with l2aider1 before he quit d2 (someone else uses his acc now I believe). And He would no longer be #1 barb anyway... he'd be #1 axe barb, but #2 overall if he came back. And as for my friend beating my 41k def, guess wut buddy, that's y this post is about a "bugg" with ww and def/AR...

[Fire_Dragon]

Good news ppl, I may have figured out the bugg! That being said I need to run a few final tests, but I can say this much... I think it has to do w/ how the game calculates def/AR... I can't b more specific at this time (if this is the case, it may not be a true "bugg" in the sense we normally think of buggs, just weird math calcs on the designers part...).

[Kirsty]

When performing whirlwind the character is in the attack state. The skill itself causes the character to move around the map, that's just part of the skill. The character is not in a walk or run state when using the skill in spite of what it may appear to look like. Since the skill itself does nothing to change the defense or blocking chances, they should be the same as when you are standing still.

It may look like you are being attacked by melee opponents which do no damage, but this is not due to your defense rating protecting you. It is mainly linked to the fact that the attack routine is a sequenced animation which is dependant on several things. The attack point is defined as one of the frames somewhere usually near the middle of the sequence. In case of barbarian whirlwind this will be every 4th frame. If you have moved out of the melee range by the time that frame is reached you will not be hit due to a check on if you were within range or not.

Whirlwind is special where it checks every 4 frames if there should be an attack or not. The first (4th frame) and second time *8th frame) you get an attack and after that, there must pass at least some amount of frames (delay) before you get another attack. This is dependant on the weapons wsm/ias.

According to Hammerman it is related as following:

delay = a1_frames*256 / ((weapon ias+wsm+100)*256/100)

a1_frames = frame length of current normal attack
weapon ias = sum of ias sources on the weapon

This is then "breakpointed":

delay value = real delay in frames
0 = 4
12 = 6
15 = 8
18 = 10
20 = 12
23 = 14
26 = 16

There are breakpoints on this, sort of, as you can see from the table. Let's say you get 20 as 'delay'. That means that next attack will be after 12 frames. If you get 0 as delay, the next attack will be on teh 12th frame (4 frames after the second attack check).
If you're dual weilding, the game will switch between weapons every attack.

*dueler #1* *dueler #2*Get over yourselves. There are probably tons of duelers on East who you've never met yet. You're probably very good but proclaiming yourselves as the very best is nonsense.

[Halciet]

*applause from the peanut gallery*

I agree with your sentiments, Kirsty. I will admit, however, that l2aider was the best pvp barb I've ever seen/known, as most people around here will attest. Sad thing he had to leave.

-Hal

[Fire_Dragon]

*applause from the peanut gallery*

I agree with your sentiments, Kirsty. I will admit, however, that l2aider was the best pvp barb I've ever seen/known, as most people around here will attest. Sad thing he had to leave.

-Hal
If u want to hear something really sad Hal, he gave his acc to a complete *******. I don't know the guy well at all, but he's a jerk big time! He insults everyone and acts like he made Fury_LND (for those of u who don't know, that was l2aider1's ww barb). On a more personal note: Kirsty I have known and dueled ALL of the top barbs on bnet. I've dueled in puby looking for other godly highly skilled barbs. Fact is somebody has 2 b the best (though it is not me as I've said) and he (and myself) have worked very hard to make our barbs. If u really want to u can rattle off some names of barbs u feel r truly skilled and I'll let u know whether or not I have dueled them or not. Also, being the best does not mean we are unbeatable, far from it. We duel tourney style only, in other words no BM items such as slow, 290's etc. A max of 7 rounds, whoever wins 4 is the better barb (though this can and does change after ppl have lvled, retooled etc.), but it hardly changes much anymore. l2aider1 was very much beatable and so am I. The point though, is that our win to loss ratio is very high. We don't think we're unbeatable (well, the current #1 guy does...), but we do work very hard to get our reputations and keep them. It's our way of weeding out ppl who can't duel us and ensuring that every time we duel, we get one hell of a match :)! Sry if u think I'm stuck up on myself, I'm not... most of us r pretty friendly ppl :thumbsup: . Also ur input for the ww was... educational. But I'm looking at a certain flaw/bugg/wutever u want to call it that makes high def barbs obsolete. Besides, with a S/S or A/S ww barb 35% ias 1 hand hits 2nd bp so I'm alittle confused as 2 wut ur trying to say w/ all ur info? (though it was interesting). PM me sometime if u want to duel, I'd b more than happy 2 :howdy: .

[Halciet]

Well, l2aider's cockiness was more of an act. I knew him before he started serious dueling, back when we were formulating pvp strategies for conc barbs. He's an acquired taste, but the "jerk" impression is one he puts on to screw with people, as that's how 90% of the 12-14 year olds on b.net act. He was really cool if you knew him well.

The original plan for his account was to have one huge tournament for all the east pvp barbs before he shipped off with the navy, where the winner would take the account. Things didn't go as planned though, so he just ended up giving the account away.

Though you are right, if you didn't know him and his ways, and you hadn't talked to him much, then he'd definately come off as a jerk.

-Hal

[Fire_Dragon]

Well, l2aider's cockiness was more of an act. I knew him before he started serious dueling, back when we were formulating pvp strategies for conc barbs. He's an acquired taste, but the "jerk" impression is one he puts on to screw with people, as that's how 90% of the 12-14 year olds on b.net act. He was really cool if you knew him well.

The original plan for his account was to have one huge tournament for all the east pvp barbs before he shipped off with the navy, where the winner would take the account. Things didn't go as planned though, so he just ended up giving the account away.

Though you are right, if you didn't know him and his ways, and you hadn't talked to him much, then he'd definately come off as a jerk.

-Hal
I didn't mean Mike was a jerk Hal lol, he was always a nice guy (little weird, but arent we all?). Mike was the one who got me 2 come East (I use 2 play on West only) to duel the best bnet barbs according to him. When I said "jerk" I was talking about the guy he gave his acc 2 after he stopped playing d2 and left for the navy. This other guy (they shared the acc before mike left) is just mean... definately not somebody u'd want to talk 2... rude, conceded, racist... did I mention conceded?

[Halciet]

Ah, sorry, I misread that, thought you were talking about M, hah hah. Had to come to his defense a bit, since he's really cool once you get talking to him. I was just conceding that he can come off as a jerk to the uninitiated ;)

-Hal

[Kirsty]

I'm not a barbarian dueler and I generally don't care about it either. The point is that grading yourself top players among the large population of Bnet, the majority whom you've never even seen in pvp action, is pure nonsense. You may have scourged around games and leagues and found yourself winning more than losing but that's no guarantee at all that you're the best. At best I estimate you've met about 1% of the current population.
Winning a whirlwind competition also doesn't grade you as best, it probably only means that your opponent just doesn't have good gear. There's a fine distinction between being a good dueler and having good gear.


The info is from Hammerman and Ruvanal who showed how whirlwind works. The breakpoints are the same as the ones known, but at least more elaborate only to indicate the workings of whirlwind. You wanted to know right, so you could unravel the workings and checks, hence I posted the info.
I did forget to add a few things.

a1 action mode
1hs=16 most 1 handed weapons use this
2hs=18 two-handed swords
2ht=19 two-handed spears
bow=15
hth=12 fists/no weapon in hand
stf=19 staves, polearms and the two-handed axes/hammers
xbw=20
1ht=16 knives and javelins class weapon in melee.

In the formula the "weapon ias+wsm" factor can be treated as a single net factor of WIAS-WSM (faster weapons have a negative value so they will be quicker). For the third a later attack you will get frame delays of the following based on the weapon used and the net WIAS-WSM factor.

1ht/1hs/2hs (will cover all barbarian one handed attacks and all swords one or two handed use)
delay WIAS-WSM
16 -39 and lower
14 -38 to -31
12 -30 to -20
10 -19 to -11
8 -10 to +7
6 +8 to +33
4 +34 and higher

2ht or stf (covers all the barbarian two handed weapons except for swords)
frame
delay WIAS-WSM
16 -27 and lower
14 -26 to -18
12 -17 to -5
10 -4 to +5
8 +6 to +26
6 +27 to +58
4 +59 and higher

hth
If you're not using a weapon, the "real delay" will be 10.

So basically there are more breakpoints than currently listed.

The 1 hs breakpoints are here 8 and 34, but are known as 10 and 35. There are more breakpoints than actually used.
The 2 ht breakpoints are here 6, 27 and 59, but are known as 10, 30 and 60. There are more breakpoints than actually used.

Example: Using a Scimitar (WSM=-20) righthand and a Falcion (WSM=+20) left hand, with no IAS mods on them.
1st attack rh frame 4
2nd attack lh frame +4= 8
3rd attack rh frame +6= 14
4th attack lh frame +12= 26 horrible weapon
5th attack rh frame +6= 32
6th attack lh frame +12= 44
etc.
side note: Amost 2 seconds would have passed with only 6 attacks having been made, with the first 2 having happened in the first 1/3 of a second. Cases like this it would be better to just do very short dash WW and start again instead of a single continous WW attack.A lot of bla bla to get to the same breakpoints that are well known by now, but maybe a bit crucial nonetheless.

Basically for an optimised barbarian you'll have the highest breakpoints and then the only thing that's interesting in the whole information bit is that weapon range plays a role in whether you get the last few checks of the whirlwind sequence or not (a check every 4th frame). If one has a range 3 weapon and the other a range 2 then the outcome is simple, the range 3 hits more often.

If you both have weapon range 3 then it's a simple issue of who got the 1 to 3 frame head start on getting the attack checks on the opponent (suppose you both start the whirls in advance and dueler 1 starts hitting whereas dueler 2 is still 3 frames from getting his first check). Whirling in the same direction shortens the net effective time you'll have to hit your opponent giving rise to less attack checks than with a stationary character and can still result in 1 extra attack check for one of the duelers (the one who got his first check first).

[fallen angel of satan]

nice post kirsty, and she does have a point about being the best, There are literlly thousands of ppl who play on Bnet, and the best duelers ive come across dont take it seriously(they dont use bm either) they either duel pubby or ppl on their m8s list. Now this is not a flame, ime not trying to say that your m8 isnt the best barb around, just that no1 knows who is actually number 1.
O and there are good duelers in other realms other than east. Ive played in east west and europe over the years, europe is the most fun for me. I aint played asia yet though, maybe nxt time my acc is hacked ill start there. O and as for ppl wanting to add you to theirs m8s list for bein so good, even ppl like me get that.

[Halciet]

Right, I agree with you guys, that's why I always state it as "best barb i've ever seen/met," in order to be more technically correct ;)

-Hal

[Superhal]

imho, all the really good duelers quit: darius, mob, jeb90, glimmetam(sp?), etc.

I'm not saying this because of playing them, but because of their knowledge and (especially for mob and glimmitiam) the stuff they would put up for trade in the uswest trade forum, if kirsty's theory about the best eq = the best duelers is correct.

imho, the "best" duelers are in pubbies. my limited knowledge of "legit" dueling was a lot of rules that people made up so they would have a chance against the most extreme builds (eg. no dam reduce for sorcs, no using charged items, limit on poison, can't have 160/60 armor, etc.) i think one list of rules i saw (might have been an early draft of the rules for clan honor or something) had like 200 items. imho, this is the result of people who don't want to get beat. if they weren't afraid, they would do anything goes, any time, any where. i can't count how many people in channels used to whine about "gee i'm full of hexes and i'm still getting beat, what's up with that?"

personally, i don't see what's the big deal. i play alone, set goals, and am happy when i reach them. darius would always say pvp was where the "real" diablo began. also, i get enough crying in trade channels, forums, and public channels, so why would i want to increase the whine-o-meter by looking for more people to play with/against? :)

regarding the "best," i will refer to a quote by Bill Mizerak, one of the top ranked pool players in the world: "When you look at the top 10 players in the world, #1 can get beat by any other player in the top 10 at any time." In other words, to paraphrase another common pool saying, "no matter how good you are, there's always someone better."

ps. kirsty, you don't have to keep putting up hammerman's info. i have a link for it in "ww discussion" here.

[Fire_Dragon]

hmm... thought I'd cover the point about anyone in top 10 getting knocked off by someone else in top 10... happens alot, I believe I said after lvling is completed etc. Anyway, as fun as this was becoming for me :) I'd love to get this topic back on track. Does anyone have specific info on how def vs. AR is calculated by the game? In other words if 2 barbs go at it, 1 has 35k+ def and other guy only has lets say 17k+ AR, how does the computer calculate how much AR is required to hit the 35k def barb?

p.s.
If anyone wants to fight a real good WW BvB guy, go fight Jonz-Alpha (no, this is not me). He runs low def and deals 6k+ 1 hand dmg. It'll b a fun duel for u and might even shed some light on how the game calculates AR/def (he runs low def, yet is hard to hit while also hitting high def barbs ALOT).

[jjashik]

hmm... thought I'd cover the point about anyone in top 10 getting knocked off by someone else in top 10... happens alot, I believe I said after lvling is completed etc. Anyway, as fun as this was becoming for me :) I'd love to get this topic back on track. Does anyone have specific info on how def vs. AR is calculated by the game? In other words if 2 barbs go at it, 1 has 35k+ def and other guy only has lets say 17k+ AR, how does the computer calculate how much AR is required to hit the 35k def barb?

p.s.
If anyone wants to fight a real good WW BvB guy, go fight Jonz-Alpha (no, this is not me). He runs low def and deals 6k+ 1 hand dmg. It'll b a fun duel for u and might even shed some light on how the game calculates AR/def (he runs low def, yet is hard to hit while also hitting high def barbs ALOT).

over the weekend i hvae done more extensive testing with ravens/highlords. they do not compare to using angelics i tested this on barbs ranging from 14k-42k def. all did better with angelics.

edit: i also know a barb like jonz-alpha on west runs low def with fury and deals around 4k dmg with fury and owns all barbs i've ever seen.

[Fire_Dragon]

plz no more posts on angelic being better... (no offense). But wutever this bug/ calculation glitch is, angelic doesn't compare 2 highlord/raven build. Once again does anyone know how the game calculates AR vs amount of Def? I think the key to this odd WW phenomenon is tied 2 this...

[fallen angel of satan]

jjashik said that he has tested for all those defences and said that angelic where better, couldn't it be something else other than just defence, it could be something to do with % increase for instance it could calculate the ar for the shown value, but when you actually fight it does not follow the value shown on your char screen, this is just a theory and I have no way to test it atm. Ime just saying that it does not have to be defence//ar relationship

[jjashik]

jjashik said that he has tested for all those defences and said that angelic where better, couldn't it be something else other than just defence, it could be something to do with % increase for instance it could calculate the ar for the shown value, but when you actually fight it does not follow the value shown on your char screen, this is just a theory and I have no way to test it atm. Ime just saying that it does not have to be defence//ar relationship

i agree with fallen. it might be related to something else. i would think that the calculations for ar vs. def in the game would relate to:the higher the ar the better chance to hit and higher the def less chance to be hit. the ability to hit seems to be related to the clvl of the two barbs dueling as well.

[Kirsty]

ps. kirsty, you don't have to keep putting up hammerman's info. i have a link for it in "ww discussion" here.Oh really? Sorry about that, I didn't notice. I just had this stuff stashed for quite some time in some files I have at home.


PS: I hope I didn't insult anyone with my "best dueler" ramblings, I'm certain you're all very good. I just have issues with unchartered rankings.


EDIT: Also note that level differences have an effect on the "to hit" calculation

[Fire_Dragon]

I hate this bug... somebody figure it out plllllzzzzzz!

[fallen angel of satan]

lol, I think it something blizz have put in the game, that is random, just to piss us off lol

[awjl]

OT: Someone mentioned pvp is where the "real" Diablo began.

i agree. You guys and gals can continue with your profound discussion.

[Kirsty]

Uhm... pvp has nothing to do with the "Real Diablo" since it is storyline independant.

[Fire_Dragon]

Ok, prob my last post on this thread... I dunno if it's really a bug, but heres wut me and a few friends figured out. 20k AR connects w/ 40k+ def (go figure). Maybe this means that for every 2 points of def, u only need 1 point of AR to hit... anyway this explains def can become moot. I say shoot for 25k and ur fine. Also tnx to Kirsty for the important (if lengthy ;)) post on when ww connects. Practice ur whirls and pray that u hit first... ur 25k def should be fine (I know I am now seriosely lowering my def and having great success). Guess it's not a bug, just funky game calculations I guess... This also answers the ravens/highlord vs angelic arguement. Once u hit roughly 23k AR u "should" be able to hit any barb out there. So if u need angelics to hit this amount, use them. If u got good AR and raven/highlord can get u to this much AR use them...

[fallen angel of satan]

that makes sense fire_dragon

[belth]

By straight math with the formula to calculate to-hit %, someone with 17000 AR has 32% to hit someone with 35000 defense.


Chance to Hit is capped at 95% chance and is calculated as follows :

200 * (AR / (AR + DR)) * (AL / (AL + DL))

AR is Attacker's Attack Rating
AL is Attacker's Level
DR is Defender's Defense Rating
DL is Defender's Level

[Kirsty]

Indeed. 20k AR vs 40k defense means a 33% chance to hit. To get at least an 80% chance to hit an opponent of the same level you'll need to have 4 times the amount of attack rating than the defense rating of your opponent. That means 40k defense -> 160k AR.

[Superhal]

most likely, somebody with low ar "owning" somebody else with over 20k defense probably has a lot to do with attacking while the opponent is running.

[Fire_Dragon]

20kAR seems 2 hit 40k def in my experience... maybe I'm just a very lucky barb... doubt it though.

[Kirsty]

It's just luck.

[StrikexForce]

enchant is a must if a dual raven barb is going to bvb

[ReVolution]

I use dual ravens/highlords for BVB, and after enchant ar is 16.6k, and against some of the best BVB barbs with ~30k+ def I win 50/50. Not to mention my barb isn't pure bvb, just base 1 iron skin and shout maxed, and just 24k def after BO set and with 2105 def eth Valor..

[thesecondrei]

^^Thats cuz your baba is pro xe O_O