OT: The Great “Is 1.10 Too Hard” Debate

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Hey Furballs,

I plan on submitting this was a guest article. Help me proof it.

Garbad

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The Great “Is 1.10 Too Hard” Debate

Over the past few months, I have read approximately 500 million articles and threads discussing the difficulty of 1.10. Some claim 1.10 is too hard, whining about regen, excessive damage, and so forth. Others smugly point out how “smart” players can easily win by using “strategy.”

The reality is both sides miss the point completely. Allow me to explain.

Monsters in 1.09 fell into two categories—tedious and annoying. Either you mindlessly herded and slaughtered them or they annoyed you into retreating and killing them one by one (or you simply teleported past).

The vast majority of players used overpowered dupes and hacks on their favorite overpowered cookie cutters. Spambots and ebayers ran unchecked. PvM was tedious and unchallenging unless you deliberately played to make it a challenge (untwinked, unleeched, and noncookie). Roughly 95% of all games fell into one of these categories:

· Cows
· Sewers/arcane runs (hc normal only)
· Blood runs
· meph runs
· pindle runs
· shopbot runs
· “Rush me plz” games

Blizzard sought to counter this by adding resistances, speed, hit points, and replenish to the monsters. Blizz added Rust Storm, synergies, new items, a host of balance changes, and the ladder. 1.10 has more changes than any patch before.

Yet for all those superficial changes, do you notice nothing fundamental changed?

Monsters in 1.10 STILL fall into only two categories—tedious and annoying (IE, enslaved or gloams (http://server6.uploadit.org/files/Garbad-gloam.jpg)). PvM is STILL tedious and unchallenging unless you deliberately played to make it a challenge (untwinked, unleeched, and noncookie).

The vast majority of players STILL used overpowered dupes or runewords (ladder or not) on their favorite overpowered cookie cutters (and there are about the same number of viable builds in 1.10 as 1.09—look back at the guides if you have a short memory). Spambots and ebayers are STILL unchecked. Roughly 95% of all games fall into one of these categories:

· Baals
· sewers/arcane/travincial (normal only)
· cows
· Pit runs
· Meph runs
· “Help me beat X restraining quest” games

See the similarities? That’s right, 1.09 = 1.10.

So is PvM a challenge? No, it never has been and never will be. 1.10 didn’t change anything fundamental about PvM. The biggest challenge of PvM is not falling asleep as you mindlessly hold down right click. PvM strategy consists entirely of knowing how to max synergies, using godly uniques/runewords and then knowing when to pot, when to run, and when to wear down the mindless meat.

The fact is, PvM has always been tedious and easy. Virtually everyone on Cattle.net finds the most overpowered build using the items they have at their disposal. They then proceed to run whatever area they think will give them the best rewards (be it runes, experience, or items).

Blizzard thought increasing meat and resistances would increase the challenge, but they were wrong. The problem with Diablo II PvM is NOT certain builds, items, or synergies. It has nothing to do with resistances, cows, or rushing.

PvM is boring and easy because the monsters cannot change tactics, adjust, or react in any way. Their damage, speed, and reaction time is inferior to yours. They simply charge and hope their meat wears you down. The Diablo II AI, like any AI, simply cannot challenge an intelligent opponent for long.

I prefer to fight something that can fight back, thank you. I prefer to fight those who can meet me as an equal. I want to fight someone who wants to win as badly as I do and will think and adjust to do so.

There is only one way in Diablo II to fight an intelligent, reactive opponent and that is by clicking the hostile button. PvP is the ONLY lasting and real challenge in Diablo II. The good news is PvP changes every day, every month as people get better and better. PvP will never grow stale as long as you are willing to fight.

If you think Diablo II is too easy, you are right. If you are tired of not dying enough, simply don’t leave the game next time someone hostiles you and find out just how good you really are. In time, you will find the challenge and fun of a good duel to be far superior to anything PvM has to offer.

If you want to find the challenge in Diablo II, come join us in Clan-Honor for some 4v4s. We duel with manners and respect for our opponents. We have rules to balance out the worst of blizzard’s mistakes. And I can promise you we will give you more of a challenge than those quill rats ever will.

Long Live Legit PvP!

Garbad_the_Weak
Dueling Legit since 1995

[Keaka26]

So that was basically a Clan Honor recuitment/advertisement post, under the guise of an informative post about how lame PvM is... :lol:

I'm interested in CO. Whats required to join? How? How are games run? Is there a game or 2 always with people in it or a channel or are the games scheduled beforehand?

Ladder? Non? East? West?

I believe I heard non-ladder, so Id basically count myself out if that was the case, as Im ladder.

[Koggit]

So, 1.10 isn't too hard... if you have godly items. That's what you're saying? It's nearly impossible to get good items without having good items, and without good items you can't take on 1.10's Hell. The synergies helped a lot in the right direction, but not enough. There should have been more synergies and synergies for every skill, or make drops better.


It's not a good article, in my opinion. Everything stated is pure opinion, your bias against PvM obviously got in the way, and it sounds much more like a post in a forum than an editorial. It lacks sharp wit or any real message other than you prefer PvP and want to plug your clan.

[VictusMetuo]

Yes this is basically PvM sucks because I have great items because I PvP but PvP is imbalanced so join CH because it balances things.

Keaka there is a CH Forum under the PvP Forum. It's East/West Non-Ladder mainly.

You forgot to mention in your article that even for PvM or PvP 95% of Cattle.net is not actually "intelligent" anyway.

[steve2677]

Hmmm....WOW i was kinda with you garbad till you started in on hackers, items and rushers. Now as 1.10 came out some of us said boohoo i cant beat hell but that didnt stop the players of the game and not the rushees to try and conquer hell. The problem was we had ample time to playtest this new patch before the *patch* was released thus teaching alot of us who played it how to get those godly items,or which builds were going to let us get our first char in hell to mf with.

I as a sole pvm player whether you think me silly or not may as a player not find hell AS difficult as when the patch was first released, do not think that the enemies have gotten that bad as you say. I have taken a total of 12 chars fully through hell without rushing. It sometimes is tedious to killl the warped ones again and again etc. but find me a game with replayability that doesnt at some point bore you to death when you get to a certain area. I still find a huge challenge in hell ancients along with most of act 5, some of act 4 and act 2. I like playing pvm and youre article totally ***** on my parade.

P.S. And if i say get my first char through hell and then get so called godly items (btw i do not have a runeword better then stone) because i mf does that automatically put me in the 95% of cattle.net that likes to equip my other chars with items i have found and i know i could find the game easier with if i did xfer them then use them?I think this game is how you see it, i like pvm and lately i have gotten a little into pvp but when someone basically says pvm sucks let me write an article about it it kinda pisses me off. I thought as a mod you could promote the game in all its aspects even though you may not like pvm at all.

[proudfoot]

Yeah, Single Player is a slightly different story...

[Garbad_the_Weak]

You missed the point. The point of the article is the difficulty of diablo 2 has nothing to do with builds or items of any kind. Diablo 2 is easy because the AI is poor and connot react.

Randomly generated monsters was a start, but not enough.

Any PvM challenge can be overcome by simply not letting yourself get swarmed and avoiding the one hit kills (and I was 72nd or so on the ladder till I got to about lvl 77 and got bored. I play hc btw also and have never died non-pvp over lvl 60). If the game gets hard, you just run in another area. Not very hard to do at all, and therefore PvM becomes simply an exercise in endurance.

PvP, on the other hand, has your opponents adjust to you and there is no backing down. You react and win by skill or you lose.

Garbad

P.S. And vic, intelligent was used in a very liberal sense :)

[memememe173]

I agree in some ways and not in others...

First, even with the fact that cookie cutters remain, the synergys and skill tweaking made many builds more viable... [Fire] Elemental Druids, Concentrate Barbarians, Chain Lightning Sorceresses. When you take 7 characters and 30 skills a piece, it is near impossible to make each skill balance perfectly. I get my characters rushed, and I tweak them. That being said, I've died more times then I can count. And not just trying to tank Lister with a sorc or going afk in the Chaos Sanctuary, but just cases where I could not compete with the monsters.

There will always be people who want to play the cookie cutter and get a "free" ride, just like kids will, at one point or another lie about doing there homework to the parents, if they know it won't be checked...One of the great things about Diablo for me is, I can take my Geddon druid, and have trouble with many parts of the game, and need to party, and then right after that take my Hammerdin and do a Diablo run and not go under 50% health.

It's all up to the play style. I try to do every quest with each character (though not always at the lower level, as I said I do get rushed) and I will run into monsters I hardly ever see and have some challenge's only they can provide. For example the Flayer's in act 3. My level 88 orb sorc has all but one wp, the Flayer Jungle. I've tried three times to get it myself, and all three times I've failed.

So you can make the game as easy or hard as you like. Monsters are only tedious if you only fight a few select ones. And the game is only easy if you never play through, or play a variant build.

[psuedoenviro]

I liked your article and thought it was well written. You make a great point that monster AI will not surpass the intelligence of most people (not all people though). You should submit your article. It even made want to join Clan Honor and do more than the occationally pubby, but I am at heart a PvM person.

The key to PvM is doing all those things you said that still make it an interesting game. Don't Twink. Don't run Baal 20 times before you enter nm or hell. Entering hell at lvl 70-75 like most people is just boring.That's an average of 15-20 skill points which makes a huge difference. See what's the lowest lvl you can complete Hell untwinked. Even cookie-cutters can have a difficult time.

Don't be like 95% of bnet. Make a game called act 1 normal with a lvl 1 char and limit it to chars within 5 your own lvl and limit the max number of players that you play with to 2 and make sure you doing at least of 1/3 of the killing and not just leeching. (You can have 8 players in one game to make it more difficult, but an group of 8 in one area is just too easy.) Now play the game through not going back to any area twice. Only use what you pick up. No rushing. I still enjoy PvM even after over 3yrs of on an off D2 play.

An alternative way to play this would be to allow one twink item for nm and hell and only rush Act 3.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Btw, I didn't intend this as a CH sales pitch. I just wanted to "educate" people into realizing all PvP isn't suddenly attacking an unprepared lower level char (ala HC pking) or morons nking each other (public duels).

I really wanted to promote mannered, honorable dueling, not necessarily CH dueling.

Garbad

[~Kazama Fury~]

you forgot to add:

PvM is for people who cant hit moving targets. o_O

[memememe173]

Garbad, you were asking the difference between PvM and PvP in a thread a month or two ago, and now you're writing on why PvM isn't that good?:scratch:

*Disclaimer* I'm not trying to offend or be fecicous, I'm just wondering

And PvP can be just as gear demanding and cookie cuttered as PvM, but, IMHO, is harder to "dumb down." PvM is by not twinking or using wierd builds.

But I find that those sort of builds often get eaten in PvP

IMO both aspects of Diablo can be as easy or as hard as you want. And we should stop blaming Blizzard, who has to cater to millions(?) of people and we only have to cater to oursleves or a small group

[prion]

You can't expect monsters to be as smart as the gamer. If they were, they would save and exit as they were about to die, and there would be no game.

[ƒenris]

ROFL save and exit ns!

Garbad make it longer you nub. :lol:
How is a post about 1.10 off topic btw?

[~Kazama Fury~]

You can't expect monsters to be as smart as the gamer. If they were, they would save and exit as they were about to die, and there would be no game.
omg that would definately be my sig if i had a pal account ><
or if i was mod... cough cough

[ƒenris]

You could pull a mep.
ƒenris, the round and round of all that is-
You can't expect monsters to be as smart as the gamer. If they were, they would save and exit as they were about to die, and there would be no game.
^_^ Nice!

[DeamonMonkey]

Take out the plug for Clan Honor, as much as I'd like it to be successful it ruins the article. By plugging CH you ruin your valid points, by looking like a...well, a clan leader plugging his clan.

So, I'd take out everything on Clan Honor, and add something like:

So, go find some Legit PvP, and experience a challenge in The Moor that Quill rats will never give.

Long Live Legit PvP!

Garbad_the_Weak
Dueling Legit since 1995

(and then maybe a PS: Plugging CH)

[Jackson]

Very true, because stupid monsters are so dumb they ignore you and go for your Valkyrie or Decoys. I was able to solo Hell Baal naked with my 10 Skeletons and AMP curse. The monsters ignore my completely and the skeletons make short work of them.


I'll check out Clan Honor sometime :)

[xpumafangx]

Hi I know I hardly ever post. I once posted a guide in 1.09 on the pally forum some people read it. But I did not get the effect I wanted. I did plugg my clan in it thinking hey why not. After words I felt that by doing so was my Achilles' Heel. Even thought I was sly about it.

[Hamsterman]

if you're gonna play pvp, then woo twink your char to high heaven.

but, to me, if you're gonna play pvm, then twinking is against the rules, use only what you find and don't do mf runs to find the godly gear you can't win without. it isn't that I feel I need to dumb myself down to win, just if I wanna play pvm I won't ever twink.

if you do it that way, then gl taking out most hell areas, namely ancients, baal, and diablo.

[proudfoot]

Guest Articles have to have some kind of bias or false assumption in them to make them arguable. Otherwise they might be good for valuable discussion.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Go to bed tim, its past your bedtime.

Garbad

[mepersoner]

1.10 is too hard, if it walked around in public like that it would surely be arrested.

-Mepersoner, Furry Admin

[Gul'Dan]

If restricting yourself for untwink or not using cookie cutter builds and not rushing and giving yourself "rules" for pvm is a bad idea, then why does CH has "rules"?

pvm is like pvp, in a ruleless environment it's chaotic. You see 95% of bnet-ers rush/doing exp runs/doing mf runs... etc. just like you see so much pubby duellers nk/town guard/bp/enigma/1 hit kill synergy/massive absorb... etc.

Ever try become a m/patriach or guardian solo and untwink in the shortest time possible? No, a cookie cutting hammerdin probably won't be able to get past maggot's lair in nightmare. Ever try to beat hell at the lowest level possible using a non-caster character? If you can look past the rush/baal/mf and place "rules" on pvm, just like what you did in pvp, then you might find it a bit more challenging.

[Shug_Ninx]

I thought the article interesting until the end, where you turned it into some lame clan-recruiting gig.

Its as if I was watching a documentary on Dolphins, only to have it turn into an infomercial where they try to sell me scuba gear and dolphin t-shirts at the end.

Or better yet, any episode of Transformers: G-1 or GI-Joe.

[Black_Dog]

This game is boring all around...
i think Blizzard should make a new expansion for this game... i already have a great name for it too... Diablo 2: Arena...
yeah, that's right... all pvp
It would basically be a new type of game, like normal/nm/hell/arena.. and when the game is created, the creator can set his/her own rules... ban certain skills, determine the size of the dueling ground, decide how many ppl are allowed to duel at once and how many people can be spectators, what classes are allowed and such... wouldn't that just be awesome? that way, you can make a few clan honor games and keep em up all the time... no enforcing the rules because they'd be embedded in the game... imagine that, a game with only melee chars, no life tap or anything like that... *drool*

[strijdje]

Yeah, Single Player is a slightly different story...

and what story might that be if i may ask?

[Kitriara]

Yes, this game is fundamentally a meat-slashing endurance contest, but as a player from day one who is only HC PvM, I still find it entertaining. If you want to stand a chance in dueling you need the godliest possible gear for your level, and as someone who HATES magic finding (booooring) I'd rather test my builds against the monsters.

The only way to enjoy PvM is to play untwinked and unrushed... honestly, if you have all of your gear from the get go, its true - there is absolutely no challenge to PvM! The challenge in a PvM character should be to survive with what you can find by knowing how to build a good character.

People are always asking for rushes... rushes to WHAT?!?! To endless baal runs, better and better gear so you can do MORE baal runs?!?! I just dont understand it. For me, the game is pretty much over when I beat hell baal.

Yes, hell is insanely hard without good gear, however, doing baal runs in nightmare before you get there should net you decent enough item drops to make your way through it.

If anyone ever wants to join me in my EHCL untwinked unrushed fun (always deviant builds too) feel free to message me!

*Kitriara

[Garbad_the_Weak]

People are always asking for rushes... rushes to WHAT?!?! I hear that.

Its not that PvM is boring, per se. I have enjoyed PvM at times. I've played the untwinked HC chars, blah blah, and had fun a time or two. But it gets old soon enough because its no challenge.

PvP > D2s AI

Garbad

[memememe173]

Yes, this game is fundamentally a meat-slashing endurance contest, but as a player from day one who is only HC PvM, I still find it entertaining. If you want to stand a chance in dueling you need the godliest possible gear for your level, and as someone who HATES magic finding (booooring) I'd rather test my builds against the monsters.

The only way to enjoy PvM is to play untwinked and unrushed... honestly, if you have all of your gear from the get go, its true - there is absolutely no challenge to PvM! The challenge in a PvM character should be to survive with what you can find by knowing how to build a good character.

People are always asking for rushes... rushes to WHAT?!?! To endless baal runs, better and better gear so you can do MORE baal runs?!?! I just dont understand it. For me, the game is pretty much over when I beat hell baal.

Yes, hell is insanely hard without good gear, however, doing baal runs in nightmare before you get there should net you decent enough item drops to make your way through it.

If anyone ever wants to join me in my EHCL untwinked unrushed fun (always deviant builds too) feel free to message me!

*Kitriara
Rushes to reach a plan, and then complete the hell quests. I stop as soon as I can wear my gear, and then I do the quests and I find it fun and challenging and I can still die and have trouble surviving in parts.

It's part of the magic of Diablo...I don't understand why I level my non mf, non rusher, non PvP characters...but there is always something to do or strive towards. To beat Hell Baal by yourself with a wierd build. To stand in the middle of 100 cows and not take any hits.

I rush because I don't find enjoyment in struggling through areas and running away most of the time, or doing runs in a too easy area so that I can survive in the next area (end of act 2 to the start of act 3 is the biggest jump IMO). But I'm not one who sits in a channel spamming rush me. If no firends are on I'll try to do as much as I can by myself.

IMO, stopping after playing the game through and rushing and power leveling and going back to finish quests [provided your still challenged, either a lower level or not having the greatest gear] is much more similar then you think. Both leave the question, what am I aiming for? Sense of achivement? Bragging rights? In the end, it's still just a game, which has the power of appealing to many people for different reasons, and letting each person play their own style.

[Lithan]

Pvp is twice as lame as pvm. You have chargadins who charge and thats it. Bone necros who bp and spirit. Barbs who WW. Zons who spam guided. This isn't tactics. This is whoever has the best overpowered runewords or in melee duels whoever gets the first hit in.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

And let me guess, you don't duel.

Garbad

[proudfoot]

Strategy is cool.

[memememe173]

Strategy is cool.
Sure is. And PvM can require strategy if you want it to. Just as PvP can be "stand out side of town, spam skill"...or you can try a telekenisis sorc...

[DeamonMonkey]

So now we know 95% of the people on battle.net are idiots, and people are smarter than Diablo's AI. Didn't we already know that?

[xpumafangx]

Ya but it is still fun to talk about.

[Rascargil]

in a programmer's viewpoint, i figured developing AI that fully reacts to a player's behaviour/motive/pattern is a whole game project in itself -_- the cpu process needed to do just that could take away resources that will be used for screen rendering, handling of user inputs, and network code, not to mention all the enormous data that has to be processed to just tell your werewolf to 'swing'. so gaming companies like blizzard had to compromise -- lots of little intelligence monsters for bashing, with a few lone similarly low intelligent bosses for kicks, and have all the features that D2 has right now -- or one or few monsters that actually thinks, but you can only play alone and make it look like it's a game of chess.

so the compromise was to 'just' to make it fun, and let people play with other people however which way they like to make up for the monster department.

[DeamonMonkey]

in a programmer's viewpoint, i figured developing AI that fully reacts to a player's behaviour/motive/pattern is a whole game project in itself -_- the cpu process needed to do just that could take away resources that will be used for screen rendering, handling of user inputs, and network code, not to mention all the enormous data that has to be processed to just tell your werewolf to 'swing'. so gaming companies like blizzard had to compromise -- lots of little intelligence monsters for bashing, with a few lone similarly low intelligent bosses for kicks, and have all the features that D2 has right now -- or one or few monsters that actually thinks, but you can only play alone and make it look like it's a game of chess.

so the compromise was to 'just' to make it fun, and let people play with other people however which way they like to make up for the monster department.


but....but... but..... I want it all

Please?

[Forcefeedback]

but....but... but..... I want it all

Please?

Don't worry, Rascargil was only referring to games designed with the system requirements of Diablo II which are quite low for today's standards. There was also this guy who said that the cpu frequency doubles in a few years, so the more computer technology develops, the more system resources there will be to to go around and thus more advanced artificial intelligence programmers can use.

As to the 1.10 too hard and pvp vs pvm, best yeat and don't know. :)

I think 1.10 is balanced the best because there must be precise planning to achieve good results(killing speed, survivability etc.). I still have my 1.07 orb sorceress which was a prime example of an overpowered build. After the immunities popped up.,, you could guess. 1.10 has immunities, unleachable monsters, fast monsters, hard hitting monsters, tough monsters and even cursing monsters. I admit that some areas are too easy, but with this spectrum of monsters I'm surprised that there is any consistency in the difficulty.

Pvp is something I haven't ever tried. I play sp and rarely lan so there hasn't been too many opportunities either. I might try it someday if I can get a good internet connection.

[Black_Dog]

PvP can be just about as frustrating as that friend who keeps uppercutting you in Mortal Kombat... but if you have real skill in the game, you can take the opponent out... with style ;)
hmm... how simple is melee pvp? well... on the outter shell, it would seem that those with the better gear (or just those with life tap and bo) would win.. well, what if you take two very similar builds, one with a much better wep than the other, and have them duel?
if the person behind the "crappier" char has skill... he can still win (regardless of who gets the first hit)

ok, back on topic...
i remember back in D1 when i'd be down in hell with my warrior in single player. i'd see this lone hell witch type thing just sitting there, and i'd run after it thinking "must kill IT!!!!" and then it would run away from me. at that moment, i realized "hey... this looks like a decoy manuever into an ambush" and i was right... i'd run right into a chamber FULL of these hell witches just firing away at me... so i'd run out, and hope that they follow me... i'd run around and around and around until they got broken up and then i'd kill them in small groups... all in all, it took about 3 or 4 minutes
simple strategy, but at least it WAS strategy... i don't see myself ever having to do that anymore... if there's an ambush, then i'm dead... period... and there's no where to run around cuz there's another mob of monsters just around the corner, and with my luck they're all physical immune...

[Bob_TheMadCow]

Problem with PvP: In order to compete you must be rich. in order to be rich, you have to MF. In order to MF you have to play the worst kind of boring PvM, PvVerySpecificMonstersOverAndOverAgain. No fun.

If I could just "try" PvP, then maybe I'd have gotten into it. But its not worth the slog to get there.

I have Sacred now :) (been playing that the last few days) lets see how lonmg that takes to get boring. I've already found a seemily VERY powerful PvM build for it...

[Sim.The.GoSu]

09>10 nuff said.ggthx

[DeamonMonkey]

How is sacred anyway?

oh and uhh 09>10 for Pvp anyway

[mepersoner]

I completely disagree.

-Mepersoner, Furry Admin

[Game_Addy]

i think 1.1 is harder because of the little bug or whatever, i can swing for like 100 times without hitting something, but i hav 95% chance to hit a fallen at lvl 5... kind of makes things more of a pain:(

[Bob_TheMadCow]

How is sacred anyway?

oh and uhh 09>10 for Pvp anyway£30 from GAME

[dkay]

I hear that.

Its not that PvM is boring, per se. I have enjoyed PvM at times. I've played the untwinked HC chars, blah blah, and had fun a time or two. But it gets old soon enough because its no challenge.

PvP > D2s AI

Garbad

ioono garb... some duelers are just plain stoOopid =P
lil fetishes scare me more than pub duelers O_o

[jumbo_SHRIMP]

the main problem is that people...not bnet are stupid...look how many people go thru the game all act, all the way thru? none...5%? very little

the pvm game is fun AND a challenge when people make 8 player games...run the whole way through playing all acts and quests...wanna know something funny also? you get to like level 80ish + by the time you kill baal doing it this way...

this forum(not just druid, but everyone together) and the stupid(guides...ie do it this way for biggest powerhouse) are the reason (there are other sites) there is a lack of diversity...instead of saying well another option could be "X" people say look at the guides thats the best/only way to do things...

a general dronage is made by people saying pit runs are the easiest/fastest way to get the best items...and thats why there are a SUPER PLETHORA of the same uniques etc floating around and in general a lack of sweet rares...wanna know where one of the best places to mf is? ALL of act3 thats right...but people would rather run a particular area for "great stuff" than run all areas for some AMAZING stuff, but mostly poo

act4 is also a great place to find good stuff but its a challenge, so players tend to shun away from it cuz its more DIFFICULT than most other areas of the game...
my suggestion? dont post an answer to someones question based on what OTHER people are always saying base it on the experience that YOUVE had in the game...that way many peoples opinions get heard rather than what 1 guy did which rocked...stop posting the same drone dribble, stop running the same areas of the game and STOP posting READ the guide...its so stupid

phelix

[hv)pheonix]

they should make a new patch or another expansion packlike some oen said but i forgot now after reading this whole thing butwith more chars 7 chars gets annoying at times. id say the only people who buy this game for pvm are
1. people amazed by flashing lights
2. ebayers tryin to get rich
3. uhhh no one else unless someone else can think of one
pvp is the way to go and the shamless plug for CH is needed cause i just found out about it the other day(still waiting on email reply...) when i was forum surfing. i knew about 76 legit but not honor and i like honor dueling since i agree on most fo the rules they set. this patch is only hard to lvl especially on ladder cause all the people who didnt have much on nonwent over there and still got nothing and it just slows others down. i always get stuck team pubby dueling with foh pallys who have one good item going for rthem and thats a hoto they ebayed. srry for the rant just need some decent dueling places with few necros who bp u when u nk and enigma inafter u died and steal gold...

[Inman]

Hey Furballs,

I plan on submitting this was a guest article. Help me proof it.

Garbad

-------------------

The Great “Is 1.10 Too Hard” Debate

Over the past few months, I have read approximately 500 million articles and threads discussing the difficulty of 1.10. Some claim 1.10 is too hard, whining about regen, excessive damage, and so forth. Others smugly point out how “smart” players can easily win by using “strategy.”

The reality is both sides miss the point completely. Allow me to explain.

Monsters in 1.09 fell into two categories—tedious and annoying. Either you mindlessly herded and slaughtered them or they annoyed you into retreating and killing them one by one (or you simply teleported past).

The vast majority of players used overpowered dupes and hacks on their favorite overpowered cookie cutters. Spambots and ebayers ran unchecked. PvM was tedious and unchallenging unless you deliberately played to make it a challenge (untwinked, unleeched, and noncookie). Roughly 95% of all games fell into one of these categories:

· Cows
· Sewers/arcane runs (hc normal only)
· Blood runs
· meph runs
· pindle runs
· shopbot runs
· “Rush me plz” games

Blizzard sought to counter this by adding resistances, speed, hit points, and replenish to the monsters. Blizz added Rust Storm, synergies, new items, a host of balance changes, and the ladder. 1.10 has more changes than any patch before.

Yet for all those superficial changes, do you notice nothing fundamental changed?

Monsters in 1.10 STILL fall into only two categories—tedious and annoying (IE, enslaved or gloams (http://server6.uploadit.org/files/Garbad-gloam.jpg)). PvM is STILL tedious and unchallenging unless you deliberately played to make it a challenge (untwinked, unleeched, and noncookie).

The vast majority of players STILL used overpowered dupes or runewords (ladder or not) on their favorite overpowered cookie cutters (and there are about the same number of viable builds in 1.10 as 1.09—look back at the guides if you have a short memory). Spambots and ebayers are STILL unchecked. Roughly 95% of all games fall into one of these categories:

· Baals
· sewers/arcane/travincial (normal only)
· cows
· Pit runs
· Meph runs
· “Help me beat X restraining quest” games

See the similarities? That’s right, 1.09 = 1.10.

So is PvM a challenge? No, it never has been and never will be. 1.10 didn’t change anything fundamental about PvM. The biggest challenge of PvM is not falling asleep as you mindlessly hold down right click. PvM strategy consists entirely of knowing how to max synergies, using godly uniques/runewords and then knowing when to pot, when to run, and when to wear down the mindless meat.

The fact is, PvM has always been tedious and easy. Virtually everyone on Cattle.net finds the most overpowered build using the items they have at their disposal. They then proceed to run whatever area they think will give them the best rewards (be it runes, experience, or items).

Blizzard thought increasing meat and resistances would increase the challenge, but they were wrong. The problem with Diablo II PvM is NOT certain builds, items, or synergies. It has nothing to do with resistances, cows, or rushing.

PvM is boring and easy because the monsters cannot change tactics, adjust, or react in any way. Their damage, speed, and reaction time is inferior to yours. They simply charge and hope their meat wears you down. The Diablo II AI, like any AI, simply cannot challenge an intelligent opponent for long.

I prefer to fight something that can fight back, thank you. I prefer to fight those who can meet me as an equal. I want to fight someone who wants to win as badly as I do and will think and adjust to do so.

There is only one way in Diablo II to fight an intelligent, reactive opponent and that is by clicking the hostile button. PvP is the ONLY lasting and real challenge in Diablo II. The good news is PvP changes every day, every month as people get better and better. PvP will never grow stale as long as you are willing to fight.

If you think Diablo II is too easy, you are right. If you are tired of not dying enough, simply don’t leave the game next time someone hostiles you and find out just how good you really are. In time, you will find the challenge and fun of a good duel to be far superior to anything PvM has to offer.

If you want to find the challenge in Diablo II, come join us in Clan-Honor for some 4v4s. We duel with manners and respect for our opponents. We have rules to balance out the worst of blizzard’s mistakes. And I can promise you we will give you more of a challenge than those quill rats ever will.

Long Live Legit PvP!

Garbad_the_Weak
Dueling Legit since 1995

PvP has it's moments, but if you really want to fight somebody using brains and skills, Diablo isn't the format. While I am sure the clan you advertise will weed out the gold stealing/kill-me-when-I-go-to-get-my-body jerks, you are probably better off playing Virtua Fighter, Axis and Allies, Warcraft, or any other video game. At least it takes more than 20 seconds to decide the winner. What makes Diablo interesting is the myriad of builds for each character, as they can be applied to PvM scenarios. Hacking monsters mindlessly is tedious, but with different character skills/builds, the thrill of discovering items, trading items, and accumulating wealth, the game is still a pioneer in many ways and will always be interesting. You will surely buy the next version with its new monsters, maps, items, and quests, and you will love it. Your interest in PvM will be renewed, and your ennui forgotten.

Until Then,

Inman

[ƒenris]

Substitute warcrap for starcraft in your post and I will slightly agree.

[Black_Dog]

PvP has it's moments, but if you really want to fight somebody using brains and skills, Diablo isn't the format. While I am sure the clan you advertise will weed out the gold stealing/kill-me-when-I-go-to-get-my-body jerks, you are probably better off playing Virtua Fighter, Axis and Allies, Warcraft, or any other video game. At least it takes more than 20 seconds to decide the winner. What makes Diablo interesting is the myriad of builds for each character, as they can be applied to PvM scenarios. Hacking monsters mindlessly is tedious, but with different character skills/builds, the thrill of discovering items, trading items, and accumulating wealth, the game is still a pioneer in many ways and will always be interesting. You will surely buy the next version with its new monsters, maps, items, and quests, and you will love it. Your interest in PvM will be renewed, and your ennui forgotten.

Until Then,

Inman

There's a new version coming out? with new itamz, and monsters? and quests? oh my... i can't wait... i can hardly contain myself -.-

the deal is that the way the game was meant to be played is boring now... even with the myriad of builds and such, half the time you need godly items to make them work... now if only we could get it through our thick skulls that just because a build can get through Hell doesn't mean the end of the world... Hell is for the elite (this does not apply to sorcs, necros, wind druids or hammerdins... you can get those through hell with no problem)
It's kinda like with a fighting game. "yeah, i can beat all of arcade mode on "hard" but "Very Hard" just whoops my ***" "yeah, dude... i hear ya, hell... i can hardly get through it on norm" "that's cool man, you just need a little practice... come over to my place tonight and i'll show ya some cool moves that might help ya out" "sweet man, thanks!"
but with d2 it's like "yeah, i can't get my build through Hell" "HAHA JOO NOOBLAR, JOO BILD SUXORZ!!!11!!" "dude... you gotta chill man" "alright, come to my place tonight and i'll see if i can help ya out"

ok, i don't know what i'm talking about now... sorry for the spam

[hv)pheonix]

PvP has it's moments, but if you really want to fight somebody using brains and skills, Diablo isn't the format. While I am sure the clan you advertise will weed out the gold stealing/kill-me-when-I-go-to-get-my-body jerks, you are probably better off playing Virtua Fighter, Axis and Allies, Warcraft, or any other video game. At least it takes more than 20 seconds to decide the winner. What makes Diablo interesting is the myriad of builds for each character, as they can be applied to PvM scenarios. Hacking monsters mindlessly is tedious, but with different character skills/builds, the thrill of discovering items, trading items, and accumulating wealth, the game is still a pioneer in many ways and will always be interesting. You will surely buy the next version with its new monsters, maps, items, and quests, and you will love it. Your interest in PvM will be renewed, and your ennui forgotten.

Until Then,

Inman
thats deep and for the most part true but there is something about it that u cant quit. besides most people including myself like fast paced fighting. i cant get enough of tekken and ive been playin it since the first one each oen gets smoother and smoother and id take it over virtua fighter any day. if im playin most rounds take only 10- 40 seconds there also but its still fun payin attention to every detail to find out where the next blow comes from and takin as little dmg as possible. diablo is just a toned down version of that but u have to build your characters.

[~Kazama Fury~]

thats deep and for the most part true but there is something about it that u cant quit. besides most people including myself like fast paced fighting. i cant get enough of tekken and ive been playin it since the first one each oen gets smoother and smoother and id take it over virtua fighter any day. if im playin most rounds take only 10- 40 seconds there also but its still fun payin attention to every detail to find out where the next blow comes from and takin as little dmg as possible. diablo is just a toned down version of that but u have to build your characters.
i agree, i am equally a fan of tekken (surprised?) and diablo, they have different aspects in terms of fighting but hey, they're both equally addictive. i cant remember when i started playing tekken.

[hv)pheonix]

i hope they make another one soon i mastered 4 with jin king steve lei yoshi kazuya paul and nina

[memememe173]

My IK barb has made it from act 1 hell den and is now starting the viper quest, without any problems

[~Kazama Fury~]

i hope they make another one soon i mastered 4 with jin king steve lei yoshi kazuya paul and nina
well from what ive read, there'll be signs of tekken 5 in a few months. a supposely "confirmed" source: here: http://tekkenzaibatsu.com/news/index.php?mode=article&newsid=315

[hv)pheonix]

where did that come from memememe173?

[memememe173]

where did that come from memememe173?
Someone implied that melee PvM needed 1337 gear...

[hv)pheonix]

i always thought any decent barb gear was elite if u used it right.

[memememe173]

i always thought any decent barb gear was elite if u used it right.

:scratch: o k