Kirsty and other old timers: Summons Debate

[Salo]

Hey,
I thought the summons pre-buffing issue was a moot point as of last month.

This was the forum consensus:
Spirits = pre-buff holds its level
Dogs and Bears = does NOT hold their levels
Vines = Inconclusive, less mentioned, probably hold their levels

Now, all of a sudden, FenrisWolf and 2 other big D2'rs say bears and dogs RETAIN level on a pre-buff, just not quantity.


*coffee tawk voice* Discuss.

[mepersoner]

I guess I should test that too, I'll do that when I tests rabies/fireclaws being blockable, hah.

-Mepersoner, Furry Admin

[TheKbob]

I guess I should test that too, I'll do that when I tests rabies/fireclaws being blockable, hah.

-Mepersoner, Furry Admin

Which in rought translation means, oh about 2 months...

I know that you can pre-buff shifting. That Club (fleshrender I think) with lidless wall on switch for whenever you shift.

Also, I know oak sage can be pre-buffed as well, for sure.

~Kbob

[Salo]

Which in rought translation means, oh about 2 months...

I know that you can pre-buff shifting. That Club (fleshrender I think) with lidless wall on switch for whenever you shift.

Also, I know oak sage can be pre-buffed as well, for sure.

~Kbob


yes, i have done this/do this. making a pvp is a bit dull im noticing. he's up to 73rd level. just clacked on a SS. nothing that grand as far as excitement goes. flaming rabies, gona duel/pk with him i hope.

[FenrisWulf]

Small nitpick: Summons don't retain quantity. :p I was making the point that they only maintain quality. Anyhow...

Ravens Test
(Test 1)
a) Summon one slvl 14 Raven (listed: 25 hits)
b) Go into NM Blood Moor
c) Lure zombie, allow Raven to attack.
d) Observed # of attacks: 25

(Test 2)
a) Summon one slvl 14 Raven (listed: 25 hits)
b) Put Annihilus, three Summoning Charms, +3 Summoning Amulet, and Bul-Kathos Wedding Band in Horadric Cube. Current Raven level: 6, listed # of hits: 17
c) Pick on same zombie.
d) Observed # of attacks: 25

(Test 3)
a) Summon one slvl 6 Raven (listed: 17 hits)
b) Let Raven attack zombie.
c) Observed number of hits: 17

(Test 4)
a) Summon one slvl 6 Raven (listed: 17 hits)
b) Put back on all +skills gear mentioned earlier. Current Raven level: 14, listed # of hits: 25
c) Once more, attack zombie.
d) Observed number of hits: 17
e) Shoot zombie with Bow, killing in one hit. He was getting on your nerves, anyway.

(Conclusion)
Ravens can be prebuffed (and also anti-prebuffed), at least in terms of number of hits.

[mepersoner]

Summons confuse me, I wonder if ravens retain their damage?

Look here: http://forums.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=156725

-Mepersoner, Furry Admin

[FenrisWulf]

Carrion Vine Test
(Setup)
a) Take off +8 skills.
b) Let zombie pack beat on you for a while. Life goes to 878 out of 1627.


(Test 1)
a) Summon slvl 6 Carrion Vine (7% Life Heal).
b) Kill one zombie (Life goes to 890, due to leech).
c) Carrion Vine consumes corpse. Life goes to 1003.
d) 1003 - 890 = 113, 7% of 1627.

(Test 2)
a) Resummon slvl 6 Carrion Vine (7% Life Heal).
b) Put back on +8 skills. Total life increases to 1710 (on account of +Life items)
c) Kill one more zombie (Life goes to 1078, through +Life and leech).
d) Gogo Carrion Vine. Life goes to 1197.
e) 1197 - 1078 = 119, 7% of 1710.

(Test 3)
a) Summon slvl 14 Carrion Vine (9% Life Heal).
b) Kill another zombie (Life goes to 1199, due to leech).
c) Carrion Vine does his thing. Life goes to 1352.
d) 1352 - 1199 = 153 = 9% of 1710.

(Test 4)
a) Resummon slvl 14 Carrion Vine (9% Life Heal).
b) Take off +8 skills. Total life decreases to 1244 out of 1627.
c) Kill final zombie (finally took off those leech items).
d) Carrion Vine, I choose you! Life goes to 1390.
e) 1390 - 1244 = 146 = 9% of 1627.

(Conclusion)
Carrion Vine (and probably the other Vines) can be prebuffed.

I'll work on figuring out the Ravens damage in a sec, but at least those side topics are out of the way. It is true that the main Summons (Grizzly, Dire Wolves, and Spirit Wolves) are the more interesting case, since we know that there is at least some amount of checking to see how many of them are out.

EDIT: After looking at the thread you linked to: I removed my gear outside of town for Test 4. I'll play around with it some more.

[FenrisWulf]

Ran Test 2 of the Ravens Test a few more times, with different variations (weapon swapping, items removed in town or outside of town, et cetera). Always got 25 attacks.

I also thought to drop my levels down by two more, so that I Summoned a slvl 12 Raven (23 attacks) and unbuffed to slvl 4, to see if hitting the "check if I have too many Summons summoned" point would kick in and drop stats. Still got the prebuffed number of attacks, though (23).

EDIT:
Summoning slvl 9 Raven, then dropping +8 skills (outside of town): 20 hits
My connection just went down, though, so I'm out for a bit.

[Kirsty]

I'm going to retest raven again tomorrow. I think I was just too tired when I did my tests. :yawn:

[Green_Squirrel]

IIRC Grizzlies received the same PvP penalty as players in 1.10 (17%)? A level 20 Grizzly should be doing 160-176 to its opponent who has zero DR aye? I attempted a test and was surprised to see it dealt 282 damage. Was I misinformed on his PvP penalty?

[ƒenris]

I'm not a vet and I really don't care...can't help ya.

[Green_Squirrel]

I'm not a vet and I really don't care...can't help ya.

Then why post?

[ƒenris]

Because I know you're all wondering 'where is fen teh vet!!!1'

[Salo]

I'm not a vet and I really don't care...can't help ya.


isnt that, speeeeshul, hm?


--------

well, If bears can be, this would change the game for my new up and comming redone Hunter/summons quite a bit. great going people :)

and if anyone wants to talk to me, im *pontifs_revenge on USWest

[TheGreatStickels]

Poison Creeper can

and I'm fairly confidant that Spirit Wolves can

those are the only summons I've extensively worked with though.

[mepersoner]

You apparently missed my first post. O_o

-Mepersoner, Furry Admin

[TheGreatStickels]

You apparently missed my first post. O_o

-Mepersoner, Furry Admin


your second post was the only one that had any pertinance as to what I said.

and I guess I could be wrong about spirit wolves.

[proudfoot]

Nice testing FenrisWulf. Real question will be to see Dire Wolves and Grizzly, though. Also the hardest to find out...

[mepersoner]

I meant first post in the other thread. :(

-Mepersoner, Furry Admin

[FenrisWulf]

@mep:
No worries, it was definitely good testing, and I think that you're likely right. I just don't understand why it would be different for Druid Animal Summons from every other Summon I can think of, which is why I'd like to play around with it a bit later. :scratch:

[mepersoner]

If it helps any, I took my gear off and put it in the stash.

-Mepersoner, Furry Admin

[FenrisWulf]

Heh, it would be funny if hitting the stash reset your Summons. :p Eh, unlikely.

[dkay]

IIRC Grizzlies received the same PvP penalty as players in 1.10 (17%)? A level 20 Grizzly should be doing 160-176 to its opponent who has zero DR aye? I attempted a test and was surprised to see it dealt 282 damage. Was I misinformed on his PvP penalty?

so i guess this means that minions only get half the penalty cut? isnt that how it should be anyways?

[Dolph]

I may have understood this, but testing of wolves and bear shouldn't be that hard.

Correct if I am wrong:
Put on a helm with +grizzly, summon grizzly, remove helm, grizzly stays?Great, Grizzly vanish?Not so great.

But I guess it is more complicated than that, as all things in D2

[TheGreatStickels]

I may have understood this, but testing of wolves and bear shouldn't be that hard.

Correct if I am wrong:
Put on a helm with +grizzly, summon grizzly, remove helm, grizzly stays?Great, Grizzly vanish?Not so great.

But I guess it is more complicated than that, as all things in D2


we know that the # of summons will dissapear if you take of to many skill points, its wether the quality remains that is in debate.

[Dolph]

Oh, it feels like I knew that
4,5 h sleep does that to you.

Oh well, never mind the non-vet

[mepersoner]

IIRC Grizzlies received the same PvP penalty as players in 1.10 (17%)? A level 20 Grizzly should be doing 160-176 to its opponent who has zero DR aye? I attempted a test and was surprised to see it dealt 282 damage. Was I misinformed on his PvP penalty?
Were you using HoW, or any auras, or not factoring in the % ED from grizzly? I know it's a 17% p v p cut for sure because of my tests with spirit wolves in the other thread for fireclaws/rabies/summon tests.

-Mepersoner, Furry Admin

[Green_Squirrel]

I'm not very experienced in calculations, but let's see, a level 20 Grizzly lists 945-1039. That in PvP is 160-176 right? If the opponent had no DR, and I had no auras activated, what else is there to calculate?

You mention factoring % ED attained by the Grizzly's passive bonus, which is already calculated into listed Grizzly damage right? What have I missed?

This is most likely an error on my part, perhaps I'll try again later.

[Salo]

I'm not very experienced in calculations, but let's see, a level 20 Grizzly lists 945-1039. That in PvP is 160-176 right? If the opponent had no DR, and I had no auras activated, what else is there to calculate?

You mention factoring % ED attained by the Grizzly's passive bonus, which is already calculated into listed Grizzly damage right? What have I missed?

This is most likely an error on my part, perhaps I'll try again later.


argh. no one even knows what the pvp penalty is!

little hard to test then.

well way i figure it: if it hurts almot more with 25 skills on it, then you remove and hurts a lot less, then prebuff doesnt work.

it will take like 2 minutes to test.... no one is messaging me in Private messages or on here to go do a test :(

[~Kazama Fury~]

salo, go do a test.

[Green_Squirrel]

If it helps, I tested level 42 Grizzly compared to level 20. On test #1, I prebuffed level 42 then removed every bit of +skills to drop it down to 20. Test #2 I kept all the gear on for level 42. Test #1 did 282 damage, Test#2 did 1046.
Edit: Salo if you're saying I don't know what PvP penalty is, please tell me what I did wrong, and I'll be happy.

[Salo]

If it helps, I tested level 42 Grizzly compared to level 20. On test #1, I prebuffed level 42 then removed every bit of +skills to drop it down to 20. Test #2 I kept all the gear on for level 42. Level 42 did 1046 damage, level 20 did 282.

Edit: Salo if you're saying I don't know what PvP penalty is, please tell me what I did wrong, and I'll be happy.


nah its not that you dont, but so far thats been a debate now as well, what the bear gets or doesnt get as a penalty, supposedly its like better than normal pvp but only 2x as better as player vs player current nerf.

so i have no idea what that means as i dont even know what the pvp penalty is. i just swing a lot and move around.


Can anyone pull out their level 50+ any old character that can take a bunch of hits (without cta or gear, cuz i just dont want another bug to factor in)

*pontifs_revenge on USWEST non ladder

[ƒenris]

Are you saying kirsty is old :O

[Salo]

GASP NO

she is younger than me by a couple of years i think :)

[ƒenris]

GASP NO

she is younger than me by a couple of years i think :)
And you're what, 60? :lol:
J/k kirsty. :worship:

[Salo]

And you're what, 60? :lol:
J/k kirsty. :worship:

blasphemer!!

-------------


Well, ok. of all the luck, bnet is taking a dump it seems while i try and test things.

how shoddy is this????

so far we have 10 trials out of the way, but now i gota wait for bnet to clear. i really dont want to drop my **** on the ground again losing a really nice GC :(

doing it with Green Squirrel. level 9 bear vs level 24 bear. got to the fully geared and fully non geared. now going to do what happens if i dropp al the gear after making

then we going to do make him naked at 9 and then put it all on and test that. 20 tries.

damage is very big difference from 9-24 so it should show it for once and all.

[Salo]

ok, gona get all geeky on ya :)

The purpose was to see if there is a difference in damage a bear does in 4 different situations. All of these situations were vs a Werebear with no dr, -damage reduction or blocking. All in Normal mode, all in Blood moor, all 2 player total games:

The 4 categories are as follows:
1. Level 24 bear vs player
2. Level 9 bear vs player
3. Level 24 bear then dropping all gear vs player
4. Level 9 bear then picking up and equiping all gear

Gear:
Jalal's
+3 summon ammy
2 Sojs
4 Summon gc's
Darkclan crusher
Lidless
Vipermagi
------------

5 trials done, each with full health on the werebear(green squirrel)

Wait till you see the damage results :) these will really mess you up bad.

Catagory 1:
243, 257, 262, 264, 241

Category 2:
44,100,87,47, blank *battlenet died 2x forgot to redo this one*

Category 3:
82,85,82,81,82

Category 4:
146,155,157,142,148


As you can see, 1 2 3 mean prebuffing doesnt work. Category 4 means thats Blizzard is REALLY WHACKED OUT!!

thats what happens when you put gear on, you get higher than gear off, but clearly solid less than when you kept it all on after pre-buffing with all on (category 1)

so well, its odd. no idea how Category 4 came in existence.

and, Green squirrel noted that the bear did more than its supposed pvp max against him by a bit.

so figure that one out as well.

peace,
salo

[Kirsty]

And you're what, 60? :lol:
J/k kirsty. :worship:I... will... not... resppond...

[Salo]

I... will... not... resppond...


well, at least respond to my number test!!

whole point of the thread!

At another point I will woo you, but not tonight.

she aint 60 thats for sure.

[Kirsty]

I'm at work so I can't reply to your bit yet.
I do have some basic questions for you so I can work on it.

1. What damage is shown in the grizzly skill at level 9 and 24.
2. What passive %damage increase does the grizzly show at level 9 and 24.
3. Did he always attack with his maul or were some of the hits done by his normal swipe or his bite.
4. Did Green Squirrel wear any gear at all that might reduce damage (percentile or straight).
5. Did Green Squirrel have life replenishment.

[Salo]

I'm at work so I can't reply to your bit yet.
I do have some basic questions for you so I can work on it.

1. What damage is shown in the grizzly skill at level 9 and 24.
2. What passive %damage increase does the grizzly show at level 9 and 24.
3. Did he always attack with his maul or were some of the hits done by his normal swipe or his bite.
4. Did Green Squirrel wear any gear at all that might reduce damage (percentile or straight).
5. Did Green Squirrel have life replenishment.
---------------
hm well. doesnt chippy dip do the job? (i dismantled the druid to rebuild him and have no way to mule back his gear at the moment)

if no, tell me so, however, here's chips info:

Current Skill Level: 9
9: Damage: 235-297
2: Damage: +105 percent
---------------------
Current Skill Level: 24
9: Damage: 1391-1498
2: Damage: +255 percent
---------------------
not sure what those 9's and 2's are from the cutpaste. shrugs.

the guy had no dr, no replenish and no -damage reduction and has 2103 hps at every start.

now as for the swipe vs chew. darn. didnt know it was different! i knew it did different things, like one could toss tiny guys around and one had knockback on it, but damage wise i didnt know it was different. thats complicated stuff then. plus, bnet sometimes doesnt show what did what visually, especially since my bear was swinging 2-3 times before connecting when he was only level 9 vs 24.


so all but the swipe/chew/maul on the bear (he's so cute) i can account for.
i guess i would next time do 15 trials each for a 60 trial test. this should get some good results. well, so long as I know how the bear attacks. i guess i should have done the dire wolf. however, it has a low damage output and so the variance would be less noticeable, plus when you work with Bear he is only effects himself damage wise and seems more clearly defined in testing.

i think my setup was randomly the best to test with, the 15 summons difference is not too huge and yet shows a difference easily. if you had +25 summons, the range of min/max damage on bear might add too much to variability. maybe not. but eh, try geting rid of 25 skills every time to do a test trial, rather tedious.

[LifePincher]

If anyone needs my lvl 48 Grizzly for a test , let me know ;)

Post time & game name/NON LADDER !

[Salo]

If anyone needs my lvl 48 Grizzly for a test , let me know ;)

Post time & game name/NON LADDER !


MOAN 48 NON LADDER

:bow:

[LifePincher]

MOAN 48 NON LADDER

:bow:
Ok you Whiner ...........MOAN all you want , Ladder is'nt going to last much longer . Grizzly will be lvl 49 when ladder ends btw. HEAR ME Mang Song's Lesson , I'll teach you ! ! **LOL**

Hoop-Dee-Doo , Hoop-Dee-Doo ......... I hear a Polka & my troubles are through !

[Salo]

Ok you Whiner ...........MOAN all you want , Ladder is'nt going to last much longer . Grizzly will be lvl 49 when ladder ends btw. HEAR ME Mang Song's Lesson , I'll teach you ! ! **LOL**

Hoop-Dee-Doo , Hoop-Dee-Doo ......... I hear a Polka & my troubles are through !

yeah i never find a +3 bear hat, so i cant share that joy.

i do have a mang songs, well 2 of them actually, but i am getting sick of waiting for ladder to die.

i want to to die now mommy.

anyways, can anyone interpret my results on prebuffing?

[Kirsty]

hm well. doesnt chippy dip do the job? (i dismantled the druid to rebuild him and have no way to mule back his gear at the moment)

if no, tell me so, however, here's chips info:

Current Skill Level: 9
9: Damage: 235-297
2: Damage: +105 percent
---------------------
Current Skill Level: 24
9: Damage: 1391-1498
2: Damage: +255 percent
---------------------
not sure what those 9's and 2's are from the cutpaste. shrugs.I checked Chippy's at work yesterday and noticed it gave different numbers than the Arreat Summit. That is why I asked you to check them hoping you were still online. Since you didn't reply afterwards I figured you went to bed (time difference thing) and got back to work. I must admit I completely forgot to check the skill levels in game myself yesterday :o

There is a base damage of the grizzly and %passive damage. On your skill is the final damage shown = base damage + base damage * passive bonus. I would like to know the base damage as well though since it may be interesting for his maul attack (which may get a damage bonus over his normal swipes).
Maybe I can do some tests with the guys later tonight.

the guy had no dr, no replenish and no -damage reduction and has 2103 hps at every start. Very good to know. Merci

[Salo]

I checked Chippy's at work yesterday and noticed it gave different numbers than the Arreat Summit. That is why I asked you to check them hoping you were still online. Since you didn't reply afterwards I figured you went to bed (time difference thing) and got back to work. I must admit I completely forgot to check the skill levels in game myself yesterday :o

There is a base damage of the grizzly and %passive damage. On your skill is the final damage shown = base damage + base damage * passive bonus. I would like to know the base damage as well though since it may be interesting for his maul attack (which may get a damage bonus over his normal swipes).
Maybe I can do some tests with the guys later tonight.

Very good to know. Merci

oh youre welcome anytime.
I am unsure as to figure on base damage of bear.

Its really all confusing, especially the results. i can tell you that the hit with swipe and chew were all used in the testing of it all. i tihnk you need both people with a very good ping time and lots of caffeine (maybe some crystal, ahem) to pick out chew/swipe/maul and record the damage before you take another bit of damage.

i recommend a higher than 3k total defense as this will cause the bear to space out his hits more (or hers, mines a he). its near impossible to figure out whats going on when he (or she) double smacks.

id love to watch you figure this all out :) tell me when and where? ill make a newb acct to watch and maybe just pick up gear thats dropped (our game needed that)

[Kirsty]

I'll do the testing on europe probably with Strid if he's online, otherwise with some other friends of mine or with some of the FD people.

[Baranor]

I'll do the testing on europe probably with Strid if he's online, otherwise with some other friends of mine or with some of the FD people.


*scratches fuzzy head*
since when is Minion PvP damage not 1/2 ? All necro minions get a 1/2th PvP reduction, as do mercs. Why not with Bears? It would be stupid to assume that the damage would be too high that way.

[Kirsty]

My boyfriend tested the Grizzly when I was at work and here's the big conclusion. It would be nice if someone did a second test to go over them for confirmation.
From what I've seen it seems to be correct and it seems to correlate with Salo's test values (although some weird numbers do appear in his level 9 test maybe due to maul or bite attacks). I won't add the calculation in this reply, but you should be able to recalculate it after reading the whole of this.

My boyfriend only tested for the normal swipe attack and not the stunning maul or the bite. The bite appears only rarely anyhow.

All grizzly attacks are subjective to its Attack Rating so none of them are auto-hit. Since my boyfriend found both the maul and the bite to hit more easily he thinks that they have a better attack rating than the normal swipe attack.

Attacks are uninterruptable but blockable. Attack speed seems something like 7fps, but that has to be checked. The time inbetween attack seems about 25fps.

1. Grizzly suffers from pvp penalty of: 1/6
2. GRizzly is subjective to DR gear and -reduction gear
3. You keep the %damage bonus from the level you summon the grizzly at. If you add or remove +skills the base damage of the grizzly will adapt to that skill level but the %damage will stay the same.
4. HoW and other damage modifiers like might, concentration and fanaticism work on the base damage only. Fanaticism gives only half the damage to your minions as indicated by the skill itself.

Grizzly damage = Base * (100 + %passive + %grizzly maul + %HoW + %might + %concentration + 1/2 * %fanaticism)/100

The tables of base damage and passive %damage are shown below together with the listed skill damage.

Example:
A) Level 5 grizzly has 70-100 base damage and a passive bonus of 65%.
This means the grizzly damage will be: 70*1.65 to 100*1.65
Grizzly damage will be: 115 to 165

B) If you add +2 skills after he is summoned you seem to keep the 65% passive damage bonus but the base damage will revert to that of level 7, namely 90 to 120.
The final damage of your grizzly will revert to: 90*1.65 to 120*1.65
Grizzly real damage: 149 to 198
Grizzly indicated damage from the level 7 description: 166 to 222

Recasting the Grizzly at level 7 sets the damage to: 166 to 222

C) If you now remove the +2 skills to go back from level 7 to level 5 you seem to keep the 85% passive damage bonus but the base damage reverts back to that of level 5, namely 70 to 100.
The final damage of your grizzly will revert to: 70*1.85 to 100*1.85
Grizzly real damage: 130 to 185
Grizzly indicated damage from the level 5 description: 115 to 165


Prebuffing thus seems to help but only for the passive damage increase, not for the base damage.
Since only the passive damage bonus will be prebuffed, HoW, might, concentration, fanaticism don't benefit from high level recasts and gearswitches.


lvl base damage %damage shown damage
min max passive min max
1 30 60 25 37 75
2 40 70 35 54 94
3 50 80 45 72 116
4 60 90 55 93 139
5 70 100 65 115 165
6 80 110 75 140 192
7 90 120 85 166 222
8 100 130 95 195 253
9 115 145 105 235 297
10 130 160 115 279 344
11 145 175 125 326 393
12 160 198 135 376 466
13 175 205 145 428 502
14 190 220 155 484 561
15 205 235 165 543 622
16 220 250 175 605 687
17 240 270 185 684 769
18 260 290 195 767 855
19 280 310 205 854 945
20 300 330 215 945 1039
21 320 350 225 1040 1137
22 340 370 235 1139 1239
23 366 396 245 1262 1366
24 392 422 255 1391 1498
25 418 448 265 1525 1635
26 444 474 275 1665 1777
27 470 500 285 1809 1925
28 496 526 295 1959 2077
29 526 556 305 2130 2251
30 556 586 315 2307 2431
31 586 616 325 2490 2618
32 616 646 335 2679 2810
33 646 676 345 2874 3008
34 676 706 355 3075 3212
35 706 736 365 3282 3422
36 736 766 375 3496 3638
37 766 796 385 3715 3860
38 796 826 395 3940 4088
39 826 856 405 4171 4322
40 856 886 415 4408 4562
41 886 916 425 4651 4809
42 916 946 435 4900 5061
43 946 976 445 5155 5319
44 976 1006 455 5416 5583
45 1006 1036 465 5683 5853
46 1036 1066 475 5957 6129
47 1066 1096 485 6236 6411
48 1096 1126 495 6521 6699
49 1126 1156 505 6812 6993
50 1156 1186 515 7109 7293

[mepersoner]

*scratches fuzzy head*
since when is Minion PvP damage not 1/2 ? All necro minions get a 1/2th PvP reduction, as do mercs. Why not with Bears? It would be stupid to assume that the damage would be too high that way.
All summons suffer from a 17% p v p penalty in 1.10. As do mercs.

-Mepersoner, Furry Admin

[Kirsty]

yes, that's a definate.

[Salo]

yes, that's a definate.


well, thanks for your results kirsty. i guess its a little benefit to prebuff a bear on a switch as it does add some damage to it. just not anything that can be seen written down.

[Kirsty]

I have planned similar tests for spirit wolves and dire wolves but for the moment I'm going to see if I can extract the damage bonus (or penalty) that the Grizzly gets with his maul and bite attack.
It doesn't seem like anyone else is interested in this though.

[mepersoner]

Whatcha need help with darlin?

-Mepersoner, Furry Admin

[Salo]

Whatcha need help with darlin?

-Mepersoner, Furry Admin

heck I think anything this lady says draws attention.

[Kirsty]

Whatcha need help with darlin?

-Mepersoner, Furry AdminImpartial verification of my test results.. or something like that.

[Salo]

Impartial verification of my test results.. or something like that.

i do not think i can test it, but i will begin to compute the math. (no one around who is geeky like that i know besides me.