why not absorb?

[disc]

ok im going to play devils advocate here and suggest a d2 pvp world where absorb isnt considered bm. if absorb was a viable tactic just think of the possibilites?

players would be forced to use more than one skill for example more classes like vts.
just imagaine duels were sorcs use more than tele and blizzard to defeat another player.
trap assasins would be forced to use other skills off the skill tree so they couldnt use mind blast and spam the same trap over and over.
there would be more variables on set ups so we might see two wind druids using different equipment.

before you ask the only time i use absorb is when i get hosted by high lvls such as trappers and i slap on tg and guardian angel. my pala is lvl 49 and it never seems to surprise me that a lvl 95 trapsin cannot negate a lvl 49....i do not use absorb when dueling legit duels and thats because its against the "rules" but i think there is an argument to suggets this game may be more intersting if absorb was acceptable.

post your views and the characters you play pls. flame away..

[syphon45]

I always kind of thought that a little bit of absorb was alright against high damage elemental attackers so that your not killed in one or two hits. For example, using a tgod's against a light assassin. the traps will still do good damage, and they have mindblast anyways, so its not like you completely negated their whole character. You just gave yours a better chance.

[LLD-Vampire]

absorb is pretty lame because you can't completly negate physical attacks like you can with elements, so what your not allowed to use elements? with the right equipment you can pretty much absorb/resist every element enough so that no sorc has a fighting chance.

But like against trappers I see many with a chaos/nats claw switch who use ww as a second form of damage. Wind druids use tornado as main form of damage so I didn't really get that one.

[Pallidum]

I agree a little absorb is ok against sorcs and trappers that can do tremendous amounts of damage and 1 hit ko. When it levels the playing field where both char takes 4-5 hits to kill each other, I thinks its perfectly fine.

[sbc84]

Besides the SORC whos attacks are all elemental and all 3 elements can be almost fully absorbed at the same time, no other class can cry about absorb.

Examples:

Pure trapsin = defective assassin build, try to use other skill trees
FC or Fire elem druid= screwed up druid build, try to mix in some physical dmg
Lightning Jav amazon = one of the most messed-up amazon build ever. why? Looking at all the other good skills you can also invest in instead of stacking all in one weak basket.

and the list goes on...

[mepersoner]

FC or Fire elem druid= screwed up druid build, try to mix in some physical dmg
Fire druids do do physical damage.

[sbc84]

Fire druids do do physical damage.

I didn't know. Please explain.

[Joe_smith]

absorb is pretty lame because you can't completly negate physical attacks like you can with elements, so what your not allowed to use elements? with the right equipment you can pretty much absorb/resist every element enough so that no sorc has a fighting chance.

But like against trappers I see many with a chaos/nats claw switch who use ww as a second form of damage. Wind druids use tornado as main form of damage so I didn't really get that one.

you avoided to mention your fav class necro does magic damage, at least physical damage can be dred. magic>physical>poison>elemental in terms of negatability.

[Module88]

absorb is pretty lame because you can't completly negate physical attacks like you can with elements, so what your not allowed to use elements? with the right equipment you can pretty much absorb/resist every element enough so that no sorc has a fighting chance.

But like against trappers I see many with a chaos/nats claw switch who use ww as a second form of damage. Wind druids use tornado as main form of damage so I didn't really get that one.

Again, you make the build, you deal with its weaknesses. If you make a full ice sorc and get absorbed to hell, it was your fault. Ever consider someone might do that? Try making a dual tree sorc?

[syphon45]

I didn't know. Please explain.
They do a neglible amount of physical damage from their phase blade or whatever other weapon they use. Unless it is a maul/fc hybrid which will do a pretty good amount of physical dmg along with fireclaws.

[Soepgroente]

I didn't know. Please explain.
Fire claws = fire dmg + regular phys attack. Volcano does half physical damage. Though if you nullify all the fire damage on a FC bear you're right that it doesn't really leave a lot of chance for the druid.

[Zelc]

1) Not every class can afford to go dual-tree. You run into problems with synergies, +skill charms, and/or equipment. I'd like to see you try to make a decent dual-tree PvP sorceress.

2) Suppose you decide to go for Frozen Orb and some fire attack. I'll just put on 2x Raven Frosts, a 4 Perfect Sapphire Monarch, Infernotreads, Nokozan Relic, Um Guardian Angel, and some resist items and charms. Try hurting me now.

3) There's nothing wrong with wearing 1 absorb. It even enhances balance. However, 40% absorb + 95% resists so you take no damage is bm.

[AndyChrono]

Again, you make the build, you deal with its weaknesses. If you make a full ice sorc and get absorbed to hell, it was your fault. Ever consider someone might do that? Try making a dual tree sorc?

Really? Care to name a sorc build that can't be absorbed? You won't be able to because there simply isn't one. It really doesn't matter if you are dual-tree or even an archmage. ANY sorc build can be absorbed. You name the build, I'll name the items.

[Module88]

Really? Care to name a sorc build that can't be absorbed? You won't be able to because there simply isn't one. It really doesn't matter if you are dual-tree or even an archmage. ANY sorc build can be absorbed. You name the build, I'll name the items.

CM and Bliz maxed (No syn) and perhaps, we'll say firebolt with FM and synergies, cold charms all the way. So in effect, hell difficulty, you'll need 475 or so CR+ 95% CR with dual raven's and probably snowclash to absorb it all, and you still need 195% FR (assuming no facets) and good absorb to cut off the damage to nil. If you don't absorb it all, well, rising sun and some resists just isn't enough to cut off all that damage, if you've ever tested it.

[Module88]

1) Not every class can afford to go dual-tree. You run into problems with synergies, +skill charms, and/or equipment. I'd like to see you try to make a decent dual-tree PvP sorceress.

And no one said every class could.


2) Suppose you decide to go for Frozen Orb and some fire attack. I'll just put on 2x Raven Frosts, a 4 Perfect Sapphire Monarch, Infernotreads, Nokozan Relic, Um Guardian Angel, and some resist items and charms. Try hurting me now.

You are going to eat that fire damage. No, it won't be nearly as powerful, but I wouldn't stand around in it either.


3) There's nothing wrong with wearing 1 absorb. It even enhances balance. However, 40% absorb + 95% resists so you take no damage is bm.

Aside from the fact that blizzard with good CM and the right gear will still kill you quickly.

[AndyChrono]

CM and Bliz maxed (No syn) and perhaps, we'll say firebolt with FM and synergies, cold charms all the way. So in effect, hell difficulty, you'll need 475 or so CR+ 95% CR with dual raven's and probably snowclash to absorb it all, and you still need 195% FR (assuming no facets) and good absorb to cut off the damage to nil. If you don't absorb it all, well, rising sun and some resists just isn't enough to cut off all that damage, if you've ever tested it.

Errrr, Blizz with no Synergies doesn't do anywhere close to enough damage. With just 2 Ravens, Snowclash, and Blackoak you need at least 2k blizz to do any damage even with NO resist on the other person. With no synergies you would barely go over that threshold, and even if you add in fathom, nightwings, etc, a little bit of resist will be the end of the day. If he can just break even with around 0 resist in hell you will already be doing little to no damage to him. A few more resist charms, and its off to lunch while you blizz him.

As for the fireball, the most you could possibly get with this build is about 4k avg damage since you went with cold charms. 80% fire resist and a Rising Sun alone and its healing.

If its a paladin, barb, or assassin who have skills that boost their resistances, absorbing this build is pretty easy. Other classes may need a few more resist charms, but nothing super expensive or hard to obtain. On the other hand, how much does it cost you to buy yourself the skillers, perfect/near perfect items (fathom, nightwings, ormus), all the other items like maras, tals, etc? The cost of that stuff can run several Sojs, as opposed to the absolute counter to it which is composed of items that you can obtain for P.Gems easily.

[Zelc]

And no one said every class could.
Variety is a good thing, and 1.10 has hurt that badly enough. Are you saying we should make Wind Druids, Necromancers, and Hammerdins BETTER? Suddenly, so many classes, including Trapsins, Fire Druids, Sorceresses (see below), Lightning Zons, and FOHdins all become unviable. If 95% resists and 175% PDR is allowed, there go Plague Zons, Rabies Druids, and Poison Necromancers. Let's play Windy Druid vs. Necromancers vs. Hammerdins all day long! Fun Fun Fun!


CM and Bliz maxed (No syn) and perhaps, we'll say firebolt with FM and synergies, cold charms all the way. So in effect, hell difficulty, you'll need 475 or so CR+ 95% CR with dual raven's and probably snowclash to absorb it all, and you still need 195% FR (assuming no facets) and good absorb to cut off the damage to nil. If you don't absorb it all, well, rising sun and some resists just isn't enough to cut off all that damage, if you've ever tested it.
With 96 skill points (lvl 85), you can max Blizzard, Cold Mastery, Fireball, Fire Mastery, and dump 12 points into Firebolt. Assuming +20 all skills (you're NOT getting +20 all skills), you deal 6k-6.4k damage with Fireball, and 2k-2.1k damage with Blizzard, piercing 215% cold resists. Let's suppose that your opponent does not stack CR, and ends up with -100% CR, but still has 75% FR. Your Blizzard will do 2.1k * 1/6 * 2 = 700 damage, and your Fireball will do 6.4k * 1/6 * .25 = 266 damage. Two Raven Frosts will be 40% absorb, meaning 80% of your 700 cold damage is negated, leaving you with a 140 damage Blizzard. A Rising Sun, at level 85, absorbs 63 fire damage, leaving your Fireball with 140 damage (convenient how that worked out). Low-range, non-tracking spells that do 140 damage is NOT dueling material. Note that I did not factor in stuff like stacking CR or +max FR.

In comparison, a level 85 Necromancer easily get a 3.6k MIN Bone Spear/Spirit without using Marrowwalks. After PvP penalty, it hits for 600 damage. If someone's stupid enough to craft a safety shield, it could be further reduced to 500 odd damage.

Summary: If overabsorbing is allowed, a superbly equiped FB/Blizz Sorceress dueling an averagely wealthy dueler would deal 140/140 damage. A Bone Necromancer does around 500 damage if his opponent crafts a safety shield. Why would anyone make an elemental dueler?


Aside from the fact that blizzard with good CM and the right gear will still kill you quickly.
A level 45 Blizzard with maxed synergies (101 points, or level 90) does 8.4k-8.7k damage, and pierces 240% CR. Let's assume that, due to items, this particular lvl 90 sorc deals 9k damage and pierces 250%. Post-PvP penalty, the Blizzard deals 1500 damage.

A 4 Perfect Sapphire Monarch Shield grants 160% CR. A Perfect Skin of the Vipermagi + Thul gives 35 + 30 = 65% CR. Trang-Oul's Claws gives 30% CR. Totalled, they add up to 255% CR. Factor in 9 5% Resist All Charms (45% CR), and an Um in a Shako (15% CR), and we have 60% CR. Now, Blizzard deals 1500 * .4 = 600 damage. Factor in one Raven Frosts, and we now have 600 * .4 = 240 damage. Note that Blizzard rarely hits twice, and is timered.

[Module88]

With 96 skill points (lvl 85), you can max Blizzard, Cold Mastery, Fireball, Fire Mastery, and dump 12 points into Firebolt. Assuming +20 all skills (you're NOT getting +20 all skills), you deal 6k-6.4k damage with Fireball, and 2k-2.1k damage with Blizzard, piercing 215% cold resists. Let's suppose that your opponent does not stack CR, and ends up with -100% CR, but still has 75% FR. Your Blizzard will do 2.1k * 1/6 * 2 = 700 damage, and your Fireball will do 6.4k * 1/6 * .25 = 266 damage. Two Raven Frosts will be 40% absorb, meaning 80% of your 700 cold damage is negated, leaving you with a 140 damage Blizzard. A Rising Sun, at level 85, absorbs 63 fire damage, leaving your Fireball with 140 damage (convenient how that worked out). Low-range, non-tracking spells that do 140 damage is NOT dueling material. Note that I did not factor in stuff like stacking CR or +max FR.

Neither did you factor in +skills.


In comparison, a level 85 Necromancer easily get a 3.6k MIN Bone Spear/Spirit without using Marrowwalks. After PvP penalty, it hits for 600 damage. If someone's stupid enough to craft a safety shield, it could be further reduced to 500 odd damage.

So what you are saying is, since they are ultimately better, they should be played and we should get rid of everything else that isn't "the best"?


Summary: If overabsorbing is allowed, a superbly equiped FB/Blizz Sorceress dueling an averagely wealthy dueler would deal 140/140 damage. A Bone Necromancer does around 500 damage if his opponent crafts a safety shield. Why would anyone make an elemental dueler?

And if not we all get killed in just a few, if not one or two, hits.


A level 45 Blizzard with maxed synergies (101 points, or level 90) does 8.4k-8.7k damage, and pierces 240% CR. Let's assume that, due to items, this particular lvl 90 sorc deals 9k damage and pierces 250%. Post-PvP penalty, the Blizzard deals 1500 damage.

A 4 Perfect Sapphire Monarch Shield grants 160% CR. A Perfect Skin of the Vipermagi + Thul gives 35 + 30 = 65% CR. Trang-Oul's Claws gives 30% CR. Totalled, they add up to 255% CR. Factor in 9 5% Resist All Charms (45% CR), and an Um in a Shako (15% CR), and we have 60% CR. Now, Blizzard deals 1500 * .4 = 600 damage. Factor in one Raven Frosts, and we now have 600 * .4 = 240 damage. Note that Blizzard rarely hits twice, and is timered.

I believe it's 600 * .6. And 315% Cr is not enough to negate 250+hell difficulty penalty, which is where most games take place.

[Monger]

Personally, I think wearing one piece of absorb is fine. With high resists you won't need more than one to lower damage to a reasonable level.

[awjl]

well, sors can be absorbed. whether 21k fireball (havent try 41k metor) or 7k blizzard.
When my fire is negated, i bring on my cold sor; vice versa.
It's a matter of whether the other person can put on all the items to negate all my elemental chars... if elemental chars are all negated, i bring physical pala or magical necro. :)

[Zelc]

I believe it's 600 * .6. And 315% Cr is not enough to negate 250+hell difficulty penalty, which is where most games take place.
Ugh... serves me right for trying to post right before dinner. My apologies.

Let's try this again...

A 4 Perfect Sapphire Monarch Shield grants 160% CR. A Perfect Skin of the Vipermagi + Thul gives 35 + 30 = 65% CR. Trang-Oul's Claws gives 30% CR. Totalled, they add up to 255% CR. Factor in 10 5% Resist All Charms (50% CR), an Um in a Shako (15% CR), and a perfect Mara's (35%), and we have 100% CR, enough to negate the Hell penalty. Using one Raven Frost, Blizzard deals 1500 * .6 = 900 damage, which should kill most characters in two to three hits. Given its long cooldown time, high point investment, and the difficulty with aiming it (especially with lag), that seems to be balanced to me.

We could also look at the example of a 22k Fireball. After the PvP penalty, it deals 3666 damage. With 85% resists (1 Guardian Angel), Fireball deals 550 damage, or similar damage to the Necromancer's bone spells. Note that this is without absorb, and the resistance is within what most dueling leagues consider acceptable.

Maxed Lightning with maxed synergies can deal more max damage, but even a 42k hit will deal only 1050 damage after PvP penalty and 85% LR. Given the infrequency of such a damaging roll, this looks alright to me.

Besides, the example of Blizzard is one of the extremes. Even Euro-PvP's rules (http://www.euro-pvp.net/index.asp?M=RULES), one of the most balanced set of dueling rules, allows 2 absorbs for many characters against Blizzard sorcs (although many of these characters suffer from a lower CR limit). However, this should be the exception, and two absorbs should not be allowed for just anything.


Neither did you factor in +skills.
Actually, I assumed +20 sorc fire/cold skills, which most people cannot get (is it even possible?).


So what you are saying is, since they are ultimately better, they should be played and we should get rid of everything else that isn't "the best"?
Not at all! I'm saying that because Sorceresses are inferior enough, they shouldn't be nerfed even worse.


And if not we all get killed in just a few, if not one or two, hits.
I've already shown you how easy it is to avoid one-hit-death due to elemental damage, even with one or no absorb. Besides, if you're so worried about this, why don't you work on nerfing Wind Druids and (especially) Hammerdins first?

[Module88]

Ugh... serves me right for trying to post right before dinner. My apologies.

Let's try this again...

No need for excuses. Mistakes happen. Understandable.


A 4 Perfect Sapphire Monarch Shield grants 160% CR. A Perfect Skin of the Vipermagi + Thul gives 35 + 30 = 65% CR. Trang-Oul's Claws gives 30% CR. Totalled, they add up to 255% CR. Factor in 10 5% Resist All Charms (50% CR), an Um in a Shako (15% CR), and a perfect Mara's (35%), and we have 100% CR, enough to negate the Hell penalty. Using one Raven Frost, Blizzard deals 1500 * .6 = 900 damage, which should kill most characters in two to three hits. Given its long cooldown time, high point investment, and the difficulty with aiming it (especially with lag), that seems to be balanced to me.

Did they change maras to have max 35% resist? :scratch: So in other words, you have 355% resistance. -195% for the max resistance, and you are left with about 160%. Cold mastery and other items can overcome that relatively easily.


We could also look at the example of a 22k Fireball. After the PvP penalty, it deals 3666 damage. With 85% resists (1 Guardian Angel), Fireball deals 550 damage, or similar damage to the Necromancer's bone spells. Note that this is without absorb, and the resistance is within what most dueling leagues consider acceptable.

Guardian Angel would give you 90% FR Max. And 550 dmg doesn't seem all that tempting to run into, if you consider the sorc's fire rate.


Besides, the example of Blizzard is one of the extremes. Even Euro-PvP's rules (http://www.euro-pvp.net/index.asp?M=RULES), one of the most balanced set of dueling rules, allows 2 absorbs for many characters against Blizzard sorcs (although many of these characters suffer from a lower CR limit). However, this should be the exception, and two absorbs should not be allowed for just anything.

Actually, I assumed +20 sorc fire/cold skills, which most people cannot get (is it even possible?).

Reasonable. And yes, 20+ skills is relatively easy to obtain.


I've already shown you how easy it is to avoid one-hit-death due to elemental damage, even with one or no absorb. Besides, if you're so worried about this, why don't you work on nerfing Wind Druids and (especially) Hammerdins first?

I can't say two hits or three is much better. Wind druids take several hits (a lot more than sorc's) to kill, depending on the attack the sorc is using. I'm all up for reducing hammerdin damage, but right now we just can't. Sorc dmg however, can be limited with absorb.

[AndyChrono]

+20 All Skills is not possible. +20 to 2 skill trees IS possible but its not exactly easy to obtain.

Shako (+2)
Mara's (+2)
Occy/Fathom/Eschuta/Hoto (+3)
Lidless/Viscerant (+1)
CoH/Enigma/+2 Arkaine's (+2)
Arachnid (+1)
2 Soj's (+2)
Annihilus (+1)
Battle Command (+1)
5 Skill Charms of each of your two trees

That's +20 to two trees. Of course, getting all that stuff runs quite a few Soj's in cost...Not what I would call easy.

[DragonKnight_Aka]

Just to let everyone know that having 95 resist would help cuz ur only taking 5% of that damage ( if I'm right ). Having abosrb with 95 lighting resist make trapsins do crappy damage it would work the same on a fireball sorc . All u need is stacked resist on cold sorcs. The problem with chars that are 1 element is that is too easy to abosrb , get 95 resist , and to stacked resist. Fighting a char that is lighting / fireball sorc would be more better cuz they couldn't easliy get a lot of resist and abosrb. Same way with a blizzard / fireball sorc u would need fire absorb and some stacked resist and to me it won't be too easy to do both. Look at it like this. Lets say ur a dueling room and 2 people go host. on ya. A blizzard sorc and Fireball sorc. That means u would problay need raven's frost for cannot be frozen and cold abosrb and u would use a dwarf. You know using ( I forget the name of that 1 armor that gives u 90 resist to all ) because it dosen't have cold resist. So u would be better off with a coh or something like that. Being double element makes it harder to abosrb and get 95 resist cuz ur Not just dealing with a lighting sorc. Your also dealing with someone who could shoot fireballs at any thing.

I do agree that people should make a sorc that uses 2 spells expect 1 cuz it's too easy to abosrb a fireball sorc.

[DragonKnight_Aka]

the 2nd problem is that the way sygn is setup. It's not easy to have a fireball / lighting sorc cuz those skills won't be that high of damage. I don't think making a blizzard / lighting sorc would be too easy. If u look at how sygn is setup it's for 1 type of spell. It would be better if they did something like fireball would give some damage to lighting. For Exp. But the damage would still be pretty low trying to make double element sorc. Maybe blizzard or whoever should do something about that for the next patch

[Zelc]

Did they change maras to have max 35% resist? :scratch: So in other words, you have 355% resistance. -195% for the max resistance, and you are left with about 160%. Cold mastery and other items can overcome that relatively easily.
Yup, no excuses this time, that extra 5% was my error :(. So, in total, the character would have 350% resist cold. -100% for hell resist penalty, and we're looking at a very high level of Cold Mastery (maybe combined with items) to knock that down into the small negative values. You'll probably end up with -10% RC at most, making the final damage close to 1k damage. This will probably be a two-hit kill, but Blizzard is difficult to aim, especially under lag, and the delay bug will prevent Teleportation for about a second. Additionally, Blizzard is an extreme case, and even Euro-PvP allows for two resists for most characters dueling a Blizzard sorceress. This single case, however, should not justify the usage of multiple sources of absorb for other characters.


Guardian Angel would give you 90% FR Max. And 550 dmg doesn't seem all that tempting to run into, if you consider the sorc's fire rate.
True, but that's where the skill comes in :). One now has a very good incentive for dodging the Fireballs as opposed to tanking them. Suppose we put on two Dwarf Stars. This damage then drops down to 220, which is worse than a good Bowazon using Guided Arrow, a long range tracking attack, against someone with 50% DR.


I can't say two hits or three is much better. Wind druids take several hits (a lot more than sorc's) to kill, depending on the attack the sorc is using. I'm all up for reducing hammerdin damage, but right now we just can't. Sorc dmg however, can be limited with absorb.
A level 40 Tornado with maxed synergies (can be accomplished by level 70) deals 5k to 5.3k damage, or a minimum of 833 damage after the PvP penalty. Up to 50% DR can be worn to minimize this, and we end up with a minimum damage of 416 damage. He will also have Hurricane (2.3k damage, or 95 damage every .8 seconds or so after PvP penalty and 75% CR) and Cyclone Armor (absorbs 2641 elemental damage). The remaining 15 points gained by leveling to 85 can be used to get a level 10 +10 Oak Sage (+125% Life), 1 +10 Raven (5 Ravens), and 1 +10 Spirit Wolves (5 Wolves) for the minion stacking bug, and the Druid still has three more points to put into whatever he wants (Grizzly? Vine? Spirit of Barbs?). While the Wind Druid does less damage than the Sorceress, he sure has a lot more durability, unless Teleport isn't used. Note that this allows the Wind Druid to hit a lot more easily (teleporting to and shooting from point blank range), thus giving him more damage output.

Since Necromancers, Wind Druids, and Hammerdins already have such high damage output, why should we prohibit Sorceresses from having the same? And if we do prohibit these classes from having high damage, should we then do that to all classes? Should we put limits on what weapons a Barbarian or a V/C Paladin uses? Should we make all attacks do at most 300 damage? That would not be fun.


I do agree that people should make a sorc that uses 2 spells expect 1 cuz it's too easy to abosrb a fireball sorc.
Unfortunately, that often means that the spells do little damage, and become easier to absorb.

[Module88]

Yup, no excuses this time, that extra 5% was my error :(. So, in total, the character would have 350% resist cold. -100% for hell resist penalty, and we're looking at a very high level of Cold Mastery (maybe combined with items) to knock that down into the small negative values. You'll probably end up with -10% RC at most, making the final damage close to 1k damage.

Wait. The hell penalty is 100. If you want to get 95% resist, we'll say that's another 100. This is 200 already, without CM. High level CM usually is around 44+, that, combined with other -cold items requires you to have a lot more than 350.


This will probably be a two-hit kill, but Blizzard is difficult to aim, especially under lag, and the delay bug will prevent Teleportation for about a second.

Blizzard is an area of affect spell. It's not hard to aim at all, click on the same screen and you will probably get a hit. And if any pvp character lags, they will obviously have a disadvantage, so that point is moot. Teleportation has no casting delay, and therefore, you can cast it immediately after bliz, you just can't cast bliz one after the other.


True, but that's where the skill comes in :). One now has a very good incentive for dodging the Fireballs as opposed to tanking them. Suppose we put on two Dwarf Stars. This damage then drops down to 220, which is worse than a good Bowazon using Guided Arrow, a long range tracking attack, against someone with 50% DR.

Still, you have basically no leeway for error at all. Considering that it takes most other pvp classes a lot more than 1-3 hits to kill, it doesn't seem all that fair. And your math is probably off somewhere, though FB sounds about right. Not quite sure since I haven't done the math.



A level 40 Tornado with maxed synergies (can be accomplished by level 70) deals 5k to 5.3k damage, or a minimum of 833 damage after the PvP penalty. Up to 50% DR can be worn to minimize this, and we end up with a minimum damage of 416 damage. He will also have Hurricane (2.3k damage, or 95 damage every .8 seconds or so after PvP penalty and 75% CR) and Cyclone Armor (absorbs 2641 elemental damage). The remaining 15 points gained by leveling to 85 can be used to get a level 10 +10 Oak Sage (+125% Life), 1 +10 Raven (5 Ravens), and 1 +10 Spirit Wolves (5 Wolves) for the minion stacking bug, and the Druid still has three more points to put into whatever he wants (Grizzly? Vine? Spirit of Barbs?). While the Wind Druid does less damage than the Sorceress, he sure has a lot more durability, unless Teleport isn't used. Note that this allows the Wind Druid to hit a lot more easily (teleporting to and shooting from point blank range), thus giving him more damage output.

Lvl 40 T is relatively low. But, you end up with around 400 damage, + hurricane. Consider that once you get hit with this much damage, and the hurricane, you will go into stunlock, and will be in FHR so much you wouldn't be able to move. Sorceresses don't have that continous stunlock that druids do.


Since Necromancers, Wind Druids, and Hammerdins already have such high damage output, why should we prohibit Sorceresses from having the same? And if we do prohibit these classes from having high damage, should we then do that to all classes? Should we put limits on what weapons a Barbarian or a V/C Paladin uses? Should we make all attacks do at most 300 damage? That would not be fun.

Still, only the hammerdin can one hit ko like the sorc's (depending on several factors), and hammerdins don't exactly have that long range punch sorc's do (again, depending on several things). I'm not saying to nerf them so that you don't do damage, but make it so you can live for more than one shot. Furthermore, I'm sure if we could, we would nerf those other classes. Druid DMG can be reduced, but since magic can't, there's not much we can do, even if we wanted to. Sorc's should be absorbed so that you can't do damage, but they sure shouldn't one hit ko if you can prevent it. At least allow for 4-6 hits.

[Zelc]

Wait. The hell penalty is 100. If you want to get 95% resist, we'll say that's another 100. This is 200 already, without CM. High level CM usually is around 44+, that, combined with other -cold items requires you to have a lot more than 350.
We don't need 75% resists. All I'm shooting for is 0%, and my calculations factor that in. More is nice, and 50% will insure nothing less than a 3 hit kill. Put on 75% resists somehow and it'll be an 6 hit kill.


Blizzard is an area of affect spell. It's not hard to aim at all, click on the same screen and you will probably get a hit. And if any pvp character lags, they will obviously have a disadvantage, so that point is moot. Teleportation has no casting delay, and therefore, you can cast it immediately after bliz, you just can't cast bliz one after the other.
That works in theory. However, for some odd reason, you cannot use any skills right after you use one with a delay timer. Well, at least, you cannot use Teleport right after, I'm not sure about all skills.

And well, maybe I just suck, but when I dueled on IP with a Blizzard sorc, I had a hard time hitting people. The shards landed in a semi-random fashion, and the entire AoE does not trigger damage the moment the spell is cast. One must wait for a shard to hit a certain point within the AoE. To avoid an instant hit, try to approach from the sides, not from a diagonal. I also had trouble with long ranged AoE characters.


Still, you have basically no leeway for error at all. Considering that it takes most other pvp classes a lot more than 1-3 hits to kill, it doesn't seem all that fair. And your math is probably off somewhere, though FB sounds about right. Not quite sure since I haven't done the math.
There's never a great deal of leeway in dueling. Getting stunlocked or in melee range is bad, and any character can do that.


Lvl 40 T is relatively low. But, you end up with around 400 damage, + hurricane. Consider that once you get hit with this much damage, and the hurricane, you will go into stunlock, and will be in FHR so much you wouldn't be able to move. Sorceresses don't have that continous stunlock that druids do.
Yup, and therefore, Sorceresses do not need a nerf, which unlimited absorb certainly is.


Still, only the hammerdin can one hit ko like the sorc's (depending on several factors), and hammerdins don't exactly have that long range punch sorc's do (again, depending on several things). I'm not saying to nerf them so that you don't do damage, but make it so you can live for more than one shot.
I agree perfectly, but Sorceresses have a hard time killing in 1 hit already with good gear preparation.


Furthermore, I'm sure if we could, we would nerf those other classes. Druid DMG can be reduced, but since magic can't, there's not much we can do, even if we wanted to. Sorc's should be absorbed so that you can't do damage, but they sure shouldn't one hit ko if you can prevent it. At least allow for 4-6 hits.
Sorcs don't one hit KO, and wearing multiple absorb would easily mean anything from 10-hit KO to healing from their attacks. Besides, if you want to complain about Sorceress damage, complain about Necromancer or Druid damage first, and find a way to nerf them first (find/create dueling league, limit synergies or something). Otherwise, we just have another useless character after being hit by the nerf stick, and decreasing variety is not good.

[Module88]

We don't need 75% resists. All I'm shooting for is 0%, and my calculations factor that in. More is nice, and 50% will insure nothing less than a 3 hit kill. Put on 75% resists somehow and it'll be an 6 hit kill.

Without any absorb after the penalty, you will take about 1350 dmg per shard after the penalty. With one frost, it turns out to be around 800 or so. But still, the problem lies within overcoming that -340 CR from the penalty and CM. This is without the use of other -CR items, so even getting resistance can be challenging.


That works in theory. However, for some odd reason, you cannot use any skills right after you use one with a delay timer. Well, at least, you cannot use Teleport right after, I'm not sure about all skills.

Worked for me. =/ The teleport is not "red," and therefore you can cast right away. Perhaps you are counting the time it actually takes to cast it.


There's never a great deal of leeway in dueling. Getting stunlocked or in melee range is bad, and any character can do that.

But not nearly as easily. The only characters I can quickly see capable of doing it so easily are asns with MB, wind druids, and perhaps a zealot with good ar, or wolf.


Sorcs don't one hit KO, and wearing multiple absorb would easily mean anything from 10-hit KO to healing from their attacks. Besides, if you want to complain about Sorceress damage, complain about Necromancer or Druid damage first, and find a way to nerf them first (find/create dueling league, limit synergies or something). Otherwise, we just have another useless character after being hit by the nerf stick, and decreasing variety is not good.

Most other duelers take a lot more than 10 hits to kill an ES sorc. As far as making things fair, perhaps some league could be formed where your absorb is limited depending on your character. Though this would make things complicated, I suppose it would make things more "fair." Personally I'm not a big fan of that kind of stuff, but it would work for those picky ones.

[Zelc]

Without any absorb after the penalty, you will take about 1350 dmg per shard after the penalty. With one frost, it turns out to be around 800 or so. But still, the problem lies within overcoming that -340 CR from the penalty and CM. This is without the use of other -CR items, so even getting resistance can be challenging.
800 per shard isn't so bad, considering that Blizzard has a 1.8 second cooldown time and can be difficult to aim. My calculations show how you can get 350% CR. Just keep a few extra charms around if they have more -CR items. Or, you could accept Blizzard (and maybe Orb) as the exception to the 1 absorb rule.


Worked for me. =/ The teleport is not "red," and therefore you can cast right away. Perhaps you are counting the time it actually takes to cast it.
I just tried in single player, with Orb on the left click and Teleport on the right click. When I cast Orb (which has a casting delay), Teleport would turn red for about a second, during which I cannot cast it :(. I switched to Lightning, and Teleport did not turn red when I cast Lightning. I have no idea why it happens, most people think it's a bug.


But not nearly as easily. The only characters I can quickly see capable of doing it so easily are asns with MB, wind druids, and perhaps a zealot with good ar, or wolf.
Charge = 1 to 3 hit kill.
Bone Spear = stun
Bone Spirit = keep running or die
Bone Prison = have good life or quick reflexes or die
Dragon Flight + WW = open wounds activated
WW = lots of damage
Rabies/Plague Javelin = you're at 1 unless you wear tons of PDR and PR

The list can go on and on.


Most other duelers take a lot more than 10 hits to kill an ES sorc. As far as making things fair, perhaps some league could be formed where your absorb is limited depending on your character. Though this would make things complicated, I suppose it would make things more "fair." Personally I'm not a big fan of that kind of stuff, but it would work for those picky ones.
See Euro-PvP :P. And, in most cases, they allow only 1 absorb. Besides, ES sorcs have issues with elemental damage draining all of their mana, and ES does not guard against Poison or OW.

[Module88]

800 per shard isn't so bad, considering that Blizzard has a 1.8 second cooldown time and can be difficult to aim. My calculations show how you can get 350% CR. Just keep a few extra charms around if they have more -CR items. Or, you could accept Blizzard (and maybe Orb) as the exception to the 1 absorb rule.

I wouldn't have even bothered to calculate that. Of course it's possible. 800 per shard compared to 200 per melee attack is a huge difference. Like I said, if you really want to moan and groan about being absorbed or negated because you have an elemental attack, make a league that limits absorb to certain characters. For instance, if you have a necro doing 800 per spear, only allow one absorb (or whatever is necessary) to allow the sorc to do that amount of damage per shard. For melee chars doing 200, allow them more absorb. But again, I'm not in favor of making things that complicated.


I just tried in single player, with Orb on the left click and Teleport on the right click. When I cast Orb (which has a casting delay), Teleport would turn red for about a second, during which I cannot cast it :(. I switched to Lightning, and Teleport did not turn red when I cast Lightning. I have no idea why it happens, most people think it's a bug.

I never had a problem with it, and in some thread a while ago there was a debate concerning that. Both sides were split about 50/50, so it may be a computer issue or something.


Charge = 1 to 3 hit kill.
Bone Spear = stun
Bone Spirit = keep running or die
Bone Prison = have good life or quick reflexes or die
Dragon Flight + WW = open wounds activated
WW = lots of damage
Rabies/Plague Javelin = you're at 1 unless you wear tons of PDR and PR

The list can go on and on.

Charge- isn't complete stunlock, you can escape it
Bone Spear- you have to get hit a lot to go into stun animation, and you can get out of it
Spirit- Escapable with reasonable FHR, since they travel in lines (if the target runs directly away)
Prison- No stunlock at all
DF+ww- little stunlock without MB
WW- little stunlock
Rabies/PJ- Almost no stunlock

[Zelc]

I wouldn't have even bothered to calculate that. Of course it's possible. 800 per shard compared to 200 per melee attack is a huge difference. Like I said, if you really want to moan and groan about being absorbed or negated because you have an elemental attack, make a league that limits absorb to certain characters. For instance, if you have a necro doing 800 per spear, only allow one absorb (or whatever is necessary) to allow the sorc to do that amount of damage per shard. For melee chars doing 200, allow them more absorb. But again, I'm not in favor of making things that complicated.
Sure, then I'll make a melee character that does 200 damage, but is immune to all elemental damage. We've already shown that elemental damage can be negated no matter how many one invests in. It's not balanced that many characters will do ZERO or DOUBLE DIGIT damage with even two absorbs.


I never had a problem with it, and in some thread a while ago there was a debate concerning that. Both sides were split about 50/50, so it may be a computer issue or something.
That's really odd...


Charge- isn't complete stunlock, you can escape it
Yes, but after one or two, you're dead. Additionally, it's really difficult to avoid it.


Bone Spear- you have to get hit a lot to go into stun animation, and you can get out of it
Bone Spear is exactly the same as Fireball.


Spirit- Escapable with reasonable FHR, since they travel in lines (if the target runs directly away)
True, but like I said, it forces someone to keep moving. Most characters cannot attack when moving around.


Prison- No stunlock at all
It freezes the prisoned character in place, simulating stunlock.


DF+ww- little stunlock without MB
It's instant -600 HP due to open wounds, and then some for the real damage.


WW- little stunlock
Yea, but then you're dead...


Rabies/PJ- Almost no stunlock
1 HP

My point with these examples is to show that there is very little leeway in dueling, and getting hit with any of these is bad.

[Module88]

Sure, then I'll make a melee character that does 200 damage, but is immune to all elemental damage. We've already shown that elemental damage can be negated no matter how many one invests in. It's not balanced that many characters will do ZERO or DOUBLE DIGIT damage with even two absorbs.

That's a shame. But again, if you make an elemental character, it's up to you to deal with it's weaknesses. If you can't you can't. There's not much you can do about it.


True, but like I said, it forces someone to keep moving. Most characters cannot attack when moving around.

And forces the other guy to stand still (using your last sentence to defend that). A moving opponent as a much greater advantage than a standing one.


It freezes the prisoned character in place, simulating stunlock.

"Simulating?" There is a HUGE difference between being trapped and able to attack and move than being trapped and unable to do anything.

The primary topic was stunlock. If it doesn't stunlock (like I mentioned) you can't use it to argue my point, or yours for that matter.

[syphon45]

Rabies/PJ- Almost no stunlock

1 HP
Rabies kills, unlike other kinds of poison damage.

[Zelc]

That's a shame. But again, if you make an elemental character, it's up to you to deal with it's weaknesses. If you can't you can't. There's not much you can do about it.

Unfortunately, unlimited absorb would not create a weakness like Hammerdins having problems hitting people who attack from a distance. It creates a weakness that says that elemental attackers do ZERO damage to ALL other players. That's a hell of a weakness. This has problems for game balance, as defined by Sirlin, as well as the fun of dueling.

From "Game Balance, Part 1" on www.sirlin.net:

The first lesson is that “variety” and “balance” are inversely proportional; the more you have of one, the less you're likely to have of the other. Both sides in chess have identical pieces, and the only difference between the black side and white side is that white goes first. Street Fighter would be much more balanced if we just removed all the characters except Ryu. Quake is fairly “balanced” since each player has the same “moves” (or ability to acquire weapons and armor) as any other player. The different spawn points do introduce some “imbalance” though. The trick is to introduce variety, yet keep a reasonable level of balance. And it’s quite a trick, indeed.

What I’ve just described is a very narrow way of thinking about this mysterious concept of “balance.” After all, if the only way to dominate a Quake match were to use the rocket launcher, then how balanced a game would that be? Even if all players had equal access to the rocket launcher, it would be hard to call a game so skewed towards one thing “balanced.” We need a definition of balance if we are to going to talk about it. Let’s give that a shot.

A multiplayer game is balanced if a reasonably large number of options available to the player are viable—especially, but not limited to, during high-level play by expert players.

That was quite a mouthful. It basically means that game doesn’t degenerate down to a very small number of real options. This is a pretty broad definition since it encompasses the concept of “brokenness” as well. If, in chess, only pawns were used in tournament play (if pawns were so good as to be “broken”), I would say the game lacks balance, even though both players start with the same pieces. Another point of contention might be my use of the phrase “large number” rather than “large percentage” of viable options.

With this in mind, let's look at the effects of unlimited absorb. Since about 50% of all dueler builds are elemental based (ballpark figure), there goes 50% of the dueler builds. What we have left are Bowazons, other bow users, melee, Wind Druids, Necromancers, and Hammerdins. Looking at high level play, there's not much variety left in dueling classes if unlimited absorb is allowed. A lack of variety will result in duels against the same classes over and over, quickly dulling the game.

If there were a way to become immune to physical damage, should it be allowed in PvP? What about a way to become immune to magic damage? Unlimited absorb means all elemental damage deal 0 damage, and is thus no different from any of the above.

Remember, Blizzard does not balance Diablo 2 for PvP. We must, therefore, balance it ourselves.


And forces the other guy to stand still (using your last sentence to defend that). A moving opponent as a much greater advantage than a standing one.
Of course, standing still isn't such a big disadvantage when your opponent has problems attacking you. Running at the Necromancer might mean eating several spirits in the face, which might stun and lead to more spirits hitting him. That generally equals death. Of course, against ranged characters, it's different, but there's no rule against the Necromancer doing something like shoot run shoot run.


"Simulating?" There is a HUGE difference between being trapped and able to attack and move than being trapped and unable to do anything.
Not really, when the opponent has many Bone Spirits chasing him and when the Necromancer can use the frames that his opponent spends attacking the prison to launch spears at the immobile target.


The primary topic was stunlock. If it doesn't stunlock (like I mentioned) you can't use it to argue my point, or yours for that matter.
OK, sure. I'm not going to argue stunlock. I'll argue how much margin for error you get when facing that skill.

1) Stunlock is effectively a margin for error argument. It basically states that if you get hit, you either have enough faster hit recovery to break out of it, or you die. The margin for error would be that you must not get hit when your opponent can take advantage of your stun to land more attacks that stun you before you can get away.

2) Charge = 1 to 3 hit kill. Margin for error? You better kill your opponent or make yourself inaccessible to your opponent, or you die. How is that any different from saying that one must not get hit by Fireball because one'll get stunlocked and die? Heck, Charge even does more damage than Fireball if the victim is wearing resists.

3) WW = you are dead in 1 to 3 hits. Margin for error? You better not get in WW range, or you die.

4) Rabies/Plague Javelin = you're down to 1 HP or 0 in case of Rabies. The Amazon may also be using Guided Arrow on the switch. Margin for error? Don't get hit by the poison, and if you do, hope that you have enough resists or that you can kill your opponent fast enough, or you die.

Stunlock doesn't mean a thing. I can stunlock someone with Mind Blast all day long, but if I don't have something to back that up, I'm NOT going to win.


One more thing: I dare anyone to name a reason why duelers should NOT be limited to one absorb, except maybe in the cases of Orb and Blizzard. I've shown that one can easily survive multiple hits of an elemental attack just by wearing resists, maybe in conjunction with a small amount of +max resist. Why should we not allow elemental duelers to compete?

[Module88]

With this in mind, let's look at the effects of unlimited absorb. Since about 50% of all dueler builds are elemental based (ballpark figure), there goes 50% of the dueler builds. What we have left are Bowazons, other bow users, melee, Wind Druids, Necromancers, and Hammerdins. Looking at high level play, there's not much variety left in dueling classes if unlimited absorb is allowed. A lack of variety will result in duels against the same classes over and over, quickly dulling the game.

50?!?!?!?! That's a GREATLY overexaggerated figure.


If there were a way to become immune to physical damage, should it be allowed in PvP? What about a way to become immune to magic damage? Unlimited absorb means all elemental damage deal 0 damage, and is thus no different from any of the above.

Do you want to know why Bliz didn't do that? It would imbalance PVM. I'm immune to physical and absorb everything. Hahahah, no one can kill me! And the rest of us are like so: ... ... ... Also, a lot more builds are physical damage orientated (or capable). The key to the game is variation. Some builds work better than others. If you want to make things all fair, only allow one class. But that would get boring wouldn't it? The fact is, elemental characters are at a disadvantage against other characters properly equipped. That's just the way it is.


Of course, standing still isn't such a big disadvantage when your opponent has problems attacking you. Running at the Necromancer might mean eating several spirits in the face, which might stun and lead to more spirits hitting him. That generally equals death. Of course, against ranged characters, it's different, but there's no rule against the Necromancer doing something like shoot run shoot run.

Or he teleports in your face and hammers you. =/


Not really, when the opponent has many Bone Spirits chasing him and when the Necromancer can use the frames that his opponent spends attacking the prison to launch spears at the immobile target.

Unless he tornadoes/charges/teleports/leaps/breaks down the wall. It is possible to do (depending on the range) and still avoid getting hit. I'm not saying it's easy, but it is possible.


1) Stunlock is effectively a margin for error argument. It basically states that if you get hit, you either have enough faster hit recovery to break out of it, or you die. The margin for error would be that you must not get hit when your opponent can take advantage of your stun to land more attacks that stun you before you can get away.

2) Charge = 1 to 3 hit kill. Margin for error? You better kill your opponent or make yourself inaccessible to your opponent, or you die. How is that any different from saying that one must not get hit by Fireball because one'll get stunlocked and die? Heck, Charge even does more damage than Fireball if the victim is wearing resists.[QUOTE]

With charge he actually needs to get to you, get past your defense, and then your block.. Fireball can hit you about 2.5 screens away, depending on a lot of factors. Constant stunlock can only happen in a few ways, so it's not so much of a major concern.

[QUOTE]3) WW = you are dead in 1 to 3 hits. Margin for error? You better not get in WW range, or you die.

Yet it seems that few duelers run around with WW barbs 1-3 hitting characters for some reason.


4) Rabies/Plague Javelin = you're down to 1 HP or 0 in case of Rabies. The Amazon may also be using Guided Arrow on the switch. Margin for error? Don't get hit by the poison, and if you do, hope that you have enough resists or that you can kill your opponent fast enough, or you die.

Duels are won and lost by mistakes. I'm not saying there should be a lot of margin for error, but there should be more than 0.


Stunlock doesn't mean a thing. I can stunlock someone with Mind Blast all day long, but if I don't have something to back that up, I'm NOT going to win.

MB does physical damage. :)


One more thing: I dare anyone to name a reason why duelers should NOT be limited to one absorb, except maybe in the cases of Orb and Blizzard. I've shown that one can easily survive multiple hits of an elemental attack just by wearing resists, maybe in conjunction with a small amount of +max resist. Why should we not allow elemental duelers to compete?

Why should we not allow meleemancers to compete? They generally get demolished by other melee classes. If you are going to take the arguement about absorb and elemental characters, you sure as hell better be able to defend other classes that aren't effective at dueling either. Why it shouldn't be limited to one? Some other attacks, besides mentioned, can do a LOT of damage. I'd say two, depending on the skill being used. But again, more complications.

[Joe_smith]

if u want a duel don't over absorb if u just wanna kill the other person or people then do it. simple as that i dont' see why u guys are arguing back and forth. somestimes a small amount of + max res or absorb is needed to make certain match ups more balanced and necros shouldn't need to absorb.

[LordDrift]

I think Absorb or anything that makes a character build useless is bad mannered. They made those skills for a reason, and if you absorb it then midas well go back to the white ring days, makes almost all casters utterly useless

[Absolute-Fire]

i can accept reasonable absorb like 85 max or an absorb ring with no other max res gear.
think about it~~~ what is the point of duel if you can't kill each other or only you can kill them and they can't... it is meanless

[UserMathias]

To the guy whose grand total of cold resist comes to -10%. Check out my math, this is what my future pvp char will have against them rotten blizzard sorcs.

'ThulThulThulThul' Body Armor = 120%
Storm Um'ed = 82%
Hoto = lets take 35% average
Mara = 30%
Perfect res annihilus = 20%
9*Charms ~ 95%
Anya quests = 30%
Um'ed Shako = 22%
2 ravens
Snowclash (for the increase max resist)

Total = 435


vs. lvl 41 cold mastery -220%, hell penalty, and 4 perfect facets you have:

95% xD


Alternatively:

4 Sapphire monarch = 180
Hoto = 35
Um'ed Shako = 22
Anya quests = 30
Mara = 30
Annihilus = 20
Cold res sc's ` 95
Snowclash
2 ravens

Why not the 4 thul armor? replace with enigma so u can tele to em :yep:

Total = 412
Minus 340

= 72% and teleport

Youre likely to get more then 72%, coz not every blizzard sorc is going to have 4 perfect facets ;)


*this is assuming she has an occu, shako, lidless, and ormus. Not gonna consider Death shard coz i play nl. :point: <- why doesn't this work?

[Zelc]

50?!?!?!?! That's a GREATLY overexaggerated figure.
Amazon:
Bow
Charged Strike
Jab/Fend/Impale
Poison Javelin
Lightning Fury/Lightning Bolt

Total: 2 Physical, 2 Elemental, 1 Poison

Assassin:
Trapper
WW/Kicks

Total: 2 Physical, 2 Elemental

Barbarian:
WW
Frenzy
Concentrate/Berserk
Throw

Total: 4 Physical

Necromancer:
Bone
Poison
Melee
Summon

Total: 1 Physical, 1 Magical, 2 Poison

Paladin:
Zeal
Smite
Charge
Blessed Hammer
FOH

Total: 3 Physical, 1 Elemental, 1 Magical

Sorceress:
Orb
Blizzard
Enchant
Fireball
Lightning

Total: 5 Elemental

Druid:
Fury
Rabies
Fire
Wind
Fire Claws
Maul

Total: 3 Physical, 2 Elemental, 1 Poison

Totals: 15 Physical, 12 Elemental, 2 Magical, 4 Poison

Stuff that can't be fully resisted: 17
Stuff that can be absorbed: 12
Stuff that can be %PDR'd to nothing: 4

If you count overusing %PDR as absorb, there're 16 out of 33 attacks that'll be invalidated with the usage of unlimited absorb. That's almost half. If poison is not counted, there's 12 out of 33, or slightly more than one-third.


Do you want to know why Bliz didn't do that? It would imbalance PVM. I'm immune to physical and absorb everything. Hahahah, no one can kill me! And the rest of us are like so: ... ... ... Also, a lot more builds are physical damage orientated (or capable). The key to the game is variation. Some builds work better than others. If you want to make things all fair, only allow one class. But that would get boring wouldn't it? The fact is, elemental characters are at a disadvantage against other characters properly equipped. That's just the way it is.
1) What if there was no absorb, but instead, immune to physical items?
2) Why should elemental characters be unplayable when a simple rule is all that's needed to make them playable? You said variety is good, why not allow elemental characters to be played?


Or he teleports in your face and hammers you. =/
Ookay, that really shows nothing except for the fact that one gets little margin for error against Hammerdins.


Unless he tornadoes/charges/teleports/leaps/breaks down the wall. It is possible to do (depending on the range) and still avoid getting hit. I'm not saying it's easy, but it is possible.
Tornado works, Teleport works, the rest mean either VERY slow movement (leap), or staying in place to kill the wall (charge/breaking down the wall). The Necromancer can easily spear the people trying to break down the wall (or IM them, which is even worse), or set up a field of spirits for the leaping Barbarian.


With charge he actually needs to get to you, get past your defense, and then your block.. Fireball can hit you about 2.5 screens away, depending on a lot of factors. Constant stunlock can only happen in a few ways, so it's not so much of a major concern.
How accurate is a Fireball from 2.5 screens away? Chances are, it'll be one Fireball, not a series of them. Charge moves incredibly fast (and thus avoids many missile attacks), and even if it's blocked, you'll be in melee range. Zeal/Smite if you stand still, Charge if you move, and you're dead.


Duels are won and lost by mistakes. I'm not saying there should be a lot of margin for error, but there should be more than 0.
Unlimited absorb: infinite margin for error.
Limited absorb (1 source): 2-5+ hits.


MB does physical damage. :)
It deals like 30 to 50 PvP damage in the best of circumstances, and it has a mana cost. Good luck spamming that enough to kill someone without them breaking out of it.


Why should we not allow meleemancers to compete? They generally get demolished by other melee classes. If you are going to take the arguement about absorb and elemental characters, you sure as hell better be able to defend other classes that aren't effective at dueling either. Why it shouldn't be limited to one? Some other attacks, besides mentioned, can do a LOT of damage. I'd say two, depending on the skill being used. But again, more complications.
They can compete. Poison dagger deals tons of damage, and they'll generally have Teleport for the quick in-and-out. I'm not saying they're the best or anything, but they're better than nothing. Besides, melee attacks is NEVER a strength for the Necromancer class. On the other hand, unlimited absorb means elemental attackers have NOTHING. Most of these elemental attacks will be the class's primary or secondary strengths.

Additionally, there's very little one can do to allow meleemancers to compete. What reasonable, easy to understand, and easy to follow rules can we possibly set that would allow them to compete? Attempting to limit damage when dueling them has some serious problems, as many characters may not even have a decent lower damage attack. On the other hand, allowing elemental classes to be viable is simple: limit of 1 absorb per element.

So, I repeat my challenge.

One more thing: I dare anyone to name a reason why duelers should NOT be limited to one absorb, except maybe in the cases of Orb and Blizzard. I've shown that one can easily survive multiple hits of an elemental attack just by wearing resists, maybe in conjunction with a small amount of +max resist. Why should we not allow elemental duelers to compete?

UserMathias: what's the point? What'd be the point of even dueling cold sorceresses then? You'd just win. Fun doesn't come from mindlessly bashing people. It comes from the thrill of cheating death, or winning a close competition. Try wearing enough to nullify their Cold Mastery and one absorb. Then, when you win, you can truly claim an accomplishment.

[UserMathias]

UserMathias: what's the point? What'd be the point of even dueling cold sorceresses then? You'd just win. Fun doesn't come from mindlessly bashing people. It comes from the thrill of cheating death, or winning a close competition. Try wearing enough to nullify their Cold Mastery and one absorb. Then, when you win, you can truly claim an accomplishment.

O_O I like that. Really, you've convinced me. Considering I'm gonna play pvp as a challenge, why deprive myself of the challenge?

heh... Well I'll read the rest in the morning. :sleep:

[Module88]

Amazon:
Bow
Charged Strike
Jab/Fend/Impale
Poison Javelin
Lightning Fury/Lightning Bolt

Total: 2 Physical, 2 Elemental, 1 Poison

Lighting based as they are, they deal a good chunk of physical damage as well. As such, negating their lightning doesn't negate a good portion of their damage.


Assassin:
Trapper
WW/Kicks

Total: 2 Physical, 2 Elemental

Two elemental?



Druid:
Fury
Rabies
Fire
Wind
Fire Claws
Maul

Total: 3 Physical, 2 Elemental, 1 Poison

I've never seen a pure fire elemental druid, and if you are talking about fire claws, that's already mentioned.


If you count overusing %PDR as absorb, there're 16 out of 33 attacks that'll be invalidated with the usage of unlimited absorb. That's almost half. If poison is not counted, there's 12 out of 33, or slightly more than one-third.

Most of the elemental attacks you mentioned have a physical component. Therefore, even with PDR and Resistance, you will still be able to do damage to your opponent. No, it won't be 1k or something like that, but like most melee characters, it takes a lot of hits to kill another opponent.



1) What if there was no absorb, but instead, immune to physical items?

There's a huge difference between being immune to some elemental attacks (mostly the sorceress) and being immune to ALL physical attacks.


2) Why should elemental characters be unplayable when a simple rule is all that's needed to make them playable? You said variety is good, why not allow elemental characters to be played?

Now who said they should be unplayable? :scratch:


Tornado works, Teleport works, the rest mean either VERY slow movement (leap), or staying in place to kill the wall (charge/breaking down the wall). The Necromancer can easily spear the people trying to break down the wall (or IM them, which is even worse), or set up a field of spirits for the leaping Barbarian.

Still, while in midair, you can't be hit, and with a low level leap, you'll be on the ground in about a second. A good charge will break right through the wall with just a fraction of a second of slowing down. IM does almost nothing. I'd rather get IM'ed than speared any day. If the necro is going to fire spirits at the leaping barb, he'd have to be close before the barb could escape again, since a level say 5 leap only takes so long.



How accurate is a Fireball from 2.5 screens away? Chances are, it'll be one Fireball, not a series of them. Charge moves incredibly fast (and thus avoids many missile attacks), and even if it's blocked, you'll be in melee range. Zeal/Smite if you stand still, Charge if you move, and you're dead.

Chances are one? Ever see fireball sorc's play? Long range pummeling. Not one accurate shot or just a couple accurate ones, especially at long range. Since they have the advantage at longer ranges, it makes sense they would try to stay at longer ranges. How does charge avoid many missile attacks? I mean if you spam, you are bound to hit him sometime, and if he charges straight at you, it's kind of hard to miss. Smite takes a while to kill an opponent with even reasonable life and dr, and zeal has to get past your defense and block (or dodge for an amazon) every swing to hit.


They can compete. Poison dagger deals tons of damage, and they'll generally have Teleport for the quick in-and-out. I'm not saying they're the best or anything, but they're better than nothing. Besides, melee attacks is NEVER a strength for the Necromancer class. On the other hand, unlimited absorb means elemental attackers have NOTHING. Most of these elemental attacks will be the class's primary or secondary strengths.

Anything is better than nothing. Necromancers also have poor ar and slow attack speed, so it's likely you'll never, or rarely, get a hit with PD. Again, I don't think I said it was ok for unlimited absorb all the time. If I did, I apologize.


Additionally, there's very little one can do to allow meleemancers to compete. What reasonable, easy to understand, and easy to follow rules can we possibly set that would allow them to compete? Attempting to limit damage when dueling them has some serious problems, as many characters may not even have a decent lower damage attack. On the other hand, allowing elemental classes to be viable is simple: limit of 1 absorb per element.

No shields for the other guys?



UserMathias: what's the point? What'd be the point of even dueling cold sorceresses then? You'd just win. Fun doesn't come from mindlessly bashing people. It comes from the thrill of cheating death, or winning a close competition. Try wearing enough to nullify their Cold Mastery and one absorb. Then, when you win, you can truly claim an accomplishment.

Yet those *******'s who townguard and body guard seem to think so. (Which I might add, is a good chunk of them)

[Zelc]

Lighting based as they are, they deal a good chunk of physical damage as well. As such, negating their lightning doesn't negate a good portion of their damage.
I use 450% ED Matriarchal Javelins on Open, and I get about a 2k damage component on the Lightning Fury. Even Ethereal Titan's will only have about half of that, and 200 damage per hit isn't good. And Lightning Bolt converts all physical damage to lightning.


Two elemental?
Fire and Lightning. But sure, we could count it as one. Nullifiable attacks: 15


I've never seen a pure fire elemental druid, and if you are talking about fire claws, that's already mentioned.
Hmm... ok, so that's 14 nullifiable attacks, or roughly 45% of all attacks.


Most of the elemental attacks you mentioned have a physical component. Therefore, even with PDR and Resistance, you will still be able to do damage to your opponent. No, it won't be 1k or something like that, but like most melee characters, it takes a lot of hits to kill another opponent.
But not like this! Even smite, one of the lowest damage melee attacks, deals around 3k. Investing in an elemental attack becomes a hindrance, and that will stifle variability.


There's a huge difference between being immune to some elemental attacks (mostly the sorceress) and being immune to ALL physical attacks.
Maybe in team games. However, I don't see how there's any difference in a 1v1. In both instances, a character's attacks are nullified.


Still, while in midair, you can't be hit, and with a low level leap, you'll be on the ground in about a second. A good charge will break right through the wall with just a fraction of a second of slowing down. IM does almost nothing. I'd rather get IM'ed than speared any day. If the necro is going to fire spirits at the leaping barb, he'd have to be close before the barb could escape again, since a level say 5 leap only takes so long.
1) But leap will still take a second, which is all the Necromancer needs to get some spells ready for the landing.
2) Charge needs range, and Bone Prison doesn't allow for the range. The first prison may get killed instantly, but the second will probably beat out the swing and trap you.
3) IMing minions is generally a bad idea, since you do 10x more damage to them. I've killed barbarians by IMing them and watching them Whirlwind through my skeletons, although there are fewer bone prisons.


Chances are one? Ever see fireball sorc's play? Long range pummeling. Not one accurate shot or just a couple accurate ones, especially at long range. Since they have the advantage at longer ranges, it makes sense they would try to stay at longer ranges.
That's some skilled playing if they can accurately hit moving targets at the edge/off of their screen.


How does charge avoid many missile attacks? I mean if you spam, you are bound to hit him sometime, and if he charges straight at you, it's kind of hard to miss.
Charge in a circle around the ranged attacker, getting closer all the time. Then, charge in.


Smite takes a while to kill an opponent with even reasonable life and dr, and zeal has to get past your defense and block (or dodge for an amazon) every swing to hit.
Smite stuns, and Zeal will put you into block/hit recovery. Besides, I really haven't seen a ranged character who's defense Angelics cannot overcome.


Anything is better than nothing. Necromancers also have poor ar and slow attack speed, so it's likely you'll never, or rarely, get a hit with PD.
Use Fleshripper (-20) and some IAS. Level 30 PD also gives +610% to AR. Besides, it's still better than doing 0 damage.


Again, I don't think I said it was ok for unlimited absorb all the time. If I did, I apologize.
What do you advocate?


No shields for the other guys?
Doesn't solve the "poor ar." Doesn't solve the "slow attack speed." Invalidates some builds, as some characters need the shield for +stats, and dueling meleemancers isn't your decision in tournaments, not like not using oskills is. Unworkable in team duels.


Yet those *******'s who townguard and body guard seem to think so. (Which I might add, is a good chunk of them)
Yea, another reason I'm not going to duel on Bnet for a good long while.

And my challenge still stands.

[sbc84]

Wowwww!

Hey Zelc. Tag, you are in. I'm out.

[syphon45]

I've never seen a pure fire elemental druid, and if you are talking about fire claws, that's already mentioned.
There are a few fire elemental druids around, it's just not really that common of a build for pvp because a lot of poeple would rather just use wind.

[Module88]

I use 450% ED Matriarchal Javelins on Open, and I get about a 2k damage component on the Lightning Fury. Even Ethereal Titan's will only have about half of that, and 200 damage per hit isn't good. And Lightning Bolt converts all physical damage to lightning.

Well smite doesn't deal that great damage either, but it is viable. Though it is unblockable, hopefully you have some kind of secondary attack, or you deserve to get demolished by those who use total absorb. Fohadins can't really complain either. Though I'm not saying it's right, don't whine about it if you know you have it coming.


Hmm... ok, so that's 14 nullifiable attacks, or roughly 45% of all attacks.

Again, most of those will still do damage. No, not 1000 or above, but they certainly won't heal from it.


But not like this! Even smite, one of the lowest damage melee attacks, deals around 3k. Investing in an elemental attack becomes a hindrance, and that will stifle variability.

With smite, at least you have to be in melee range, so it's somewhat even. Ranged attacks should always to less than melee attacks. More danger should mean more damage.


Maybe in team games. However, I don't see how there's any difference in a 1v1. In both instances, a character's attacks are nullified.

In pub's, you likely won't get a one on one. In private games, I'd imagine there would be absorb restrictions already in place.


1) But leap will still take a second, which is all the Necromancer needs to get some spells ready for the landing.
2) Charge needs range, and Bone Prison doesn't allow for the range. The first prison may get killed instantly, but the second will probably beat out the swing and trap you.
3) IMing minions is generally a bad idea, since you do 10x more damage to them. I've killed barbarians by IMing them and watching them Whirlwind through my skeletons, although there are fewer bone prisons.

The attacks also have to reach the barbarian.

Shift charge still works, bone prison offers a little space to manuever.

IM does almost no damage in 1.1


That's some skilled playing if they can accurately hit moving targets at the edge/off of their screen.

I didn't say they were accurate. They aren't accurate at all. But there are a lot of them.


Charge in a circle around the ranged attacker, getting closer all the time. Then, charge in.

Unless of course, he predicts it, and well, nails you.


Smite stuns, and Zeal will put you into block/hit recovery. Besides, I really haven't seen a ranged character who's defense Angelics cannot overcome.

Every attack that deals 1/12 of a players life puts you into FHR. Zeal only does so if it gets past your defense and block, and you can get away from it.


What do you advocate?

Dueling where the rules are set and agreed upon by the individual players before the duel.


Doesn't solve the "poor ar." Doesn't solve the "slow attack speed." Invalidates some builds, as some characters need the shield for +stats, and dueling meleemancers isn't your decision in tournaments, not like not using oskills is. Unworkable in team duels.

Well, if they can't block 75% of your attacks, and lose defense from it, I'd say that it offers a much more even playing field. Again, it would be against meleemancers/sorc's only I suppose, or some other builds.


And my challenge still stands.

I still wonder why. But anyhow, I thank you for keeping this discussion civil. Often people will get very defensive and shoot insults. At least this discussion is better than most I've seen.

[D34D]

Absorb isnt that big a problem in reality as your dueling in pubbie games. There will be, most of the time, a barb, necro, blizzard sorc, maybe a fire sorc or a windy druid. You go all out to resist the blizz sorc and see how fast the barb or the foh pally mess you up. When theres a necro and a bowzon I like to cast Burst of Speed instead of fade, cant do that with a hard hitting sorc in the game. There's too many variables in pubbie games for absorb to be that big a problem to anyone. If your fire sorc is badly absorbed then chances are next game you go in they'll all be trying to absorb the foh pally and your fire will give the smack down.
If your not in pubbies then you probably have rules and only one absorb item etc. If your not in pubbies and your not in something like clan honor, then your single player and you should punnish yourself. :innocent:

[De4dEyE]

Teheh. The only time I'll absorb is if someone is NKing someone with traps or blizzard/meteor. And if there is a FoH pally in the game [A lot of them start with the 'lol noob' thing when they kill you], I head to the light absorb. Aside from that, I don't absorb. These are pubs, of course. =]

[GhostlyDragon]

a little absorb is ok but a lot of absorb is cheap like 2 wisp projectors, tgods, blackhorns, maybe lightsabre, and if your an foher the shield and helmet for resists.
they just say that your attacks suck.

[Zelc]

Dueling where the rules are set and agreed upon by the individual players before the duel.
The issue is what these rules should do with absorb. What do you think these rules should say about absorb?


Well smite doesn't deal that great damage either, but it is viable. Though it is unblockable, hopefully you have some kind of secondary attack, or you deserve to get demolished by those who use total absorb.
Basically, that's equivalent to saying "if you choose to use one of 45% of PvP skills, you deserve to do 0 damage." I've already shown how some attacks require synergies in order to be effective.


Fohadins can't really complain either. Though I'm not saying it's right, don't whine about it if you know you have it coming.
This same argument would legitimize the use of 1.09 slow. Like total absorb, you can't do a thing to stop it, it's broken, and it's not right, but one can expect it if one duels in pubbies. Wasn't 1.09 slow considered BM?


Again, most of those will still do damage. No, not 1000 or above, but they certainly won't heal from it.
The problem is, PvP is not PvM. One MUST be able to do a lot of damage over a short period of time. If you don't, you'll be outclassed by everything. And come on, no one's going to die because you hit him for 200 per hit when it's slow, blockable, and/or requires AR.


With smite, at least you have to be in melee range, so it's somewhat even. Ranged attacks should always to less than melee attacks. More danger should mean more damage.
You also have to aim the javelins, meaning it's definately not an auto-hit at range. If someone runs straight at you, it's their lack of skill that's allowing you to win.


In pub's, you likely won't get a one on one. In private games, I'd imagine there would be absorb restrictions already in place.
I'm discussing whether absorb should be restricted or not. Since you really can't do a thing about pubbies, this argument really only applies to private duels.


The attacks also have to reach the barbarian.
If the Barbarian is prisoned, he'll be on the screen. A few spears should reach him fairly quickly.


Shift charge still works, bone prison offers a little space to manuever.
Lemme try test that out. One other thing: bone prison often creates some lag, meaning your command to charge may not reach the host before the prisons have totally immobilized you.


IM does almost no damage in 1.1
Maybe not when you hit players, because damage becomes 1/6, but when you hit a minion, you'll do 10x the damage, and therefore take 10x or same damage.


I didn't say they were accurate. They aren't accurate at all. But there are a lot of them.
Yes, and they'll be spammed over an arc. That means that if you get hit by one, you probably won't get hit by the others. And if the incoming character is running straight at the sorceress, he deserves to lose.


Unless of course, he predicts it, and well, nails you.
Charge moves so incredibly fast that it's VERY difficult to lead it with projectiles that don't home in.


Every attack that deals 1/12 of a players life puts you into FHR. Zeal only does so if it gets past your defense and block, and you can get away from it.
If you block, you'll be put into block recovery. Additionally, most ranged characters lack a great deal of defense. If the character's Zeal cannot get past a ranged character's defense, it most certainly would not be able to get past a melee character's defense, meaning the character is a suboptimal build of a Zealot.


Well, if they can't block 75% of your attacks, and lose defense from it, I'd say that it offers a much more even playing field. Again, it would be against meleemancers/sorc's only I suppose, or some other builds.
There's still the problems of team dueling. What if one team is composed of Meleemancer + V/C? Additionally, we'd have problems defining a Meleemancer. What if he casts Poison Nova in addition to poking away with his Poison Dagger? What if he maxed Teeth? These are not issues with


I still wonder why.
That really doesn't answer my challenge :(. Come on, give me a reason why a 1 absorb limit, except vs. Blizzard and Orb, would unbalance dueling.

[Module88]

The issue is what these rules should do with absorb. What do you think these rules should say about absorb?

If it's pubby, anything goes, so long as it's one on one. If it's private, it would depend on the rules set by the group. Since temple doesn't really face that problem, I've never had to deal with it. But assuming I made a private room up, then it would be according to what I said earlier, obviously, with more specificity.


Basically, that's equivalent to saying "if you choose to use one of 45% of PvP skills, you deserve to do 0 damage." I've already shown how some attacks require synergies in order to be effective.

Again, they aren't completely negated. You will STILL do damage. If you've ever dueled a lightning based pvp amazon, you would know that it is pretty hard to get them to zero damage (at least I haven't done it) with tgods and 95% resistance. they still do a good chunk of dmg. Besides blackhorn, other absorb items reduce dmg by a percentage. Still, 95% resistance and tgods made her do enough damage to kill me a good chunk of times.


This same argument would legitimize the use of 1.09 slow. Like total absorb, you can't do a thing to stop it, it's broken, and it's not right, but one can expect it if one duels in pubbies. Wasn't 1.09 slow considered BM?

Slow in both patches is BM. But the problem with your theory is, fohadins know, ok, I'm making a pure lightning character. If I get absorbed (even with one item like tgods) I'm screwed. Just one absorb and 95% stacked resists is enough to nullify enough damage so that it takes them forever to kill you. How do you plan for slow? It affects attack speed (which seems to be the worst part) and movement speed. Even if you use enigma, your IAS is still greatly reduced. Slow is against dueling rules. One absorb isn't, yet it is enough to nullify the attack.


The problem is, PvP is not PvM. One MUST be able to do a lot of damage over a short period of time. If you don't, you'll be outclassed by everything. And come on, no one's going to die because you hit him for 200 per hit when it's slow, blockable, and/or requires AR.

Smite does about the same damage, is pretty slow, but is unblockable and requires no AR. Catch is, you have to be in melee range.


You also have to aim the javelins, meaning it's definately not an auto-hit at range. If someone runs straight at you, it's their lack of skill that's allowing you to win.

And if someone is running in circles slowly closing the distance and you can't predict/hit them, it's your lack of skill that's allowing them to win.


If the Barbarian is prisoned, he'll be on the screen. A few spears should reach him fairly quickly.

Most of the time. Still, the barb can escape with leap (and it's just a second away). Maybe he'll take a hit, maybe not. But I imagine, if the barb isn't using teleport, neither is the necro. leap on the necro. It'll make him move, and if he doesn't, zerk him down.


Lemme try test that out. One other thing: bone prison often creates some lag, meaning your command to charge may not reach the host before the prisons have totally immobilized you.

Doesn't lag me at all. It's really a problem with slower computers.


Maybe not when you hit players, because damage becomes 1/6, but when you hit a minion, you'll do 10x the damage, and therefore take 10x or same damage.

If we are talking about private games, I can't really imagine a necro having a ton of minions. I mean it is against private rules to summon things requiring a body.


Yes, and they'll be spammed over an arc. That means that if you get hit by one, you probably won't get hit by the others. And if the incoming character is running straight at the sorceress, he deserves to lose.

So how are you going to win if you are wayyy out there. So long as you are at range, you generally have a disadvantage, depending on several things.


Charge moves so incredibly fast that it's VERY difficult to lead it with projectiles that don't home in.

If you fire one projectile, I'm sure it is. So fire more than one.


If you block, you'll be put into block recovery. Additionally, most ranged characters lack a great deal of defense. If the character's Zeal cannot get past a ranged character's defense, it most certainly would not be able to get past a melee character's defense, meaning the character is a suboptimal build of a Zealot.

Zeal doesn't put you into blocklock anymore. It is possible to escape from it, if you have reasonable speed and FHR.


There's still the problems of team dueling. What if one team is composed of Meleemancer + V/C? Additionally, we'd have problems defining a Meleemancer. What if he casts Poison Nova in addition to poking away with his Poison Dagger? What if he maxed Teeth? These are not issues with

Team dueling is a whole different matter. I was talking about one on one situations. If he uses any ranged attack, it would be a hybrid, and pretty much would scratch that rule out I imagine. Besides, I'd imagine, on top of PD, a meleemancer would use curses that complement melee combat.


That really doesn't answer my challenge :(. Come on, give me a reason why a 1 absorb limit, except vs. Blizzard and Orb, would unbalance dueling.

Again, it depends on the characters. I mean if you are a zealot and are rushing a FB sorc (you have to kill her somehow, and she can teleport...), and it only takes say 5 hits to kill you, your chances of winning are almost non existent, because you are forced to do battle at short range. I say if you really want to balance dueling more (private that is, although this would probably be less fun), allow more absorb for some characters, and less for others. But again, that would make things complicated.

[Zelc]

If it's pubby, anything goes, so long as it's one on one. If it's private, it would depend on the rules set by the group. Since temple doesn't really face that problem, I've never had to deal with it. But assuming I made a private room up, then it would be according to what I said earlier, obviously, with more specificity.
Could you reiterate what you said earlier? I missed it :(.


Again, they aren't completely negated. You will STILL do damage. If you've ever dueled a lightning based pvp amazon, you would know that it is pretty hard to get them to zero damage (at least I haven't done it) with tgods and 95% resistance. they still do a good chunk of dmg. Besides blackhorn, other absorb items reduce dmg by a percentage. Still, 95% resistance and tgods made her do enough damage to kill me a good chunk of times.
They'll do a LOT less damage. They'll maybe have 1.8k max damage after the lightning damage is negated. That's 300 damage a hit, if they hit. Add a SS, and it gets worse than that. Of course, they do have jab. But even if Lightning zonz aren't affected by absorb, there are still plenty that are. Even most Fireclaw druids opt to use low damage fast swinging weapons. Most cannot hybrid Maul, as doing so would merely result in two less damaging attacks, and only one can be used at a time.


Slow in both patches is BM. But the problem with your theory is, fohadins know, ok, I'm making a pure lightning character. If I get absorbed (even with one item like tgods) I'm screwed. Just one absorb and 95% stacked resists is enough to nullify enough damage so that it takes them forever to kill you. How do you plan for slow? It affects attack speed (which seems to be the worst part) and movement speed. Even if you use enigma, your IAS is still greatly reduced. Slow is against dueling rules. One absorb isn't, yet it is enough to nullify the attack.
The point is, slow is almost impossible to win against unless your opponent is also slowed, so you must be a physical attacker (thus being able to slow your opponent). Similarly, unlimited absorb is impossible to win against if you have no source of magical/physical damage. By a simple ban on the usage of slow, we no longer have physical vs. physical duels. Similarly, a simple LIMIT of one absorb (and a cap on resists, with the option of additional +max resists that counts as an absorb) allows more than physical and magical duelers. Variety is good, and this rule, which increases variety, is simple and workable.


Smite does about the same damage, is pretty slow, but is unblockable and requires no AR. Catch is, you have to be in melee range.
Smite is NOT slow. Just use it with Fanat, and you'll easily be swinging at around 5 fpa.


And if someone is running in circles slowly closing the distance and you can't predict/hit them, it's your lack of skill that's allowing them to win.
They should be running with around 100% r/w, and they'll be zig-zagging and closing in at a fairly rapid pace. A screen isn't that big.


Most of the time. Still, the barb can escape with leap (and it's just a second away). Maybe he'll take a hit, maybe not. But I imagine, if the barb isn't using teleport, neither is the necro. leap on the necro. It'll make him move, and if he doesn't, zerk him down.
Due to leap's slow speed, all the necro has to do is back up a bit and spam Spears when the barbarian lands.


Doesn't lag me at all. It's really a problem with slower computers.
I need a better comp :(.


If we are talking about private games, I can't really imagine a necro having a ton of minions. I mean it is against private rules to summon things requiring a body.
Bone Walls are minions.


So how are you going to win if you are wayyy out there. So long as you are at range, you generally have a disadvantage, depending on several things.
You tighten your circle/zig zag constantly. You're not going to just play ring around the rosy. You're saying that melee always loses to range without massive DR/Absorb, which just isn't true.


If you fire one projectile, I'm sure it is. So fire more than one.
I'm pretty sure I can get off one Charge every projectile.


Zeal doesn't put you into blocklock anymore. It is possible to escape from it, if you have reasonable speed and FHR.
And when you're in block recovery, you can't block. That's when the hit recovery comes in.


Team dueling is a whole different matter. I was talking about one on one situations. If he uses any ranged attack, it would be a hybrid, and pretty much would scratch that rule out I imagine. Besides, I'd imagine, on top of PD, a meleemancer would use curses that complement melee combat.
A meleemancer would probably use LR to boost his damage, and invest in Poison Nova for the synergy. There's still the problem of +stats from shields, and this solution is in no way viable to allow meleemancers to team duel, and it even upsets ffa situations. Additionally, some characters never use shields, and others can just take advantage of this by wielding a 2 handed weapon for more damage.


Again, it depends on the characters. I mean if you are a zealot and are rushing a FB sorc (you have to kill her somehow, and she can teleport...), and it only takes say 5 hits to kill you, your chances of winning are almost non existent, because you are forced to do battle at short range.
Level 1 Charge is awesome for closing in on ranged chars.


I say if you really want to balance dueling more (private that is, although this would probably be less fun), allow more absorb for some characters, and less for others. But again, that would make things complicated.
Problem is, anyone allowed more than 1 absorb against a non-cold sorceress is immune to that element, and we have all the problems of loss of variety that I've pointed out. Tournaments will become a matter of luck of the draw.

If (except vs. cold sorceresses) a limit of 1 absorb does not create 1-3 hit kill situations and allows for more variety, why not?

[Module88]

Could you reiterate what you said earlier? I missed it :(.

I'm not going to say it again. I said it several times, and in case you missed them then, I said it in the last post. Look for it. -.-


They'll do a LOT less damage. They'll maybe have 1.8k max damage after the lightning damage is negated. That's 300 damage a hit, if they hit. Add a SS, and it gets worse than that. Of course, they do have jab. But even if Lightning zonz aren't affected by absorb, there are still plenty that are. Even most Fireclaw druids opt to use low damage fast swinging weapons. Most cannot hybrid Maul, as doing so would merely result in two less damaging attacks, and only one can be used at a time.

If can't hit a high percentage of the time in the first place, it doesn't make much difference. Since melee characters should be hitting a good portion of the time (and throwers of course), 300 dmg seems pretty fair, considering the zon can hit you from way over there.


The point is, slow is almost impossible to win against unless your opponent is also slowed, so you must be a physical attacker (thus being able to slow your opponent). Similarly, unlimited absorb is impossible to win against if you have no source of magical/physical damage. By a simple ban on the usage of slow, we no longer have physical vs. physical duels. Similarly, a simple LIMIT of one absorb (and a cap on resists, with the option of additional +max resists that counts as an absorb) allows more than physical and magical duelers. Variety is good, and this rule, which increases variety, is simple and workable.

A cap on resistance is crap. Absorb I can see, but resistance is resistance. Again, if you make an elemental character, then be prepared to have a good chunk of your damage reduced by resistance alone. Are you at a disadvantage? Certainly, considering PD can only be reduced by 50%. But then, most physical attacks require you to be in melee range, and it's that long range capability that tends to even things out.


Smite is NOT slow. Just use it with Fanat, and you'll easily be swinging at around 5 fpa.

6 At best. And how easy it is to get the required IAS really depends on what weapon you use.


They should be running with around 100% r/w, and they'll be zig-zagging and closing in at a fairly rapid pace. A screen isn't that big.

If he zig zags, he'll be losing distance. You can catch on to this pattern. If it's completely random, it's much harder, but use your terrain to force him into a certain postion where he can only attack from so many angles.


Due to leap's slow speed, all the necro has to do is back up a bit and spam Spears when the barbarian lands.[QUOTE]

It's only slow if you have a high level leap.

[QUOTE]Bone Walls are minions.

Try IMing a barb and have him WW through it, and see what happens.


You tighten your circle/zig zag constantly. You're not going to just play ring around the rosy. You're saying that melee always loses to range without massive DR/Absorb, which just isn't true.

When did I say melee always loses to range? I'm saying they are at a disadvantage.


I'm pretty sure I can get off one Charge every projectile.

You probably could. But it's easy to tell where you're going and the general direction to spam at.


And when you're in block recovery, you can't block. That's when the hit recovery comes in.

You could walk away from zeal in 09 with the eth bug and blocklock. What makes you think you can't do it in 1.1 without both of those? Again, he won't be hitting you every time (most of the time) and you can just run out of it. Just try it.


A meleemancer would probably use LR to boost his damage, and invest in Poison Nova for the synergy. There's still the problem of +stats from shields, and this solution is in no way viable to allow meleemancers to team duel, and it even upsets ffa situations. Additionally, some characters never use shields, and others can just take advantage of this by wielding a 2 handed weapon for more damage.

Perhaps, or decrepify, which reduces his damage, increases his physical damage, and slows his opponent all at once. Necromancers don't exactly gain a lot of AR per point, so extra stats would be helpful. Again, I am talking about one on one, not FFA. I wouldn't recommend using a MM for FFA duels... Still, the necromancer does have bone armor, and it is recastable. It helps a ton, and since the other character can't use a shield, they should be allowed a two handed weapon.


Level 1 Charge is awesome for closing in on ranged chars.

Unfortunately, it won't be enough to kill until she teleports away, pegs you, and repeats the process.


Problem is, anyone allowed more than 1 absorb against a non-cold sorceress is immune to that element, and we have all the problems of loss of variety that I've pointed out. Tournaments will become a matter of luck of the draw.

Again, I didn't include the specifics, and I'm not going to. And this would be the answer to your first question.


If (except vs. cold sorceresses) a limit of 1 absorb does not create 1-3 hit kill situations and allows for more variety, why not?

If we are going to make things fair for the sorc they better be fair for the other characters. Melee characters have to break through the blocking and ES after he even reaches the sorc (teleport). Sorcs don't have to go through the block, don't have to be in close range, and can move much faster. If it takes 5 hits for the sorc to kill the melee character at range, and 10 for the melee character, how is that fair? (Taking into account ES) This assumes in the first place, every hit lands and is not blocked or dodged.

[Zelc]

I'm not going to say it again. I said it several times, and in case you missed them then, I said it in the last post. Look for it. -.-

Again, I didn't include the specifics, and I'm not going to. And this would be the answer to your first question.
It's kind of difficult to argue against you if I don't know what you're advocating. At least give me a general idea: which types of duelers will get generally what against which types of duelers, and the exception.


If can't hit a high percentage of the time in the first place, it doesn't make much difference. Since melee characters should be hitting a good portion of the time (and throwers of course), 300 dmg seems pretty fair, considering the zon can hit you from way over there.
It's the high damage that makes the low hit rate viable.


A cap on resistance is crap. Absorb I can see, but resistance is resistance. Again, if you make an elemental character, then be prepared to have a good chunk of your damage reduced by resistance alone. Are you at a disadvantage? Certainly, considering PD can only be reduced by 50%. But then, most physical attacks require you to be in melee range, and it's that long range capability that tends to even things out.
Then why does Euro-PvP's rules, one of the most playtested dueling rulesets in existence, cap absorb? 95% resists against something is about as bad as 75% + two absorb.


6 At best. And how easy it is to get the required IAS really depends on what weapon you use.
With level 20 Fanat and a Berserker Axe, a Paladin needs 54% IAS to reach 6 FPA. 6 FPA is pretty fast.


If he zig zags, he'll be losing distance. You can catch on to this pattern. If it's completely random, it's much harder, but use your terrain to force him into a certain postion where he can only attack from so many angles.
If you stand still, he zig zags randomly. If you run, he namelocks you with a melee attack. True, you can use the terrain, but this is not foolproof, and may only get you one attack at best if he switches between two entrances.


It's only slow if you have a high level leap.
If you have a high level leap, it's slow. If you don't have a high level leap, you won't reach the necro. If you don't reach the necro, he'll have stuff ready for your landing.


Try IMing a barb and have him WW through it, and see what happens.
I'll try that ASAP.


You probably could. But it's easy to tell where you're going and the general direction to spam at.
Due to Charge's quick speed, you'll have to land the projectile pretty much at the terminus of the Charge, unless he's charging right at the projectile. If he zig zags, you won't have much of a chance of hitting him.


You could walk away from zeal in 09 with the eth bug and blocklock. What makes you think you can't do it in 1.1 without both of those? Again, he won't be hitting you every time (most of the time) and you can just run out of it. Just try it.
He will have you namelocked, and his initial Zeal will probably stun you for long enough to allow him to catch up to you when you move away.


Perhaps, or decrepify, which reduces his damage, increases his physical damage, and slows his opponent all at once. Necromancers don't exactly gain a lot of AR per point, so extra stats would be helpful. Again, I am talking about one on one, not FFA. I wouldn't recommend using a MM for FFA duels... Still, the necromancer does have bone armor, and it is recastable. It helps a ton, and since the other character can't use a shield, they should be allowed a two handed weapon.
Meleemancers don't do a great deal of physical damage. It does, however, slow his opponent down and reduce his opponent's damage. The use of a two-handed weapon can go far in lowering the impact of the loss of the shield. Oh, and no shield? GG Smiter.


Unfortunately, it won't be enough to kill until she teleports away, pegs you, and repeats the process.
Two choices.
1) Use Charge to catch up, and switch to melee when you're right next to the sorc. Should land a hit or two. Charge zig zags towards her after she teleports.
2) Play defense. The sorc will probably teleport after you. When she does, Charge to where you think she'll teleport next, and Zeal. Run away after she teleports again.


If we are going to make things fair for the sorc they better be fair for the other characters. Melee characters have to break through the blocking and ES after he even reaches the sorc (teleport). Sorcs don't have to go through the block, don't have to be in close range, and can move much faster. If it takes 5 hits for the sorc to kill the melee character at range, and 10 for the melee character, how is that fair? (Taking into account ES) This assumes in the first place, every hit lands and is not blocked or dodged.
1) Balance is not one dueler that takes 10 hits before dying against one dueler that takes an infinite number of hits before dying.
2) But you'd better balance Necromancers and Hammerdins and Windy Druids with melee first. Sorcs and other ranged elemental attackers can hold their own against the three now, but you allow unlimited resists and absorb, and it'll be those three that stand out.
3) It's really difficult to put many points into TK/ES unless you're going Orb. Orb is a cold spell, and 2 absorbs is commonly considered OK against cold sorceresses.
4) It's a LOT easier and simpler to balance the elemental rangers with the big three than elemental rangers and melee. Additionally, some elemental users ARE melee.

[Module88]

It's kind of difficult to argue against you if I don't know what you're advocating. At least give me a general idea: which types of duelers will get generally what against which types of duelers, and the exception.

I'm not telling you again. -.-

-Melee characters can use one more absorb against ranged elemental characters.

That is what I've been saying. Now, I could be more specific and set up a bunch of different rules, because if you add enigma, this would change things, as would if you allowed other items. Then I could specify by class and build. It is complicated. -.-


It's the high damage that makes the low hit rate viable.

If you can't hit your target often, that's a character flaw. It's not anyone else's fault but your own. The idea is to get high damage and high ar. If you lack one, expect to suffer greater consequences against prepared opponents.


Then why does Euro-PvP's rules, one of the most playtested dueling rulesets in existence, cap absorb? 95% resists against something is about as bad as 75% + two absorb.

Rules vary. Go with what you play with. I'm a westie, and things are a lot different here than over there.


With level 20 Fanat and a Berserker Axe, a Paladin needs 54% IAS to reach 6 FPA. 6 FPA is pretty fast.

54 is a lot considering the gear that most smiters/v/t use, and sacrificing good mods to get the necessary IAS isn't all that appealing to most, especially when it is easy to get the necessary IAS easily with other weapons.


If you stand still, he zig zags randomly. If you run, he namelocks you with a melee attack. True, you can use the terrain, but this is not foolproof, and may only get you one attack at best if he switches between two entrances.

Teleport? -.- I was talking primarily about a sorc. Sorry if that was a bit confusing.


If you have a high level leap, it's slow. If you don't have a high level leap, you won't reach the necro. If you don't reach the necro, he'll have stuff ready for your landing.

I'd use leap to escape, and leap attack to get to the necro. =/


Due to Charge's quick speed, you'll have to land the projectile pretty much at the terminus of the Charge, unless he's charging right at the projectile. If he zig zags, you won't have much of a chance of hitting him.

Fireball does have a splash radius, so sometimes you don't need a direct hit to do damage.


He will have you namelocked, and his initial Zeal will probably stun you for long enough to allow him to catch up to you when you move away.

Again, I was talking about sorc's.


Meleemancers don't do a great deal of physical damage. It does, however, slow his opponent down and reduce his opponent's damage. The use of a two-handed weapon can go far in lowering the impact of the loss of the shield. Oh, and no shield? GG Smiter.

Charge? And remember, trying to make things perfectly fair for every class is going to make complications. You can't say, let's make things fair for the sorc, but not for others.



Two choices.
1) Use Charge to catch up, and switch to melee when you're right next to the sorc. Should land a hit or two. Charge zig zags towards her after she teleports.
2) Play defense. The sorc will probably teleport after you. When she does, Charge to where you think she'll teleport next, and Zeal. Run away after she teleports again.

If you charge her, she'll probably fire off one shot and teleport again. Because energy shield goes of mana (which can regenerate quickly), a successful charge may not do all that much damage. And considering the sorc has a long range advantage, I can't see her teleporting close enough for you to click on her name.


1) Balance is not one dueler that takes 10 hits before dying against one dueler that takes an infinite number of hits before dying.

But then I'm not advocating that either.


2) But you'd better balance Necromancers and Hammerdins and Windy Druids with melee first. Sorcs and other ranged elemental attackers can hold their own against the three now, but you allow unlimited resists and absorb, and it'll be those three that stand out.
I imagine that's only a real concern in pub, and there's not much we can do to control that. In private duels, I never advocated that, so I don't quite see where you are going.


3) It's really difficult to put many points into TK/ES unless you're going Orb. Orb is a cold spell, and 2 absorbs is commonly considered OK against cold sorceresses.

You don't need all that many if you have +skills.


4) It's a LOT easier and simpler to balance the elemental rangers with the big three than elemental rangers and melee. Additionally, some elemental users ARE melee.

Some may be, not enough. In private duels it is certainly easy to balance, but in pub, it's pretty much anything goes, and be prepared to be hit from the back by multiple opponents. Pub dueling is the ultimate test of skill. You'll never know what's coming. He can pot, call his friends, use shrines, and the like. Pub is probably the best way to get better, since you get more "bang for your buck." One duel and you end up dueling 4-6 people. Besides, they are more intense, even though most pubbers are ***holes. =/ Private duels test how good you are against one opponent, but not overall, since you know you are only dueling one opponent who likely won't break the rules.

[Joe_smith]

kinda dumb go around giving people advice about dueling and act so knowledgable when you don't even duel.

[Module88]

kinda dumb go around giving people advice about dueling and act so knowledgable when you don't even duel anymore.

I bolded it. Can't miss it.

[Zelc]

I'm not telling you again. -.-

-Melee characters can use one more absorb against ranged elemental characters.

That is what I've been saying. Now, I could be more specific and set up a bunch of different rules, because if you add enigma, this would change things, as would if you allowed other items. Then I could specify by class and build. It is complicated. -.-
This is fine. All I needed was a general idea.
However, this is not a very good idea. Unlimited absorb for melee characters will turn dueling into a game of luck of the draw. Assuming Enigma isn't allowed, if you're an elemental dueler and you run into melee, you lose. If you're melee and you run into a Hammerdin or Windy Druid, you lose. If you're a Hammerdin or a Windy Druid and you run into an elemental ranged attacker, you lose. Oh wait, you allow 95% resists for anyone, too. So if you're an elemental attacker, you always lose because you deal almost no damage. And if you're melee, you still lose to Hammerdins and Windy Druids. And if you're a Hammerdin or Windy Druid, you'll probably lose to Bonemancers. I have no idea if Bonemancers beat melee if they don't get Teleport, but it looks like melee is getting the short end of the stick, and Bonemancers are on the top of the food chain. Not much balance there.


If you can't hit your target often, that's a character flaw. It's not anyone else's fault but your own. The idea is to get high damage and high ar. If you lack one, expect to suffer greater consequences against prepared opponents.
I'm not talking about AR. I'm talking about hitting a zig-zagging incoming opponent with a non-AoE non-tracking ranged attack. Namelock does not work, and you cannot reliably predict where he's going to be in the time it takes your projectile to reach his general vicinity every single shot. You'll be missing one or two attacks for every one you hit, and he's getting closer all the time. If you try to run, you won't be attacking, and he'll just namelock you.


Rules vary. Go with what you play with. I'm a westie, and things are a lot different here than over there.
I'm saying that one of the most tested (and therefore probably one of the most balanced) rulesets restricts resists. Additionally, 95% resists is the equivalent of 75% resists + 2 absorb in terms of lowering damage (I used a 24k fireball to calculate this, and both setups results in 200 damage).


54 is a lot considering the gear that most smiters/v/t use, and sacrificing good mods to get the necessary IAS isn't all that appealing to most, especially when it is easy to get the necessary IAS easily with other weapons.
I was talking about Vindicator/Crusaders, or Smite/Charge. Doom gives 45% IAS, and BotD gives 60%.



If you stand still, he zig zags randomly. If you run, he namelocks you with a melee attack. True, you can use the terrain, but this is not foolproof, and may only get you one attack at best if he switches between two entrances.
Teleport? -.- I was talking primarily about a sorc. Sorry if that was a bit confusing.
I wasn't talking about Teleport. I'm talking about running. Most terrain features (barring a house) has at least two "entrances" close together. A melee opponent could run towards one, and switch to the other one. You'd have time to shoot out one projectile before he gets to you.


I'd use leap to escape, and leap attack to get to the necro. =/
Leap Attack is about as slow as Leap is. Another thing is that Leap Attack goes where you click it, and even if you namelocked your opponent, you'll miss if he moves.


Fireball does have a splash radius, so sometimes you don't need a direct hit to do damage.
You generally need a direct hit to activate the splash.


Again, I was talking about sorc's.
Yes, but his Charge should put you into block/hit recovery, and his Zeal should hit at least once. After the Teleport, he can repeat as necessary. It probably isn't a favorable matchup for the Zealot, but it's not impossible.


Charge?
It's difficult to charge a melee character, although meleemancers are easier due to their low range.


And remember, trying to make things perfectly fair for every class is going to make complications. You can't say, let's make things fair for the sorc, but not for others.
There are complications for making things fair for meleemancers, but there are very few complications for limiting absorb. Additionally, the increased variety


If you charge her, she'll probably fire off one shot and teleport again. Because energy shield goes of mana (which can regenerate quickly), a successful charge may not do all that much damage. And considering the sorc has a long range advantage, I can't see her teleporting close enough for you to click on her name.
If I charge, she'll be lucky to get one shot off before I reach her. Charge can easily hit for 6k, and one of these will do about 250 damage to her with 75% ES. This is about 1/3 of her life. If she has 90% ES, it'll do 100 damage, which, on an ES sorc that has invested most of the points in Energy, is about 1/7 of her life. By the way, these fractions are based off of my lvl 99 IP ES sorc, who also has 10 +50 Life Cold Skill GCs.



1) Balance is not one dueler that takes 10 hits before dying against one dueler that takes an infinite number of hits before dying.
But then I'm not advocating that either.
Two absorb + 95% resists = 0 damage. If not, they can add more absorb to make it 0 damage.


I imagine that's only a real concern in pub, and there's not much we can do to control that. In private duels, I never advocated that, so I don't quite see where you are going.
95% resists is the equivalent of 75% resists + 2 absorb.


You don't need all that many if you have +skills.
Telekinesis's bonus to ES is a synergy, which means +skills does not improve its bonus to ES. With 0 TK, ES makes you lose 200 mana for every 100 damage absorbed. 1 point in TK lowers the mana lost by 6.25. 16 points in TK are needed for a 1 to 1 ratio of mana lost to damage absorbed. Due to ES absorbing elemental damage before resists, it's generally considered suicide to not pump TK when using ES in duels.

Level 20 ES gives 75% absorb. Level 13 ES (1 + 12 equipment skills) absorbs 65%. To reach 95% absorption, one must get level 40 ES, which is impossible without a few +lightning GCs.

Let's suppose you have +12 all skills, and wish to go for 75% absorb and a 1:1 ratio of mana lost to damage absorbed. This will cost 28 skill points (16 TK, 8 ES, 1 Teleport, 1 Charged Bolt, 1 Lightning, 1 Chain Lightning), although you do get Teleport from the deal. This leaves you with 68 points. If you decide to go Fireball, you can max Fireball, 1 synergy, and Fire Mastery, while dumping 5 points into the second synergy. This leaves you with an 11k to 12k Fireball (+15% fire damage will give an 11.5k to 12.5k fireball, as this just adds to the +% of Fire Mastery, and not overall) with 10 Fire GCs. After PvP penalty, 80% resists, and 1 Dwarf Star (15% absorb), this will do roughly 300 damage. It'll take 7 hits to kill someone with 2k HP.

If you choose Blizzard, you'll do 4.4k to 4.6k damage, piercing 225% CR. With an extra 15% damage, you do 5.3k damage. After -100% CR and two absorb, you do only 350 damage, which is not viable for a non-spammable spell.

Remember, Bone Spear can easily reach 600 damage.


Some may be, not enough. In private duels it is certainly easy to balance, but in pub, it's pretty much anything goes, and be prepared to be hit from the back by multiple opponents. Pub dueling is the ultimate test of skill. You'll never know what's coming. He can pot, call his friends, use shrines, and the like. Pub is probably the best way to get better, since you get more "bang for your buck." One duel and you end up dueling 4-6 people. Besides, they are more intense, even though most pubbers are ***holes. =/ Private duels test how good you are against one opponent, but not overall, since you know you are only dueling one opponent who likely won't break the rules.
I don't care about pubs, and rules only apply to private duels, so your argument does not answer mine. Besides, you keep stating that if you play an elemental duelers, you deserve to lose to anyone with preparation. Why not allow elemental duelers to be viable and leave melee to the wayside?

[Module88]

This is fine. All I needed was a general idea.
However, this is not a very good idea. Unlimited absorb for melee characters will turn dueling into a game of luck of the draw. Assuming Enigma isn't allowed, if you're an elemental dueler and you run into melee, you lose. If you're melee and you run into a Hammerdin or Windy Druid, you lose. If you're a Hammerdin or a Windy Druid and you run into an elemental ranged attacker, you lose. Oh wait, you allow 95% resists for anyone, too. So if you're an elemental attacker, you always lose because you deal almost no damage. And if you're melee, you still lose to Hammerdins and Windy Druids. And if you're a Hammerdin or Windy Druid, you'll probably lose to Bonemancers. I have no idea if Bonemancers beat melee if they don't get Teleport, but it looks like melee is getting the short end of the stick, and Bonemancers are on the top of the food chain. Not much balance there.

Again, where did I say unlimited absorb? If you are a pure hammerdin without enigma, you deserve to lose. Assuming no teleport, it would make sense that builds like the hammerdin and windy (both reliant on teleport to catch their opponents) are at a disadvantage against ranged characters.


I'm not talking about AR. I'm talking about hitting a zig-zagging incoming opponent with a non-AoE non-tracking ranged attack. Namelock does not work, and you cannot reliably predict where he's going to be in the time it takes your projectile to reach his general vicinity every single shot. You'll be missing one or two attacks for every one you hit, and he's getting closer all the time. If you try to run, you won't be attacking, and he'll just namelock you.

1/3 hits is quite good for a zigzagging opponent. If he gets closer run. The second he namelocks you, turn around and pump him full of arrows or whatnot.


I was talking about Vindicator/Crusaders, or Smite/Charge. Doom gives 45% IAS, and BotD gives 60%.

I've paladins the most. I know what it is. But doom isn't allowed in private duels, for the most part, because of the HF. BotD gives 60 sure, but V/c's are generally at a disadvantage against v/t's, depending on the dueler and items. Because v/c's lack that range attack, and charge can be blocked/dodged when walking, v/t's generally have an advantage because of their versatility.


I wasn't talking about Teleport. I'm talking about running. Most terrain features (barring a house) has at least two "entrances" close together. A melee opponent could run towards one, and switch to the other one. You'd have time to shoot out one projectile before he gets to you.

If you are standing there casting more than one projectile and he is within a screen's range, you probably deserve to lose.


Leap Attack is about as slow as Leap is. Another thing is that Leap Attack goes where you click it, and even if you namelocked your opponent, you'll miss if he moves.

Leap attack is twice as slow as a low level leap. The leap speed is constant, but distance is not. There's a huge difference there. And if the necro is running from your LA, he can't be shooting at you.


You generally need a direct hit to activate the splash.

Not quite. Just a fraction of a yard off and it will trigger the damage. You can't be too close to it, because even if you don't get hit, it sometimes triggers an explosion, at least from my POV.


Yes, but his Charge should put you into block/hit recovery, and his Zeal should hit at least once. After the Teleport, he can repeat as necessary. It probably isn't a favorable matchup for the Zealot, but it's not impossible.

Maybe, maybe not. Teleport behind a pond. He'll have to let go of his lock to reengage you.


There are complications for making things fair for meleemancers, but there are very few complications for limiting absorb. Additionally, the increased variety

So, because it's harder to make things fair for that class you aren't even going to try? It's all or nothing here. I mean you can't say, well, since it's easier to make things fair for this class, we won't do it for the other classes. Again, not saying absorb should be unlimited, but if you cap resistance...



If I charge, she'll be lucky to get one shot off before I reach her. Charge can easily hit for 6k, and one of these will do about 250 damage to her with 75% ES. This is about 1/3 of her life. If she has 90% ES, it'll do 100 damage, which, on an ES sorc that has invested most of the points in Energy, is about 1/7 of her life. By the way, these fractions are based off of my lvl 99 IP ES sorc, who also has 10 +50 Life Cold Skill GCs.

I sure hope a pvp sorc has more than 750 life. And how does charge easily hit for 6k? Let's assume, assume here, that you have 48k damage. Divide by 6 and you get 8/2 for the DR, and you get 4k. 48k dmg to start out. Even if the sorc invests a good chunk in energy, I can't imagine her only have 750 life after gear and the like. IIRC as well, GC's can only have a max of 45 life.



Two absorb + 95% resists = 0 damage. If not, they can add more absorb to make it 0 damage.

Again, I never said unlimited absorb. And it'll never equal zero damage unless you use +absorb, and not %.



Telekinesis's bonus to ES is a synergy, which means +skills does not improve its bonus to ES. With 0 TK, ES makes you lose 200 mana for every 100 damage absorbed. 1 point in TK lowers the mana lost by 6.25. 16 points in TK are needed for a 1 to 1 ratio of mana lost to damage absorbed. Due to ES absorbing elemental damage before resists, it's generally considered suicide to not pump TK when using ES in duels.

You probably need only one point in ES with good + skills, and you can invest more in TK.


Let's suppose you have +12 all skills, and wish to go for 75% absorb and a 1:1 ratio of mana lost to damage absorbed. This will cost 28 skill points (16 TK, 8 ES, 1 Teleport, 1 Charged Bolt, 1 Lightning, 1 Chain Lightning), although you do get Teleport from the deal. This leaves you with 68 points. If you decide to go Fireball, you can max Fireball, 1 synergy, and Fire Mastery, while dumping 5 points into the second synergy. This leaves you with an 11k to 12k Fireball (+15% fire damage will give an 11.5k to 12.5k fireball, as this just adds to the +% of Fire Mastery, and not overall) with 10 Fire GCs. After PvP penalty, 80% resists, and 1 Dwarf Star (15% absorb), this will do roughly 300 damage. It'll take 7 hits to kill someone with 2k HP.

Again, that sounds ok considering she can teleport away and shoot from such a long range. But I didn't make my restrictions all that specific, as it would make things complicated. If I were to ever go through the trouble, it would have to be X absorb for X class against X class. So, just because it's a melee character doesn't mean it will get 2 absorbs. Again, way too complicated.


If you choose Blizzard, you'll do 4.4k to 4.6k damage, piercing 225% CR. With an extra 15% damage, you do 5.3k damage. After -100% CR and two absorb, you do only 350 damage, which is not viable for a non-spammable spell.

It's closer to 6k, without 15%, if you have two synergies maxed and a lvl 42 or so Blizzard. You must have messed up somewhere. -100%CR will end up being a one hit ko. You can't absorb it if you can't stand one hit.


Remember, Bone Spear can easily reach 600 damage.

Which is why necro's shouldn't be able to use more than one absorb.



I don't care about pubs, and rules only apply to private duels, so your argument does not answer mine. Besides, you keep stating that if you play an elemental duelers, you deserve to lose to anyone with preparation. Why not allow elemental duelers to be viable and leave melee to the wayside?

How exactly do you plan to leave meleers to the wayside? You have to accept what is given. No, I don't really like doom or enigma's teleport and the like. But you can't force players to not use it unless you are in private duels. There, feel free to make as many restrictions as everyone agrees to. But more people play in pubs than in private duels, and most private games have slowed down way too much to duel in often. If someone absorbs you to death and you can't do a thing, there's not much you can do. You KNEW that it could happen and that you would be helpless to it, so don't complain about it unless you are in a private game. Since we are talking about private games, then feel free to set up your rules so long as we agree to them. I'm not going to complain about it. But the problem with absorb lies in public, not private games. Private games almost always have some restriction to absorb and resists, so you can't whine about that being a problem.

If you really are talking about private duels, I don't see why you are defending the limited absorb. It's already there and no one objected to it. It seems like you are trying to defend limited absorb in pubs, which frankly, you can't enforce.

[Zelc]

How exactly do you plan to leave meleers to the wayside? You have to accept what is given. No, I don't really like doom or enigma's teleport and the like. But you can't force players to not use it unless you are in private duels. There, feel free to make as many restrictions as everyone agrees to. But more people play in pubs than in private duels, and most private games have slowed down way too much to duel in often. If someone absorbs you to death and you can't do a thing, there's not much you can do. You KNEW that it could happen and that you would be helpless to it, so don't complain about it unless you are in a private game. Since we are talking about private games, then feel free to set up your rules so long as we agree to them. I'm not going to complain about it. But the problem with absorb lies in public, not private games. Private games almost always have some restriction to absorb and resists, so you can't whine about that being a problem.

If you really are talking about private duels, I don't see why you are defending the limited absorb. It's already there and no one objected to it. It seems like you are trying to defend limited absorb in pubs, which frankly, you can't enforce.
Hey, if you build melee and you lose because your opponents have the advantage of range, there's not much you can do. You KNEW that it could happen.

Besides, I'm addressing the cons of Absorb not considered BM. In other words, is absorb cheap, and should it be limited? My advocacy is that anything over 1 absorb is cheap, and there should be a limit of 1 absorb. Anything more should be considered BM. This applies mostly to private duels, as there is no way to enforce it in pubbies. However, we are also able to address whether it should be considered BM, which sort of extends to pubbies, as slow and such did.


Again, where did I say unlimited absorb? If you are a pure hammerdin without enigma, you deserve to lose. Assuming no teleport, it would make sense that builds like the hammerdin and windy (both reliant on teleport to catch their opponents) are at a disadvantage against ranged characters.
1) Even two absorb is generally enough to nullify damage to something silly.
2) So, your rules basically makes necromancers the best.


1/3 hits is quite good for a zigzagging opponent. If he gets closer run. The second he namelocks you, turn around and pump him full of arrows or whatnot.
You'll hit him once or twice after turning to shoot before he gets to you and kills you with superior attack speed. If you do very little damage due to multiple absorb, it's even worse. You'll always lose.


I've paladins the most. I know what it is. But doom isn't allowed in private duels, for the most part, because of the HF. BotD gives 60 sure, but V/c's are generally at a disadvantage against v/t's, depending on the dueler and items. Because v/c's lack that range attack, and charge can be blocked/dodged when walking, v/t's generally have an advantage because of their versatility.
Of course, V/T's get half of their attacks reduced to something awful with 1 absorb and stacked resists.


Leap attack is twice as slow as a low level leap. The leap speed is constant, but distance is not. There's a huge difference there. And if the necro is running from your LA, he can't be shooting at you.
He doesn't have to run far to dodge the LA, nor is he particularly stressed for time.


Not quite. Just a fraction of a yard off and it will trigger the damage. You can't be too close to it, because even if you don't get hit, it sometimes triggers an explosion, at least from my POV.
Fireball has some size. I really doubt it triggers without hitting something. It could be lag/desync that makes it look that way.


Maybe, maybe not. Teleport behind a pond. He'll have to let go of his lock to reengage you.
He doesn't have to have a constant lock. He can just repeat the zig-zag, Charge, and Zeal.


So, because it's harder to make things fair for that class you aren't even going to try? It's all or nothing here. I mean you can't say, well, since it's easier to make things fair for this class, we won't do it for the other classes. Again, not saying absorb should be unlimited, but if you cap resistance...
No, it's not all or nothing. We should try to create as much variety as possible, but there is a limit when any more such attempts will create tons of complexity and perhaps even neuter other ordinarily viable classes. A simple limit on absorb and resists would allow the viability of over 10 attacks without creating complexity or neutering otherwise viable builds. It'll at the least bring more classes up to the level of Bonemancers. And like I said, 95% resists is very close to 75% resists + 2 absorb.


I sure hope a pvp sorc has more than 750 life. And how does charge easily hit for 6k? Let's assume, assume here, that you have 48k damage. Divide by 6 and you get 8/2 for the DR, and you get 4k. 48k dmg to start out. Even if the sorc invests a good chunk in energy, I can't imagine her only have 750 life after gear and the like. IIRC as well, GC's can only have a max of 45 life.
It's life or mana. If it's life, your ES will just mana drain you. And yes, GCs can get +50 life, but has a ilvl of 110. It's possible, and therefore, legal on IP dueling. And yes, my ES sorc only has about 700 life. With 89% ES and 2k mana, it's generally enough.


Again, I never said unlimited absorb. And it'll never equal zero damage unless you use +absorb, and not %.
OK, it'll be something like 200 damage. It'll take 10 hits to kill someone with 2k life. That's really not good.


You probably need only one point in ES with good + skills, and you can invest more in TK.
So it'll be absorbing 65%.


Again, that sounds ok considering she can teleport away and shoot from such a long range. But I didn't make my restrictions all that specific, as it would make things complicated. If I were to ever go through the trouble, it would have to be X absorb for X class against X class. So, just because it's a melee character doesn't mean it will get 2 absorbs. Again, way too complicated.
Um... you stated that you advocate melee can use more than 1 absorb against ranged elemental classes. I know it's more complex than that, but that would be the rule and not the exception, right?


It's closer to 6k, without 15%, if you have two synergies maxed and a lvl 42 or so Blizzard. You must have messed up somewhere. -100%CR will end up being a one hit ko. You can't absorb it if you can't stand one hit.
A 6k Blizzard with -100% resists and 40% absorb deals 1.2k as a first hit, which is survivable for most characters. After that, it deals like 400.


Which is why necro's shouldn't be able to use more than one absorb.
With 95% resists, elemental characters would deal less damage than a necro.

[Module88]

Hey, if you build melee and you lose because your opponents have the advantage of range, there's not much you can do. You KNEW that it could happen.

Exactly my point. So I don't see why you are complaining here.


Besides, I'm addressing the cons of Absorb not considered BM. In other words, is absorb cheap, and should it be limited? My advocacy is that anything over 1 absorb is cheap, and there should be a limit of 1 absorb. Anything more should be considered BM. This applies mostly to private duels, as there is no way to enforce it in pubbies. However, we are also able to address whether it should be considered BM, which sort of extends to pubbies, as slow and such did.

Again, I don't see where you are going. To me this seems like a waste of time. Private duels/games already have their limits, so abide by them. Whether or not it's BM or not, we can't force anyone to follow it, so it doesn't really matter that much. As far as I'm concerned, if we can't change it, we shouldn't argue over it. In private duels, we can set rules, so let's do that. But in pub, whether we think something is right or not, there will always be plenty of people who won't care, so I don't see why we are spending so much more time on the topic.


1) Even two absorb is generally enough to nullify damage to something silly.
2) So, your rules basically makes necromancers the best.

How does that make any sense? Necromancers are limited on their absorb and resistance, and they are suddenly the best?


You'll hit him once or twice after turning to shoot before he gets to you and kills you with superior attack speed. If you do very little damage due to multiple absorb, it's even worse. You'll always lose.

Test it out. I don't see why he should ever get the opportunity to even click on you. If you really are a good sorc, only targeting attacks will hit you. As a sorc, if they click on you, it's your problem. They shouldn't be able to without sheer luck, as you should be moving too fast for them too. By the time they move their cursor toward you, you should be gone.


He doesn't have to have a constant lock. He can just repeat the zig-zag, Charge, and Zeal.

If he use more than one button, so should you. Don't stand there and allow him to confuse you.


It's life or mana. If it's life, your ES will just mana drain you. And yes, GCs can get +50 life, but has a ilvl of 110. It's possible, and therefore, legal on IP dueling. And yes, my ES sorc only has about 700 life. With 89% ES and 2k mana, it's generally enough.

Ok, have you ever seen a legitimate one? 700 life doesn't seem all that much. Shako, life charms, gear, and life from leveling should give you more than that, especially if you use these 50 lifers you are talking about.


Um... you stated that you advocate melee can use more than 1 absorb against ranged elemental classes. I know it's more complex than that, but that would be the rule and not the exception, right?

There are exceptions to every rule, and that would just be the broad idea. For instance, because paladins have superior speed to most other classes, they would be limited to one absorb and probably 80-85% resistance. Other classes would be different, and that would depend on the build as well. Again, too complicated. No need to worry about it if we can't change it. It's like arguging "we should change the color of the sky to white so that color blind people can experience..." As if we could.

[QUOTE]A 6k Blizzard with -100% resists and 40% absorb deals 1.2k as a first hit, which is survivable for most characters. After that, it deals like 400.[?QUOTE]

1.2? How so? 6/6= 1k. That's with zero resistance. -100% resistance will probably kill you. Now remember, that is with only two maxed synergies, and NO +% cold damage at all.



Again, some things I didn't bother responding to. The point is, private rooms have their rules, and they should be followed. Since we can't enforce these absorb or whatever rules you want in pub, there is no point talking about it. Pub is usually going to be anything goes. That's just how it is. There's not much you can do about it. People will nk, guard, double or triple team you, but you can't enforce fairness everywhere so only do it where you can- private games.

[Zelc]

Again, I don't see where you are going. To me this seems like a waste of time. Private duels/games already have their limits, so abide by them. Whether or not it's BM or not, we can't force anyone to follow it, so it doesn't really matter that much. As far as I'm concerned, if we can't change it, we shouldn't argue over it. In private duels, we can set rules, so let's do that. But in pub, whether we think something is right or not, there will always be plenty of people who won't care, so I don't see why we are spending so much more time on the topic.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that dueling leagues are justified in and should put a 1 absorb limit on all characters. Maybe it wasn't very clear.


Exactly my point. So I don't see why you are complaining here.
Don't nerf the elemental damagers too much when trying to balance the melee characters. Remember, even though melee has it tough, they can still do damage.


How does that make any sense? Necromancers are limited on their absorb and resistance, and they are suddenly the best?
They do as much damage as Sorceresses do in a 1v1, and do more against melee than sorceresses do.

The point is, allowing multiple absorbs will allow some characters to be nearly immune to elemental damagers.


Test it out. I don't see why he should ever get the opportunity to even click on you. If you really are a good sorc, only targeting attacks will hit you. As a sorc, if they click on you, it's your problem. They shouldn't be able to without sheer luck, as you should be moving too fast for them too. By the time they move their cursor toward you, you should be gone.
Sure, then they can play defense. You'll have to go to him, and he'll take that opportunity to run to where he thinks you'll be. Not foolproof, but they'll get some hits this way.


Ok, have you ever seen a legitimate one? 700 life doesn't seem all that much. Shako, life charms, gear, and life from leveling should give you more than that, especially if you use these 50 lifers you are talking about.
Hm... I have some non-life charms, and I'm not using Shako. That might explain things.

Starting Hit Points: 40
Hit Points From Level 99: 98
Golden Bird Quest: 60
10x +50 Life GCs: 500
9x +20 Life SCs: 180
1x Perfect Annihilus: 40
The Occulus: 40
Shako: 148
Total: 1106

You're right, it is higher. A level 85 dueler on Bnet could expect about 971 HP.


1.2? How so? 6/6= 1k. That's with zero resistance. -100% resistance will probably kill you. Now remember, that is with only two maxed synergies, and NO +% cold damage at all.
You forgot the absorb. It'll take 40% off of the damage, even though you won't heal from it the first time.

[Module88]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that dueling leagues are justified in and should put a 1 absorb limit on all characters. Maybe it wasn't very clear.

And I never said they weren't. Let them do what they want.


Sure, then they can play defense. You'll have to go to him, and he'll take that opportunity to run to where he thinks you'll be. Not foolproof, but they'll get some hits this way.

Remember, you can hit them from long range whereas they can't. Don't run full away, but don't get very close either.


You forgot the absorb. It'll take 40% off of the damage, even though you won't heal from it the first time.

Absorb only works if you can take one hit. It counts after you take damage, and if you die after that, absorb won't help you at all.


Again, I'm kind of confused as to what you are arguing. It seems to me that you are trying to defend limited absorb in private games. The problem is, no one is objecting that.

[LLD-Vampire]

quote war?

[Zelc]

Again, I'm kind of confused as to what you are arguing. It seems to me that you are trying to defend limited absorb in private games. The problem is, no one is objecting that.
I don't know, it's what the first post seems to say...

[Module88]

I don't know, it's what the first post seems to say...

To me it kind of seemed like he wanted other people to post their opinions. And I did not see your post andy, my bad -.-


Errrr, Blizz with no Synergies doesn't do anywhere close to enough damage. With just 2 Ravens, Snowclash, and Blackoak you need at least 2k blizz to do any damage even with NO resist on the other person. With no synergies you would barely go over that threshold, and even if you add in fathom, nightwings, etc, a little bit of resist will be the end of the day. If he can just break even with around 0 resist in hell you will already be doing little to no damage to him. A few more resist charms, and its off to lunch while you blizz him.

With a level 43 or so bliz and no synergies, you'll get about 2200 dmg. The damage from blizzard primarily comes from your ability to drop his resistance, not increase yours. No, it's not nearly as strong as a synergized blizzard, but instead of focusing on just gaining 460 or so cold resistance in hell to counter that CM, he also has to focus on getting 75+ resistance and absorb for fireball. So while you may negate that blizzard with all that cold absorb gear, you'll barely have any fire absorb. You need to be able to negate both the CM and the facets for cold and fire.

[Inman]

Absorb is totally cool, and totally fair. You don't see elemental classes voluntarily abstaining from using their skills, nor do you see anybody getting rid of their damage reduction. If elementalists don't like absorb, then be my guest and take off your shako, your verdungo's, drop the stormshield, and by the way, you had better run fast. People against absorb just want an unfair advantage, end of story. If you don't like absorb, then don't use an elemental attack. There is no bm using any equipment created by Blizzard. If you get beat, then you better figure out a way to win or go fight somebody else. It astounds me that people would even suggest that I take measures to weaken myself in a duel in the name of some bogus claim of sportsmanship.

That said, people can obviously be uncool in guarding town, not letting you get your body, stealing gold, etc. THAT is bm.

[AndyChrono]

With a level 43 or so bliz and no synergies, you'll get about 2200 dmg. The damage from blizzard primarily comes from your ability to drop his resistance, not increase yours. No, it's not nearly as strong as a synergized blizzard, but instead of focusing on just gaining 460 or so cold resistance in hell to counter that CM, he also has to focus on getting 75+ resistance and absorb for fireball. So while you may negate that blizzard with all that cold absorb gear, you'll barely have any fire absorb. You need to be able to negate both the CM and the facets for cold and fire.

I already took CM into account. With -100 resist, 2 ravens + blackoak at level 90 you take about 100 damage per shard. Against a 5k life barb or so that's rather pathetic. If I solve backwards to see what resistance you need to be healing from that damage blizzard. Luna gives about 56 cold absorb at level 90. Double that, multiple by 5 and then by 4 for the 2 ravens and PvP penalty for elemental. You get 2240. Basically, like I said, if he can just break even in the cold resist department, he can go off to lunch while you blizz him. Without using a Doom, the highest -resist you can get is around 240. Getting 340 Cold Resist is not particularly difficult. How much do resist charms cost? P. Gems? Thul Runes / P. Sapphires aren't hard to get either. Also, if they are an assassin, barb, or paladin who have resist boosting skills it becomes even easier. If you were to put cold facets in everything, that leaves you with no fire facets whatsoever. Fire facets just mean you have less -cold resist. All he needs is an Infernostride or Hotspur along with a Rising Sun and your fireball is doing no damage. Either way, after a few duels, any persistent absorber will have figured out the perfect balance of resist/absorb items and charms to completely nullify you. Melee chars might even try killing you with wizardspikes and you wouldn't be able to do anything to stop them.



Absorb is totally cool, and totally fair. You don't see elemental classes voluntarily abstaining from using their skills, nor do you see anybody getting rid of their damage reduction. If elementalists don't like absorb, then be my guest and take off your shako, your verdungo's, drop the stormshield, and by the way, you had better run fast. People against absorb just want an unfair advantage, end of story. If you don't like absorb, then don't use an elemental attack. There is no bm using any equipment created by Blizzard. If you get beat, then you better figure out a way to win or go fight somebody else. It astounds me that people would even suggest that I take measures to weaken myself in a duel in the name of some bogus claim of sportsmanship.

Lol okay. So since Full Rejuv pots are "created by Blizzard" I guess I can use those in duels and that's totally cool right? Or maybe you are naked and I'll use my equipment created by Blizzard and NK you over and over and over and that will be totally cool too right? I guess agreeing not to pot/well/shrine/nk/etc. are all also bogus claims of sportsmanship too right? Elemental duelers don't want you to duel them with -100 resist all and no absorb. They just want moderated absorb so that their attacks aren't healing you or doing single digit damage.

Ask yourself, "Why people get mad when you NK them?" Because without their corpse they have virtually no chance to effectively fight back. Its the same thing with absorb abuse. Frankly, the naked character actually has a HIGHER chance to win than an elemental char vs. absorbers since some characters (i.e Necros) could still conceivably kill someone while naked. On the other hand the elemental character has ZERO chance to beat an absorb abuser. If you can make the claim that NK'ing is BM, then those saying that absorb abuse is BM have an even more substantial claim than yours.

[DoC-Makaveli]

ok im going to play devils advocate here and suggest a d2 pvp world where absorb isnt considered bm. if absorb was a viable tactic just think of the possibilites?

players would be forced to use more than one skill for example more classes like vts.
just imagaine duels were sorcs use more than tele and blizzard to defeat another player.
trap assasins would be forced to use other skills off the skill tree so they couldnt use mind blast and spam the same trap over and over.
there would be more variables on set ups so we might see two wind druids using different equipment.

before you ask the only time i use absorb is when i get hosted by high lvls such as trappers and i slap on tg and guardian angel. my pala is lvl 49 and it never seems to surprise me that a lvl 95 trapsin cannot negate a lvl 49....i do not use absorb when dueling legit duels and thats because its against the "rules" but i think there is an argument to suggets this game may be more intersting if absorb was acceptable.

post your views and the characters you play pls. flame away..

if you will read the common set of pvp rules... it allowed 1 item per element of absorb with no limit on max res or stack res (europe's rules differ a little i think?)

but abusing absorb and making another players do no damage at all or heal you is just bm! why cant u see that? i mean, say there is a vt like u said and the opponent has enuff stack res and absorb so that foh does no dmg... that char would still be quite useless with smite alone...

also u say trappers just spam the same trap and mb.... yes, maybe if they are a terrible trapper... a good trapper will use wof and fire blast as well as light sentry and mb

[soul-eater]

i say use what u want in public duels most do if u dont u die easy.u may say thats just bad manners i say deal with it i use light trapper and foh for duelin both 90 res 95 light with tgods both dam can be reduced even totally negated but do i complain no i just go 2 another duel game or try different skill i never go absorber lol ect like lot of lame duelers do and i never stay hostile 2 some 1 who cant give me a decent duel ie a run for me money i say ffa any items and good luck 1.10 has bred a bunch of pansy *** whining duelers,dueling is fun dont complain if u dont like dont duel

[C_Narcissus]

I play a ladder trapper, and I have to say that absorb is the cheapest thing since the slow bug, if not WORSE. The fact that you can completely negate someones main attack is completely unbalanced - absorb, in my opinion, should take a HEAVY PVP penalty just like other game factors do when you apply them to players in lieu of monsters. I have no problem dancing with someone who has 95 lightning resist and 95 fire resist and 95 poison resist (since I now use widowmaker and max venom on switch), but try to kill someone with 95 resists and just 1 wisp and 1 dwarf - impossible. When you can kill someone without absorb, why should you wear it and be cheap? My WWer proves it, I can kill anything without absorbing it. Just stack the resists!

[toader]

Wow. Im so glad those 2 guys are done quoting every single freaking thing each other said. What an annoying way to argue, no continuous stream of thought at all.

Anyways, absorb the a-holes, dont absorb everyone, simple.

This has been said before in the OT forums, and Ill say it again here: Arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympics; even if you win, your still "special."

[Watzit2ya]

I for the most part agree with toader. I have 2 different opinions on this.

1: My main project is a PvP barb. Some of the time I do spend in pubby duels ( i know i know ) but hey sometimes you need to join a pubby duel or 2.
There is lots of idiots, young kids, and unskilled players there. Mostly players with bland 1 skill builds. I have NP with that. But when it comes to town gaurding and NK'ing or teaming up then i just throw on whatever absorb or item i need, IF and thats a rare IF i even need it. Then mop the floor with them till they leave listening to them crying about my wisp + tgods or whatever may apply. As i scroll up watching them NK 10000 people thinking they are the you know what.

My summary of that is: the crappy players you dont even need it most the time, you can EASILY beat w/o it. And in extreme cases it should be used.

2: i will NEVER use anything cheap vs another nice/legit dueler, expecially in private duels, or organized duels with real civilized people. Yes you die alot more. But the skill level is 200000000 times higher. And most the time if i were to throw on an absorb item those players have counters, so its not even a big deal.

Its funny how an " uber " necro will join a pubby game, or " uber " windy druid who only pubby duels and wins 95% of the time vs noobs. Thinking o i will own everyone, then i can WW lock them and laugh. But i have yet to even touch a good private dueling necro with skill. Basically most this game is about skill. Most the people who will cry and whine about absorb are the people who deserved to have it used against them anyhow.