View Full Version : Are We Cheaters?
Unholy_VI
05-04-2004, 11:58
I was looking up information on a 'speed hack'
that I heard being talked about in a game tonight. I didnt find any info on it but did see a thread on cheating in general that made me stop and think.
The poster was complaining about maphack users and how its cheating just like duping or pindlebots ect...
I always have agreed even before blizzard came out and threatened to ban people for it that maphack is cheating for a few reasons:
A) It cuts down the time needed to exp, quest, and level so that the maphacker gets to see several times the amount of drops per unit of time or complete the acts several times faster ect...
B) It cuts down on the risk. Especially true in hardcore. I walk into a pack of bad guys i didnt expect quite often. Many times when a random boss comes on my screeen i have no idea what its mods are until i'm tangling with it. maphacker knows all before he starts.
C) It is something that Blizzard never intended for people to be able to do in the game. like duping, like pindlebots or anything else similar.
Some of the maphackers were arguing that even coming to these forums is cheating in the same way. Of course, like anyone else being naughty they were just trying to justify their maphacking.
Still... the argument got to me, I have to admit. People who come to these forums know darn well that most of the info here was taken from people who reverse engineered the game, looked at all of the data files on skills, item stats, drop info and other game mechinics.
and I propose that:
A) it cuts down on the time needed to exp, quest, MF ect... to know the exact best equipment and skill set-ups for every character, where the best places to hunt for items are, and all of the detailed info on skills and items that isnt available on the Blizzard site.
B) It certainly cuts down on the risk of dying to know these things.
C) Blizz definitely didnt intend for people to break down their source code and read their formulae and data files to figure out how to play this game. Did they know it would happen? Of course. But knowing someone will do it and intending it are two different things.
So if we use such information... are we like the guy who pays for or trades for known duped items and doesnt consider it cheating becuase he didnt dupe them?
Or the one who does it 'becuase everyone else has them so I have to to stay competitive?'
Sure I didnt reverse engineer the code. But now the info is widely known so I HAVE to be up on it too or everyone else will be making much better chars.
Honestly, even twinking chars out is probobly a form of cheating if you think about it.
I'm curious to see what other HC players think. Me, I feel that there are levels of cheating and that all of us do things that could well be considered cheating. but maybe it just comes down to degrees of pureness.
I consider the legit dueler without maphack, pindlebots, or other illegal aids to be much more honorable than the chickenlife maphacker. but...
dont most of those guys get their buddy to poweract them so they can have the benefits of quest the char could not usually have completed at their level? Don't they reserch their builds in these forums using info gained from hacking into the code?
Sure they do. Is it cheating in the strictest sense? I would have to say yes.
DO I do it? Of course!
SO I guess I'm a cheater.. but there is a line that I won't cross. its somewhere between using info someone gained from hacking the game code, twinking (Both of which I do) and using maphack, chickenlife, duping or using dupes, and running MF bots (Which I don't)
Is there a difference between me and people who do those things? I like to think so but maybe we are all just cheaters to whatever level well feel is comfortable. :drink:
doubleOObubble
05-04-2004, 12:35
You have a good point, but I don't think it's comparable. There is no good way to define exactly what is cheating and not for every thing. Let's run it down to this:
Morally:
If you think you are a cheater by reading facts that have evolved from reverse engineering - don't read it. You can still come here and read about strange occurances, nice finds, PK "discussions" etc etc.
Practically:
The information exchanged here regarding things Blizzard probably didn't meant for people to reverse engineer affects our minds and our builds. I'm not going to say it's not cheating and I'm not going to say it is - it doesn't matter that much. However, in a small attempt of fairly "jusification"; This is "passive" information used for building very special characters. It's not interacting with the game in the same way as for example MH.
Again: I think your point is very valid. But I think the straight comparison is a bit too much. With a short "justiying" analogy on why going here is not comparable to using 3'd party programs would be something like this:
a) Reading a book and reading up on poker strategies, going for a poker game, playing it fair.
or
b) Stuffing your sleave with aces, going for a poker game, cheating.
Of course, the book on poker strategies does not tell you what hand you are getting later that night. However, it does tell you what to do with what hands... Maybe a so and so analogy, but it's about the same dimension as the topic at hand I think.
Interesting nonetheless!
MoUsE_WiZ
05-04-2004, 12:39
The info is stored in easy to read and mod mpq files. Blizzard does actively encourage modding communities, not necessarily with D2, but they took a LARGE step with WC3. It's not the case of "they knew it would happen and couldn't stop it" it's more the case of they knew it would happen and made it almost as easy as possible to accomplish, I mean they could have encrypted the MPQs or something and didn't. What has to be done to read the MPQs isn't exactly opening an exe in w32dasm and reading through assembly -.-
Also, if Blizzard didn't intend some of the info found on this site to be known, they wouldn't actively link things like the speed calculator on the Arreat Summit.
EDIT:
That said, it is a valid point that has crossed my mind before, but knowing how the game works helps you play the game better. Manipulating how the game works is what I would consider cheating.
Yup, I think that sums it up. Its the difference between knowledge and manipulation that does it.
Yeah, agreed.
Were else would you draw the line? If MH and reading up on info is the same, then bots and trigger hacks are the next logical step where a user of these "tricks" can claim we are as bad as he is.
BTW: Every Magazine posts cheat and console commands these day - mosty they get the info directly from the programmers. I believe Diablo is one of the few games that does not have this kind of cheat access. I always found "GOD" modes incredibly sad to use. It means the game is programmed in such a crap way that most people need a code to complete it? Pathetic.
MoUsE_WiZ
05-04-2004, 13:00
Idkfa
Iddt
say what???????? :scratch:
*points BFG at Det and hits Ctrl*
Sucker!
Find yourself a copy of Doom 1 and type them codes for IIRC immortality and all weapons. OR was it all weapons and full ammo?
edit: idkfa was weaponry for sure!
:lol:
My point exactly...never needed 'dem codes.
Researching what is available about something you wish to know is not cheating, it is simply preperation.
In sports the study film and tendancies in order to prepare for the game. In this game some people study to code which is not illegal nore blocked in order to be better prepared for the game.
Twinking, is of course not "pure game" persay, but it is not blocked by Blizz and is not stated as ilegal. Trading is encouraged and made possible thus trading items from character to character is perfectly legit and doesnt matter who owns what.
If you can do most anything in this game without additional programs than its legit.
Things to point at as "legit" regardless of how "correct" it may be or the original intentions of Blizz.
10 sec hostile WP.......if you can get around it without a hack than its legit, but it is alsoconsidered bug exploite and many people frown on it. Although I personally hate PK in general I find no difference in the one who waits 10 seconds than the one that doesnt other than I have more respect for those who try and play as the game is intended.
ETH bug in 1.09.....highly used, not a hack and supplied by the game.
Mastery bugs.....exploited too many times to count although not that you could so "no I wont exploite this" unless you just never played a Barb or Sin.
Guided Arrow bouncing 100 times thru a target was also a bug.......
Anything you do to avoid questing Act 2 or 3 without assembling staff or flail.
Getting WPS for others, leeching quests, askign for high lvl help...etc, if you do any of this then you exploit the game to an extent.
There is only one true way to not cheat this game and that is to play untwinked from start to finish and not skipping quests. Now how many of you good people do this? I will tel you I do it a bit more than 1/2 the time depending on my goal of the character. Some have all quests and WPS and earned them, some that i quested have ended up skipping a few things due to the goals of the rest of the party in which I went back and did later.
I dont rush my characters, I play them thru the game. Sure they are all not fully quested 100% but most quested alot and soloed Ancients at all lvls, but even with all of that said, I cheated/exploited the game to an extent, but I didnt use one program/hack to allow mme to do anything or avoid anything thus it is all "legit".
I use to use Map Hack as many of you know. Well about a year ago I realized that I just wasnt dieing. I could avoid or be prepared for things and avoid death. I realized that this game was just too easy with this cruch so I gave it up. Since then I enjoy this game without knowing what is coming. There ar emany things I love and sorely miss that MH gave me that personally I would love to see available in the game but I wont go back to it. I dont die now without using MH, and I find all that one needs in due time also.
i dont have an issue with those that MH, but please dont run around calling people noobs or considering yourslef 1337 if you use it as you arent. You are simply a decent player using a cruch and you will never be a great player while you still use it.
I see tons of people every day that consider themselves top players that use dupes, MH, and all that illegit stuff. It is actually sickening to see thier text while they do it. I only know of a few people that have placed high on the ladder without MH or other hacks like duped runs or pindlebotted items. Most of them arent in the top 50 or 100, or even 200 but they are the reall top players of this game as they did it right. They also dont leech, they do what they can to contridute to the killing. They have no problem walking to the Throne at lvl 93+ because they know that it is dangerous for an ill prepared character and without MH or even a good character for that matter.
The "great players" set themsleves apart from the rest and they dont spout off "i am great" they just are great and play the game, kick its butt and have fun.
The best of the best dont toote thier own horn and they dont use hacks and they dont use dupes or any other illegit means. So all you that use these need to just recignize that you arent the best and never will be until you give those up and do it the right way!
Stinger rant of th day brought to you by Archway, Archway cookies the company that brought you thick arse soft batch sugar cookies and those freaking cookies with fruty stuf in the middle. When your mom says cookies, you think Archway!
Now back to your regularly scheduled program!
Unholy_VI
05-04-2004, 17:07
Interesting ideas from all.
I especially like the poker analogy. Good stuff!
Idkfa
Iddt
you forgot about iddqd :)
//Johnny
A while ago me and some others were having a bit of a discussion about people using netstat to find specific servers and sell sojs for DC.
I was convinced this was clearly cheating because it was using a 3rd party program to give you a distinct advantage in the game, but then it was pointed out that using these forums was in some respects using a 3rd party program to gain information out about the game which you couldn't normally be able to obtain, giving you a clear advantage. So I was left unsure about what cheating really meant, which is kind of what this thread is addressing.
Just thought that was kind of relevent.
Leper
Using Netstat and getting the server and then finding that server is a whole new matter as it is pure luck still, but I have heard of a prog that will do that for you.......that is cheating!
Discussing and researching is not cheating.........it may "cheat your expierence" or help you avoid major mistakes, but reading a road map is also a way to avoid major mistakes.
Never confuse reasearching, studying or training as cheating. These things are what make people exceed. Now hacking, performance enhancing drugs, breaking peopels legs so they cant compete is cheating..........please dont confuse these things.
A while ago me and some others were having a bit of a discussion about people using netstat to find specific servers and sell sojs for DC.
I was convinced this was clearly cheating because it was using a 3rd party program to give you a distinct advantage in the game, but then it was pointed out that using these forums was in some respects using a 3rd party program to gain information out about the game which you couldn't normally be able to obtain, giving you a clear advantage. So I was left unsure about what cheating really meant, which is kind of what this thread is addressing.
Just thought that was kind of relevent.
Leper
The argument ive always used when people think using netstat is cheating is this. In my opinion a 3rd party program is something that you must download netstat comes on every computer operating system in 1 form or another.
Ive always been curious as to how this was figured out. How did someone comeabout figuring out games were ip based and the world event occured across an ip but not a realm etc
CoonerTheRed
05-04-2004, 19:17
just playing devil's advocate, as im rather anti-mh, but you could argue that, ignoring the chicken part, maphack is just another way of getting more information, preparing for the game. It in no way manipulates the game, it simply makes information about the game available to you (much like the forums). I mean, is there really a big difference between reading the mpq files and reading the information sent from bnet about the current map and monsters on that map?
Personally I think cheating is like any other sense of "morality." I have found my line, one I am comfortable walking, and I avoid straying too far from it. I tend to look down on those who walk to far away from my line (in either direction). I try to avoid judging them, but in a sense, I do. This is no different from obeying the law (aka blizzard's decisions) in real life. I would not steal something, or assault someone, and I look down on those who do. But, I have imbibed alcohol before I was 21, I drive too fast, and I still have an outstanding parking ticket that I refuse to pay because I think it was not clearly marked, despite what any judge may find.
It simply comes down to a personal decision, one that will, and should, be constantly evaluated and reevaluated by yourself and those around you.
edit: nice thread all, it's been a while since i've seen a nice, well-thought out series of posts on cheating.
squigipapa
05-04-2004, 19:48
If everyone bought the game, put the cd in and played the game. Which is the only thing blizzard intended people to do, then we would not know the lvl 85 areas, we would not know a whole boat load of other information that we know.
Stinger: you say that useing netstat to check your IP is not cheating, I totally agree, but how exactly can you draw the line on that? I'm using linux, running vmware, so lets say I use netstat here, lets say I get sick of typeing 'netstat' so I write a little script called 'n', lets say I write a little script that runs netstat and grep's for a certian ip and if it dosen't find it, it cuts of the connection, I mean it's something that I can do manually from the command line, I just put thoes commands in a script instead..
I'm not disagreeing with you or anything, just kinda trying to think of how and where a line can be drawn. typeing commands = not cheating, typeing commands in a script = ??, compileing script to bin file that does it == ?? I think the whole 'finding D clone thing' is a little different, cause you could write a program that checks ip's and disconnects and dosen't modify the game or game code in any way, as long as the creation of the game is done manually within the game, if your program creates the d2 game then you've definitly wandered into the cheating realm..
ok, I'm rambeling .. :)
In my opinion, using netstat to find a game where DC will spawn is cheating. It's exactly the same to me as using maphack or chicken or any other cheat. However, it's only a game! So, morally I would have no problem with it.
The only time morals come into play for me is when other people might get hurt/beaten by the hack (trigger pk, chicken use while dueling).
It's similar to some real life rules regarding things such as speed limits and cross walks. I think speed limits are important to follow in certain situations, because someone could get hurt if they are disobeyed. However, I often drive slightly over the speed limit, because my morals don't preclude it. As long as I believe that I am not posing a danger to myself or others, I have no problem. Also, I will jaywalk after looking to see that it's clear. My morals aren't a perfect copy of the law.
Blizzard's TOU? Never read it, don't care.
just playing devil's advocate, as im rather anti-mh, but you could argue that, ignoring the chicken part, maphack is just another way of getting more information, preparing for the game. It in no way manipulates the game, it simply makes information about the game available to you (much like the forums). I mean, is there really a big difference between reading the mpq files and reading the information sent from bnet about the current map and monsters on that map?
MH doesnt really give you information about the game or how to build, it shows you exaclty how to avoid death, the quickest way to a place where all the shrines are and what they are. When you move forward and 2-3 screens away you can see the full mods of a boss it is easy to take a turn and they never see you. Sorry, but this isnt "research" these is just manipulation.
It is possbile with MH to avoid all dangers. Me or anyone sitting and telling you that there are boss glaoms in there over and over isnt going to make you avoid that danger. You may prepare for it better, but you wont be able to avoid it.
imagine a Trapper for instance with Telport and MapHack......tele, tele, tele....MH shows A Boss or Champs with LiMsFECE over its head.......she stops short, tosses out a Cloak of Shadows, maybe places Shadow strategically and teles on thru like there was nothing there.
Now that........LiMsFECE is just as it reads......Light immune, Multi Shot, Fire Enchant, Cold Enchant and getting hit by that pack of boss/minions all at once has killed several sorc and can kill or hurt badly many well built characters, but having MH allowed them to totally avoid this danger.
Reading mods on your screen takes time........reading them when they arent moving and 2-3 screens away is way too easy.
Teleporting straight to Durance 3 instead of doing the whole map is a big advantage.
MH tells you EVERYTHING to an extent.
We can talk all day about what can spawn in there and prepare you for possibilities, but we cant tell you what is going to be there on the next tele, or around the next corner.
CoonerTheRed
05-04-2004, 21:18
MH doesnt really give you information about the game or how to build, it shows you exaclty how to avoid death, the quickest way to a place where all the shrines are and what they are. When you move forward and 2-3 screens away you can see the full mods of a boss it is easy to take a turn and they never see you. Sorry, but this isnt "research" these is just manipulation.
It is possbile with MH to avoid all dangers. Me or anyone sitting and telling you that there are boss glaoms in there over and over isnt going to make you avoid that danger. You may prepare for it better, but you wont be able to avoid it.
imagine a Trapper for instance with Telport and MapHack......tele, tele, tele....MH shows A Boss or Champs with LiMsFECE over its head.......she stops short, tosses out a Cloak of Shadows, maybe places Shadow strategically and teles on thru like there was nothing there.
Now that........LiMsFECE is just as it reads......Light immune, Multi Shot, Fire Enchant, Cold Enchant and getting hit by that pack of boss/minions all at once has killed several sorc and can kill or hurt badly many well built characters, but having MH allowed them to totally avoid this danger.
Reading mods on your screen takes time........reading them when they arent moving and 2-3 screens away is way too easy.
Teleporting straight to Durance 3 instead of doing the whole map is a big advantage.
MH tells you EVERYTHING to an extent.
We can talk all day about what can spawn in there and prepare you for possibilities, but we cant tell you what is going to be there on the next tele, or around the next corner.
ah, but the devil's advocate in me would say that knowing the gloams can go through my life in 2 seconds flat, and knowing that gloams are common in ws 3 isn't really that different from knowing that there are gloams around the corner. The fact is, it's still just more information. Personally, the knowledge that the council can be very dangerous as they can spawn FE/LE and kill you very quickly in nm is just as useful as the absolute knowledge that there is a FE/LE councilmember hanging out by Khalim's orb, I would treat both situations the same way.
In no way does mh (sans chicken, or maybe more optionals, i have no clue as i don't have it) manipulate the game. It DOES, however, change the way you play the game, which is the point Stinger makes. However, I argue that the info here changes the way you play the game in the exact same way.
I find this really amusing, Stinger arguing anti-mh and me pro-mh, after the conversation in the scd game the other week :lol:
edit: in practice, I completely agree with Stinger. However, my point is just that using the forums and mh are just extensions of the same idea- gaining information about the game to use for your advantage. Oh, and cause i like a good debate once in a while :D
I am not anti or pro........i personally dont care thus it is easy to discuss as i have done both.
Beleive me regardless of devils advocate MH doesnt just change how you play, it changes everything about the game. It allows sorcs to be totally decked with MF and have little worry of death.
i dont ***** at ppl that use and i never will unless they keeep scewing up my game.
Oh dont forget Scroll Lock where you can stand in one spot and scroll your screen and kill stuff from 4-5 screens away. I never did try that.
i wish I never got MH, but I got lured into it. I left Bnet to play on a private server and the server offered it as a DL and encouraged its use. Well, everyone had it and kept telling me to get it they were tierd of telling me where to go!!! Well i should told them were to go and not got it, but I broke down and got it.
if somone needs that crush i dont care really, just dont go hollering out monster mods and pointing the right way all the damn time and ruin my fun and challenge.
Above all else, if you use this cruch dont run around spouting off you are some 1337 player either.
squigipapa
05-04-2004, 21:49
In my opinion, using netstat to find a game where DC will spawn is cheating. It's exactly the same to me as using maphack or chicken or any other cheat. However, it's only a game! So, morally I would have no problem with it.
I respect your oppinion on on this, I'm just trying to understand how you can think useing netstat to tell you what server you're currently connected to is cheating. Netstat dosen't help you connect to the right server, hell, I've tried for like 3 hours to connect to a certian server, and then just gave up cause it was way to boreing. But I can't see any way that it could be considered a cheat. Well, actually I can, if you (not you but 'you' in general) think that Blizzard intended for a user to start up the game, and play, and do nothing else, then I guess you could consider netstat a cheat. However, if you believe that, then you would also have to play the rest of the game by the strictest standards. Like, Never using any knowledge that was gained from someone hacking the game files etc. Its possible to play the game like this, but not very practical. Netstat is totally outside of the game, it's simply a connection on my network. So what if I don't use netstat, but rather, check outgoing connections on my firewall? I just don't see how reading an outgoing connection on my firewall could ever be considered cheating, now, If I configured my firewall so it would only allow me to connect to one specific IP on port 4000, so I could just open the game and try creating until I finally hit the IP I wanted, without ever having to alt+tab out to see what IP I was connected to ... come to think of it, that's not a half bad Idea.. :) .. oh well.. :clap:
killerxbabe
05-04-2004, 22:45
If I configured my firewall so it would only allow me to connect to one specific IP on port 4000, so I could just open the game and try creating until I finally hit the IP I wanted, without ever having to alt+tab out to see what IP I was connected to ... come to think of it, that's not a half bad Idea.. :) .. oh well.. :clap:[/QUOTE]
Whoa!! That is a good idea, have yet to see the DClone... that sure would simplify attaching to the correct server. Still could take a while though.
squigipapa
05-04-2004, 23:21
Whoa!! That is a good idea, have yet to see the DClone... that sure would simplify attaching to the correct server. Still could take a while though.
I guess it would depend on how the game handeled it. If you tried to create a game and it failed immeaditly, and you could try and create another right away, until you finally hit the ip you wanted, it would be alright. But if when you try and create one, it takes a couple of minutes to time out, it may not be worth it. I guess I could just throw in a quick ipchains rule, and test it out, If I'm not too lazy tonight I'll try it and let you guys know how it goes.. configureing firewall rules.. on my own network, I'm such a cheater.. :innocent:
TopheavyHookjaw
05-04-2004, 23:41
This has to be one of the better threads that I've read in a long time. Lots of good arguments and no "Shut up n00b" comments (yet).
The M-W dictionary defines cheat as: 1 a : to practice fraud or trickery b : to violate rules dishonestly.
IMHO, using any hack violates the rules and therefore is considered cheating...and let's face it, most hacks are used to practice fraud (i.e. dupes, trade hacks) or trickery (i.e. triggerhacks, PK hacks.)
As for Map Hacks, since the rules (or better yet, parameters) of the game only allow you to see parts of the game that you are in or have been in, a map hack violates those conditions and is considered cheating.
However, back to a comment that I made a while back, in this society, it is only cheating if you get caught.
...but that is a story for another day.
Bongo Fury
05-04-2004, 23:50
Good post, and a good discussion. I hope it can continue without someone flaming and getting the thing closed.
I think there's two ways of looking at it. Each person makes the personal choice what is cheating and what is not. But that just leads to a wide variety of playstyles, and rampant rationalizations for just about any behavior. If you leave it to individual choice, we're stuck with the least strict interpresation as the de facto standard.
The other way to look at it is to annoint an authority figure and use their judgement as the 'law'. IMO, this is what we have with D2/B-net, with Blizzard being the authority. And their 'laws' are spelled out in the D2 EULA and the B-net TOUA. These documents establish what is 'legal' in the game and on B-net. Anything that goes against these can be considered as cheating.
So going back to the original premise, I agree it IS cheating to use information derived from illegal purposes. This does not mean it is cheating to use all information shared about the game, only that derived from decompiling the game and/or studying the code. So in practical terms, it is cheating to run the 'level 85' areas of the game (Mausoleum, Pit, Ancient Tunnels, etc,), but it would not be cheating to run an area where player experience has shown it to be profitable. It's a very fine distinction, and two people could even be playing the exact same area, it's just a question of where the information came from, legal or illegal means.
The use of illegitimate information is similar to the use of duped items, but with one difference. Bilzzard specifically states that making dupes, and using dupes are illegal, each in separate sections of the EULA/TOUA. They state that reverse engineering the game is illegal. But no specific mention is made of utilizing such information after the fact. So I guess you could say using reverse engineered information is against the spirit of the law, but not against the letter of the law.
Programs like maphack, or clone finder software are clearly cheating as per the EULA/TOUA. Any third party program that modifies gameplay is cheating. So by seeing the map ahead, you are changing how you play the game, ergo it's cheating. By using a clone finder you're seeing DC more often than normal. You're modifying gameplay, so it's cheating.
It seems to me that reading these forums is sort of like going to school. You go in and discuss things with other students and the teacher. Study, prepare, in order to be more knowledgeable.
Maphack seems to me that it is more like getting the answer sheet for the tests and not having to worry about any of the processes on how you arrive at the answer.
One group tries to learn the process to improve their gameplay, while the other just gets a go here, go here, watch out, tele there.
In class, if you want to know more about a subject, you can go read more books (theoretically :lol: ) to know more than other students.
I can say that I've learned a lot from reading the forums. How to prepare myself better against monsters and people, but it's about the process rather than the answer.
Geniuz[TUW]
06-04-2004, 01:50
and knowing that gloams are common in ws 3 isn't really that different from knowing that there are gloams around the corner.
Never saw 1 gloam in ws3 :(
And yes IMHO MH is cheating. I think the same about netstatting and everything else. Reading into the MPQ's just saved us an awful amound of time. People would have figured it out anyway. How could any1 ever say that MH aint cheating :( C'mon you see everything.
squigipapa
06-04-2004, 02:14
'] Reading into the MPQ's just saved us an awful amound of time. People would have figured it out anyway. How could any1 ever say that MH aint cheating :( C'mon you see everything.
Useing Maphack to find Durance lvl 3 stairway, just saves me an awful amount of time, I would figure it out anyway. :)
I'm not trying to be an a*s or anything, but really when it comes to cheating, or what is considered a cheat, I don't think there is any solid line. Really, the whole thing comes down to morality, and as we all know morality is different from person to person. I could look at it and say, :
"well, in single player, when I've completed an area with a character, the map is open. So on battle.net, I won't use maphack the first time I do an area with a character, but once I've passed an area and decide to do it again, then I'll use it."
I mean I don't think anyone here would say that every person who plays single player is a cheater, but they have the entire map opened once they've completed the area. I'm not saying that any of this is right or wrong, just bringing up some points to think about ..
and ya, for thoes that have mencioned it, it is cool, that everyone in here can discuss this maturely and bring fourth different points of view.. Try haveing this discussion on the battle.net forums.. :)
I respect your oppinion on on this, I'm just trying to understand how you can think useing netstat to tell you what server you're currently connected to is cheating. Netstat dosen't help you connect to the right server, hell, I've tried for like 3 hours to connect to a certian server, and then just gave up cause it was way to boreing. But I can't see any way that it could be considered a cheat. Well, actually I can, if you (not you but 'you' in general) think that Blizzard intended for a user to start up the game, and play, and do nothing else, then I guess you could consider netstat a cheat. However, if you believe that, then you would also have to play the rest of the game by the strictest standards. Like, Never using any knowledge that was gained from someone hacking the game files etc. Its possible to play the game like this, but not very practical. Netstat is totally outside of the game, it's simply a connection on my network. So what if I don't use netstat, but rather, check outgoing connections on my firewall? I just don't see how reading an outgoing connection on my firewall could ever be considered cheating, now, If I configured my firewall so it would only allow me to connect to one specific IP on port 4000, so I could just open the game and try creating until I finally hit the IP I wanted, without ever having to alt+tab out to see what IP I was connected to ... come to think of it, that's not a half bad Idea.. :) .. oh well.. :clap:
Good post, and well thought out. However, I think you missed my main point. I was trying to draw a distinction between "cheating" and "wrong", if that makes sense. I think in the strictest terms, using netstat is cheating, however by no means would I say it's wrong. In fact I think it is a great idea, and I'm impressed with the person who was able to figure it out. I'm also grateful to the people who posted about it here so I could learn about it.
After considering my comparisons with speeding and maphack, I think it's a really good metaphor. I could gain an advantage on my neighbor by arriving home from work 10 seconds earlier. Then I can play 10 seconds more Diablo!! :winner: Note to self... :lol:
0takuPryd3
06-04-2004, 03:22
Blizzard does not want Diablo II users using Maphack. It also does not want its users to have mules, to transfer items, to be rushed, to be given items, to be "twinked out". Now, I don't advocate Maphack at all; it is clearly cheating in many respects which have already been pointed out. I'm merely saying that people shouldn't define cheating based on what Blizzard expects of its users.
CoonerTheRed
06-04-2004, 06:58
']And yes IMHO MH is cheating. I think the same about netstatting and everything else. Reading into the MPQ's just saved us an awful amound of time. People would have figured it out anyway. How could any1 ever say that MH aint cheating :( C'mon you see everything.
"shop-bot just saves me a whole lotta time. i mean, i woulda bought the item eventually anyway..."
It also does not want its users to have mules, to transfer items, to be rushed, to be given items, to be "twinked out".
out of curiousity, where does it say this?
Bongo, a lot of good points there. But unfortunately, like real life, b-net is somewhat unenforcable to the nitty-gritty detail. And so, as in real life, we are forced to make our own decisions, and regulate ourselves and those around us. So just as many people break the speed-limit, but only to an extent that they consider "safe and reasonable," we do (and must do) the same in regards to bnet cheating.
It seems to me that reading these forums is sort of like going to school. You go in and discuss things with other students and the teacher. Study, prepare, in order to be more knowledgeable.
Maphack seems to me that it is more like getting the answer sheet for the tests and not having to worry about any of the processes on how you arrive at the answer.
BINGO!!!....
The big "T"
06-04-2004, 17:32
Good Stuff!
Personally, I am not a fan of D2 hacks and cheats. Buuut, at the same time i don't have strong negative feelings towards those individuals that use them. I play the game as I see fit (read: according to my own personal code of morals and ethics), and I respect the fact that others are free to do so as well. To each their own.
The beauty of the world in which we play (D2 and it's various incarnations SC, SCL, Classic, etc) is the that Blizzard has given us broad boundaries within which to define how we play the game, and a context big enough for each of us to claim a piece as our own (not really ours, but i think you know what i mean).
I dislike pking, but except it as part of the game. Dupping is incredibly annoying, but unless the blizzard god decides to do something about it it is part of the game. The same can be said about MH, server hunting, etc. My Diablo 2 world is very similar to many of you, yet it is also very different because it is mine.
Are we cheating? It's all in the eyes of the beholder.
Blizzard does not want Diablo II users using Maphack. It also does not want its users to have mules, to transfer items, to be rushed, to be given items, to be "twinked out". Now, I don't advocate Maphack at all; it is clearly cheating in many respects which have already been pointed out. I'm merely saying that people shouldn't define cheating based on what Blizzard expects of its users.
Well, I know that Blizz doesn't want us using MH. That's why I quit using it, because otherwise I would still use it. Durance 2 is too big for my baba to run quickly, and MH would be nice in that way. 1.09 it wasn't a big deal, but 1.10 - too annoying.
However, I'm pretty sure Blizz encourages muling. I think they've even published tips on how to mule. Pretty sure I remember reading something at one time, sorry I don't have the link. Rushing is neither encouraged or discouraged, although you could count the 1.10 changes as discouraging it in an informal fashion.
Interesting to me that now that MH is gone and rushing is more difficult (I hate doing a rush without MH and I won't do it any more), a lot of people have quit the game. I enjoyed being able to skip through the monotonous stuff and play the end game. I liked the 1.09 mfing too. 1.10 is what a lot of people asked for, but now I see a mass exodus from the game. :flip:
Sorry, got OT there. Ooops.
Well, I know that Blizz doesn't want us using MH. That's why I quit using it, because otherwise I would still use it. Durance 2 is too big for my baba to run quickly, and MH would be nice in that way. 1.09 it wasn't a big deal, but 1.10 - too annoying.
However, I'm pretty sure Blizz encourages muling. I think they've even published tips on how to mule. Pretty sure I remember reading something at one time, sorry I don't have the link. Rushing is neither encouraged or discouraged, although you could count the 1.10 changes as discouraging it in an informal fashion.
Interesting to me that now that MH is gone and rushing is more difficult (I hate doing a rush without MH and I won't do it any more), a lot of people have quit the game. I enjoyed being able to skip through the monotonous stuff and play the end game. I liked the 1.09 mfing too. 1.10 is what a lot of people asked for, but now I see a mass exodus from the game. :flip:
Sorry, got OT there. Ooops.
Taken from the Battle.net FAQ:
"What is Blizzard's policy on transferring items between characters or "muling"?
The transferring of items between Diablo II characters is not supported by Blizzard. Users should be warned that attempts to transfer items between characters online are risky and Blizzard is not responsible for lost items. Storage space is limited in Diablo II both for performance and storage space issues and because the designers wanted players to make decisions as to which items to keep and which items must be thrown away or sold. "
Appears to me they dont want people muling items. As for maphack its almost as rampant as it was in .09. In hell baal runs in the time it took my hammerdin to kill Eldritch there would be a tp up in throne and i could kill him in maybe 20 seconds
Geniuz[TUW]
07-04-2004, 00:12
Not supported is something else then their agressive stand against cheaters :) I think, that everything you can do within the game ( Muling, rushing, boosting, enz.. enz.. ) shouldnt be considered as a cheat. Blizzard made it possible so of course human beings will abuse it. But using a program, of any kind, outside the game is just cheating.. Well, at least that's how I think about it.
And to all the people who say, shopbot or mh saves me time, I would have found it anyway.. Of course but when? Being able to do, for example, 50 more mephiruns in a hour because of MH, you'll likely be more rich then some1 who didnt do those extra runs because he doesn't MH. Not to mention, that he risks dying. With MH its kinda stupid to die :flip:
And shopbot users.. If u shop for 1 hour and didnt find the item u were looking for, would u have shopped further? Maybe it would have taken u a week or more to get the item u wanted. Now u got it while u were sleeping?
I dont use cheats of any kind, and when I hear some1 in my game does use it, I'll just leave. Same counts for all the high lvl HC players. If they use MH, chicken or anything what makes the game much easier ( and its a third party program ) they just dont deserve their lvl. Luckily for me, I got a lot of friends playing the game without MH, I know this for sure because they are real life friends, and can play in non cheating parties all the time.
HR-Tecira
07-04-2004, 00:53
Interesting thread. In my own way I have to be labled a cheater since I shamelessly exploit my home network of computers to allow safe muling and self rushing. It lets me get mules to hell so I can pick up extra forges and sockets and get low lvl duelers set up with all quests :). Not to mention that when I want to level a special project fast I can give the level one character high level enchant and bo ;).
If you want to try something that has to be cheating try puting high lvl enchant on a level 20 char with a ravenclaw bow and let him clear normal cows on his own to get to lvl 24.
CoonerTheRed
07-04-2004, 01:44
']
And to all the people who say, shopbot or mh saves me time, I would have found it anyway.. Of course but when? Being able to do, for example, 50 more mephiruns in a hour because of MH, you'll likely be more rich then some1 who didnt do those extra runs because he doesn't MH. Not to mention, that he risks dying. With MH its kinda stupid to die :flip:
And shopbot users.. If u shop for 1 hour and didnt find the item u were looking for, would u have shopped further? Maybe it would have taken u a week or more to get the item u wanted. Now u got it while u were sleeping?
um, i think you missed the point of those statements... i was making a comparison to someone who had said "looking in the mpqs isn't cheating, since the information would have gotten out anyway by experimentation. it just takes less time"
edit: note to self, gotta get 2nd copy of d2 to start cheating like Tecira... :D
Geniuz[TUW]
07-04-2004, 01:59
Then I didn't miss the point... How could some1 compare MH with info written on a website after it has been collected by all kinds of players.. Diabloii.net supports most of the d2 community so info would have been ( and has been ) collected..
cyradis2003
07-04-2004, 02:17
... it's about the process rather than the answer.
I think you need a prize for best Life Quote here!!!
:winner:
I have kind of a rep for sarcasm I think but that is really a great sentiment and can be aplied in many aspects of non-diablo life.
I am from Florida so we all deal with annual debates on the FCAT (this is a standardized test that was implemented by our illustrated leader's slightly slowwer younger brother Jeb to decide which of our public schools will receive adequate funding for the year. [and yes I know illustrious is the correct word but if the president don't need vocab and grammer why do I? {woot tripple parenthases!!!}] The schools that test poorly lose out on the money train so teachers now teach certain grades SOLELY to pass that one test) I can honestly say that while reading, math and the other basics are invaluable to everyone the process of learning is more important than about half of the subjects we have in school. If you know HOW to learn you will go much farther than if you were just programed to spout historical dates and the state birds.
At any rate that concludes the soapbox portion of todays post, I now return you to your regularly scheduled programing already in progress....
edit - I am sorry - I used a banned word up there (no not a 4 letter one but still a flame even if I was directing it towards my Govenor)
IamTheTest
07-04-2004, 03:34
Perhaps an interesting idea is the quantinization of cheating...is it more wrong to use maphack to check out a PKers gear or to find the stairs faster? If we can all agree on a basic quantinization of cheating then we can construct a better arguement for using forums or for not MHing. If it is all wrong, then who is more wrong?
Quote from my Physics of Electricity and Magnetism prof. "I will give you the answer...you must give me the reason." (A.O. Evwaraye)
"shop-bot just saves me a whole lotta time. i mean, i woulda bought the item eventually anyway..."
I wish I had downloaded and used shop-bot. I remember spending several weeks trying to shop a cruel war pike of quickness. I settled for a 296% of excellence. Wasted time, and I should have used a shopper instead. Is shop bot cheating? Yeah, sure. But it would have totally been worth it.
I hate that part of the game, why should I have to spend all my time to make a good build? I guess the only reason I didn't dl it is because I didn't know a guaranteed safe site and didn't want to spend the time looking.
Perhaps an interesting idea is the quantinization of cheating...is it more wrong to use maphack to check out a PKers gear or to find the stairs faster? If we can all agree on a basic quantinization of cheating then we can construct a better arguement for using forums or for not MHing. If it is all wrong, then who is more wrong?
Quote from my Physics of Electricity and Magnetism prof. "I will give you the answer...you must give me the reason." (A.O. Evwaraye)
My line is when you impact others in a person-to-person competition. Pking to me isn't a competition, so my line isn't drawn there.
Using MH for duelling, or laddering to get the highest level character - to me those would be the wrong thing to do.
MH for mfing doesn't adversely affect others, unless you count cheaper and more available items an adverse affect. That's why I never objected to botters, because they made the realms better for me. I still can't understand why people have such strong negative reactions to botters. I just don't buy the lag argument. Botters do their thing at night or in the middle of the day, when most people are busy anyway.
I think as follow:
cheating is changing the game so, that you can see/do/hear/etc more then normal (advantage/dis)
MH makes this possible, so mh is a cheat (not a hack).
Coming to this forums is the same when people say RTFM. Its about knowledge/experience.
"well, in single player, when I've completed an area with a character, the map is open. So on battle.net, I won't use maphack the first time I do an area with a character, but once I've passed an area and decide to do it again, then I'll use it."
I mean I don't think anyone here would say that every person who plays single player is a cheater, but they have the entire map opened once they've completed the area. I'm not saying that any of this is right or wrong, just bringing up some points to think about ..
the manual says something like "various worlds online".
When you purchase the game or games and you use them without altering the game, or using other programs to alter the way the game is played then you arent illegit.
There is such a thing as "pure game", if you want to play "pure game" then you have that choice to do so and I doubt many people around he play "pure game" as in no rush, no twink, no skip, no mule, no trade....etc. Basically what one would have to do on single player without the use of mods and things like that.
I have done this in 1.09, and actually did it a lot for something differnt. Many people do it now in "prepare and planned teams" such as TU, SCD, KTA...etc and it is great fun, but I doubt tht many of those people beleive that while playing in those setting that is the only time they dont cheat!
Blizz has a 5 min save and frankly I see no reson for it especially if they dont want you to mule. They mention muling, and warn about loss potential but do not consider it as a "no no" thus is not cheating. Blizz supports fansites and their forums and the conversations, guides, hints and all that thus this is not considered a "no no".
Although not really the intention of this thread, but basically this seems more of an attempt to justifiy ones illegit means of doing things buy taking what is considered proper and twisting it out of shape in order to present it as a cheat.
I have no issues with MH user as long as they dont screw my game up.
I have little respect for botters but I can understand its use by some and feel it is wrong, and bad for the game. Many people spend a lot of time and never see these items and once they do get them, or an extra one now they try and trade and it is not even worth trading as it is actually more valuable to them on a mule in case they die because they know they may never find it again, where as the botter find one a month while he is asleep or at school or work or doing chores or homework. Sorry people but this isnt right and you can never justify it.
If you use bots, or you use MH then you have implemented a cruch in your game play. By implementing this cruch you have taken yourself down a notch and have no right to consider yourself a top player, or legit player, or for some 1337 whatever.
I have less respect for dupe users and dupers than I do for the MH or botter, but the simple fact is they are all one in the same if you boil it down. You are simply illegit thus weak and have falling into lazyness and or dependency on items.
I always love seeing the illegit try and twist things to make themselves look better.
There is nothing more funney than some dupe or hacked out nub calling people noobs, I can equate that to some kid hating his teacher for flunking him when he didnt do anyhting in the class, or a kid *****ing becasue he never plays but he is alos missing practices, not putting out the effort.
Shortcuts in life make you weak. Many of you people have made the argument many times "Its just a game", and yes, sure it is just a game, but what you do in this game dirrectly corrrsponds to what you would do in real life when left all alone and no witnesses. If you will cheat at this game when you know you cant be caught, you will cheat on a test, or write a paper word for word out of a book, or copy you older prothers term paper, or take that $5 off the talbe that has been there for a few days that someone has seemed to forget about.
It is weak, it is wrong, and many many people cave into weakness and it is part of human nature.
Tell me, what is so fun about having everything just given to you, no suprise, no actual find, just come homw and open character and find tals set like Santa stopped by? Is that really fun?
Maybe Blizzs next patch they should just make an armory where you can just stop in and pick out any item you want. Hum today ill be a lvl 89 Tals sorc.......hit a few keys and a few buttons and wala there is a lvl 89 Tals sorc.
You play your game and i will play mine, but dont go screwing with mine and by God dont be calling yourself some great player when you use all these cruchs/cheats/hacks and you best take note of the real players of this game that go out every day and earn what they have and excell with lessor earned gear with out hughe warnign signs telling them "wrong way" "nasty boss" "shrine here" "chest here".
Quote "what you do in this game directly corresponds to what you would do in real life when left all alone and no witnesses..."
Easily your best point IMHO....
Quote "what you do in this game directly corresponds to what you would do in real life when left all alone and no witnesses..."
Easily your best point IMHO....
IMHO it's absolutely wrong, however.
I'm not going to go kill someone because no one else is watching. Extreme example, yes, but no less true for being so. I won't steal a pen from work or make a copy for personal use at work. That's because it's important and meaningful to me. However, actions within a GAME that don't directly impact others, I don't care a bit!!
I won't pk, because it might annoy other people. It goes against my personal ethics. I'm not going to judge others for it, though, because IT'S JUST A GAME.
I play D2 to have fun, not to compete. The attitude of wanting to prove yourself better than others, "I'm so rich(or have high level characters, or ...), I must be the best." I guess it's understandable, but I don't care. I could care less if every single person on this forum is a better player than I am. THAT's why I don't object to botters.
I think people falsely equate D2 richness with their self-worth. If you need to be rich/good at a game to feel okay about yourself... You know where I'm going here. If people could just let go of that idea and realize that they are good people whether they play 10 million hours of D2 or 10 hours of D2, they would realize that botters aren't better than them. Don't feel like botters are better than you, they are just people who don't want to play a ton but want to try the best items.
I understand the annoyance that a botter can beat you in a duel. I think it's immoral to use botted stuff for duelling, so I can understand that feeling. However, it's still JUST A GAME.
So in conclusion, I take it personally that you equate actions in A GAME with real life actions. I like to think that I carefully consider most of my actions, and act thoughtfully almost all the time. Of course I mess up really bad some times, but it's not for lack of trying. :hanky:
have a great day, everyone.
You arent the first nor the last to argue that statement, and the statement i am sure doesnt hold true for everyone but i garuntee you that it holds true a lot more than you beleive.
I have met people that hack and cheat games in the past and know a hacker of DII personally and you know what is funny is that not only did he hack and cheat at online games he also hacked other things, cheat on his wife and eventually stole his grandmother blind and is currently in prison for attempting and succeeding at hacking bankmachines and got busted.
I have a son that is 18, he is one of the best young men you will ever encounter, but yet when left to his own morals and principles skipped school constantly, eventually dropped out and is now trying to get his GED, but he wouldnt fathom PKing someone or cheating at an online game. He even got on my *** for using MH shortly before I stopped using it.
The measure of a person isnt what they do in public although that is how we are judged, where the real measure of a person is, is what they do when they think they cant be caught, what can they get away with while nobody is looking.
Even the best people at times wonder "could I get away with this" when they know it is wrong. Many times they realize that its just not right, other times they do it and soon realize that it is wrong and stop and other times it becomes thier nature.
Humans are creatures of habit, once one starts a habit of being dishonest or illegit it is way too easy to take everything with the same thought process and just go to ****. I have seen this, i was in the beginning process of "going to ****" once and pulled myself out of it while I watched several of my good friends continue down taht path because they just couldnt give up the "easy life".
My friends, there is no "easy life", and every step you take in life builds your character. What you do every day, day in and day out in work and in play all influence the final outcome of what you will become. This is just a simple fact.
True it is just a game. PKing is part of the game regardless of whether you like or don't like it. If stealing is part of the game..then steal away. I do tend to agree that ethics and honour apply to whatever you do, reagrdless of whether it is a game (even if you are only competing against yourself). Not that I am perfect (far from). Not that I haven't cheated (I have). Just that I would always like to try and do better.
I am thinking of a line from IIRC Open Range (not a great movie by the way) where the "kid" in the group of oaters (there is always one) is caught cheating at cards and one of the old guys says something like "never lose a man's respect (or was it trust?) over a game of cards".
Personally I don't really care about botting, MH etc. probably because I don't really duel and have never PKed anyone (as long as no-one is using MH in a game with me - it gives me the willies when someone knows everything you pick up before you identify it).
I just wonder what's the point of playing if you do use that stuff. I got bored with a few bulids that were too easy (although I am sure they would have gotten harder if I kept going) and feel the point of a game is to challenge yourself and not just walk through turning over rocks, popping chests and killing the monsters you can easily handle just see what will pop out.
Just another 2 cents.
TopheavyHookjaw
07-04-2004, 21:47
D*mn Stinger, there's some good deep stuff there. I only hope that it will reach a few. I wrote some stuff very similar to yours in the past but I pretty much stopped. I had the feeling that I just shouting in the wind and wasting my breath.
I'm with you. What we do when nobody is looking is a very good indicator of our morality.
The fact is, in cyberspace, we are all semi-anonymous and this is very similar to not being seen. I think somebody once said just take a look at the character in the Naked Man (I think that was the title of the movie about the invisble man) once he was allowed to behave in a way that he really wanted to.
I disagree with your interpretation. This is not about them supporting muling. This is about Realm performance and the possibility of game crashes. Blizzard will not be responsible for lost items. So if you mule, and your game goes down, tisk tisk. If storage space was REALLY and issue, they could have limited the number of accounts per cd. Which, in fact, might have generated more sales of the game in order for people to have more accounts.
Nah I think this FAQ is little more than a warning.
Maphack is a totally different issue.
Taken from the Battle.net FAQ:
"What is Blizzard's policy on transferring items between characters or "muling"?
The transferring of items between Diablo II characters is not supported by Blizzard. Users should be warned that attempts to transfer items between characters online are risky and Blizzard is not responsible for lost items. Storage space is limited in Diablo II both for performance and storage space issues and because the designers wanted players to make decisions as to which items to keep and which items must be thrown away or sold. "
Appears to me they dont want people muling items. As for maphack its almost as rampant as it was in .09. In hell baal runs in the time it took my hammerdin to kill Eldritch there would be a tp up in throne and i could kill him in maybe 20 seconds
The big "T"
07-04-2004, 22:56
D2 is a lot of different things to a lot of different people. For some it is an opportunity to try on a personality other then there own. For others, it is competition. For some, it is an escape from reality. The list goes on and on. To make steadfast judgements about other players and the manner in which they play the game seems a bit short-sighted and self-righteous. My point isn't that I believe Stinger to be wrong, but I certainly can't say with absolute certainty that he is right. No one here has any better insight into how D2 should be played then anyone else. No one here has the inside track on defining what is cheating and what is not. We do have the right to decide how we (as individuals) will play the game. Personally, I try to adhere to the following they work for me:
Assumptions are the mother of all f*^@-ups avaoid them at all costs.
Do unto others as u would have them do unto u
Lead from the front
Walk your talk
Knowledge + experience can generate wisdom (not a given so get as much of both as possible).
Learn from your mistakes.
I create my reality
I am ultimately responsible
Human beings are hypocritics (it's unavoidable, somewhere, sometime you will be one).
Change happens get used to it.
CoonerTheRed
07-04-2004, 23:11
i agree with some of that, not with the rest. Out of curiousity, what do you guys think about character editors, etc, in sp? Or, for example, mods? Do you think that cheating in single player means that you are a "cheater" in life? Personally, I enjoy playing around with computers, programming, etc, so with some games, writing scripts etc is in itself a game. And I don't (and I doubt you do) have a problem with that in single player. "Playing within the lines" is only important if there are others that are affected by your line (hence Mods, where groups of people "play within different lines") So I think that your statement that "playing game attitude reflects on real life attitude" is only possibly true in a game in which you interact with others, and your actions in game affect others.
As another note, I think there are a good number of people out there who don't realize that their actions are affecting others- people who shop-bot, or other bots who make arguments like Sparrow's (I like whoever's example of the person who tosses the spair .09 cruel on a mule since it's worthless, when otherwise [without shopbot {haha, i can do it too cy}] they would have traded it for something nice.)
SP is Sp, it effects nobody but yourself.
OPEN is there there, and is left open so those that want to tinker with hacks can go there and make lvl 999999 charcters and duel or whatever, or make hacked weapons or whatever. This is the place for that.
Closed is that it is, it is a place for no mods, no hacks.
People are allowed to beat each other to a pulp in the boxing ring, but if those same two go out in public and do it there will be payment for the act.
There is a time and a place for many things but some people just cant handle that they were givin a place to do thier deeds and have to go elsewhere and do it where they arent suppose to.
Anyone who bots/hacks knows damn good and well that it effects others as now they dont have to trade for that item that someone else may of spent weeks shopping for.
I have people I play wiht that are the biggest haxors you could think of in OPEN PLAY, but in closed they have very little, play legit and have a blast. They know where the line is and dont cross it.
CoonerTheRed
08-04-2004, 01:24
Anyone who bots/hacks knows damn good and well that it effects others as now they dont have to trade for that item that someone else may of spent weeks shopping for.
.
i really don't think that's the case. there are a lot of people out there who say, much like spero's argument, they they simply don't play d2 often enough to have the time to mf and build a huge item base to try out the things they want to try out, and so they use a bot. they mean no harm to others by it, they are just helping their own gaming experience along. They simply don't realize that by botting, then trading their botted gear for other stuff, they (as a global they) kill the market, and have adverse affects on others. Personally, I don't agree with this (i don't play enough, but i just make my way with my sucky gear :D ) but i can understand the motivation.
Wow, so many good posts! I'm really enjoying this thread. I was reading through and found a ton of things I wanted to quote. Too many to do it. So I'll just say that I agree with a lot of things that many people here are saying, including Stinger and others who totally disagree with my argument. But I disagree with a lot as well.
Morality is what you do when no one's watching. I totally agree and do my best to live by it. Doesn't apply to a conversation about a game unless you are hurting others, IMO. Sorry I said it before, but people keep saying it does, I don't buy the "cheat in a game in any way and you'll become a criminal" argument. Come on, convince me!!. :thumbsup:
Someone already said this well, but I'll say it my way. I think it's only right that I should be able to decide what I enjoy. In the context of a game, I don't feel guilty about doing anything as long as it doesn't directly impact others. I have to admit that it bothers me that some here (Stinger perhaps) would condemn me for this. Otherwise I wouldn't be posting, just reading. :)
Some general statements I read that bothered me.
1. Botting doesn't ruin the economy. Botting improves the economy by making even rare items less expensive to get. Cheaper items cannot ever equal a bad economy.
2. Using the "ruin the economy" argument to claim that botters/botting is bad makes no sense because the exact same argument applies to people who play a lot. Are people who play a lot bad? I don't think so.
3. The relative value of my spare cruel would not change without shop bot around. Now, without shop bot probably no one (much fewer, anyhoo) would have the top most elite cruels, I agree with that. CCBOQ or the like. But those were still worth a lot. I will never have one, I'm sure of that. Bots don't decrease the value of just one item, they increase how common all items are. The relative worth of an item doesn't change (hence zero effect on trading). The bot just gave everyone on bnet a better chance to try out a CCBOQ. I think that's a benefit, and I don't believe anyone would disagree - with the possible exception of the one person who lived the game, spent a google hours playing and found one for themselves. That person might be angry that someone else got one "free". I think that person has very misplaced priorities at the least. The phrase "get a life" occurs to me.
4. This game is not life. What I do in the game doesn't equate to what I do in life. Did I already say that? :flip:
Unholy_VI
08-04-2004, 04:37
Quote "what you do in this game directly corresponds to what you would do in real life when left all alone and no witnesses..."
Easily your best point IMHO....
I'm in my mid 30's.
I've played rpg's online since around 1994. My absolute favorite part of these games is PK and making the most evil villians I can make.
If you ever met me in real life you would see that on the balance I'm a pretty nice guy. In my 30+ years on this planet I have yet to kill some random stranger (Or anyone else for that matter) because I knew I would get away with it.
I think that part of the reason I like to play games like Diablo II and muds is becuase in those environments I get to explore alternate fantasy realms where I'm not bound by responsabilities, laws, and guilt like I am in real life.
One time when I was out with my sister we ran into a girl that had tried to kill my sister before (My sister is REALLY wild, hangs with bad crowds) The girl came up and started yelling at my sister and calling her names and sutff. I beat that girl within an inch of her life. She almost lost her sight in one eye. that was the first time I ever hurt anyone in real life and it will be the last. Even though I never got into any trouble over it and the girl (thankfully) recoverd fully, the way that felt...
From now on my sister can take care of her own problems (most of which she brings on herself) becuase I'm not cut out to lead that kind of life. I enjoy sports and I practice Judo, but my opponent's safety is always my first concern. winnnig is somewhere around 3rd or fourth. I like to win, but if I was to win a match and the opponent was hurt becuase of something reckless that I did in the match I would have a hard time to live with myself.
So if you want to be that simplistic to think how a person behaves in a game environment is how they are IRL I'm not going to try and change your mind.
I will say though that this PKer is MUCH different IRL than in the game. You can ask my twin little girls if you don't believe me!
UH6
:innocent:
Not really trying to say that everything translates. As I said subsequent PKing IS part of the game and I have no problem with it. It's just another way to play. If I thought violence in the game translated to violence in life then I wouldn't play it, let my son play it or younger son even see it.
I thought Stinger's point, with which I agree, is that if you are dishonest in playing a game you will, or are more likely to be, dishonest in real life. Games are a part of real life. You are not in the game. You are playing the game in real life. If you are cheating in playing the game you are cheating in real life.
I guess what I read into that quote was not as clear as I thought.....
Edit add on Spero...I agree that cheating in a game will not lead to being a hardened criminal...but cheating may lead to other actions in other aspects of ones' life that are dishonest, even if minor transgressions. I guess I just think that honesty leads to happiness and provides a better example that one wants to set for their children no matter if the action is criminal or just cheating at a video game.
(Sheesh I better stop posting to this or I'm gonna have to find a pulpit).
I only read the first page so I apologize if someone already said this, but this is how I view it.
Cheating is a word, that is all. Cheating is what you want it to be. There are plenty of people who run pindle bots, maphack, chicken, etc, and they'll tell you straight to your face they're not cheating, it's how they want to play the game. It IS a game after all, how you play it is up to you. As long as what you're doing doesn't effect anyone else in a direct way (I.E: drop hacking and then PKing the person while they're disconnected), it's your game play it how you wish. If you think maphack is unfair and a cheat then don't use it, but don't start telling other people how they can and can't play.
Personally I use maphack, and I have no problems admitting it. I won't go into details justifying why I use it, I don't need to justify it. I enjoy the game more with maphack than without, that is all. I do draw the line at maphack because I think using things like chicken and pindle bots cheapen the game and take the point out of it. You could easilly say this about maphack too but I don't feel that way about it. It's all point of view.
Basically what i'm saying is do what you feel is right to do, and don't worry about what other people think.
MoUsE_WiZ
08-04-2004, 09:01
1. Botting doesn't ruin the economy. Botting improves the economy by making even rare items less expensive to get. Cheaper items cannot ever equal a bad economy.
2. Using the "ruin the economy" argument to claim that botters/botting is bad makes no sense because the exact same argument applies to people who play a lot. Are people who play a lot bad? I don't think so.
I sort of skimmed everything from the point I last posted to the point where this thread got to being long, so forgive me if you've mentioned this...
Would you support duping?
Duping, by your reasoning, equally does not ruin the economy. It takes 1.08 Valors and makes them common enough for everyone to have them. Or in the case of 1.10, it takes Jahs and Zods and lets "everyone" have them. It doesn't bother me at all because I wasn't going to have a chance at owning any of those items regardless of how duped they are.
So next time a dupe comes out, that doesn't require a third party program, so you know it's safe, will you use it Spero? That duping does infact save even MORE time obtaining items than botting.
The first problem with that line of thinking, is that Diablo II is a game of time and sometimes luck. The purpose of the game isn't to come up with a godly build to slaughter everything in PvM games (although that is a part of if). The general purpose is to spend time either levelling, or finding items to help you level more efficiently. The only other reason to play this game that I see is for the purpose of PKing, but since you do not do that, why bother continuing on with this game. No part of the PvM aspect of this game requires any real skill, and the only sense of accomplishment* I myself ever recieve from the game is obtained by knowing that I spent the time to MF and level and eventually build a good workable character. The only joy* I ever feel is when I find a good usable item, or level up. Now if a bot is doing both of those things for me, what is really left? Taking my 95 (levelled solely by pindlebotting) Tal's (found by the same means) out to do a few baal runs? Bleh, no thanks, why bother?
Then of course there are those who spend all their time at work botting and all their time at home running the ladder or dueling. Those people DO have a negative impact on the general b.net community, by either being able to dominate the ladder (theoretically, I'm not aware of any on east who actually do this...to the best of my knowledge the top players aren't botters, although they could be) or by dominating** the PvP scene by using gear those who choose to play legitly could never really hope to obtain.
The second thing I have against your reasoning would be that, if shopbotting doesn't ruin the economy, then why not dupe. If you're duping to obtain ordinarily unobtainable items, then why not use exploits to create items that never existed. Once you've got an inventory full of Hex charms and are equipped with the best of White items, why bother actually levelling and use the skill bug combined with a +1 holyfire scepter to level your new paladin to 99 in a matter of hours by clearing the cows solo in 8 player games in under 30 seconds? Infact, why not just revert D2 back to how things were in D1? The legit people can play nothing but private games with people they know and never venture out to publics to meet new people for fear of getting AK'd or TK'd?
Once the first step is taken, it is only a matter of time before someone takes the next step. I'm not saying that you personally would go that far, but there's no real reason to stop others from doing so. If one person is willing to walk partway down the path, there's no reason for others to not go further.
*rather than accomplishment or joy, I really just mean that finding items and levelling, appart from PvP, are the only fun I get from the game.
**dominate is what a barb with an eth Doom/BOTD/Zodded Death Cleaver should be able to do...what they actually do is another question.
Personally I use maphack, and I have no problems admitting it. I won't go into details justifying why I use it, I don't need to justify it. I enjoy the game more with maphack than without, that is all. I do draw the line at maphack because I think using things like chicken and pindle bots cheapen the game and take the point out of it. You could easilly say this about maphack too but I don't feel that way about it. It's all point of view.
I am curious. Did you pay the $15 to mousepad for this? I did a quick search and found that he charges thru paypal fot the rights to download maphack. Personally I could care less what you do regarding mh, since we do not game together. But I was curious on another note as well, You state you do not use chicken, is that an option? My son had a very old version of mh. So old you could not see other players gear, it just took away the darkness and you could see monsters. I thought later versions automatically came with chicken. Could you explain further?
I also know that when 1.10 was released, his old version of mh was unusable and he deleted it.
Think about eth bug, ith items, dupes, hostile wp bug, rogue merc town kill bug.......
What I want to say is
BLIZZARD IS CHEATER
Blizzard cheat us, we cheat blizzard, fair.
I am curious. Did you pay the $15 to mousepad for this? I did a quick search and found that he charges thru paypal fot the rights to download maphack. Personally I could care less what you do regarding mh, since we do not game together. But I was curious on another note as well, You state you do not use chicken, is that an option? My son had a very old version of mh. So old you could not see other players gear, it just took away the darkness and you could see monsters. I thought later versions automatically came with chicken. Could you explain further?
I also know that when 1.10 was released, his old version of mh was unusable and he deleted it.
I did not pay for it, there are cracked versions of it circulating because a lot of people didn't take well to Mousepad deciding to charge for it's use now. It is definitely his right to charge for it, he has put a lot of time and effort into it and should get something in return. It's just not worth it to me to pay for a minor utility for a game that itself is barely worth $15.
Yes chicken is a option it must be enabled and configured for it to work, it's disabled by default I just never turned it on.
doubleOObubble
08-04-2004, 12:51
"The girl came up and started yelling at my sister and calling her names and sutff. I beat that girl within an inch of her life. She almost lost her sight in one eye."
Uhm. Have you ever heard of shooting your own foot?? What you said here will be and is interpreted differently from what you want, I'm sure. You are trying to say you are a calm and non-violent person because only "once", you almost ended the life of a shouting girl???? Technically (and stupidly bluntly), someone who did a driveby and once and missed their target is less violent than you.
I'm not judging and I'm agreeing to most of your posts, this one too (pertaining the cheat part - your thoughts are very sound), but that post in particular made me open my eyes on something how different people's frames of references are. So, just so you know: Your "I'm really concerned about my opponent's safety..." and "I'll never do that again..." is great, but the fact that you did what you say you did even only once is staggering.
So, I'm not trying to say you are a bad person or anything Unholy. I'm just pointing out people might not interpret your post the way you think, and that what you wrote coupled with the fact that you like to PK (which I'm totally cool with), might actually have the reverse effect from what you wanted it to have simply because the obvious difference in frame of reference you seem to hold.
I like your posting alot nonetheless. I'm just pointing out... :scratch:
.......
So next time a dupe comes out, that doesn't require a third party program, so you know it's safe, will you use it Spero? That duping does infact save even MORE time obtaining items than botting.......
Hey, I liked your post. You make very good points. Here's what I think.
I have no objection to dupes in theory. However, I haven't and will never try to make one or participate in trying to make one. The thing that bothers me is that duping methods have a HUGE negative impact on bnet. Dupes improve the economy, but the dupers produce tremendous lag and make it impossible to make a game. :rant:
Every time I get on bnet and find it nearly impossible to play or make a game, I come here and find out that there's a new duping method. Then I wait several days before even trying to get back online, because it's just not worth it.
I have never tried an Ith or eth whatever weapons you were describing. Probably if I had a seriously overpowered character I'd get sick of it fast and quit using the item. In 1.09 I had two stormshields, and one sat on a mule because it made the game a little too easy for the characters I tried it with. The thing is, I really liked having the decision, rather than never even getting to try a stormshield. Hmm, the way that came out, it sounds like I cheated to get the storms. I found one and the second came from a friend. That second one was probably botted or duped. So I had the one knowing that it wasn't legit. I didn't care and still loved having it. It also didn't decrease the joy I felt when I actually found one.
but that's just me. :)
When i first started Xpac in 1.10 people were forced to walk to the Throne room most of the time fir this list of reasons.
Maphack wasnt rampent and supposedly being detected, and cost to get.
Only sorcs could teleport (with proper FCR)
Many Baal runs got cancelled or remade because there were no Barbs or Druids in that particular 8 player run.
Well, shortly after there was a rune dupe spree, a Pindlebot came out, maphack got hacked persay so ppl didnt have to pay, and the world found out Blizz was blowing smoke and cant detect and ban MHers, or wasnt going to spend the time doing it.
So now...
Every Baal run has somoene teleporting wether it is a Barb, Pally, Zon, Sin, Driud, Necro, or Sorc. TPs are up before I can scan the (3) small screens of stuff that Lazurk has for sell, and almost every sorck, pally, necro, zon, sin has BO of thier own.
Now, when i first hit Xpac it was about 3 months after 1.10 released and the ladder was still a nice race. Very very very few 92+ as people were dieing because of things they couldnt see, or teleing without Bo, or even walking wihtout "life enhancment", and not being able to see what was around the corner.
Well, shortly after this dupe and bots got rolling real well the ladder filled with a ton of 92+ characters and nobody dies except to the fluk melee IM or lag death, or hack PK, or PK.
People, bots, map hack, and dupes have totally ruined this ladder season and new fresh start taht we all wanted with the new patch.
Many people could care less about how high a lvl they can go, or who the best player is, but others do care, others put in a lot of effort to be #1. I know for a fact that most of the top 100, or top 50 play one character and 1 only, and might have and MFer for MF runs in thier non lvling time, and thier sole purpose of playing right now is to be one of the top ladder players, or they would have 15+ characters of all different lvls and go do all kinds of things.
Ik Armor when i was in Classic was costing a small fortune, but today I could get it for a MAL or IST or even less because many botters have 5 of them (number picked out of the air).
i have seen TALS armor go for (2) SOJ, Shako + and I have also seen it go for a GUL one time. hwo would anyone let Tals go for a GUL when the things is worth 3-5 times more? It is becasue he has 5+ (once again pulled out of the air).
Meanwhile the rest of the "legit" community is kiking and scratching, busting thier *** to keep up with the Joneses the "right way" and being beat down like a worthless pathetic little bum because they done have: BoTD...ect
At the same time these people using bots, dupes, hacks are running around claiming to be the best and all others are nubs......one of my favorite quotes of 1.10 the other weeks is this "Follow me newbies I have map Hack I know where to go"?!?!?!
i have stated it over and over and over that I dont have issues with MH users all that much but damnit it sure as hell makes this game a lot easier and does give you an advantage and if you dont see that you are just blind. Botting and duping gives you a tremdous advantage and destroys this game regardless of what you belive in your "self contained world". Now wiht that said, no, the one guys that plays maybe 5 hours a week that bots and doesnt trade all his botted stuff doesnt hurt anything, he only ups his fun by getting good items, but how many botters dont trade the excess and you know there is excess.
I once said not long ago that Tals will go for PGems befroe this ladder is down unless reset comes soon and i will stand by it. If it dont then IK will for sure as I know it is damn close to a mass gem trade already. Sorry people but this is pathetic!
You cant justifiy illegit means as it does chage it all regardless of what you think.
This game is rather challenging in 1.10 if you play it legit, and death is around every corner and comes to greet you quick. Botting and duping and MH just simply remove or deplete these issues proptly destroying this patch and game.
A BoTD Zerker one hits almost everything it see in a game where those legit barbs using the Doombringer have to hack away at a guy for 3-5 swings maybe. A handfull of BoTDs is all there should be in this game at this time, but right now realy all there is, is a handfull that dont have BoTD or some other hacked or botted item or doesnt use MH.
I have less respect for dupe users and dupers than I do for the MH or botter, but the simple fact is they are all one in the same if you boil it down. You are simply illegit thus weak and have falling into lazyness and or dependency on items.
I personnaly think, there is huge difference betweeen dupers and dupe users.
Dupe user is a fault of bliz, caus they are not doing enough.
Some dupe users dont know they use dupes.
I personnaly think, there is huge difference betweeen dupers and dupe users.
Dupe user is a fault of bliz, caus they are not doing enough.
Some dupe users dont know they use dupes.
Actually I find that to be a load of crap but please dont take it personal, and here is why.
When somoene trades off something to you that you havent found with 5 months of play for what you found in a week of play and isnt rare then you should know somehting is fishy.
Blizz cant totally stop duping, and i am not sure it is possible for them to detect duped runes, or runewords with the current setup.
Not knowing somehting is illegal but doing it anyway will land you in prison!
Dupe users know damn good and well that these items didnt just dome about from regular play, espeically when we discuss the ones including ZOD, CHAM, BER, SUR...etc......we can omit VEX and OHM as it is not unreasonable to craft those and get one of them in a lot of playing time.
When one week nobody has this or that and the next everyone does then you know you have dupes, or are trading for dupes andif you continue wiht the actions then you are no better than the duper themselves. We can equate this with the guy that buys stolen goods from theives and sells them. No, they didnt steal the items but they create and avenue that encourages the theives to steal as they know they have the place to sell.
Illegit is illegit.......sure there are varrying degrees, but it is still illegit thus wrong, thus illegal and any punishment for such acts is warranted.
Anyone using illegit means is weak.......They all know deep down that these things hurt this game, and attempt to justify thier use of them but they fail miserably. It is unjustifiable as it is illegit.
The paradox is removed if you define cheating as something that blizz identifies as cheating.
Blizz doesn't identify learning game mechanics on the web as cheating. Hence, they put arreat summit up for all to view.
Blizz does identify maphack (and other hacks) as a cheat.
I believe blizz didn't identify the netstat trick as a cheat, hence it can be used w/o saying you're cheating (but it doesn't mean you'll get a dclone game anyway).
People, bots, map hack, and dupes have totally ruined this ladder season and new fresh start taht we all wanted with the new patch.
Ik Armor when i was in Classic was costing a small fortune, but today I could get it for a MAL or IST or even less because many botters have 5 of them (number picked out of the air).
i have seen TALS armor go for (2) SOJ, Shako + and I have also seen it go for a GUL one time. hwo would anyone let Tals go for a GUL when the things is worth 3-5 times more? It is becasue he has 5+ (once again pulled out of the air).
Meanwhile the rest of the "legit" community is kiking and scratching, busting thier *** to keep up with the Joneses the "right way" and being beat down like a worthless pathetic little bum because they done have: BoTD...ect
At the same time these people using bots, dupes, hacks are running around claiming to be the best and all others are nubs......one of my favorite quotes of 1.10 the other weeks is this "Follow me newbies I have map Hack I know where to go"?!?!?!
i have stated it over and over and over that I dont have issues with MH users all that much but damnit it sure as hell makes this game a lot easier and does give you an advantage and if you dont see that you are just blind. Botting and duping gives you a tremdous advantage and destroys this game regardless of what you belive in your "self contained world". Now wiht that said, no, the one guys that plays maybe 5 hours a week that bots and doesnt trade all his botted stuff doesnt hurt anything, he only ups his fun by getting good items, but how many botters dont trade the excess and you know there is excess.
I once said not long ago that Tals will go for PGems befroe this ladder is down unless reset comes soon and i will stand by it. If it dont then IK will for sure as I know it is damn close to a mass gem trade already. Sorry people but this is pathetic!
I tried to pare down your post but keep the gist of it.
Sorry Stinger, I have a lot of respect for your ability to play, but I think you take this game way too seriously. I personally would love it if Tals went for pgems, because I know I'll never find one. It would be fun to try it out.
I don't care if the game is easy for some because they have good stuff. It's always that way. I also don't care if they bought it on ebay or played 24/7 to get it. I actually have more respect for the ebay shopper than the 24/7 player. I don't think it's good for a person to play on the computer that much. It isn't good for your health, it also doesn't make you a well-rounded person. I would never allow my children to do that. I would also do my best to resist doing that myself.
Me after playing too much -----> :cheesy:
Unholy_VI
09-04-2004, 00:22
"The girl came up and started yelling at my sister and calling her names and sutff. I beat that girl within an inch of her life. She almost lost her sight in one eye."
Uhm. Have you ever heard of shooting your own foot?? What you said here will be and is interpreted differently from what you want, I'm sure. You are trying to say you are a calm and non-violent person because only "once", you almost ended the life of a shouting girl???? Technically (and stupidly bluntly), someone who did a driveby and once and missed their target is less violent than you.
Heh. I didnt go into details about what happened.
But this chick had put my sister in the hospital a few months earlier over something that I think was really stupid to begin with. It was sheer luck that my sister is alive today.
Her and some of her friends jumped my sister after she got off from work one night and beat her with bats and boards. They stopped only because the boyfriend of a co worker happened to be driving up at the time and managed to drive them away (oops pun).
And when me and my sis and a couple of friends were out having a good time that night just having a couple of drinks and this silly little ***** comes up and starts with 'You remember what happened last time, you better just get on home before I finish the job' and shiz like that I pretty much snapped. Very few things will get me mad enough to fight but killing, trying to kill, threatening to kill ect... my family... thats one of them. When my sis can't even go out in the town she lives in without someone threatening to end her life or actually trying to, well thats not good.
that said believe me I've come around a long way since then. If the same thing happened today I would sit them both down at a table get them a drink and say 'whatever you two WERE fighting about its over. Its over NOW. So lets just drink these drinks and have a good time tonight.
I have the potential to be violent for sure. Moreso than most people. I think thats why I gravitate toward games where violence is part of the game. But my feeling is that people who know themselves well enough to realize that a part of them wants to punch the guy in the nose that just nearly ran them off the road while talking on his cell phone or some other irritating thing and find suitable releases for that energy are the ones that hold it together best in their 'real' lives. The ones that never face this side of themselves and come to a truce with it are the guys that are 'just so nice' that no one can believe it when they bring a .45 to work and blast away or murder their pregnant wife.
something to think about for sure...
HR-Tecira
09-04-2004, 01:04
The way in which shop bot or pindle mess up the economy is in making items that you can't easily get by these methods expensive to those that don't use the bots. You could see that very clearly back in 1.09 when dueling gear like ed/ias or ed/max jewels or sharps with life went for large amounts of high end items. I believe that is starting to happen again (can't say 100% since I rarely look at the trade channel). So when you are seeing one Ber or Jah rune selling for multiple storm shields etc you see the negative effect of botting on the economy. (Yes I know that those runes were duped in the past but that is no longer keeping their price down as those dupes are running out.)
You could also argue that using the ip info to clone hunt messes things up since you have the difference between people like me that go on clone hunting sprees and have several anni's and those that only get one the time they accidentally stumble on a hot server. Anni's don't have as much impact on the over all enconomy only because they can not be traded in a conventional manner. The drop trade makes it so anni trades can only safely be done through a forum setting or between friends. But even with that all the clone hunting that goes on has greatly reduced the value of an annihilus charm.
I must say that the whole method of getting an annihilus was a bad idea. What it should have been was a randomly occuring counter that would have a chance of spawning the clone. Maybe linking the chance at a count to quest completing or something. Instead it was linked to the selling of an old mass duped item to venders (ie soj). So now there is a lot of trading for the old scnl soj (and to a lesser extent the hcnl soj) just to use for clone spawning.
I suppose in a way this could be called similar to laundering money taking a dupe and making a "legit" item out of it. It in effect makes all anni's a bit on the dubious side since all are linked to soj selling and few if any of those sold soj are going to be legit. Especially once you realize that each time the clone spawns on a server 70-130 soj on average were sold since the last time the clone spawned.
Bongo Fury
09-04-2004, 02:33
I agree with you Tec. And I think this is another example of an implementation by Blizzard that encourages cheating. To find and spawn the clone, you're encouraged to us a hack and deal in duped SoJ's. Hackers and cheaters given the advantage over honest players. All those duped SoJ's made valuable again. And look at the whole Mephisto thing. He was too easy to get to, and botters could run him. So instead of addressing the bots, they instead made the D2 so big that the only way to run it efficiently is to use maphack. So the big effort to combat the Mephisto cheats did very little to slow them down, but instead screwed the legit player big time. And how about the other big step to combat the botters, tagged accounts. That worked for about half a day, till the botters learned to add some slight delays between their commands. But to this day if a legit player is trying to mule, or doing MF runs too quickly, ... Poof, into FTJG land. There's plenty more examples like these, where Blizzard sticks it to the honest player, in a futile attempt to stop hackers. In all honesty, I think Blizzard bears a large portion of blame for the rampant cheating, and illegitinate mind set of B-net. They do nothing to encourage honest play and in many cases penalize those who play that way.
Silkweed
09-04-2004, 10:51
Don't really know where I stand on cheating. For a while in SC, I had a friend who botted, and he would give me all sorts of cool items. The items were legitimate items in the sense that they weren't created from nothing or using a hack, just that it wasn't a human being who found them from hours spent playing. I also didn't really mind using some duped items, like for a while I had a .08 gaze, because it was cheaper and better than a perfect .09 one at the time.
Way before that even, I remember when occy sojs first hit East realm. I got a couple and put them on my sorceress, and in turn found a Windforce off pindle. I never for a moment considered the WF to be illegitimate, even though I might not have found it without the added MF from the occy rings.
But then when I made the move to HC, I tried as best as I could to keep straight in my own way. I have never used any third party program, and I intend to keep it that way, although for a time I heavily considered getting maphack. That was before maphack allowed you to do things like see monsters, or read people's equipment, or anything like that. Pure maphack, the one that just shows you the entire map the same way as if you'd explored it yourself, I don't see anything really wrong with. It saves you time, if anything costs you experience that you might get by taking the longer route, and the danger of getting killed is no different from not having it. But I'm good enough at the game now without it, so I don't bother to download it. I wouldn't even if I had the option, since part of me would just feel that I was cheating, since I would be.
Things like triggerhack on the other hand is utterly reprehensible. So is chickenhack in my opinion. I don't think there's any middle ground or justification for it. If you need chickenhack, then you shouldn't be playing HC, and if you use triggerhack to kill people without giving them any chance to escape, well, that's just BS as well.
And then there are things like bugs and glitches. I don't think I will ever mind the fact that people abuse these. Take the WP bug for example. Now, I personally don't use it, because I think there's more honour in killing people that have had the chance to get to safety, but when you think about it, by not doing something about it, Blizzard is condoning it. Maybe it was never their intention, but then they could have fixed it by now and chose not to. So we're stuck with it. I reserve the right to use this bug at any time I choose to, and if I ever did, I wouldn't see anything wrong with it. It would be lame, yeah, but it wouldn't be cheating. But lame is enough for me, which is why I don't use it. One day, I might feel like being a lamer.
I think that about sums it up. Just to clarify, I don't currently have any duped items (as far as I'm aware, and I'm 99% sure about this), use any third party programs, or take advantage of any bugs.
MoUsE_WiZ
09-04-2004, 12:30
That was before maphack allowed you to do things like see monsters, or read people's equipment, or anything like that. Pure maphack, the one that just shows you the entire map the same way as if you'd explored it yourself,
Erm...LoD wasn't out yet when MH started allowing you to see monsters.
Infact, the mod that allowed you to see monsters was out BEFORE mousepad released his hack (I don't recall the name of the person who made it, but it wasn't mousepad). He then incorporated that feature in a later version, but still well before LoD. Or if not before LoD (my memory could be faulty on that point) then WAY before occy rings.
The chicken, and Yobguls PKTK features were in later versions, but seeing monsters was in the very early versions...as such, I'm not sure where you would have found a "pure MH" if you had already used occy rings ^_^
SoulTorn
10-04-2004, 00:31
Just thought I'd chime in real quick.
On maphack:
I do have a maphack. I don't really use it for its(intended) purpose. They features I'm interested in are: How long a game's been up and how long my character has been in said game. Chiefly useful for 'perming' mules and muling games.
The only time I use the actual map hacking feature is when we(the group I'm in) have covered(seemingly) every part of an area and *still* can't seem to find the @#$% way to the next area. Even then, I'll only use it if everyone else in the group agrees that it should be used. Needless to say...it doesn't get used often. ::grins::(Typical areas it gets used are: Act3(at least in .09. Stupid black marsh) and some parts of Act2[Not the Canyon, oddly])
On Cheating:
Any "cheats" I've seen have basically been made to save time. Maphacks, bots, etc. Sometimes they are also used to make up for lack of actual playing skill. It's the latter that I truely dislike. If you can't hack it...don't play.
On what cheating actually is....that's a tricky topic for another day. :P
-SoulTorn D.
Silkweed
10-04-2004, 00:37
Erm...LoD wasn't out yet when MH started allowing you to see monsters.
Infact, the mod that allowed you to see monsters was out BEFORE mousepad released his hack (I don't recall the name of the person who made it, but it wasn't mousepad). He then incorporated that feature in a later version, but still well before LoD. Or if not before LoD (my memory could be faulty on that point) then WAY before occy rings.
The chicken, and Yobguls PKTK features were in later versions, but seeing monsters was in the very early versions...as such, I'm not sure where you would have found a "pure MH" if you had already used occy rings ^_^
My mistake, I had no idea. Since I've never used maphack, I could only guess as to what it was like, and I always just sort of figured that it was like having a fully explored map. Oh well.
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