The truth about Tal's Set...

[Zroc]

Ok, I've been wanting to do this for awhile. I hell-baal a LOT, and wear Tal's full set. I actually get called a newb a lot for doing so...the most common reason given is "tal's belt/armor/ammy + hoto and shako ownz tal's set". The other most popular reason subs Occy for hoto. I'll just get that one out of the way right now...yes, with Occy and Shako, you will have 100% more mf than Tal's mask and Orb. However, like many, I cannot stand the random teleport, especially as much as I telebaal...I prefer complete control.

So then, let's take a look at Full Tal's versus Tal's armor/belt/ammy + shako and Hoto.
In order to be complete, I did NOT use a skill planner to give you these stats...I used my character, so what you're seeing is actual in-game results.
To be thorough, here's my level 87 meteorb sorc:

Hard Skill Points:
Cold: 20 points Frozen Orb/1 point Cold Mastery (I have the luxury of having a roomate who runs a max conviction pally...henceforth, me putting more points in this is a waste, due to the -100 resistance cap)

Fire: 8 in Fire Bolt, 20 in Fire Ball and Meteor, 11 in Fire Mastery (I also put a point in enchant...with plus skills, it's level 10, so I effectively add 110 fire damage and a fat 101% AR bonus to my party and their mercs/minions for 360 seconds every run...worth it, imo).

Equipment is Tal's set, 3 um'd Headhunters, Chance Guards, War Travs, and 2 sojs. In inventory, I don't run any skill charms except an anni...for that matter, I run exactly an anni, a 40% gheeds, and 20 7% magic find charms.
For this test, I will simply be swapping out Tal's Orb (it's a 2/2/2 orb...vital, imo, to at least have the 2's in the skills you use) and Tal's mask with Hoto and Shako.

Damage: I will be focusing on Frozen Orb, Meteor, and Fire Ball damage.

With Tal's set:
Frozen Orb is at level 29, damage is 482, Cold Mastery is at level 12.
Fire Ball is at level 29, damage is 5199, Fire Mastery is at level 22.
Meteor is at level 29, damage is 11115, Fire Mastery at level 22.

Subbing Hoto and Shako:
Frozen Orb is at level 30, damage is 432, Cold Mastery is at level 11.
Fire Ball is at level 30, damage is 5333, Fire Mastery is at level 21.
Meteor is at level 30, damage is 11385, Fire Mastery at level 21.

Just glancing at the numbers, they're pretty damn close, eh? First impression would be that your Frozen Orb is significantly better with Tal's, while Fire Ball and Meteor are slightly better with Hoto and Shako.

But that would not be accurate without further investigating the 'other' Tal's Orb effects...namely +15% Cold Damage (which is obvious above) and -15% Fire and Lightning Resistance (which is not).

Let's take Hell Baal for example, as he has 50% resistance against both cold and fire:

----
Tal's Frozen Orb: 482 damage, 50% Baal Cold resistance -75% resistance from level 12 CM; net effect is 482 + 25% = 602.

Hoto/Shako Frozen Orb: 435 damage, 50% Baal Cold resistance -70% resistance from level 11 CM; net effect is 435 + 20% = 522.

I do 80 more points of FO damage with Tal's over Shako/Hoto...this represents a rather stout 15.3% more damage.

----
Tal's Fire Ball: 5199 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -15% resistance from Tal's Orb; net effect is 5199 -35% = 3379.

Hoto/Shako Fire Ball: 5333 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -0% resistance from equipment; net effect is 5333 -50% = 2666.

Oww...I do 713 more points of Fire Ball damage with Tal's over Shako/Hoto...this represents a HUGE 26.7% more damage with Tal's.
This pretty much tells you what'll happen with Meteor...

----
Tal's Meteor: 11115 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -15% resistance from Tal's Orb; net effect is 11115 -35% = 7224.

Hoto/Shako Meteor: 11385 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -0% resistance from equipment; net effect is 11385 -50% = 5692.

Yep...I do 1532 more points of initial Meteor damage with Tal's over Shako/Hoto...this represents a fat 26.9% Meteor damage improvement with Tal's Orb/Mask over Hoto and Shako. Naturally, this applies to the per-second burn damage from Meteor as well.
----

In a nutshell, I do 15.3% more Frozen Orb damage, 26.7% more Fire Ball damage, and 26.9% more Meteor damage using Tal's Orb and mask to complete the set versus using Hoto and Shako in conjunction with Tal's armor/ammy/belt. Folks, that's a LOT more damage.

Just because I want to be complete in this thread, I'll compare the added stats outside those already mentioned (skills, damage modifiers):

Tal's Orb, Mask, and set bonus gives you:
-50% Faster Cast...please note here that if you just use belt/armor/ammy, you lose the 10% bonus on the ammy...net effect by using Hoto/Shako is a 10% FCR gain.
-267 life (57 Orb, 60 Mask, 150 set bonus)
-10 energy from the orb (effect gets boosted by sojs)
-107 Mana (77 Orb, 30 Mask)
-25% Faster Hit Recovery (I like this for telebaalin)
-150 defense, +50 versus missiles
-65% All Resists (15 from Mask, 50 from set bonus)

The replensh +10 life and 65% magic find bonuses are shared between the two setups.

Shako and Hoto gives you:
-2 to all attributes
-130 Life and 130 Mana (1.5 per char level...I'm level 87)
-10% Damage Reduction
-10% net more Faster Cast Rate (see explaination above)
-75% more melee damage to demos and 100 AR to demons (uh, who cares)
-3-14 cold damage and 7% mana leech (because I melee so much)
-10 Dex (nice for max block sorcs)
-Replenish Life +20
-Increase Maximum Mana 15%
-All resists between 30 and 40

What all that means on my character screen is:
With Tal's, I have 1147 life, 873 mana
With Hoto/Shako, I have 1014 life, 892 mana

So I have a lot more life and a little less mana with Tal's. Those differences will change 1.5 per level +/- where you're at compared to level 87.

So Hoto/Shako, as far as useful stats, gets me a little more mana, 10% faster cast, 10 dex, and +20 to replenish life...at the cost 15.3% FO damage, 26.7% FB damage, 26.9% Meteor damage, a lot of life, 25% faster hit recovery, roughly 100 defense (more versus missiles), and somewhere between 25 and 35% Resist All, depending on the quality of your Hoto.

Meh, I'll stick with Tal's ;)

This example is for a meteorb sorc...actually, he's becoming more of a Fireball sorc each level, cuz 5100+ damage not on a timer is rather effective, and I will continue to invest 1 point into Fire Bolt and two in Fire Mastery as I level.

I suspect these net results would be similar for other builds, including lightning, simply because of the +2 mastery and -15% on the lightning Tal's Orb would give. Commentary/proof welcome on that...I don't have a light sorc.

This is also a commentary on your basic pvm/mf sorc gear...this sorc with ist'd tals/ptopaz tal's helm and armor runs 513% mf standard (333 from equipment, 180% from charms), and then weapon-switches to a dual ist'd Baba and 3-isted Headhunter's for boss kills (adds 222 mf at level 87) for a total of 735% when whacking a boss, not counting my merc (who runs quite a bit...over 300, so if the merc kills, I'm well over 1000% mf). I think that's a rather respectable magic find percentage given the fact that I have really good kill speed and max resistances.

That was fun...commentary welcomed ;)

[TitanCentaur]

Nice analysis. I my self consider tal armor/belt/ammy is better than the entire tal set. I will take a second look at the whole set. I'll post my result some time.

[Celandro]

The numbers pretty much match up with the theoretical calculations Ive done. However, Im a pure lightning sorc and Griffons Eye far outmatches the full set bonus, so then its a comparison of 4 set orb bonus vs. Hoto.. Guess which wins.. Crescent Moon rune word with its whopping -35% enemy lightning resist. Trick question ;)

[TitanCentaur]

Crescent Moon rune word with its whopping -35% enemy lightning resist. Trick question ;)

I thought Cresent Moon weapon -35% lit resist only applies when it is attack, not when using a spell. I may be wrong.

[Celandro]

I thought Cresent Moon weapon -35% lit resist only applies when it is attack, not when using a spell. I may be wrong.

Seems to be working just fine for me, I can notice the difference against Mephisto unless its my imagination talking...

[TitanCentaur]

Seems to be working just fine for me, I can notice the difference against Mephisto unless its my imagination talking...

Nvm, you are right. Look at tal orb it has the same bonus as cresent moon weapon. I bet bliz didn't intend sorc to start wacking monster with tal orb either so... :)

[Celandro]

Nvm, you are right. Look at tal orb it has the same bonus as cresent moon weapon. I bet bliz didn't intend sorc to start wacking monster with tal orb either so... :)

Whacking monsters with my mythical sword sure is fun though!

Not that my attack rating is high enough for that to be an effective strategy :(

[Zroc]

Titancentaur: yes, please do play with it to confirm my results. Just by observation in playing, I notice a difference, yet I had my doubts because SO many told me to use hoto/shako. And using skill calcs seemed to back that up. But when I actually do it, on my character, it all comes together for Tal's.

Celandro: Ooo, nice. Yeah, just by looking at what -fire resistance does to fire damage in my post, I would think -15-20% on a griffon's eye WOULD be rather significant (not to mention the +10-15% increased damage and 25% FCR, which is far more important to a light sorc than a meteorb sorc).

Hmm, however, like titan mentioned, I don't think cresent moon actually does work with spells (I tried Doom, didn't seems to notice a jump in damage).
Regardless, that would be a pretty tough call...if it works, it's a huge -35% resistance, but the cost is 1 raw skill, 2 points in mastery (which, if it works like fire mastery, is a rather huge 24% addition to your post-synergy damage), and 30% total faster cast rate (20 from orb, and 10% additional bonus on the ammy for wearing 4 pieces), along with the 25% faster hit recovery for 4 pieces.

If the -35% works, it's almost a toss-up, particularly if that additional 30% FCR hits another breakpoint. If it does NOT work...well use Tal's immediately ;)
Might be worth looking into? I'd think with a decent amount of playing time using both, you'd find out pretty quickly.

[Celandro]

Titancentaur: yes, please do play with it to confirm my results. Just by observation in playing, I notice a difference, yet I had my doubts because SO many told me to use hoto/shako. And using skill calcs seemed to back that up. But when I actually do it, on my character, it all comes together for Tal's.

Celandro: Ooo, nice. Yeah, just by looking at what -fire resistance does to fire damage in my post, I would think -15-20% on a griffon's eye WOULD be rather significant (not to mention the +10-15% increased damage and 25% FCR, which is far more important to a light sorc than a meteorb sorc).

Hmm, however, like titan mentioned, I don't think cresent moon actually does work with spells (I tried Doom, didn't seems to notice a jump in damage).
Regardless, that would be a pretty tough call...if it works, it's a huge -35% resistance, but the cost is 1 raw skill, 2 points in mastery (which, if it works like fire mastery, is a rather huge 24% addition to your post-synergy damage), and 30% total faster cast rate (20 from orb, and 10% additional bonus on the ammy for wearing 4 pieces), along with the 25% faster hit recovery for 4 pieces.

If the -35% works, it's almost a toss-up, particularly if that additional 30% FCR hits another breakpoint. If it does NOT work...well use Tal's immediately ;)
Might be worth looking into? I'd think with a decent amount of playing time using both, you'd find out pretty quickly.

I do have tals set, griffons eye and crescent moon to choose from. I do recall when I switched to crescent moon from tal orb with light facet in it that I killed mephisto almost twice as fast. The issue with doom rune word is that it stacks with cold mastery which makes it ineffective. Ormus robes for example works the same way.. its great for a cold sorc, horrible for everyone else, because it will stack with fire and light masteries. For cold sorcs, best weapon is Deaths Fathom for the same reason crescent moon works.

[Zroc]

That part about Doom/cold sorcs certainly makes sense. And if you're killing Meph twice as fast, I'd have to assume that it IS working, cuz I believe Meph has 75% lightning resist.

Just for curiosity's sake, if you could, next time you're on, write down your damage with cresent moon equiped, and then the damage with Tal's orb equiped, and post it here (just swap those two). I'd like to run the math on it (and post the stats on the lightning facet in your tal orb).

Thanks!

[Celandro]

That part about Doom/cold sorcs certainly makes sense. And if you're killing Meph twice as fast, I'd have to assume that it IS working, cuz I believe Meph has 75% lightning resist.

Just for curiosity's sake, if you could, next time you're on, write down your damage with cresent moon equiped, and then the damage with Tal's orb equiped, and post it here (just swap those two). I'd like to run the math on it (and post the stats on the lightning facet in your tal orb).

Thanks!
Theres a slight complication.. I sold my tals armor already because I needed more fcr from the armor and belt slots (vipermagi and arachnids mesh). I may be able to do the test again sometime though..

[Stormcryer]

When I first started to construct the archmage build I was testing I did the math with equipment etc, and finally had to opt for the complete Tal Set.

Using it with twin soj, uped viscer, war travs and magefist was the only way I could add stats to all the main attributes that I needed to make the build work. + Skills, +FCR, increased damage, + res, and of course the residual MF.

It's worked great for me. The MF, Life and addidional skills you can get from charms. Try to find an FCR Charm......or a max + to chance of blocking charm....LOL

Storm

[whathappen]

We had a discussion on the tal rasha set in this forum yesterday or so and that was precisely the point some of us made about the Tal rasha set. That is very effective for a meteorb. Your numbers prove that our suspicion was right. Very good analysis.

The discusison is here:

http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=149973

[melianor]

Very nice analysis Zroc!
I'll follow up confirming your build and the values with my Meteorb sorc and alternative Occy/Shako setup.

The way i see it, -xx% res, +xx% dam and (with best orb) +2 to masteries adds enough to outshine the other setups. Its funny to see that you dont loose +skills that way :p

The only way to get more killing power would be to ditch the whole Tal's Set (except ammy) and substitute with UM+Viper, Arachnid, Occy/HotO, Shako, which i am playing around now with. I get the same Res than as with the Tal's setup but i lack some life and other stuff (though FCR suddenly is crazy)

In your comparison though i absoluty agree that Full Tal's outshines and half Tal Set breed in any way. Some people jst dont want to do the calculations and miss out on the -xx%res and +xx%dam. Match that with a perfect Tal's Orb and you can build Archmage or Meteorb very effective.
The point is that Tal's Set is useful on a 2-tree or 3-tree build but not on single-tree.

Thx for couting it all out to us!

[Stiertje]

....Try to find an FCR Charm......or a max + to chance of blocking charm....LOL

Storm

I hope this was being sarcastic :scratch:

[Zroc]

Thanks guys!

I can save you a little bit of trouble, melianor...I went back to my character, and went with viper/arachnid along with hoto/shako. This gave me a level 32 meteor with 13134 damage, which, if you cut it in half, is 6567...still a lot less than the 7224 I was effectively doing with Tal's. Easy math would tell you you'd need to hit 15K to beat the Tal setup, basically. FO was 466 compared to 482 on the Tal's gear.

Remember, though, this is more an analysis for magic finding AND killing power, in which I'm not sure Tal's can be matched. The kill power is there, the resistances let me add mf in spades. Again, I'm running 513% mf standard (333 from equipment, 180% from charms), and then weapon-switches to a dual ist'd Baba and 3-isted Headhunter's for boss kills (adds 222 mf at level 87) for a total of 735% when whacking a boss, not counting my merc (who runs quite a bit...over 300, so if the merc kills, I'm well over 1000% mf). I experimented with ist'd occy and shako over full tal's (which adds 100%mf), and as described above, my kill power drops a LOT, and I lose a whopping 45 all resists...which means I'd have to pull a lot of 7% mf charms out of inventory to make up for that. Which ties into...

I also get negative comments for running um's in my shield instead of ists. Well, I look at it this way...two um's gives me 44 resists, two ists gives me 50 mf. It would take me 9 5% all-resist charms (which don't exactly grow on trees) to get 45 resists...however 9 7% mf charms gives me 63 magic find. Certainly more economical, and that allowed me to load up on my weapon-switch. Personally, I like max resists....not a big fan of dying ;)

[Ulric]

Forget all the analysis. You forget the cool visual effect of having the whole set. That alone is worth more that few hundred extra points of damage.

Ulric

[nataku00]

Forget all the analysis. You forget the cool visual effect of having the whole set. That alone is worth more that few hundred extra points of damage.

Ulric

In terms of killing power, tal's set is very comparable, if not better than partial set/hoto/shako. However, most ppl would sub occulus and shako for tal orb/helm for magic find, and in that regard, I'd rather have the magic find since I don't have that many 7% mf sc on ladder :P

Very well done on the argument though, taking into account of the pros and cons for each set up :clap:

[dadiXtrema]

Eh! the aura gets in the way =D. I personally don't care either way what's happening as long as i can efficently bash and smash (or cast and blow up... your pick) as quickly as I can =). Gooooo

Occy
Shako
Skullders
Lidless
arachnids
soj
perf nagel ring
Mara's
war travs

:innocent:

plus its all for fun anyway! "whatever floats your boat" =)

[Zroc]

Hmm...just realized I over "um'd" my shield. I could've gotten all max resists from one um in the Headhunters (the big poison and fire on that thing help a lot). Dammit, I could've gone two ists!

Well, now that I think about it, I should go with two fire facets and an um. That extra -10 fire resists will go a long way...sweet!

[Soepgroente]

One more thing, you ain't losing 100 mf but only 35, since the full set grants another 65% bonus. Makes tal's look real good eh? :) :drool:

[Ter]

the good thing about the "standard" desire for the partial Tals set is that it makes the Orb fairly easy and cheap to trade for...

unfortunately...I'm still a green laquered plate away from completing the set myself so I'll just be envious of both camps until I can get one.

[Stormcryer]

Stiertje,

NOPE
Sarcasim is much to insulting for such a fine group of folks..... :innocent:

Let's say "dry wit" instead. While quite the same, it doesn't sound as nasty as sarcasim.... :surprise:


She said with tongue planted so firmly in cheek so as to mimic a sprouting appendage from the lower mandible region. :lol:

Storm

[Zroc]

One more thing, you ain't losing 100 mf but only 35, since the full set grants another 65% bonus. Makes tal's look real good eh? :) :drool:
You actually get that 65% bonus from three pieces (ex: belt, armor, ammy), which is why I said 100%.

Basic point was, Tal's set owns Hoto+Shako and Tal's Armor/belt/ammy...for basically any sorc build. Griffin's Eye and Cresent Moon would appear to would give a light sorc a good deal more damage (I still need to see the numbers to get an exact figure), but at a rather steep life/mana/resistance/magic find cost. Death's Fathom/Shako could give a pure cold sorc a decent damage boost, but that again has a steep cost.

[mistiquo]

Outstanding analyses! Wish I could bring up the patience to do something like that too...

[Soepgroente]

You actually get that 65% bonus from three pieces (ex: belt, armor, ammy), which is why I said 100%.
Hmm, the arreat summit states that you get another 65% for the full set........

EDIT- seems they copied partial set bonusses into the full set bonusses, that's where my confusion came from, sorry :)

[nataku00]

Hmm, the arreat summit states that you get another 65% for the full set........

EDIT- seems they copied partial set bonusses into the full set bonusses, that's where my confusion came from, sorry :)

Yep, they include the partial set bonuses when they list the full set bonuses. So occy + shako would give you 100 more mf if you want more mf (and most sorcs are for mf'ing :P) But as someone has already said, wear whatever you want. Everyone is afforded that flexibility in choosing their equip.

[jonnybow]

Eschuta's Temper makes fire spells do more dmg than occy/hoto .
(and it goes cheaper)

[melianor]

Eschuta's Temper makes fire spells do more dmg than occy/hoto .
(and it goes cheaper)
But you lack other goodies then, like resists added energy and vita, etc....

[Zroc]

mistiquo: thanks ;) Though I consider it time well spent, making sure I'm doing the best I can with my sorcy. I'd encourage others to do some of their own investigating...skill planners seem to be a little off, and don't account for -resistance impact.

jonnybow: I agree AND disagree on that one. Say you had a perfect fire eschutas...+3 skills, and +20% fire skill damage. Same skills as hoto/occy, but +20% more fire damage.
Let's take the hoto numbers...
"Meteor is at level 30, damage is 11385, Fire Mastery at level 21."
...and add 20% to 11385, which would be 13662.

Now, let's see what it does against Baal:
Eschuta's/Shako Meteor: 13662 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -0% resistance from equipment; net effect is 13662 -50% = 6831.

Contrast that to the full Tal's end result:
Tal's Meteor: 11115 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -15% resistance from Tal's Orb; net effect is 11115 -35% = 7224.

So even though the screen says eschuta's is doing 13662 versus 11115 for Tal's set, your end result is Tal's does 7224 versus 6831 for eschuta's.

Just goes to show how important -resistance can be against certain monsters. This naturally varies from monster to monster, depending on their inherant fire resistance. Let's play around with this a little...

For simplicity, let's just take a 10000 meteor (this would apply to any skill damage and any resistance to it, actually).

Say a monster has 0 fire resistance. If something adds 15% damage at this point, it adds exactly 15% net damage. Example:

10000 damage + 15% = 11500 damage, 0% monster resist -0% player resistance (net +0% damage) = 11500 net damage.

Same thing if something give -15% resistance against a 0 resistant monster...negative resistances directly add that percentage to your net damage:

10000 damage + 0% = 10000 damage, 0% monster resist -15% player resistance (net +15% damage) = 11500 net damage.

Now let's do that with a 50% resistant monster, such as hell Baal:

10000 damage + 15% = 11500 damage, 50% monster resist -0% player resistance (net -50% damage) = 5750 net damage.

10000 damage + 0% = 10000 damage, 50% monster resist -15% player resistance (net -35% damage) = 6500 net damage.

Now, against a monster with 75% resistance, such as hell Mephisto:

10000 damage + 15% = 11500 damage, 75% monster resist -0% player resistance (net -75% damage) = 2875 net damage.

10000 damage + 0% = 10000 damage, 75% monster resist -15% player resistance (net -60% damage) = 4000 net damage.

As you can see in the above examples, +% damage becomes less effective the higher the monster's native resistance is, while - resistance becomes a LOT more effective the higher a monster's native resistance is.

Then there's the opposite...take a monster with -50% native resistance, such as Hell Andariel:

10000 damage + 15% = 11500 damage, -50% monster resist -0% player resistance (net +50% damage) = 17250 net damage.

10000 damage + 0% = 10000 damage, -50% monster resist -15% player resistance (net +65% damage) = 16500 net damage.

The opposite happens....+% damage becomes more important when a monster's native resist is zero or less, while - resistance becomes less important.

(For those of you who run Andy, and have noticed that Fire Ball and Meteor just WASTE her...now you know why. She has -50% fire resistance).

---------

I'm going to try to sum up how to tell whether +% damage or - resistance is more important against any particular monster.

For +% damage, you're going to subtract the monster's end net resistance (it's base resist +/- the players resistance modifier) from your modifer percentage.

Examples:
+15% damage modifier, against a monster with 0% net resist, will give you 15 - 0% = 15% net more damage.

+15% damage modifier, against a monster with 95% net resist (say, uber diablo), will give you 15 - 95% = 0.75% net more damage. Yep, that's it...less than 1% more damage.

+15% damage modifier, against a monster with -95% net resist, will give you 20 - (-95%) = 39% net more damage. Just turn those two negatives into a positive to make it easier.

Now, for -resistance modifiers, it's not as simple. If the monster's net resistance is 0% or negative, -resistance percentage = + damage percentage, straight up...as in -15% will do 15% more damage.

However, if the monster HAS resistance...well, the easiest way I can describe this is: subtract that percentage from 100, as it's working against you. Turn that percentage into a fraction, then invert it. Examples of that are:
50% resistance = 100-50 = 50%, which = 1/2 as a fraction, which equals 2/1 (or 2) inverted.
75% resistance = 100-75 = 25%, which = 1/4 as a fraction, which equals 4/1 (or 4) inverted.
95% resistance = 100-95 = 5%, which = 1/20 as a fraction, which equals 20/1 (or 20) inverted.
(At 100% or higher, their immune, so you'll do nothing without a conviction pally or lower resist necro or wand)

Now, take the number you got above, multiply it times your -resistance modifier...and you'll have the net damage affect of that modifier.

As in...
Take a -15% modifier against 50% resistance (which was 2 from above), and your net damage effect is 15 * 2 = +30% more damage.
Take a -15% modifier against 75% resistance (which was 4 from above), and your net damage effect is 15 * 4 = +60% more damage.
Take a -15% modifier against 95% resistance (which was 20 from above), and your net damage effect is 15 * 20 = +300% more damage.

And yes, that's really 300% more damage...take Uber D, for example, who has 95% fire resist:

10000 damage + 0% = 10000 damage, 95% monster resist -0% player resistance (net -95% damage) = 500 net damage.

10000 damage + 0% = 10000 damage, 95% monster resist -15% player resistance (net -80% damage) = 2000 net damage.

500 + 300% = 2000, which is what that goofy formula I wrote told you it would do (my math teacher would probably kill me if he saw this).


Blah, blah, blah...let's just say Tal's set is probably the best equipement for a meteorb sorc ;)

[melianor]

Totally agree and that were some nice figures ;)

[RunningUppercut]

I too am a lover of the Tals set, and I enjoy all the bonuses that come along with it. The superior resists/+life and mana and damage make the set very useful. Being able to do worldstone with Maxed resists is an awesome thing. I can't do that with other MF setups.

[Singollo]

imo the ppl using the hoto and shako are just sheep from the huddled masses. sure hoto my help a necro or pally, but i think any of the 3 sorc orbs are better then hoto. i too use the tal set over other options.

as for doom on cold sorc.... :lol: i tryed it and then tryed deaths fathom, its a lot better then doom :winner:

nice work on the tal set info, i still think the huddled masses will stay as one, and go on using hoto. thay are after all sheep

[Zroc]

I agree.
I love Hoto for my pally. And actually, I run Hoto+um'd Lidless on my trapassin...this works surprisingly well with enigma to make a really effective telebaal assassin (that 60% faster cast is mega helpful for tele speed).

I just don't see the point on a sorcy, though. And actually, if you just used a skill planner, it'd lead you to believe that hoto/shako is slightly better than completing tal's set. It isn't until you sit down, on your character, and do the math, that you realize that tal's set just owns that setup.

[kockblocker1]

Great job dude. I totally agree. Tals Set is hands down the best equipment balance for any sorc build. It's just too bad the other sets aren't as good as tals for their character class (i.e. Trangs, Aldurs, IK). Sorcs got it REAL good in 1.10

[ioupain]

Great job dude. I totally agree. Tals Set is hands down the best equipment balance for any sorc build. It's just too bad the other sets aren't as good as tals for their character class (i.e. Trangs, Aldurs, IK). Sorcs got it REAL good in 1.10

I agree - i just wish i could get tal's armour - oh well looks like it is just occy and shako for me till i find me 1

[FirstDown_Again]

Full Tals set ? What a newbie :)

jk. Good job. Makes me wish I hadn't traded my Tals armor away.

[Zroc]

Well, the good news there is, Tal's armor is trading at an all-time low. A Mal rune will buy one now (oddly enough, it is equal to Tal's ammy now). One with defense above 930 is just about an ist.

Sad, but true.

[ioupain]

Well, the good news there is, Tal's armor is trading at an all-time low. A Mal rune will buy one now (oddly enough, it is equal to Tal's ammy now). One with defense above 930 is just about an ist.

Sad, but true.

Is that a 1.10 tal's armour?

Is hell meph able to drop it as i only have a blizzard sorc and so thats all the running i really do

[Stiertje]

Is that a 1.10 tal's armour?

Is hell meph able to drop it as i only have a blizzard sorc and so thats all the running i really do

Nope, Hell Meph can't drop Tal's Armour.

And as for the Mal rune for Tal's, well, I would never trade a Tal's for a Mal unless I'm recieving the Tal's. Too bad actually, seeing as I have 3 Tal's armours lying around collecting dust.

[Stiertje]

Almost forgot to post it, to further bash all HotO, Shako and Enigma/CoH users, with Tal's you're able to use 2 additional Fire Facets. This would get the aforementioned "elite" equipement users more in a disadvantage because it will give you an additional 10% extra damage AND an extra -10% enemy resistance. This would simply CRUSH any extra skillpoints these "elite" equipement has over Tal's.

Like I said before, it's not ALL about getting absolute MAX skills.

I'm gonna do the math on several popular setups tomorrow. Have to sleep now and get up early. More to come.

[Singollo]

i dint think that tal set is the only good set for characters, trang makes the necro look awsome, u dont need ammy and weapon to use ful set so u can have some nice set ups with it, aside from the casting bug its a good set too,

[Mule]

What I find to be lacking is cast rate? The set alone grants 50%, what are you going to trade in to get more?

[Stiertje]

What I find to be lacking is cast rate? The set alone grants 50%, what are you going to trade in to get more?

Magefist or 2x 10% FCR rings. I'd go Magefist all the time for Fire based char.

[Talon0835]

Tal's Ammy is more than Tal's armor on USEast Ladder. lol

[melianor]

Magefist or 2x 10% FCR rings. I'd go Magefist all the time for Fire based char.

Magfists are good for any build, even if it cannot use the +1 Fire Skills.
Thats also the place i get my extra FCR from to reach the breakpoint at 63% FCR. Another option is ofcourse Lidless if you are not going for max-blocking with your build.

[melianor]

Almost forgot to post it, to further bash all HotO, Shako and Enigma/CoH users, with Tal's you're able to use 2 additional Fire Facets. This would get the aforementioned "elite" equipement users more in a disadvantage because it will give you an additional 10% extra damage AND an extra -10% enemy resistance. This would simply CRUSH any extra skillpoints these "elite" equipement has over Tal's.

Like I said before, it's not ALL about getting absolute MAX skills.

I'm gonna do the math on several popular setups tomorrow. Have to sleep now and get up early. More to come.

Right stertje, i am search now for perfect Fire/Cold Facets for my Meteorb build.
I am not sure though if i should insert 2 Fire Facets, or 1 Fire 1 Cold. -%xx res works more than +xx% damage, right?
Also instead of Ptopazing your Armor you can add another Facet there.
For Archmage Build i would have 1 Facet of each, with Tal's Orb giving:

Fire: +5%dam (almost like 1 FM)/-20% res (!)
Lightning: +5%dam/-20% res (!)
Cold: +20% dam/-5% res (!) For FO this is like 10(!) points in Icebolt!!!

Also dont forget to calculate the extra +2/+1 on all Masteries!
Found a perfect Orb once :teeth:, still using it.

Considering when building an archmage i dont know which facets i would insert. Thinking of boosting the Lightning Tree here.
with 3 perfect Lightning Facets you get:

+2 Lightnin Mastery (Tal's Orb)
3 Lightning facets + Orb: +15%damage / -30% res

-30% res on Lightning is simply crazy, comes even with using a Crescent Moon runeword, except for 5% and has more benefits than having to carry one of those runwords for a pure Lightning build.
Also opposed to Mang Songs lesson Tal's weapon is an Orb, so there is another slot free for a Shield.

With the rigth facets and some skillers added this build can outshine any other Sorc equipment, simply for the -xx% res added.

You could put a Facet in your Shield aswell ofcourse...
Soem great possibilities here!

[Stormcryer]

HMMMM,,

The many facets of the Facet.

[Stiertje]

Ok, doing some of the math on a Pure Fire sorc with full synergies and prereqs (Fire Bolt, Fire Ball, Meteor and Fire Mastery at slvl 20). I'm going to calculate damage done to monsters with various Fire Resistances for some equipement setups.



First setup, the max skillpoints setup;

Headgear Shako (+2 skill)
Amulet Mara's (+2 skill)
Armour Enigma/Chains of Honor (+2 skill)
Rings Stone of Jordan (+2 skill)
Weapon Heart of the Oak (+3 skills)
Shield Lidless Wall (+1 skill)
Gloves Magefist (+1 Fire skill)
Belt Arachnid Mesh (+1 skill)
------------------------------------------------------------ +
Total +13 skill - +1 Fire skill



Now how does this relate in damage (avarage);

Fire Bolt 7586
Fire Ball 10983
Meteor 22244

Let's take Fire Ball and see the damage it does to increasingly resistant monsters in steps of 25%, starting with non-resistant;

0% resistant 10983
25% resistant 8237
50% resistant 5491
75% resistant 2746

This is all kinda straight forward and the numbers are easy to calculate. Increasing resistance decreases skill effectivity by the same amount. Now we throw in 2 perfect Fire facets and see how this works on this setup. (Shield + Helm)

There's only one slight complication here. the +% to Fire skill damage is calculated on the hard skill points invested, and not on the +skill. This means the +% damage is added to the base skill damage just like the synergies. I don't want to manually calculate this all through because that would be too much work, but essentially the extra 10% to Fire damage is just below the % of a synergy level of Fire Bolt. The synergy bonus of Fire Bolt boils down to almost 2.2% at these levels, so I'm going to use 2% for further calculation.

The -% to enemy resistance works differently. This number is calculated AFTER all additions, so it effectively works on the WHOLE fire damage, including Fire Mastery and +skill added damage. This makes the -% to enemy resistance by far the most important mod on a Fire Facet. +% to damage is almost neglectable, -% to enemy resistance is NOT.

So, to go to the numbers, with 2 facets for setup like this, the actual damage from Fireball would be;

Fire Ball 11203

And the effect on the various resistance monsters would be like this;

0% resistant 12323 (12.2% increase)
25% resistant 9523 (15.6% increase)
50% resistant 6722 (22.4% increase)
75% resistant 3921 (42.8% increase)





Hmn, it's all going to be a bit longer then expected. I'll follow with the Full Tal's Setup with also as much possible skills as possible.

Second setup, the Tal's setup;

Headgear Tal's Horadric Crest
Amulet Tal's Adjudication (+2 skills)
Armour Tal's Guardianship
Rings Stone of Jordan (+2 skill)
Weapon Tal's Lidless Eye (+2 Fire Mastery)
Shield Lidless Wall (+1 skill)
Gloves Magefist (+1 Fire skill)
Belt Tal's Finespun Cloth
Set Bonus +3 skills
------------------------------------------------------------ +
Total +8 skill - +1 Fire skill - +2 Fire Mastery




This relates into damage to this (avarage);

Fire Bolt 3823
Fire Ball 7821
Meteor 17624

Because of the Tal's inherent -15% to enemy Fire resistance the numbers already calculate differently then the max skill setup. We again take Fire Ball and see how it affects various resistant monsters.

0% resistant 8994
25% resistant 7039
50% resistant 5084
75% resistant 3128

You can see that around 60% resistance is the turnpoint in damage output. With lower resistances the max skill setup wins but at about 60% the numbers are almost equal. Even more resistance and the Tal's setup starts to win.

But now we're going to calculate with additional Fire facets in the setup. The Tal's setup has place for 4 perfect Fire facets. This accounts for +20% extra damage on the base skill damage and -20% to enemy resistance. The extra damage will boil down to about 2.5% extra damage at these levels since it is only slighty more the a synergy level from Fire Bolt. The -% to resistance will be an overall -35% to fire resistance.

So, for the 4 facet setup the actual damage from Fire Ball is;

Fire Ball 8017

And for the various resistant monsters it will be;

0% resistant 10823 (20.3% increase)
25% resistant 8819 (25.3% increase)
50% resistant 6814 (34% increase)
75% resistant 4810 (53.8% increase)

With this setup the turnpoint is already at around 40%. Above 40% resistance the Tal's setup wins from the max skill setup. It has a notable 22.7% increased performance at 75% resistance, and will only increase when these numbers are even higher (for PvP and such)





Phew, quite a piece of text we have here. Now there's only one thing I would like you te reflect on. This is a gear-only setup. When someone has some more time (or when I feel like it) there could be an addition to this with a full inventory of Fire Skillers. The only thing I will say (and you can calculate through it if you don't believe me) is that the turning point in damage output will be even lower with those additional Fire Skillers. With additional Fire Skillers the Tal's Setup will even outshine the Max Skill Setup at 10% resistance.




Done.
Start bashing them "Elite" min/maxxers

[Celandro]

I did a similar comparison for Lightning damage and I want to mention a few things.

1) Griffons Eye blows away full tals set. Its not even close. Without full set bonus, tal orb looks a bit worse.
2) Crescent moon rune word and 6 facet phase blade are both the highest pure damage weapons for a pure lightning build.
3) 4 facet shield is the highest pure damage shield.

Conclusion: Use your equipment to get -enemy light resist, use your inventory to get +skills


Unsubstaniated theorizing: For any pure build, use your inventory for +skills, use your equipment to give you -enemy fire resist, -enemy light resist or +% cold damage. Try not to sacrifice too much FCR/resists to get your damage numbers up. Rings, amulets, gloves and boots are the key here.


PS. For lightning damage calculations, see post 2 here: http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=140158

[Mule]

Magefist or 2x 10% FCR rings. I'd go Magefist all the time for Fire based char.
The reason I ask is the original calculations weren't based on mage fists, but rather chancies for the lacking MF, so somewhere some additional MF needs to be deducted.

[melianor]

The reason I ask is the original calculations weren't based on mage fists, but rather chancies for the lacking MF, so somewhere some additional MF needs to be deducted.

Lacking MF?!

112 Ptopaz armor
15 Belt
65 setbonus with 3 items
22 rare mf/res boots
30-40 Gheeds
-----------------
244-254 mf I think thats just fine, no?

Maybe Ali/Rhyme on switch and thats really enough for killng bosses even without gheeds and boots.

[DaemonX]

Sorry what the heck is hoto?

[Talon0835]

'Heart of the Oak' Runeword [Ko + Vex + Pul + Thul]

[illa]

Tals set is dead boring, not enough fcr and not enough mf I think its a pain in the *** using it and can only be justified if one doesn\t have any elite gear.

[Stiertje]

Tals set is dead boring, not enough fcr and not enough mf I think its a pain in the *** using it and can only be justified if one doesn\t have any elite gear.

And what would you consider elite gear?

And assuming you have elite gear, what's yours?

[Zroc]

Mule: Yes, what they said. You could choose to give up (in my case) roughly 40 mf from the chance guards and go magefist, or 50 from the shield and run an um'd lidless (again, I run ist/ist/um headhunters by choice). Personally, the um'd lidless is a pretty good idea, because of the big mana boost and extra skill. And in my case, it'd just drop my mf from 1101 to 1051 anyway ;) I find 50% fcr enough for magic-finding baal running with a meteorb sorcy...if you're caster is more fcr based, by all means.

illa: I put in considerable effort to show why Tal's set is actually quite good. And yes, I have all the 'elite' gear, which is not as effective for kill-power/magic find as Tal's. Why don't you back your flame up with some fact?

Here's my gear:
-Ist'd Tal Orb
-Ptopazed Tal Mask and armor
-Tal's belt and ammy
-Now running a Um/Ist/Ist Headhunter's shield
-2 sojs
-38 chance guards, 48 war travs
-Anni, 40% gheeds, and 20 7% mf charms
-Weapon switch: dual-ist'd Baba and 3-isted Headhunters

Adding that up, I run 382% MF from my main equipment, and another 180% from charms, for a respectable 562% magic find from my standard killing gear. I get another 222% magic find on my weapon switch for the final boss blow, boosting that to 784%. My merc runs an eth tomb reaver (amn/ist/ist), ptopazed shako, and ptopazed upgraded skullders for another 317% magic find, so if he gets the kill, it's at 1101% magic find total.

Both me and my merc have max resists, which I find necessary for soloing baal at a decent speed. I COULD boost that magic find another 60% by using two 30% nagels, but I prefer to run 2 sojs for the kill power and massive boost to energy shield effectiveness.

So I'm running 1101% magic find, and could run more. While not the absolute best, I'd say that's pretty damn good, considering my killing power and max resists.

For that matter, I could replace all my magic find charms with 10 skillers, and still be at max resists (actually, way more, cuz I could run up to 10 resist sc's). And then replace the three ists, um, and two ptopazs I've socketed with six facets for another +30%/-30%.

I prefer to run high magic find, but Tal's set surely allows me to stack up on damage if I wished.

[Njx]

Anyone mind explaining to me where this +xx % - %% <insert element here> comes from? I checked the dii.net sets, tal's, and can't find this attribute, you guys mind a newb to tal's set to explain where this comes from ?

[Zroc]

It's from the set bonuses applied to Tal's Orb from running more than one piece of the set...specifically:

+1 To Sorceress Skill Levels (2 Items)
-15% To Enemy Fire Resistance (3 Items)
-15% To Enemy Lightning Resistance (4 Items)
+15% To Cold Skills Damage (Complete Set)

Total bonuses and set details here:
http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/sets/sets7.shtml#talrashas

[Stiertje]

Anyone mind explaining to me where this +xx % - %% <insert element here> comes from? I checked the dii.net sets, tal's, and can't find this attribute, you guys mind a newb to tal's set to explain where this comes from ?

The information on either Diabloii.net or the Arreat Summit is sometimes not correct.

To take the Tal's set as an example, the partial and inherent bonusses on particularly the Orb is screwed. Diabloii.net fails to specify the variation in the + to masteries and the partial set bonusses like the +1 to sorc skills and the +% cold damage and the -% enemy fire and lightning resistance.

Arreat Summit does have this information about the Tal's set, but in the Elite Unique boots section it actually misses a brand new item, the Mermans Sprocket.

So, in short you should not necesarily rely on the information that you find on those two sites. IMO the Arreat Summit has the most up to date information, though not always complete.

[Killfrenzy]

the only problem with tals set is the butt-ugly mask

[LordDrift]

I did what everyone elkse did

Occy + Tals

[PsycoCarrot]

I think that your analysis of the Tal Rasha's set is absolutely accurate. You showed no bias towards it, just plain facts. Bravo. I recently acquired the full Tal's set, after reading your thread, and I haven't used my occy since. Thanks!

[Zarhrezz]

Arreat Summit does have this information about the Tal's set, but in the Elite Unique boots section it actually misses a brand new item, the Mermans Sprocket.

So, in short you should not necesarily rely on the information that you find on those two sites. IMO the Arreat Summit has the most up to date information, though not always complete.

That's probably because the Merman's Sprocket aren't enabled in any patch. As far as I know, the Summit has the most accurate and complete information. This site's item section seems to be stuck in 1.09.

[Stiertje]

That's probably because the Merman's Sprocket aren't enabled in any patch. As far as I know, the Summit has the most accurate and complete information. This site's item section seems to be stuck in 1.09.

Hmn, that could be it. Someone I know claims to have seen it, but maybe he just forgot he saw it @ diabloii.net and afterwards thought he saw it ingame. I've never seen the thing, but to be absolutely sure you'd have to find a 3x durability rare in that item class.

[Stiertje]

I think that your analysis of the Tal Rasha's set is absolutely accurate. You showed no bias towards it, just plain facts. Bravo. I recently acquired the full Tal's set, after reading your thread, and I haven't used my occy since. Thanks!

One down, many more to go :thumbsup:

[Iron Kitty]

For my meteorb, I've been using a wand of lvl 2 lower resist on weapon switch (with the standard occy/shako/tal armor/tal belt/tal ammy set up). The -37% resists for 22 seconds makes a huge difference in killing speed. One downside is the expense of repairing/recharging the wand.

[Azonian]

For my meteorb, I've been using a wand of lvl 2 lower resist on weapon switch (with the standard occy/shako/tal armor/tal belt/tal ammy set up). The -37% resists for 22 seconds makes a huge difference in killing speed. One downside is the expense of repairing/recharging the wand.


ort +chipped +cube = fully repaired /fully charged item :lol:

[-Edicius-]

I have a question for you Zroc,
I use full tal's set along with the usual MF gear. My mf is around 270-300 because one of my friends said that was a perfect amount to find necessary elites and such. I was just wondering what kind of items you find because i want to know if i should put MF on my merc and add some more MF to my lvl 95 sorc. Thanks :)

[Stiertje]

I have a question for you Zroc,
I use full tal's set along with the usual MF gear. My mf is around 270-300 because one of my friends said that was a perfect amount to find necessary elites and such. I was just wondering what kind of items you find because i want to know if i should put MF on my merc and add some more MF to my lvl 95 sorc. Thanks :)

Did your friend also tell you why 270-300% is a perfect amount?

Around this percentage the deminishing returns for MF% really kicks in. The actual increase in MF% is far less then the stated MF% for gear. However, more is always better. The thing is that many people trade in much killing power to get as much MF% as possible, and this will hurt your overall MF, because you kill slower.

Remember, MF is all about statistics. You can get lucky off course (me got an Arkains Valor on a first Baalrun of a day once) but mostly it's how many monsters you can kill with an amount of MF% in an amount of time. If one of the two get's too low, then you need to decrease the other.

My level 95 sorc has 575% MF for normal killing, and 700% MF on swap for final bosskill. She has no problem with Baal & Minions as it is, but for instance using Chance Guards would seriously impare my sorc's FCR, and hence killing power.

[Zroc]

Thanks, PsycoCarrot...much appreciated, and enjoy your Tals ;)

Iron Kitty: Yes, it certainly does. That's why I almost exclusively team-magic find with a max conviction pally partner.

Edicius: I agree with Stiertje. After 300 or so is when the returns start diminishing very quickly. But yes, unique drop chance still does increase the higher you go, so wear as much as possible.
Yes, I do notice it. I run hell Baal a LOT. My conviction pally makes the games, so I keep my champion status and get the bossq drop when killing Baal. With this high of magic find, I almost never see a blue item drop, and it's not uncommon for me to have 4 or 5 uniques pop in a single Baal drop.

[raiderjb]

Hey

Great job Zroc.

I was so unconvinced about which way was the best that I built 2 MF sorces. Both meteorb variants and level 89 and 86.

Level 89 3 item and level 86 full Tal

Well I was so impressed with the Tal Set version that I invested in a 4 ist shield for the weapon switch and rebuilt the sorc to equip an ss for general running. You may as well if youve spent your stat points for a 4 Ist Monarch.
Your post just confirmed what I was seeing playing the game.

Apart form that I wold say my set up is pretty much the same as yours and Im happy

Yesterday Pindle dropped me a nice little Hydra Bow so Hey everything in the garden is rosy.

The next time someone says to me U NOOOOOB full Tal LOOOOOL I will just refer them to your post

Just for once the mega rich rolling in it players cant have it all there own way

Thx again

[melianor]

Recently i have seen alot Sorcs using Tal's Set. i dropped in a Hell/Baal game and we had (including me) 4 shining Ladies ;)

I still think though that it is important to add skillers to that setup and also as an add perfect facets :)

Otherwise everything is fien with that set, except ofcourse as ever the look of that dreaded mask! :cheesy:

[Stiertje]

Recently i have seen alot Sorcs using Tal's Set. i dropped in a Hell/Baal game and we had (including me) 4 shining Ladies ;)

I still think though that it is important to add skillers to that setup and also as an add perfect facets :)

Otherwise everything is fien with that set, except ofcourse as ever the look of that dreaded mask! :cheesy:

I think we've changed some people's minds about the Tal's set. I think at least some of the 1679 viewers of this article have changed their gear from the L33t Uber Gear to the Tal's gear.

[create2xs]

My pvm/mf lvl 90 cl/fo soft sorc uses COH, Shako, Isted Occy, 2 soj's, Arachnid mesh, perf Maras, Um'd SS... it destroys the full tals set I also have in my chest. Tho the set is 1.09, I hear they have made improvements on it since 1.1...

c

btw- my merc wears enigma, delirum, and doom, he rocks

[Zroc]

Heh, thanks guys...glad you're diggin' the thread ;)

create2xs: certainly a fine setup, no doubt. Whether that's actually better than Tal's is up to the beholder, though...as I mentioned, I focused on killing power AND magic find, and from the magic find perspective, my setup is certainly better than yours. Yours would certainly be better at straight pvp (though I'd ditch the occy).

Hmm, well yes, if it's 1.09, and doesn't get all the 1.10 bonuses, that certainly WOULD be poor, no doubt.

[tooth]

zroc what made you choose a 3s headhunters over a 4s monarch for your mf switch?

also very nice article. you just made one more follower :P

[melianor]

zroc what made you choose a 3s headhunters over a 4s monarch for your mf switch?

also very nice article. you just made one more follower :P

I think he meant 3s Headhunters Glory?
+320-420 Defense (varies)
+300-350 Defense vs. Missile (varies) (!)
Fire Resist +20-30% (varies) (!)
Poison Resist +30-40% (varies)
+5-7 Life After Each Kill (varies) (also nice...)
Socketed (1-3)

Required Level: 75
Required Strength: 106 (which is less than 4xIST monarch, which has 156str req.)

[Zroc]

Thanks tooth ;)
Exactly what melianor posted...enormous defense (mine has 574 def), with even more against missiles, big fire and poison (particularly poison...mine has 40%, and that's the one resistance Tal's is a little lacking in), and pretty low str at 106...much lower than 156 for monarch.

Again, though, I choose energy shield over max block. I just like it better, even with just a single point in it and only one in telekinesis. Wearing 2 sojs means points in mana add up pretty fast. I typically have around 2000 life and 2000 mana after battle orders...I regen so fast, it's effective. In a typically telebaal run, I use 1 or 2 mana potions, if any at all. And a mana pot fills up the ball 1000 times quicker than a life pot will.

The alternative, naturally, is going max block with stormshield, and then 4 ist monarch on switch. Instead of putting points in mana, you'd put points in str for your shield, and then dex to keep max block up.

Really a matter of preference. I prefer es, cuz it saves me from a bad pack of gloams/souls or stygian furies, or anything blocking or dr doesn't affect.

I'd rather have an empty mana ball than an empty life ball any day ;)

[melianor]

Just to undermine one of the points made at the beginning of this thread:
When you add a few Skillers to wearing the full Tal's Set it really starts to shine. I recently got hold of some 2xFireskillers and 1xColdskiller and noticed a BIG difference.

With Full Tal's Set, Shield, Soj, Magefist and Anni i get
Fire: +12skills
Cold:+10skills
add +2 extra from Masteries on the orb aswell

With the -15% res for Fire the damage output starts to skyrocket compared to a "just" +12skills setup with the usual uniques like shako, occy, etc....

Battling Mephi with FB/Meteor and static was incredibly fast compared to the damage i did with a similiar +12 skills setup. His healthbar dropped just as fast, as if i would be using FB/FO.

This set rocks, when you add some skillers. Apart from all the other goodies on that set the main part that makes it so viable are the stats on the Orb.
Right now i am on a mission to get 2xperfect Fire facets and 1xperfect Cold Facets to socket into Orb/Mask/Armor. This should increase damage output even further.

All i can say: If you really want to kill faster get -xx% Fire/lighting/cold resistances gear. But also keep in mind you will need sufficient/equal +skills to outdo a similiar setup without -xx% res!

[fe-crazywolf]

All I can say is that tal's set owns hands down in hardcore the life bonuses and dmg bonuses are awesome and it has decent enough +skills, in hardcore ladder the armor alone sometimes trades for a soj.

[happyface95]

In an instance where I "sacrificed" killing power for MF. I use ist occy/shako ist with tals set and I get :

20 res anni
40 res tal
30 Anya
75 cold
35 lightning (-15%/15 res jewel)
30 occy
________

+120 all res, max cold, 55 lightning, coupled with a few mf/res charms I still get enough res.

My life is well enough to survive and the Might Merc does plenty of damage with its Eth Bonehew.

I kill at the approximatly the same speed, since i dont use orb or Meteor.

[NyTStrykE]

Well I can say that I am convinced, I switched to it today from Shako/Occy. There is a noticeable difference in killing speed, but not very large. My sorc is a meteorb sorc on ladder with:

Full Tal's Set (fire facet on armor)
War Travs
Sancturary Troll Nest
Frosties
Nagelring
~+17 Dex rare ring with other stuff

Including the bonuses,
Meteor Max
Fireball Max
Fire Mastery Max
Frozen Orb Max
Cold Mastery 15

She has about 72% block, ~240 mf, 1100 life, and about 750 mana. I have to say I enjoy the nearly 300 more life I have than previously. I seriously tried to use Magefists instead of Frosties, but I found myself running out of mana quickly when teleporting (Andy, Meph, Countess runs). So I had to switch back. Any ideas? I have like 500 mana using magefists.

I am going to put Occy + Rhyme on weapon switch to increase in the mf department. (don't have the necessary "resources to get isted stuff" after 6 of my chars expired after my 3 month break). I think this will be sufficient. Quick question though, if I meteor, then weapon switch, is current mf calculated when the monster dies or mf at the time of the click of the mouse?

[Superhal]

couple mana charms are a good way to control mana in general, not just the tal's set. gc's are the best ratio, like up to 20 mana/square possible.

[FistOfHeaven]

[QUOTE=Zroc]Ok, I've been wanting to do this for awhile. I hell-baal a LOT, and wear Tal's full set. I actually get called a newb a lot for doing so...the most common reason given is "tal's belt/armor/ammy + hoto and shako ownz tal's set". The other most popular reason subs Occy for hoto. I'll just get that one out of the way right now...yes, with Occy and Shako, you will have 100% more mf than Tal's mask and Orb. However, like many, I cannot stand the random teleport, especially as much as I telebaal...I prefer complete control.

So then, let's take a look at Full Tal's versus Tal's armor/belt/ammy + shako and Hoto.
In order to be complete, I did NOT use a skill planner to give you these stats...I used my character, so what you're seeing is actual in-game results.
To be thorough, here's my level 87 meteorb sorc:

Hard Skill Points:
Cold: 20 points Frozen Orb/1 point Cold Mastery (I have the luxury of having a roomate who runs a max conviction pally...henceforth, me putting more points in this is a waste, due to the -100 resistance cap)

Fire: 8 in Fire Bolt, 20 in Fire Ball and Meteor, 11 in Fire Mastery (I also put a point in enchant...with plus skills, it's level 10, so I effectively add 110 fire damage and a fat 101% AR bonus to my party and their mercs/minions for 360 seconds every run...worth it, imo).

Equipment is Tal's set, 3 um'd Headhunters, Chance Guards, War Travs, and 2 sojs. In inventory, I don't run any skill charms except an anni...for that matter, I run exactly an anni, a 40% gheeds, and 20 7% magic find charms.
For this test, I will simply be swapping out Tal's Orb (it's a 2/2/2 orb...vital, imo, to at least have the 2's in the skills you use) and Tal's mask with Hoto and Shako.

Damage: I will be focusing on Frozen Orb, Meteor, and Fire Ball damage.

With Tal's set:
Frozen Orb is at level 29, damage is 482, Cold Mastery is at level 12.
Fire Ball is at level 29, damage is 5199, Fire Mastery is at level 22.
Meteor is at level 29, damage is 11115, Fire Mastery at level 22.

Subbing Hoto and Shako:
Frozen Orb is at level 30, damage is 432, Cold Mastery is at level 11.
Fire Ball is at level 30, damage is 5333, Fire Mastery is at level 21.
Meteor is at level 30, damage is 11385, Fire Mastery at level 21.

Just glancing at the numbers, they're pretty damn close, eh? First impression would be that your Frozen Orb is significantly better with Tal's, while Fire Ball and Meteor are slightly better with Hoto and Shako.

But that would not be accurate without further investigating the 'other' Tal's Orb effects...namely +15% Cold Damage (which is obvious above) and -15% Fire and Lightning Resistance (which is not).

Let's take Hell Baal for example, as he has 50% resistance against both cold and fire:

----
Tal's Frozen Orb: 482 damage, 50% Baal Cold resistance -75% resistance from level 12 CM; net effect is 482 + 25% = 602.

Hoto/Shako Frozen Orb: 435 damage, 50% Baal Cold resistance -70% resistance from level 11 CM; net effect is 435 + 20% = 522.

I do 80 more points of FO damage with Tal's over Shako/Hoto...this represents a rather stout 15.3% more damage.

----
Tal's Fire Ball: 5199 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -15% resistance from Tal's Orb; net effect is 5199 -35% = 3379.

Hoto/Shako Fire Ball: 5333 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -0% resistance from equipment; net effect is 5333 -50% = 2666.

Oww...I do 713 more points of Fire Ball damage with Tal's over Shako/Hoto...this represents a HUGE 26.7% more damage with Tal's.
This pretty much tells you what'll happen with Meteor...

----
Tal's Meteor: 11115 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -15% resistance from Tal's Orb; net effect is 11115 -35% = 7224.

Hoto/Shako Meteor: 11385 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -0% resistance from equipment; net effect is 11385 -50% = 5692.

Yep...I do 1532 more points of initial Meteor damage with Tal's over Shako/Hoto...this represents a fat 26.9% Meteor damage improvement with Tal's Orb/Mask over Hoto and Shako. Naturally, this applies to the per-second burn damage from Meteor as well.
----

In a nutshell, I do 15.3% more Frozen Orb damage, 26.7% more Fire Ball damage, and 26.9% more Meteor damage using Tal's Orb and mask to complete the set versus using Hoto and Shako in conjunction with Tal's armor/ammy/belt. Folks, that's a LOT more damage.

Just because I want to be complete in this thread, I'll compare the added stats outside those already mentioned (skills, damage modifiers):

Tal's Orb, Mask, and set bonus gives you:
-50% Faster Cast...please note here that if you just use belt/armor/ammy, you lose the 10% bonus on the ammy...net effect by using Hoto/Shako is a 10% FCR gain.
-267 life (57 Orb, 60 Mask, 150 set bonus)
-10 energy from the orb (effect gets boosted by sojs)
-107 Mana (77 Orb, 30 Mask)
-25% Faster Hit Recovery (I like this for telebaalin)
-150 defense, +50 versus missiles
-65% All Resists (15 from Mask, 50 from set bonus)

The replensh +10 life and 65% magic find bonuses are shared between the two setups.

Shako and Hoto gives you:
-2 to all attributes
-130 Life and 130 Mana (1.5 per char level...I'm level 87)
-10% Damage Reduction
-10% net more Faster Cast Rate (see explaination above)
-75% more melee damage to demos and 100 AR to demons (uh, who cares)
-3-14 cold damage and 7% mana leech (because I melee so much)
-10 Dex (nice for max block sorcs)
-Replenish Life +20
-Increase Maximum Mana 15%
-All resists between 30 and 40

What all that means on my character screen is:
With Tal's, I have 1147 life, 873 mana
With Hoto/Shako, I have 1014 life, 892 mana

So I have a lot more life and a little less mana with Tal's. Those differences will change 1.5 per level +/- where you're at compared to level 87.

So Hoto/Shako, as far as useful stats, gets me a little more mana, 10% faster cast, 10 dex, and +20 to replenish life...at the cost 15.3% FO damage, 26.7% FB damage, 26.9% Meteor damage, a lot of life, 25% faster hit recovery, roughly 100 defense (more versus missiles), and somewhere between 25 and 35% Resist All, depending on the quality of your Hoto.

Meh, I'll stick with Tal's ;)

This example is for a meteorb sorc...actually, he's becoming more of a Fireball sorc each level, cuz 5100+ damage not on a timer is rather effective, and I will continue to invest 1 point into Fire Bolt and two in Fire Mastery as I level.

I suspect these net results would be similar for other builds, including lightning, simply because of the +2 mastery and -15% on the lightning Tal's Orb would give. Commentary/proof welcome on that...I don't have a light sorc.

This is also a commentary on your basic pvm/mf sorc gear...this sorc with ist'd tals/ptopaz tal's helm and armor runs 513% mf standard (333 from equipment, 180% from charms), and then weapon-switches to a dual ist'd Baba and 3-isted Headhunter's for boss kills (adds 222 mf at level 87) for a total of 735% when whacking a boss, not counting my merc (who runs quite a bit...over 300, so if the merc kills, I'm well over 1000% mf). I think that's a rather respectable magic find percentage given the fact that I have really good kill speed and max resistances.

First of all I have to say that I give respect for your post, it was not some n00bish "Tal Set Rules" without giving any validation to the statement. However my sorc is pretty much solely for magic find runs and you cannot get near the mf using Tal set then using IstOccy(I use instead of hoto for the mf),PtopazShako. Now using the tal rasha 3 piece armour,ammy,belt you get 112armour with ptopazin socket, 15 from a perfect belt,and a good 65 from the set bonus. So that gives you all the mf of the tal set plus 80from istoccy, 74from ptopaz shako, and in my estimation my killing power is still equal to the tal set. So for a mf the tal set in inferior,also what mfers do baal,meph is far more dependable for items then baal and alot easier to get 2.

[melianor]

I seriously tried to use Magefists instead of Frosties, but I found myself running out of mana quickly when teleporting (Andy, Meph, Countess runs). So I had to switch back. Any ideas? I have like 500 mana using magefists.

I am going to put Occy + Rhyme on weapon switch to increase in the mf department. (don't have the necessary "resources to get isted stuff" after 6 of my chars expired after my 3 month break). I think this will be sufficient. Quick question though, if I meteor, then weapon switch, is current mf calculated when the monster dies or mf at the time of the click of the mouse?

Get a SOJ for Mana ;) or a good FCR ring with mana. There are rare ones with 10%fcr and like 80 Mana + other mods. Magic ones with 10FCR and like 80-100 Mana are nice too.

MF is ALWAYS calculated when the monster dies, no matter which of the spells you cast kills it. Its an illusion that MF is coupled with the spell that kills the monster! This myth has been around too long i guess. MF is calculated when you kill and not how you kill. Always your full amount!! THe rest is just luck.

[melianor]

First of all I have to say that I give respect for your post, it was not some n00bish "Tal Set Rules" without giving any validation to the statement. However my sorc is pretty much solely for magic find runs and you cannot get near the mf using Tal set then using IstOccy(I use instead of hoto for the mf),PtopazShako. Now using the tal rasha 3 piece armour,ammy,belt you get 112armour with ptopazin socket, 15 from a perfect belt,and a good 65 from the set bonus. So that gives you all the mf of the tal set plus 80from istoccy, 74from ptopaz shako, and in my estimation my killing power is still equal to the tal set. So for a mf the tal set in inferior,also what mfers do baal,meph is far more dependable for items then baal and alot easier to get 2.[/QUOTE]

The conclusion was that you will not get the tons of MF with Tal's, but compared to any other setup you will get the best combination of killing power and MF, when adding some GC Skillers to your set. With Skillers and Tal'S you can get +12 easily for your preferred trees and then you do not only equal damage but even more, due to the -xx% resist.

Have you crunched the numbers concerning killing power?
The more damage you do the more the -xx% will kick in. At +12 skills with Tals Set i noticed a really significant change in killing power, especially in the Fire tree!

When you can kill faster you will eb able to do more runs. With my switchsetup for Meph i get 409MF. Those added 100 to 500 would not really be necessary if you can kill faster ;)

[Zroc]

Heh, this post is still going...thanks for the props, guys ;)
FistOfHeaven: " However my sorc is pretty much solely for magic find runs and you cannot get near the mf using Tal set then using IstOccy(I use instead of hoto for the mf),PtopazShako."

Yes, I addressed that in the very first paragraph...you will get exactly 100% more magic find from ist'd occy and ptopazed shako than ist'd tal's armor and ptopazed tal's mask.

The rest of my post basically explains why I don't think 100% magic find is worth giving up everything I went into detail on in the rest of the post.
Yes, I could run 1200% magic find versus 1100% magic find, but is that worth almost doubling the time and risk of my runs?

In my opinion, no.
-------

Man, melinor...nice work ;) I might nab a couple fire skillers and dump a few 7% mf charms...

[melianor]

Some people just dotn get what you intended to say Zroc :cheesy:

Concerning the added damage. I would like to get hold of 2perfect Fire Facets and 2 perfect cold Facets, pushing the -xx% res to 25%. That would be an even higher improvment. Combine that setup with Skillers and you will just gap at the killing speed.
I never saw Meph dropping as fast as now with those Skillers added and using FB/Meteor. Comes up to the same speed as using FB/FO.

[big_aug]

Very good thread. Ive been a fan of the tal's set since i first tried it. Right now my sorc is almost 83.

Using full tals along with some mf and vita charms she has:
1386life
555mana
Max Block
Max Resists
312MF before switch
452mf after switch

She takes down meph quickly with meteor and fireball disposes of andy extremely fast. Orb for clearing

Also, I HIGHLY suggest that if you dont wanna put points in Energy shield as I didn't, you find a +2 sorc skill +2eshield orb. It works wonders. With that orb I have 8eshield with no points invested. Saving the 6 or so points that it takes to get eshield is very nice for meteorb who has to skimp for points.

[Stiertje]

Very good thread. Ive been a fan of the tal's set since i first tried it. Right now my sorc is almost 83.

Using full tals along with some mf and vita charms she has:
1386life
555mana
Max Block
Max Resists
312MF before switch
452mf after switch

She takes down meph quickly with meteor and fireball disposes of andy extremely fast. Orb for clearing

Also, I HIGHLY suggest that if you dont wanna put points in Energy shield as I didn't, you find a +2 sorc skill +2eshield orb. It works wonders. With that orb I have 8eshield with no points invested. Saving the 6 or so points that it takes to get eshield is very nice for meteorb who has to skimp for points.

Erm, Energy Shield and 555 mana, how does that combine? I mean, you're gonna have to swallow a lot of mana potions when you ever get hit. And with 1300+ life, full resist and full block it really isn't needed. I would say it's more inconvenient then usefull in most times.

[Zroc]

I hear ya, melinor ;) I like her how she is at the moment...remember, I run with a conviction pally, so I get a fat -150 resists all the time ;)

If I was making her a pure killer/rusher, I'd prolly go two fire facets/um in a headhunters, then two more in the armor and helm, then a cold facet in the orb. Then pile up skillers (both cold and fire)...she'd do some serious damage ;)

I agree with Stiertje...not enough mana for my taste. With that much life, I'd think SS/blocking. The pally I run with uses CTA, and I end up with 2000 life and mana, which makes it very convienent. 1000 mana is enough for me, imo, to run ES and get enough regen/fast-mana recovery from mana potion.

[Zroc]

Bump...friend wanted to see this.

[SaVe_ExIt_PlZ]

DAMN!!!! made me think again i might just go trd my hoto n shako for the tals mask n orb even though i probly have on e a mule...sumwhere :yawn: i guess ill have to go look

[Stormcryer]

She has about 72% block, ~240 mf, 1100 life, and about 750 mana. I have to say I enjoy the nearly 300 more life I have than previously. I seriously tried to use Magefists instead of Frosties, but I found myself running out of mana quickly when teleporting (Andy, Meph, Countess runs). So I had to switch back. Any ideas? I have like 500 mana using magefists.


Twin SOJ will bring mana regen up considerably. I use these for tele, and then switch off to dual nagels for the mf kill.

BTW My tal setup with a gheeds, switch to daul ist ali and rhyme shield, twin nagels, and a goldwrap (tal set remenants (armor [ptopazed], ammy, mask, and orb) tops out well into high 500s. I usually moat Meph, so I have a few seconds to switch off my gear, (which is either left back in town, or in my cube) before delivering teh final blow. I run with the pure MF gear when pit running as I always take my merc along for these run just for tanking.

[tooth]

Zroc, you never mentioned what equipment your merc uses. ;)

[PhoenixOmega]

Excellent work Zroc and others...bravo to the highest degree :winner:

Question...what is you guys' stance on blocking? I've got a ss currently so i could trade for pretty much any shield i wanted...but i want to know if blocking is worth the jazz? I have ~170 points in dex as it is (im lvl 87 also ;)) and i would hate to waste those points with a shield like lidless. Currently my ss is 67% blocking which translates to 55% due to the inverse effect of dex to blocking(weird). If I eld'd my ss i would have 74% blocking of which i would get the full 74%. Is this worth it? Am i a r3tard for wanting blocking? I already have 75% resists on all in hell.

I've got full tal set :uhhuh:
Sandstorm Trek
Magefists
couple bad rings :P

also...i have a 1.09 tal ammy...how can i tell when i trade if an ammy is 1.09 or 1.1?

[TonyDanza]

Also wouldn't Moser's Blessed Circle with two 5/5 fire facets also compliment Tal's Set nicely?

[biffo]

Excellent work Zroc and others...bravo to the highest degree :winner:

Question...what is you guys' stance on blocking? I've got a ss currently so i could trade for pretty much any shield i wanted...but i want to know if blocking is worth the jazz? I have ~170 points in dex as it is (im lvl 87 also ;)) and i would hate to waste those points with a shield like lidless. Currently my ss is 67% blocking which translates to 55% due to the inverse effect of dex to blocking(weird). If I eld'd my ss i would have 74% blocking of which i would get the full 74%. Is this worth it? Am i a r3tard for wanting blocking? I already have 75% resists on all in hell.

I've got full tal set :uhhuh:
Sandstorm Trek
Magefists
couple bad rings :P

also...i have a 1.09 tal ammy...how can i tell when i trade if an ammy is 1.09 or 1.1?

It depends on your play style, and what else, if anything, you need those dex points for, but blocking is definitely worth it. Personally, I like getting into the thick of it, and in that case you can't beat the SS. Max block + DR = you live! ;)

[tooth]

I think the points would be much better used in Vit and Energy, to make the use of ES even more efficient. 170 points in DEX is A LOT, and from my experience (lvl 94 sorc) you need a lot of health and mana, and you definetly need ES (if you want to stay alive). Just cause you block 75% of the time, doesn't mean they can't hit you 10 times out of 10, although you'd be dead on the 3rd or 4th hit :P

[John_Connor]

My old non-ladder sorc went the vit/nrg route, while my ladder meteorb sorc uses max block. In 1.09 I was perfectly happy with the vit/nrg setup, but I find it really annoying now. If I'm not mistaken, elemental damage is applied to your energy shield before resistances are taken into consideration, which basically means that any stray fireball/flaming arrow etc that hits you basically saps your mana. Most of it. If you get caught in a meteor or firewall for a couple seconds, your mana is gone. All of it, from my experience. This is with 1 ES and 1 telekinesis (and NO CTA, which might be the main problem - she has roughly 1000-1100 life and mana).

The SS with max block stops most arrows from hitting you, and when they do the only take away from your life after being reduced by your resistances, leaving your mana for casting spells. Plus the dmg reduction is sweet.

I'm thinking about using ES with my next sorc, but only with max telekinesis to reduce the obscene mana drain from elemental damage taken.

[tooth]

If i'm not mistaken blocking doesnt block magical attacks right?

[DarkY]

nice thread, found out same that Tal set is better (dmg on cold) then with shako/hoto
Got blizz sorc, 5.XXX dmg. Friend does 4XXX dmg.
The +1 on the orb and the +dmg do the trick

[melianor]

If i'm not mistaken blocking doesnt block magical attacks right?
Some magic attacks can be blocked. Among them are the succubus blood ball and the poison bolt from Andariel and a few others.
Blocking is mainly against ranged attackers and if you get unlucky, melee attackers.

[Zroc]

nice finds ;)

[savvyguy]

I think the points would be much better used in Vit and Energy, to make the use of ES even more efficient. 170 points in DEX is A LOT, and from my experience (lvl 94 sorc) you need a lot of health and mana, and you definetly need ES (if you want to stay alive). Just cause you block 75% of the time, doesn't mean they can't hit you 10 times out of 10, although you'd be dead on the 3rd or 4th hit :P

Sorry to bump this, but i was looking though it since i got my full tals set.

Chance to get hit 10/10 times with 75% chance to block:

(1/4)*(1/4)*...*(1/4) = (1/4)^10 = 0.00000095 = not bloody likely.

[melianor]

Sorry to bump this, but i was looking though it since i got my full tals set.

Chance to get hit 10/10 times with 75% chance to block:

(1/4)*(1/4)*...*(1/4) = (1/4)^10 = 0.00000095 = not bloody likely.

Nice added formula. To revive this a bit. Did we discuss what to socket into Tal's set here, besides MF runes and gems?

I just got hold of a -5/+x fire fact and -5/x lightning facet and dropped those into mask and orb. With this i now get -20% fire and lightning resistance on monsters. I would even go as far and get another -5 lightning facet.

apart from mf socketing i think facet are the best!

[savvyguy]

Nice added formula. To revive this a bit. Did we discuss what to socket into Tal's set here, besides MF runes and gems?

I just got hold of a -5/+x fire fact and -5/x lightning facet and dropped those into mask and orb. With this i now get -20% fire and lightning resistance on monsters. I would even go as far and get another -5 lightning facet.

apart from mf socketing i think facet are the best!

What build are you using that you need - light res??? A bit OT, but the talk of facets reminded me of a drunken night where i tried to get 2 sockets on a rare eth wire fleece, the dropped a poison facet in the 1 socket to help my mercs poison damage.... NOOBISH.

[melianor]

What build are you using that you need - light res??? A bit OT, but the talk of facets reminded me of a drunken night where i tried to get 2 sockets on a rare eth wire fleece, the dropped a poison facet in the 1 socket to help my mercs poison damage.... NOOBISH.
*lol* 8) Dont drink and play!

Archmage build. Meteor/CB/FO. Very nice. Soloed from Normal to Hell with a Defiance Merc. -20% Lightning res help alot to make 220 CB damage/bolt even better :)

[melianor]

Thought it to be interesting to post the full stats you get from Tal's Set. Not just the list from bnet, but all added together, so that one REALLY sees whats adding up here!

+6 Sorceress skills
-15% Fire resistance
-15% Lightning Resistance
+15% Cold damage
+1-2 Fire Mastery
+1-2 Lightning Mastery
+1-2 Cold Mastery
10% Life Stolen
10% Mana Stolen
+3-32 Lightning Damage

+50% Faster Cast Rate

+10 Energy
+20 Dexterity
+179 Mana
+317 Life (!)
+655 Defense

+95% Fire Resistance
+128% Lightning Resistance
+95% Cold Resistance
+55% Poison Resistance
Magic Damage reduced by 15
37% Damage taken goes to mana
Replenish Life +10
25% Faster Hit Recovery
+50 Defense vs. Missile

+163%-168% Magic Find

All this put together give you a much better view about how impressive Tal#s Set really is :D :teeth:

[McRhea]

I have a level 92 pure lightning sorc, and I have to say that Tals full set allows me to kill faster than a Shako/Occy/ViperMaji setup. It really does have great all around mods, and the -15% lightning res really help make the set shine.

[Fire-Syn]

Im totally with u,
I got : Tal full set with War trav, Magefist, 2 B-k rings, Troll nest.

And i got : Occy (Ist), Troll nest (P diamond), Skullder (P Top), Shako (P Top), The rising sun ammy, Goldwrap, War trav, Magefist and 2 B-k ring and 2 P Nagel (for mf).

I try each and...

Wow, the none Tal-Full set is so better than Tal full-set!!!

1st : More mf
2 : More fcr
3 : More + all skill
4 : More defense

But the only thing its better with Tal-Full set is there is more resistance

And the thing i hate the most of Tal rasha Full set is the ugly Mask!!!

[Darth Joe]

Thought it to be interesting to post the full stats you get from Tal's Set. Not just the list from bnet, but all added together, so that one REALLY sees whats adding up here!

+6 Sorceress skills
-15% Fire resistance
-15% Lightning Resistance
+15% Cold damage
+1-2 Fire Mastery
+1-2 Lightning Mastery
+1-2 Cold Mastery
10% Life Stolen
10% Mana Stolen
+3-32 Lightning Damage

+50% Faster Cast Rate

+10 Energy
+20 Dexterity
+179 Mana
+317 Life (!)
+655 Defense

+95% Fire Resistance
+128% Lightning Resistance
+95% Cold Resistance
+55% Poison Resistance
Magic Damage reduced by 15
37% Damage taken goes to mana
Replenish Life +10
25% Faster Hit Recovery
+50 Defense vs. Missile

+163%-168% Magic Find

All this put together give you a much better view about how impressive Tal#s Set really is :D :teeth:

My current setup is:

Maras
Shako
Occy
Arachnid Mesh
Enigma

This gives the possibility of:

+10 Skills
+1 to Teleport

+148 Life
+148 Mana
+27 Vitality
+27 Energy
+81 Strength

50% Faster Cast Rate
199% MF
49% Resist All
18% Damage Reduction
45% Faster Run/Walk
10% Slower Stamina Drain

+5 Mana/Kill
+14 Life/Kill
15% Damage to Mana
5% Maximum Mana
5% Maximum Life

140% Enhanced Defense
+775 Defense

Lvl 3 Venom Charges



The extra +4 to Skills is nice, especially since I use a Tri-Elemental Sorc. The downside is, I'm giving up a lot of resists, especially to lightning (ouch).

Cast Rate is even with both setups.

The minus resists and + to masteries of Tal's is nice, but doesn't the extra +4 to Skills make up for that when applied to masteries?

You get more life with Tal's, which is awesome. You get more Strength with my setup, which allows you to put more points into vitality or energy if you want to use a shield that requires a lot of Strength, like Storm Shield. So, all in all, I would say the + to attributes and stats is pretty even, depending on what you're looking for. Defense is nearly equal.

MF is pretty even with both setups.

Damage to mana is pretty equal, if you consider the extra +4 to skills, with a point in Energy Shield.

Tal's has no physical damage reduction...my setup has 18%. However, Tal's does have magical damage reduction. So, I would say that's pretty even as well.

Tal's has replenish life, defense vs. missiles, and FHR...my setup has faster run/walk, mana/kill, life/kill, and % to max mana & life. Truthfully, I would rather have the FHR, def. vs. missiles and replenish life...it's a lot more efficient and effective.

Overall, I would have to say that neither setup really has an advantage over the other when it comes down to gameplay. It all really boils down to personal preference, and style. Myself, I don't use Tal's because it seems to be the 1.10 Sorc fad on US West, and I've always been one to go against the grain, and stray from the norm and what is popular. I enjoy having my Sorc look original and unique (and you have this option depending on what armor you use for enigma).

[melianor]

The extra +4 to Skills is nice, especially since I use a Tri-Elemental Sorc. The downside is, I'm giving up a lot of resists, especially to lightning (ouch).


Aehm, just Tal's Set is +6 skills. But you will not only wear that. Add Lidless, add 2 Soj, Annihilus and you are equal with +10.

-15% Fire and lightning resistances + 2 Masteries is absolutly equal to +3 skills (!) in terms of damage. Add another fire and lightning facet and you are way over top in damage and get all the benefits form Tal's. PDR should not matter that much for a Sorc.

Your setup looks good though, but i'd still prefer Tal's over any of those setups :) +life +mana +resists maxed, what can a sorc want more *g*

-xx% resistances is always better than maxing your damage. combine both and damage gets real crazy. Like with adding skillers 8)

[Darth Joe]

Aehm, just Tal's Set is +6 skills. But you will not only wear that. Add Lidless, add 2 Soj, Annihilus and you are equal with +10.

If you add lidless, 2 SOJ's, and annihilus to my setup, that gives you a total of +14 to skills. ;)

Your setup looks good though, but i'd still prefer Tal's over any of those setups :) +life +mana +resists maxed, what can a sorc want more *g*

As stated in my above post, life and mana end up being pretty equal when considering the points you save in Strength. However, the one place where Tal's does outshine my setup is resists. This one thing could very well be the determining factor for many people, but you could always swap Enigma for CoH and gain an extra 65% to resists, and make up the difference with a few charms...keeping the +2 to skills, but sacrificing MF. ;)

[melianor]

If you add lidless, 2 SOJ's, and annihilus to my setup, that gives you a total of +14 to skills. ;)



As stated in my above post, life and mana end up being pretty equal when considering the points you save in Strength. However, the one place where Tal's does outshine my setup is resists. This one thing could very well be the determining factor for many people, but you could always swap Enigma for CoH and gain an extra 65% to resists, and make up the difference with a few charms...keeping the +2 to skills, but sacrificing MF. ;)

Oh yeah, sorry my bad about the +skills. Still effectivly you are only losing +1 skills since -15% fire/lightning res + +2 masteries from the orb equal +3 skills. Add another 2 facets and you are equal! :)

Otherwise just like you said. Pretty equal apart from resistances. But you should be covered if you manage to attain at least 75% Lightning resistance.

[fhpchris]

I hope you do not mind if I pick you apart...


Here's my gear:
-Ist'd Tal Orb
-Ptopazed Tal Mask and armor
-Tal's belt and ammy
-Now running a Um/Ist/Ist Headhunter's shield
-2 sojs
-38 chance guards, 48 war travs
-Anni, 40% gheeds, and 20 7% mf charms
-Weapon switch: dual-ist'd Baba and 3-isted Headhunters


You have:
FCR:50(37% 10 Frame BP :uhhuh: )
FBR:0(0% 9 frame BP)
FHR:25%(20% 11 Frame BP :uhhuh: )
%PDR:0(!!! :scratch: )

At least in Player vs Player the 63% FCR BP and 86% FHR BP are pretty standard, and your gear isnt even close.

Player vs Monster is not much different. You WILL get stunlocked and die, many more times to Black souls and Frenzytaurs(?), and I'm not even pointing out the extra fast extra strong conviction enchanted boss packs I have seen.

Just this morning I saw 3 single-tree Full Tals Sorcs (two cold, one fire) that were over level 85 die to a champion boss pack of black souls while entering the Worldstone chamber, and that isn’t even including the barbs and palla that died too.

Because My Sorc (only one with her body in an 8 player game) used NON-TALS gear, everyone in the party got their bodies back...

I even killed the *ALL* the cold immunes (8 player cold immunes mind you). Without static field.(Blizzard Sorc, cold tree only, level 91 UsEast Ladder).


Again, though, I choose energy shield over max block. I just like it better, even with just a single point in it and only one in telekinesis.

What all that means on my character screen is:
With Tal's, I have 1147 life, 873 mana

Just wow. I know of People on East that use 15/70s and max energy shield that have 5000 mana, and that is not a typo. There are legit duelers on Europe with over 2.5K that have max energy shield and max TK.

You have 873. Not only that but every point of damage takes 1.9375 mana, meaning you can absorb 451 damage with your mana

At level 11 ES, 61% is absorbed, meaning when you take 738+ damage you have lost all of your mana, assuming it was full to begin with. I'm not even going to go into what poison damage does to you.

--------

Last thing. You Baal with a Pally with max conviction. For every single calculation you have done for Baal, Baal's 50 resists will go to -100 with conviction, making the mods of Tals orb worthless...

--------
Almost forgot to post it, to further bash all HotO, Shako and Enigma/CoH users,

To further Bash all Tals set users, the +14 all skills that Darth Joe has will stack with Battle orders on a Call to Arms Flail, giving a significant boost in life/mana :thumbsup:, + Sorceress skills do not. We are talking +6 to +10 that he has that tals users do not. I'm not even going into the discussion we can have about how that lets him get max %PDR and max blocking using Stormshield while having more life, more mana, and better resists, and more FBR(5 frame of Shaeled SS) than you do. My level 93 old ladder sorc had over 1500 life and 1100 mana easily with a +3 Flail...

-------
You point out that Tals set has lots of resistances on it. Most good high level characters will just use charms to get what they lack, and I personally use a Stormshield... It really gets to be pretty even.

For the record I will be using snowclash and a Loed Shako to have 90 Lightning/90 Cold resist...

There is a big difference between 3/4 and 9/10 when you are taking damage.
-------
i tryed it and then tryed deaths fathom, its a lot better then doom

A -60 resist Doom gives +2 all skills, Holy freeze, and -60 enemy resists.
Have you seen a WW assassin Tele-WW into a holy freeze + Stormshield Sorceress? Compare that to what happens when that happens to you, your lack of blocking lets them hit you with venom easily, if they dont kill you with physical damage first.

A Stormshield alone will let you Live, and I’m not going to mention Chargers and other melee characters that can get near you.

Wait you don’t PvP

Luckily, there are monsters in the game that can surround you as fast as you see them, and they will all stun you until you are dead. Just look at almost any extra fast, extra strong, finat enchanted Boss pack you see in the chaos sanctuary or in Act 5 on the way to baal.

Many people on this forum say:

"I am not a melee character so I just tele away"

1) If you are stunlocked from having only 25%FHR you cant tele away.
2) When a baal game is all sorcies, and everyone just "teles away" they just scatter the monsters all over the level, making it near impossible to even stay alive, even for us Non-Tal set users.

-------

1) Griffons Eye blows away full tals set. Its not even close.


How true.

-------
Conclusion
Tals set isn’t crappy itself, it is crappy by people like you socketing it with perfect topazes instead of the shaels, facets, and etc that could make your Sorceress stronger and live longer.

It is crappy by people using Head hunters instead of whitsans(blocking) or lidless(FCR NEEDED for Breakpoint and the +skill).

You can easily get your resists else where, using whitsans Umed, and Uming your tals stuff(Just not the orb!) or just simply using charms like the good P vs Pers do.

You mention the damage of your fireball, but you ignore you have one of the slowest casting rates. GG. You do 15% more damage(to baal only) than the non tals Sorc that has 105% FCR. For every 8 fireballs you cast he casts 10. I wont mention teleporting speed, and how getting the FCR breakpoint keeps you from getting stunlocked while teleporting to baal.

I like how you ignore %PDR, depending on a record low 870~ mana energy shield, and a 1 point TK. I wont even mention mana burn monsters or poison, because if you take even 800 damage (Total!) all of your mana is gone. GG you get stunlocked because you cant teleport away or just get lucky and scatter all the monsters on the level. Total waste of the Pre-requisite skills too, and you are a dual-tree Sorc. Those worthless skill points really cripple you.

You could have Full tals, and still hit the Breakpoints, but you will sacrifice magic find of your Travs and your topazes, and your shield...

That is probably why you were called a nub. Imho anyway.

-Chris

[Icy]

Just curious but what would you consider to be ideal gear for your Blizzard sorceress?

Also, killing 8 player cold immunes must've taken some patience with only a Might mercenary (I assume) and no Static Field. Congrats! :thumbsup:

[spencerjrus]

tals set rocks, nuff said.

[fhpchris]

Just curious but what would you consider to be ideal gear for your Blizzard sorceress?

Also, killing 8 player cold immunes must've taken some patience with only a Might mercenary (I assume) and no Static Field. Congrats! :thumbsup:

He is actually Holy Freeze, But sometimes I use a Might Merc.

This Gear setup obeys Europe PvP rules, in that it does not have more than 15% cold damage total or 2 5/5 Cold Facets.

If you want the fastest casting BP, much of your gear is locked in.
Hoto 40
Arach 20
Viper Magi upped 30
Trang gloves or magefists 20
-------------------------------
110% FCR

If you use a +3 Blizzard Ormus' Robes, you need to use a 10% FCR ring with +stats and +mana instead of an SOJ.


I feel you need:
86% FHR for 7 frame BP
at least 27% FBR for 6 frame BP
105% FCR for 8 frame BP


If you want to only use 63% FCR that is an option that will give you much more virsitility in your gear.

Hoto
15% Nightwings, Loed
35% Vipermagi upped and Shaeled
30% Maras
2x Sojes
Eth 15/15/70 Treks
Arach
Trang Gloves for stacked cold resist
Stormshield, possible Shaeled to get the 5 Frame FBR BP.
4 12%FHR/ Cold Skillers
6 Cold skillers with +life
9 Mix and match Resist/Life/Mana SCs
1 20/20/10 anni
+6 Bo CTA/Lidless on switch

*Using Whitsans or an upped Visceraunt is an option.
*Death's Fathom is an option if you do not mind the 63% FCR BP.
(only 15% Death's Fathoms are allowed by the rules)
*Using a shako/Enigma/CoH is fine assuming you shael the Shako or use charms for FHR.
*Dont be afraid to 'Ber' the shako or armor to reach max % PDR, but never have less than 86% FHR.
* use 156 base strength with your anni, allowing a 20/-20 shield or a 4x ptopaz shield for Foh pallys or whenever you need it.
*Mfing get the FCR/FHR use 50% travs, 40% chanceguards, 100% 4xIST monarch, and Enigma for ~300MF. Much more MF than this looks good but is statisticly worthless for finding items and even worse for finding runes.
*Dont use MF gear for hell Baal runs assuming you want to get to level 99.
stronger gear keeps you alive, lets you do more runs faster(finding more items and runes) and Lets you defend yourself if hostiled. Which might not matter to you, but to some Hardcore people can be important.

Stats for using stormshield
Str: 136 base (20 anni)
Dex: Table Below - 20 of your anni

|---------------------------------| Character Level
|---- Shield (Chance to Block)-----| 75----80----85----90----95----99
|---------------------------------+------------------------------
|---------------------------------| Dexterity Needed
|Whinstan's Guard (87%)----------| 145---153---162---171---179---186
|Viscerataunt Heater (72%)-------| 172---182---193---203---213---222
|Stormshield (67%)----------------| 183---195---206---217---228---237
|Sanctuary Tower Shield (64%)----| 191---203---215---226---238---248
|Sanctuary Monarch (62%)--------| 197---209---221---233---245---255
|Sanctuary Troll Nest (60%)-------| 203---215---228---240---253---262
|Sanctuary Dragon Shield (58%)---| 209---222---235---248---261---272

Vit: Rest
Energy: none, ever.

Just mix and match the attributes you want or need, but make sure your character hits these BPs...

-Chris

[Herald of Doom]

I
At least in Player vs Player the 63% FCR BP and 86% FHR BP are pretty standard, and your gear isnt even close.
Luckily, there are monsters in the game that can surround you as fast as you see them, and they will all stun you until you are dead. Just look at almost any extra fast, extra strong, finat enchanted Boss pack you see in the chaos sanctuary or in Act 5 on the way to baal. If you are stunlocked from having only 25%FHR you cant tele away.


Conclusion
Tals set isn’t crappy itself, it is crappy by people like you socketing it with perfect topazes instead of the shaels, facets, and etc that could make your Sorceress stronger and live longer.



For PvM the 63 fcr is a must, but the 86fhr certainly isn't. 27 or in the most extreme cases 48, because those very fast and very hardhitting monsters are very rare and you would need to sack a lot for the fhr (either sockets or inventory spaces). The sorc I use has very, very low fhr and I haven't died with her as long as I remember. And I couldn't agree more with the conclusion, putting a topaz in armor+helm is a shame. My ladder1 sorc had a shael in the helm and 5/5 facet in the armor, which is way better then two lousy topazes.

HoD

[sharp-bow]

K, I'm going to go crazy if tal's full set is better than my setup but oh well... Right now i am using :

Nightwings, Hoto, Coh, mara's, 2 soj, treks boots, magefist and arachnids.

With 8 more fire charms and anni I do 12k fireball, 27k meteor, 540ish frozen orb. Fire skills are like 43 i think and cold is thirty something so i can't really see the full tal set being better than that. Got full resists, max block, 800+ life, cast pretty quick. Only thing is i got no mf basically lol.

Just really hoping that does better than a tal's setup, or basically any other setup for meteorb sorc.

[fhpchris]

K, I'm going to go crazy if tal's full set is better than my setup but oh well... Right now i am using :

Nightwings, Hoto, Coh, mara's, 2 soj, treks boots, magefist and arachnids.

With 8 more fire charms and anni I do 12k fireball, 27k meteor, 540ish frozen orb. Fire skills are like 43 i think and cold is thirty something so i can't really see the full tal set being better than that. Got full resists, max block, 800+ life, cast pretty quick. Only thing is i got no mf basically lol.

Just really hoping that does better than a tal's setup, or basically any other setup for meteorb sorc.

You only need a CTA!. You do very nice damage for a dual tree sorc too.

You can sacrifice some FHR if you are MFing something easy like pindle or meph, but if you are trying to level in the game to high 90s, not having FHR on a sorc can easily get you killed to Black souls. I dont even mean the champion ones or the boss packs .

Not having the FHR is bad when you are fighting lister(as a fire sorc even worse) and those black souls somehow find thier way into the chamber and kill 1/2 your party. It could get even worse if Lister is aura enchanted along with some of the black souls.

I'll take my 86% FHR. I do not plan to die while at level 92+. I guess that Herald of Doom is somewhat right in the fact that that much FHR isnt a MUST for PvM, but I say that during some of the worst parts of the game, it is something that will keep you alive. In my book that makes it a must.

-Chris

[savvyguy]

For PvM the 63 fcr is a must, but the 86fhr certainly isn't. 27 or in the most extreme cases 48, because those very fast and very hardhitting monsters are very rare and you would need to sack a lot for the fhr (either sockets or inventory spaces). The sorc I use has very, very low fhr and I haven't died with her as long as I remember. And I couldn't agree more with the conclusion, putting a topaz in armor+helm is a shame. My ladder1 sorc had a shael in the helm and 5/5 facet in the armor, which is way better then two lousy topazes.

HoD

If you use your tals sorc to mf, why wouldn't you put 2x ptopaz in the armor/helm and ist in the orb....? Tals set is the sorc MF setup, using it to pvp is just silly, so why not juice out your MF?

[fhpchris]

If you use your tals sorc to mf, why wouldn't you put 2x ptopaz in the armor/helm and ist in the orb....? Tals set is the sorc MF setup, using it to pvp is just silly, so why not juice out your MF?

Because the ~50 magic find you are adding does nothing when you already have over 500, and over 700 on switch..., however facets and shaels and etc can make a large difference in killing speed.

Killing speed always is better than magic find becuase magic find has diminishing returns and killing speed does not.

200MF 36 second hell meph > tals 700MF 70 second hell meph

Speed is much more important. Living through the run is too btw :P.

[ShoeLace]

Hmm, pretty hard to choose...

With tal's set, 1 soj, mage fists, 1 point in teleport, and base mana can you teleport without losing much mana? This is without CTA of course.

[Herald of Doom]

Hmm, pretty hard to choose...

With tal's set, 1 soj, mage fists, 1 point in teleport, and base mana can you teleport without losing much mana? This is without CTA of course.
As long as you don't just hold the tele button down and tele around like crazy, no not really. Even when it happens, and it does sometimes, one mana pot would be an excellent cure.

HoD

[ShoeLace]

Any comments on this? This would be for a meteorb sorc (softcore, no pvp).

"Mandatories" include: max LR, 300 MF (full time, without weap switching, or gear switching), 9 frame casting, good enough other resists to survive easily (ie. not dying instantly when a FE/CE guy explodes next to you).

Full Tal's
Storm Shield
Soj + Raven
Mage Fists
War Travs

2x Fire Facets (Orb, Tal's Helm)
Storm (free socket at the moment)
FHR, 25 fire resists, stats, dmg to mana jewel in Tal's Armor (heh)

This setup would result in at least *9 small charms worth of saved space in your inventory. Assuming you actually want good resists and FHR (at least 24) on your enigma setup.

One could say, with those 9 small charms, that's an extra 3 skill charms. So you only end up losing +1 fire skills. You gain 2 facets though, surely that would make the fire damage higher all the time. If you can teleport fine as is, and your orb does decent damage, I don't think losing out on those global skills will hurt your performance THAT much (as chris stated, yes with CTA, you would be losing out on extra buffs, but enigma+cta is also a trillion times more expensive than tal's set and the extra buffs can be lived without).

Losing out on 15% DR is also a pretty big deal, but I dunno. With max block, easily 1k life, and 35% DR, 9 frame casting, and the 48% FHR breakpoint -- 35% DR should be enough to get out of a nasty situation and maybe tank anything in a single player game long enough to kill it (assuming holy freeze merc too), no?

*=
On the enigma setup;
30% From Quests, 20% Oculus, 25% LR+50% CR Storm, 30% Perfect Maras

-20% FR, 30% CR, 5% LR, -20% PR

Could Um the storm I guess for 2/52/27/2 resists. That leaves 2 sockets. Would probably put rare jewels with 7% FHR + high single resists. Figure 25 resists in fire, and 25 in lightning.

That's 27/52/52/2 and you have no sockets.

vs

60/85/83/-5 with 1 open socket (storm)

With the enigma (top) setep. You're looking at 2 small charms for your cold/lightning resists and 5 small charms for fire. You also need at least 2x FHR charms. Plus if you're thinking FHR on your skill charms, you're giving up any +life you could get with tal's. Although this would raise your skills back to being quite a bit higher than tal's. If you want more than 24% FHR, you're going to have to some severe charm tweaking (unless you have access to many FHR/skill charms).

With the tal's setup, you already have 25% FHR, 32% FHR with a jewel in the tal's armor. That means you need 16% FHR for the 48% break point. 2x large charms of balance and you have it. Or you could just deal with 25% and slap another skill charm in.

With the tal's setup you have 7 small charms with 7 skill charms (or 6 with the 2x large charms). Putting 7 smfcs would get you to 297-307 MF (figure 40-50 travs).

For the Enigma setup to work like that, you will need:
Enigma
CTA (if you want to see the life bonuses over tal's)
perfect maras
quite a few hard to get charms
2x 7% FHR jewels each with 1 high resist

That's a lot of hard to get stuff. At least it is on the USEast ladder.

Facets aren't easy to get, but the big difference is, your build will work fine without them (you'll have sufficient life/mana, max resists, etc. right from the start). Trying to lvl/mf with 0 or negative resists is asking for trouble.

Still have 1 socket on the tal setup too. I dunno if 80% lightning resist would make a difference compared to 75% with no absorb. Maybe another fire facet, cold facet, or a -req rare jewel with good poison resists, dex, dmg to mana.

I apologize if any of these suggestions were already stated. I'm not trying to be the inventor of the best build ever. Just looking for a few opinions before I decide to make this tal set sorc.

[Frisco]

Just this morning I saw 3 single-tree Full Tals Sorcs (two cold, one fire) that were over level 85 die to a champion boss pack of black souls while entering the Worldstone chamber, and that isn’t even including the barbs and palla that died too.

Because My Sorc (only one with her body in an 8 player game) used NON-TALS gear, everyone in the party got their bodies back...

I just wanted to note that you're making the unwarranted assumption that those players would have made more survivable sorcs if they had somehow been forcibly prevented from using Tals.


A couple of people have mentioned the "48 FHR" breakpoint, the info from http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=137779 matches 48 with FBR instead. Who is correct?

[ShoeLace]

I just relayed what was posted on page 5, assuming it was correct.

quote:
"but the 86fhr certainly isn't. 27 or in the most extreme cases 48"

I guess it was just a typo because the 27 number matches FBR.

Going by that table, 42 or 60 seems to be a good number to aim for.

Also on my post, I realized I didn't count resists on annih. I should stop posting large ramblings without sleep.

[fhpchris]

I just wanted to note that you're making the unwarranted assumption that those players would have made more survivable sorcs if they had somehow been forcibly prevented from using Tals.

Tals is not that bad of a set in and of itself. I agree with you in that it can be good for how cheap it is. But Shoelace sat down and did the math for what charms and socketees his setup needs. He will have a sorc that is good because of that.

All you people using 20 7% MFSC and no other charms, and socketing with perfect topazes fall into the "noob" category.

He is also using a good shield(The ones in my blocking table) and not something worthless like headhunters.


A couple of people have mentioned the "48 FHR" breakpoint, the info from http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=137779 matches 48 with FBR instead. Who is correct?

Sorceress
FHR Frames
0% 15
5% 14
9% 13
14% 12
20% 11
30% 10
42% 9
60% 8
86% 7
142% 6
280% 5
1480% 4
--------
Sorceress
FCR Frames
0% 13
9% 12
20% 11
37% 10
63% 9
105% 8
200% 7
--------
Sorceress
FBR Frames
0% 9
7% 8
15% 7
27% 6
48% 5
86% 4
200% 3
4680% 2
---------

I'm Correct! :D
On the CTA subject! Because you have to lose tals orb when you switch, you lose all skill bonuses that the set would have even provided, assuming it provides + all skills(and I dont remember it doing that). You also loose any mana and life bonuses that the whole set provides.

[ShoeLace]

Hmm good point about not being able to use the orb on switch.

On average a non-tal set mf sorc will have +8 skills (without oculus/hoto/whatever), vs +3 on the tal setup (amulet+soj).

Difference between level 14 bo (figuring +3 bo, +1 from BC, and a +1 shield) and 9 level bo is 15% more life/mana. On top of that the tal set sorc loses roughly 200 life, and 87 mana.

Quite the difference indeed.

[fhpchris]

Hmm good point about not being able to use the orb on switch.

On average a non-tal set mf sorc will have +8 skills (without oculus/hoto/whatever), vs +3 on the tal setup (amulet+soj).

Difference between level 14 bo (figuring +3 bo, +1 from BC, and a +1 shield) and 9 level bo is 15% more life/mana. On top of that the tal set sorc loses roughly 200 life, and 87 mana.

Quite the difference indeed.

Tals ammy is + sorceress skills, which does not work with battle orders...

:P

non-tals:
2 =Maras
2 =shako
1= Viper magi
1=Arach
2=Sojes
1=Anni
1=shield
1=BC
1=CTA
----------
+12 skills, w/o enigma/Valor/CoH

Tals:
2=sojes
1=BC
1=Shield
1=CTA
-------
+5 all skills, assuming 2x sojes :(

With a +3 Bo CTA that is:

Level 15 Bo:77% increase (175 sec long)
Level 8 Bo:56% increase(105 sec long)

21% is a big difference(for you and your merc) when it goes down to the final numbers. I didnt even add Enigma and its 5% maximum life! :P

EDIT: Just noticed I forgot to add in an anni for Tals set, I'm not bothering to change the math because of how big the difference is. and If a tals user uses frostburns for mana, they need 2x 10 FCR rings to get to the next casting BP (63%) and that just makes these calcs look worse for them.

[Harby]

In simple words, is tals set (with 7-8 fireskillers + anni) the ultimate pvm meteorb gear ?

[melianor]

In simple words, is tals set (with 7-8 fireskillers + anni) the ultimate pvm meteorb gear ?

If you are soloing i would answer that with YES immediatly. I palyed a Meteorb with Full Tal's set ont eh last ladder, with 2xSoj, 2xFireskillers, 2xColdskillers, 1xAnni and a couple of near perfect Life scs.

a unique setup would certainly use what i just noted about and maybe have some more +skills, but the -15% fire/lightning res +15% cold damage and the +2 on fire/lightning/cold mastery make up for +3 skill added otherwise. Just do the math and you will see that.

Also apart from that Tal's set makes it easy to max resistances, mantain huge mana and life pool, additionally alot of defense (very good combination with shiver armor just 1pt) life replenish, fhr,...............

When you play with a group alot you will possibly not need all those nice mods and can concentrate to get more +skills for maxing damage even more since you will have the group to be a shield for you.

With full Tal's set you can survive Black Souls too, though undoubtly it cannot beat the power of Thudnergods Vigor.

For Soloing and also for grouped playing i would personally vouch for full Tal's set as the ideal gear of a Sorceress, except for the look of it on the sorc maybe ;)

Damage calculation that shows why any source of -xx% resitances is somethign that you should add before you decide to add +xx% damage. Both is ofcourse better.

full damage = base damage *(1+synergy%) *(1+(mastery%+elemental damage sources%) *(1-(monsterres%-negative elemental resistance sources%))

[KaUgA]

My 2 cents.
I don't know if I count in this thread because I've never had a full Tal's set, only because I've never found a need for it.

My Sorc wears a rather random set-up, but it works absolute wonders for her.
Lvl 88 Pure Fire Sorc
Shako w/ PTopaz
34% MF Ammy
Rhyme Shield or Lidless
Skullders w/ PTopaz
Occy w/ Ist or Gull
2x Unique MF Rings ( ... Pathetic I can't remember the name) at 28% MF each
Perf Travs
GoldWrap

I have around 420% MF if my memory is correct. I do about 16k Meteor DMG (Kills Hell Meph under 50 seconds) and around 8k Fireball DMG (I don't use this on Meph). Thats not even counting inventory, simply because I can't remember at all.

It could be just me, but I have never wanted or needed Tal's Set for my sorc. Sure it would have helped earlier in the lvls, but I still don't see any reason to *crave* it. I think the glowing is awesome though. Why would you perfer Tals set to a mis-match of equiptment?

US EAST *kauuga

[melianor]

I would not say that tal's set is the overpower uber gear and you should not wear anything else. A unique setup can be equally satisfying. Beforethe 1stladder season started i never had a look or craving for full Tal's and went with a similiar setup of uniques as you did and i did just well by it too :)

Since i discovered that Tal's set will give -xx% resistances and also realized the impact on damage from such sources i would not let go of Tal's anymore, when building either an Archmage or a Dual-tree build. If you add some facets you can increase that damage even more!

Apart from that who would like to dismiss these mods?
This might look like a huge list trying to impress but the most important things are

-xx% resistance
over +300 life!!!
huge amount of extra mana (equal to shako)
Magic damage reduction!
Faster hit recovery!
the added masteries and negative reistances sources make up for extra +3 all skills

Life/Mana Leech is about the only useless mod on the set and the added lightning damage...

+6 Sorceress skills
-15% Fire resistance
-15% Lightning Resistance
+15% Cold damage
+1-2 Fire Mastery
+1-2 Lightning Mastery
+1-2 Cold Mastery
10% Life Stolen
10% Mana Stolen
+3-32 Lightning Damage

+50% Faster Cast Rate

+10 Energy
+20 Dexterity
+179 Mana
+317 Life (!)
+655 Defense

+95% Fire Resistance
+128% Lightning Resistance
+95% Cold Resistance
+55% Poison Resistance
Magic Damage reduced by 15
37% Damage taken goes to mana
Replenish Life +10
25% Faster Hit Recovery
+50 Defense vs. Missile

+163%-168% Magic Find

Since i have used the set i dont think i would ever return to a different setup, except when building a single tree sorc where i search for optimized gear that focuses on maxing the damage output for a single tree.

[jton]

I personally can't use Tals, even in Season 1 when I started after a break I always craved for something different. Well I ended up using Hoto,Perfect Sanctuary ,Enigma,Shako(um'ed),Arachnids,Magefists, Crafted Ammy with +2 15fcr 20 all res, Soj, a Fcr Ring with 32/19/11/11 Res., and 50% War Travs. I had no problem with res. and imo i did ample damage and could solo hell baal by myself. My merc was wearing Eth Archon Stone, Coa w/ ed/ias jewels that I took off my zealer, and Eth Doom Cryptic Axe, it was obviously a might merc. Oh and I was A meteororb. On switch was 6 isted crystal sword and 4 isted monarch for mfin. This season I would hope to repeat something like this, but right now im using 5% bk,natures peace,arachnids,skullders,shako,tals ammy, sanctuary,magefists, waterwalks, and hoto. Swith is lidless + wizzy. I can def. tell a damage difference in both of my setups but I can still solo diablo, i tried baal and it took numerous stops in town and overall the speed wasnt worth mfing. On my last season setup I had access to a 6bo cta which was kept in my stash along with a 30% maras,lidless, and soj for when i dueled. Without the cta i still didnt die alot but I could tell a difference in the amount of full rejuv's i was eating doing baals.

I'm not trying to say full tals is bad or anything because obviously the points broughten up by melianor are hard to argue with, BUT if you can afford skill gcs and basically any setup that you would like I would def. say try the enigma setup.

[Sint Nikolaas]

I got a PvP question.

I'm playing single player, and making a pure fire sorc for dueling, I have pulled together quite some gear but now that I read this entire thread (yeah 6 pages :D ) I got a little distracted on what would be better for full PvP use.

Setup #1
Eschecuta's (beats Oculus or HotO imo)
Skin
Harle
Mara's
2* Soj
Arachnids
Waterwalks
Magefist or Bloodfist (FHR)
either lidless or storm (going with max block if storm)

Setup #2
Tal's set
2* Soj
Waterwalks
Magefist or Bloodfist
either lidless or storm (going with max block if storm)

I'm not going to take any fire facets or skillers into this, just my pure gear.
Well, the stats are mentioned above for both setups, but I want to look at survivabillity.

The tal's set might be doing better damage but it's lacking speed, fhr, fbr,you name it.

Skills:
Fbolt -20
Fball -20
Meteor -20
FM -20
reqs -3
Teleport / telekinesis / static -1
warmth -1
Rest of my points (about 10) go in warmth probably so I won't run out of mana if I have to chase a runner.

I won't be using a cold armor nor ES. both seem quite a waste to me since I'm not planning to be around a melee char long enough for him to enjoy my cold armor.. and ES... + pvp... :cheesy:

Now I'll get to the point :D I was leaning towards my unique setup before reading all this, going with lidless and just dump all my stats into vit. Now that I've read this I found myself considering Tal's set because of the damage and the storm because.. well.. because it's storm, the magefist or bloodfist also troubles me. Oh, and about the HotO vs Eche's.. the +to fire dmg will be better then the +1 skill right?

Can anyone slap me out of this blur? (It's also 2 AM...)

Remember, PvP purposes only. Thanks in advance.

:drink: Sint

Ps, leaving out the skillers and facets.. forgot to mention that we can't use oskills either in SP dueling, so no CtA for me.

EDIT: I just remembered, using 2 sojs will leave me with no CBF which is normally a pain in duels. I assume I'll be using one raven unstead of a soj right?

[zworox]

Thought it to be interesting to post the full stats you get from Tal's Set. Not just the list from bnet, but all added together, so that one REALLY sees whats adding up here!

+6 Sorceress skills
-15% Fire resistance
-15% Lightning Resistance
+15% Cold damage
+1-2 Fire Mastery
+1-2 Lightning Mastery
+1-2 Cold Mastery
10% Life Stolen
10% Mana Stolen
+3-32 Lightning Damage

+50% Faster Cast Rate

+10 Energy
+20 Dexterity
+179 Mana
+317 Life (!)
+655 Defense

+95% Fire Resistance
+128% Lightning Resistance
+95% Cold Resistance
+55% Poison Resistance
Magic Damage reduced by 15
37% Damage taken goes to mana
Replenish Life +10
25% Faster Hit Recovery
+50 Defense vs. Missile

+163%-168% Magic Find

All this put together give you a much better view about how impressive Tal#s Set really is :D :teeth:

Can't wait to put on my Tal Armor :yep:

But is 50% FCR enough?

[melianor]

@Sint Nikolaas

Tal's Set is NOT a good PvP choice... The -resistances are too weak for pvp and you'd rather add facets and go with a unique setup since as you said you are missing probably important PvP mods. I have not heard about Sorcs using Tal's set in PvP at all sofar.

+20% damage will be better than +1 skills, since +1 skill only means +7% from firemastery and the raise of +1skill only improves the damage of the spell itself and not the synergies.

@zworox, 50% FCR will indeed not be enough. Add Magefist or Lidless to that and you are set with above 63% FCR.

[zworox]

@Sint Nikolaas

Tal's Set is NOT a good PvP choice... The -resistances are too weak for pvp and you'd rather add facets and go with a unique setup since as you said you are missing probably important PvP mods. I have not heard about Sorcs using Tal's set in PvP at all sofar.

+20% damage will be better than +1 skills, since +1 skill only means +7% from firemastery and the raise of +1skill only improves the damage of the spell itself and not the synergies.

@zworox, 50% FCR will indeed not be enough. Add Magefist or Lidless to that and you are set with above 63% FCR.

I have magefist also at the moment, but i'll use this sorc for almost pure mf.
Full Tal, WT, Magefist 2xSOJ.

Have Wizzy, but not high enough to use it yet.

[Sint Nikolaas]

@Sint Nikolaas

Tal's Set is NOT a good PvP choice... The -resistances are too weak for pvp and you'd rather add facets and go with a unique setup since as you said you are missing probably important PvP mods. I have not heard about Sorcs using Tal's set in PvP at all sofar.

+20% damage will be better than +1 skills, since +1 skill only means +7% from firemastery and the raise of +1skill only improves the damage of the spell itself and not the synergies.

Yeah I thought so too.
I'll be using uniques then with esche's.
I'm lacking FHR though, I could use Bloodfist but then I'm missing out on 20%fcr which means I will have to use lidless (so no storm) or I could try to find fhr charms (+1 fire/12 fhr = $ ).

So how about the:
Lidless vs Storm
Magefist vs Bloodfist
Raven vs Soj
:D
Cheers
:drink: Sint

[melianor]

Yeah I thought so too.
I'll be using uniques then with esche's.
I'm lacking FHR though, I could use Bloodfist but then I'm missing out on 20%fcr which means I will have to use lidless (so no storm) or I could try to find fhr charms (+1 fire/12 fhr = $ ).

So how about the:
Lidless vs Storm
Magefist vs Bloodfist
Raven vs Soj
:D
Cheers
:drink: Sint

I am really NO PvP pro at all.
I think Bloodfist would be more reasonable than Magefist.
Lidless or storm is pretty hard to tell. Possibly to achieve your FCR breakpoint Lidless with max Vitality would be better then.

1xRaven, 1xSoj i would go, or maybe there are better rings than Soj, like Dwarfstart for Fire absorb, or Wisp Projector.

[Yochefguy]

I have been reading all these pages and I still have a question. Let's say I make a Meteorb sorc with full tals set, SS, War Travs, 2 sojs, and I use it solely for MF runs. I socket the tals helm and armor with Ptopaz. I socket the Orb with Ist. What do I put in the SS Hel, Ist, or UM? Would I need the UM for Resists? What would Resists be without it? Would I need Ist for mf? What would MF be without it? And Finally how many Str points do I save by using Hel and is that worth it? Any Input would be appreciated. :scratch:

[UdneekgniM]

I'm partial to this set up for MFing purposes.

These items are on a Meteorb Sorc w/ 498 total MF:

Weapon 1: Oculus (when I'm filthy rich I'll Ist it)
Shield 1: Rhyme Shield

Weapon 2: Wizardspike
Shield 2: P Diamonded Stormshield

Helm: P Topazed Shako
Amulet: Tal's Ammy
Armor: P Topazed Tal's Armor
Gloves: 39 MF Chance Guards
Belt: 15 MF Tal's Belt
Boots: 36 MF War Travs (used to have 50 MF War Travs, but traded it for a rune)
Rings: 2 FCR Rings

Charms: 40 MF Gheeds, 12/11/10 Anni, 13 Res GC, 42 MF in SCs, No Skillers

Merc - Act 2 Holy Freeze

Helm: Tal's Helm (will eventually change to Vamp Gaze)
Armor: Shaftstop
Weapon: Amned Reaper's Toll

Vital Stats with Weapon/Shield 1

Maxed Block
0 DR

75 FR
69 CR
72 LR
8 PR

717 Life
569 Mana

Vital Stats with Weapon/Shield 2

Maxed Block
45 DR

75 FR
75 CR
75 LR
58 PR

677 Life
762 Mana

Both setups reach the 8 Frame FCR breakpoint.

Some people advocate placing points into Vitality rather than opt to max block. To me the returns from Vitality aren't that great, and I'd rather have max block. She also doesn't use CTA when she does her runs which has never really been a problem.

I use Weapon/Shield 2 when I'm teleing in Durance 2 towards Meph. I use Weapon/Shield 1 when I'm running Eldritch, Pindle, and after static fielding Meph with Weapon/Shield 2.

She can usually take down Meph in around 15 seconds because the Merc does a good job of tanking. I'd estimate that static field takes about 5 seconds to halve Meph's life, and Frozen Orb and Fireball kill in about 10 seconds (Frozen Orb does a large amount of damage against Hell Meph at the right distance).

The only place she can't run is doing a solo Baal run and Chaos Sanctuary might be slow.

Don't know how the hell the original poster managed to do Baal runs at a reasonable pace. From his calculations, Tal's Set is supposed to do greater damage than a setup with uniques, but the difference was not that dramatic. When my sorc does Baal runs, if the merc dies, then she is screwed. If the merc doesn't die, then it still takes a while.

It also seems some people stated the life of their sorc with BO bonuses from CTA.

[Stiertje]

<snip>

All you people using 20 7% MFSC and no other charms, and socketing with perfect topazes fall into the "noob" category.

<snip>


It's not a noob, it's a n00b ..... :)

A n00b is a person who does stupid things, and continues to do stupid things despite other people elaborating his stupidness. IMO maxxing MF% is not that stupid because every % actually helps. OK, it won't help that much, but MF is a matter of chance anyway.

But something you have to consider is this; The people you are accusing of n00bishness generally don't have access to all the niceties you require in a "non-n00b" setup. They are likely to have traded their Hellforge runes for the Tal's set anyway. You can't just call people n00bs just because they can't afford the "slightly" better setup.

So please, stop calling people n00bs just because they have a life.

[TheDemonWithin]

UdneekgniM: While that setup has some merit, Tal's Set works so much better it isn't even funny. For the Meteorb Build, Tal's Set gives such godly things, if you CAN get Tal's Set, you should use it.

And of course, there is no chance of any sorceress solo-ing Hell Baal and his Minions without a good merc ^.^.

[UserMathias]

The only place she can't run is doing a solo Baal run and Chaos Sanctuary might be slow.

Don't know how the hell the original poster managed to do Baal runs at a reasonable pace. From his calculations, Tal's Set is supposed to do greater damage than a setup with uniques, but the difference was not that dramatic. When my sorc does Baal runs, if the merc dies, then she is screwed. If the merc doesn't die, then it still takes a while.

It also seems some people stated the life of their sorc with BO bonuses from CTA.

Skillers help.


I'm lacking FHR though, I could use Bloodfist but then I'm missing out on 20%fcr which means I will have to use lidless (so no storm) or I could try to find fhr charms (+1 fire/12 fhr = $ ).

Doesn't sound good to me. You will need fcr very much. Why not just socket a shael in one of your items?

Another ring worth considering is the bk ring. Though I'd agree that soj/raven should be quite comftorable.


Oh, and keep the storm. My personal opinion is that it's better to have dr and block, and in general good defensive properties over having extra damage.

Magefist -> +1 fire, 20 fcr, mana regenerate
Storm -> Dr, block, resists.
Socket a shael for fhr

vs.

Bloodfist -> Fhr, life
Lidless -> 20 fcr, +1 skills, mana reg.
I couldn't tell you what sockets, because the setup sounds just plain bad.

[melianor]

You need at least 63% FCR, there is NO way around that!
This can be achieved in various ways!

Oculus: 30%
skin of Vipermagi: 30%
Lidless wall: 20%
Splendor runeword: 10%
Magefist: 20%
FCR rings rare/magic: 10%
Arachnid Mesh: 20%
Ormus' robe: 20%
FCR amu rare/magic: 10%/20%
FCR Circlet rare/magic: 20%

These are just a few examples. also Complete Tal's set will grant 50%, with Magefist that makes 70%.

[fhpchris]

It's not a noob, it's a n00b ..... :)

A n00b is a person who does stupid things, and continues to do stupid things despite other people elaborating his stupidness. IMO maxxing MF% is not that stupid because every % actually helps. OK, it won't help that much, but MF is a matter of chance anyway.

But something you have to consider is this; The people you are accusing of n00bishness generally don't have access to all the niceties you require in a "non-n00b" setup. They are likely to have traded their Hellforge runes for the Tal's set anyway. You can't just call people n00bs just because they can't afford the "slightly" better setup.

So please, stop calling people n00bs just because they have a life.

What a joke, Let the flame begin eh?

maxxing MF% is not that stupid because every % actually helps.

The diminishing returns make much more than 200-300% really worthless, because after that point the returns you get from magic find are piddly, meanlingless numbers compared to hitting the FCR/FHR/FBR breakpoints, and +life/mana stuff, I wont even bother to compare what socketing a perfect Topaz will do for you compared to the other cheap stuff you can do.

Again I listed why tals set is crappy. If you cant read, then ask someone to spoon feed you, if you dont want to get spoonfed, then just ignore this thread in its entirety.

The people you are accusing of n00bishness generally don't have access to all the niceties you require in a "non-n00b" setup.

My personal level 93 ladder sorc is not even using sojes, so dont even talk to me about I cant afford this or that.

Without a CTA she has 792 life and 545 mana with wartravs and chaceguards on, over 100% stacked cold resist in dueling gear, in hell, 105% FCR BP, 27% FHR on gear alone, more in charms, 75% blocking with Stormshield , etc

The HARDEST part of the gear to get is really a low maras/arach belt/sojes.

Now, I have a fathom, but using an occy/hoto/esculas is fine if that is all you have, and they have more FCR, making it much easier to hit the breakpoints.

Cant afford a CTA? You have friends right?

Have a friend to play a barb for the battle orders untill you can trade for a CTA, or have a friend that has a CTA with you. That isn't hard at all.

If YOU traded your hellforges away for Tals crap, that is YOUR fault.

My hellforges to date on ladder in HELL are:

LEM
IO
IO


So do not tell me the gear is difficult to get. It isnt.
------------------------------------
For those that were sleeping:

My setup has:

More resists
45% PDR
More FCR (up to 105% tals has 50%)
With both setups using a CTA
More life
More mana
More FHR
Better FBR
Don't forget better damage
More Strength/Dexterity/Vitality/Energy.

I think that my setup is better IN EVERY WAY!, because it may have less magic find, but it can do runs of hell meph or whatever monster FASTER than you can, and at 300% MF even doing the runs 25% faster will find you more stuff than even the 1000% MF the best tals magic finding sorcies have, why?

Because runes dont benefit from magic-find. I have found a Ladder Jah rune, so I am proof that 200-300% MF is better.

I did not even mention that my sorc will just plain live longer during the worst areas of the game, using gear that is not that much more expensive, depending on what you use. My setup has the power of the ability to change a piece here to tweak what you will need, and that is a very powerful thing.

63% FCR is NEEDED, 105% Preferred
42% FHR is NEEDED, 86% Prefered
27% FBR is NEEDED if you block, 48% is preferred.

So get rid of your noob attitude, look at your gear, and see what you need and meet these chriteria.

-Chris

[fhpchris]

Dupicate post due to slow forums.

[melianor]

I realize that your gear is very nicely optimized and i would also agree that 63% FCR is absolutly needed.

IN concern of FHR and FBR, well when going max block FHR and FBR can help ofc and i would consider them recommended but not say, without it you CANT make it and still play well and mantain high killing power.

I have never had a high amoutn of FHR on any build but instead would use Shiver Armor, which chills on attack and not on hit. So there was a fraction more to escape melee attacks. I'd rather substitute my FHR for other useful mods.

FBR is inherent on the Shield i use (upg. Visceratuant) so thats covered.


About MF: I totally agree here. Anything btw 200-350 is absolutly perfect and you will actually never need any more than that.
I have personally had MF between 200-800 and made a few thousand runs on the first ladder, where i noticed that in the end, no matter howmuch MF you have it all comes down to luck.

fhpchris, i would please wish for a different attitude in expressing your opinion, thx.

[fhpchris]

I realize that your gear is very nicely optimized and i would also agree that 63% FCR is absolutly needed.

IN concern of FHR and FBR, well when going max block FHR and FBR can help ofc and i would consider them recommended but not say, without it you CANT make it and still play well and mantain high killing power.

I have never had a high amoutn of FHR on any build but instead would use Shiver Armor, which chills on attack and not on hit. So there was a fraction more to escape melee attacks. I'd rather substitute my FHR for other useful mods.

FBR is inherent on the Shield i use (upg. Visceratuant) so thats covered.


About MF: I totally agree here. Anything btw 200-350 is absolutly perfect and you will actually never need any more than that.
I have personally had MF between 200-800 and made a few thousand runs on the first ladder, where i noticed that in the end, no matter howmuch MF you have it all comes down to luck.

fhpchris, i would please wish for a different attitude in expressing your opinion, thx.

have never had a high amoutn of FHR on any build but instead would use Shiver Armor, which chills on attack and not on hit.

The worst melee monsters in baalruns have the "cannot be frozen mod", meaning that shiver armor will do nothing but some crappy damage to them.

IN concern of FHR and FBR, well when going max block FHR and FBR can help ofc and i would consider them recommended but not say, without it you CANT make it and still play well and mantain high killing power.

Yes, you can maintain a "high killing power" and not have these, BUT
when you tele into the worldstone chamber and dolls and black souls are there, not having FHR will get you dead. FHR is one of the sorceress' worst problems, and getting it is sooo easy. Just shael your helm and armor, and use Treks, if you can only afford +10 str/+10 vit ones, no problem...

Whitsans and viceraunt are good shields as long as you realize that you are giving up %PDR for putting less stat points into strength and dex, and having them in vitality instead.

And on the Attitude subject, I only use the word noob because it was in the original post on page #1, and people can make the connection about what is wrong with what they are doing.

I have at least 3 pages of long posts in this thread, and I "dont think it is funny".

I also think that anyone who has said that my setup is more expensive has not thought about what in all they are using. Because my setup is modular, subbing out one piece of gear for another is pretty easy, and will let you use gear that is even magical, and most of the socketing you will have is either perfect rubys or shael runes, both are really easy to get...

My setup is all about the numbers, and nothing about the gear. I am even using rare FCR rings, and an Um'ed Upped Viper Magi, trang gloves, and crappy stat treks. Personally, Saying those items are hard to get, along with a shako and occy, an amulet (Tals if that is what you have), is misleading.

I played at the begining of the ladder reset, I know how it is.


I dont have an attitude, but If you want to break down my theory on gear, you better do some homework. I will gladly explain myself if you have any questions, but before you want to tell everyone my gear selection sucks, you better have a smart, professional looking appproach, and not some one paragraph blabbing about what the word noob means.

Again, I only used it because it was in the origional post, and you can see "WHY" he was called a noob for using tals while baaling. I want him to make the connection, and realize that his character met, like, none of the numbers I have been producing for the past 6-7 pages of post.

If you think I have an attitude, (Thank you for the mod for bringing it to my attention), it is simple typed words. I have answered anyone's questions kindly, and disspelled any myth about tals bieng better than doing your own gear.

I also said that tals was not bad in and of itself, if you see what its failings are, and try to fix them, like socketing with shael runes in the armor and helm, instead of topazes, is perfectly fine.

In fact you can even say that tals gear is perfectly fine, although not the best, if you are comparing it to mine without respect to using a CTA. Now What I dislike is that you could have made this connection on your own, without having me to spoon feed it to you. I dont like spoon feeding things because you dont learn your mistakes. My disposition has nothing to do with an attitude, and if you have any questions I wlll try to answer them.

-Chris

[fhpchris]

I have tals set now, and having to trade away alot of my gear for a 274% eth death cleaver with a zod in it, I can make a general guide for those who wish to have a tal's sorc that is better than what the general tal's sorc uses.

If you want, I will gladly do it. I do not mind trying to help out, even though I can seem a little aggresive at times. :) I can enjoy a good argument!

If you want me to try to make the best level 93 blizzard sorceress I can with tals I will give it a go, just reply and tell me to! :D

-Chris

[PsychoticEwok1]

some1 may have mentioned some of my points already, and this looks like a heated debate, so dont flame me just because i dont really want to do too much math right now.

First, does the -15% lightning resist help out static field? because in my estimation it does! with occy/shako etc it took me probably 3-5 more statics to get meph to 1/2 health than it does with tals orb.

SECOND OF ALL:

fhpchris, the comparison at the beginning of this thread was between two MAGIC FIND characters, one using tals ARMOR, AMMY, and BELT and using occy and shako (with your basic sorc boots/sheild etc) and one using full tals (and the same boots/sheild etc). somehow throughout 7 pages of posts, it migrated to a half-bliz sorc discussion, where there are MUCH better setups than tals (snowclash/arach+fathom+nightwing(thats the one, right?) etc) *puts on flameproof vest*

i understand that, yes topazes are a lame socket, but i use them because A i want mf and B i dont have facets lying around all the time.

Now, as far as equipment goes, im using :

level 85 meteorb (level 20 fireball, 20 meteor, 5 fire bolt, 20 FO, 11 or 12 CM, rest in FM. all skill quests done)

tals full (topaz armor and helm, empty orb, cuz its only 1/1/2 right now). Waterwalks, Ravenfrost, 10% fastercast ring with 18 dex, 13 str, and 7 poison resist, and 38% chancies (used to have magefists but i switched because the 20% fcr wasnt getting me over the BP and i like FO better than meteor/fireball) and lidless (diamond) and a 20/20/10 anni. various +life/mana SCs, no skillers.

for teleing i switch to a wizspike and it puts me over the 105 FCR. with wiz, i have MAX RESISTS EVEN WITH LOWER RESIST ON (except my poison is 73).

without wiz my resists are 77/75/75/50 (good enuff for me) and i have very few resist charms: only a few single element SCs. not sure of my FHR/FBR but i have no charms for it so its probably very low. PDR is also low (if any at all).

my mercenary, however, uses shaft, 20% gaze, and 3x AMN hone sundan. holy freeze, level 80.

with shiver armor, holy freeze, about 3k defense, 50% block with lidless (74 with viscerutant) and 105% FCR i dont find myself getting trapped. I have been running baal/meph/pindle for several weeks now and i have only gotten stunlocked or whatever because of LAG one night.

yes, i lack mana (only around 875 with wizspike, so i consume lots of mana pots when teleing like a madman at 105% fcr)

~4k fireball
~10k meteor (depends on gloves: magefists its 9.9-1.1k, others its a bit lower)
~475 damage FO

i seem to be able to kill baal without much trouble, and it doesnt take me forever either (1pgames). meph and pindle go down like nothing.

the only thing i fear are 5p-8p game souls and dolls... souls more than the dolls... which arent so bad. but for emergencies i pull out wizspike, tgods, and sometimes blackhorns (i maintain max resists and get lgihtning absorb in return for killing speed)

also, only certain monster configurations: mainly, when souls, dolls/ratmen (the blowgun guys), and frenzytaurs spawn all in one level. then i put on magefists and change the lidless to viscerutant and still have maxblock and 105% fcr (with spike), if my calculations are correct. i dont stay in one area long enough anyway.

there probably ARE setups better than tals, with equal MF (more is not needed). i dont dispute that. but why use all that great gear on a PvMer when you dont really NEED it as much for what you are doing?




as far as your challenge of the TAL BLIZ SORC, i challenge you to make a TAL METEORB SORC, the original topic of this discussion. :uhhuh:

after reading through a good chunk of this post, its solved nothing, except for that original post comparing tals full to the occy/shako/partial tals which solved my dilemma. thanks! :bonk: (gahhh.... 7 pages of equipment argument and math....)

[melianor]

I do 8p games in Hell and i do play the Telesorc with my Meteorb build or whichever build where i use Tal's set. With some good Teleport skills, Shiver armor and soem FHR, Souls are nto that big a problem. Also use Wizzy/Lidless on switch for Teleporting. Agreed, Thundergods would indeed be safer.

[fhpchris]

some1 may have mentioned some of my points already, and this looks like a heated debate, so dont flame me just because i dont really want to do too much math right now.

First, does the -15% lightning resist help out static field? because in my estimation it does! with occy/shako etc it took me probably 3-5 more statics to get meph to 1/2 health than it does with tals orb.

SECOND OF ALL:

fhpchris, the comparison at the beginning of this thread was between two MAGIC FIND characters, one using tals ARMOR, AMMY, and BELT and using occy and shako (with your basic sorc boots/sheild etc) and one using full tals (and the same boots/sheild etc). somehow throughout 7 pages of posts, it migrated to a half-bliz sorc discussion, where there are MUCH better setups than tals (snowclash/arach+fathom+nightwing(thats the one, right?) etc) *puts on flameproof vest*

i understand that, yes topazes are a lame socket, but i use them because A i want mf and B i dont have facets lying around all the time.

Now, as far as equipment goes, im using :

level 85 meteorb (level 20 fireball, 20 meteor, 5 fire bolt, 20 FO, 11 or 12 CM, rest in FM. all skill quests done)

tals full (topaz armor and helm, empty orb, cuz its only 1/1/2 right now). Waterwalks, Ravenfrost, 10% fastercast ring with 18 dex, 13 str, and 7 poison resist, and 38% chancies (used to have magefists but i switched because the 20% fcr wasnt getting me over the BP and i like FO better than meteor/fireball) and lidless (diamond) and a 20/20/10 anni. various +life/mana SCs, no skillers.

for teleing i switch to a wizspike and it puts me over the 105 FCR. with wiz, i have MAX RESISTS EVEN WITH LOWER RESIST ON (except my poison is 73).

without wiz my resists are 77/75/75/50 (good enuff for me) and i have very few resist charms: only a few single element SCs. not sure of my FHR/FBR but i have no charms for it so its probably very low. PDR is also low (if any at all).

my mercenary, however, uses shaft, 20% gaze, and 3x AMN hone sundan. holy freeze, level 80.

with shiver armor, holy freeze, about 3k defense, 50% block with lidless (74 with viscerutant) and 105% FCR i dont find myself getting trapped. I have been running baal/meph/pindle for several weeks now and i have only gotten stunlocked or whatever because of LAG one night.

yes, i lack mana (only around 875 with wizspike, so i consume lots of mana pots when teleing like a madman at 105% fcr)

~4k fireball
~10k meteor (depends on gloves: magefists its 9.9-1.1k, others its a bit lower)
~475 damage FO

i seem to be able to kill baal without much trouble, and it doesnt take me forever either (1pgames). meph and pindle go down like nothing.

the only thing i fear are 5p-8p game souls and dolls... souls more than the dolls... which arent so bad. but for emergencies i pull out wizspike, tgods, and sometimes blackhorns (i maintain max resists and get lgihtning absorb in return for killing speed)

also, only certain monster configurations: mainly, when souls, dolls/ratmen (the blowgun guys), and frenzytaurs spawn all in one level. then i put on magefists and change the lidless to viscerutant and still have maxblock and 105% fcr (with spike), if my calculations are correct. i dont stay in one area long enough anyway.

there probably ARE setups better than tals, with equal MF (more is not needed). i dont dispute that. but why use all that great gear on a PvMer when you dont really NEED it as much for what you are doing?




as far as your challenge of the TAL BLIZ SORC, i challenge you to make a TAL METEORB SORC, the original topic of this discussion. :uhhuh:

after reading through a good chunk of this post, its solved nothing, except for that original post comparing tals full to the occy/shako/partial tals which solved my dilemma. thanks! :bonk: (gahhh.... 7 pages of equipment argument and math....)

I only say blizz sorc because I have a level 93 blizz sorc on ladder without any gear, and I would never play meteor/orb because the killing power in 8 player games is just not there.

If I played orb, it would be more of a PvsP, 20TK, and 95% energy shield, and the rest in warmth. Immunes will never be a problem with a merc using a doom/reaper's toll. I have seen my doom might merc kill a cold immune/physical immune, although I cannot explain it, it did happen.

"i dont have facets lying around all the time."
"and a 20/20/10 anni"

Uh, no facets, but one of the nicest annis around? I dont think facets are that important, but hitting the breakpoints is. I would only socket with Um rune/P ruby(life)/Shael rune(FHR)/ and facets as a last resort.

I would only facet Fathom/Griffons/Esculas.

I have used Tals set a little, and it does have some good things, but the damage really is not there, and there is no way to improve it but facets and skillers.

Them aint cheap. I will try to make an example of what the differences can be(for meteor/ORB), but it will be in single player, and not on the realm.

I would really want to get max resists(tals does this for me alone), Then 86% FHR, and after that 105% Fast cast.

105% fast cast is only viable with Magefists/2x 10FCR rare ring/lidless. That leaves you as a max vita build only, and I feel lidless can be a bad choice for a shield. I would rather use a Scantuary Troll Nest or a Stormshield. I might use a 20/-20 shield too, just depending on how strong the character can be.

People try to get to this epitome of killing power not only to level, but because MFing faster nets you more items. I have seen a difference myself what 63% FCR->105% FCR can speed up your runs, assuming you dont run out of mana.

Tals by itself only gave me 163-200% magic find, which does not impress me compared to occy/shako/skulders, but if you only want 63% FCR tals does leave you to use chanceguards/wartravs very easily, assuming you get FHR somewhere.

Just for example, My blizzard damge with one skiller was around 8.5k, and with tals it is 5K, that is a BIG difference, and It just leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. Ice blast used to do 3.5K, and now it does less than 2K.

Tals is cheap though, and readily available. The only thing that makes it really bad in my eyes is when you switch to use a CTA you loose the HUGE life and mana bonuses from the Set and Tal's Orb, and that can really hurt. Having wizzy/lidless on switch will make you loose all those bonuses, not including,

+3 sorc skills
25% FHR
over 200 life
huge mana
the + skills from orb
any blocking you had
50% resist all, made up my wizzy and Pdiamond.
Etc.

I dont see the point in that.

I will give it a go, and I will limit myself to 5 skillers, 4 small charms, and one anni.

[melianor]

Wizard Spike / Lidless is only used for teleporting, and though you loose the points as you quoted high FCR, +mana and maxed resists is all you need for fast teleporting for say to the Throneroom.
I do not dispute that added FHR might be useful, but one i thing i would like to dispute is that in some ways you seem to fail to see that obviously players using Tal's set or some other setup with less protection do just as fine as your setups!

From my experience i have never needed FHR, and only needed max-block and Faster Blocking. The only things i ahve sofar needed to survive with my builds, are FCR at either 63% or 105% for Teleporting, max-blocking, high life and high mana, though i always keep mana lower than life.

Facets are something i consider a nice addition, skillers aswell. Bringing a Meteorb build to lvl92 never required any of the optimized advanced protection you mention. Dont get me wrong, i do not say that your setup is not perfect or very well chosen, since you obvisously know the workings of the game very well, but what i would like to say that a different setup can do it too, maybe not that perfect but it is an option that works! Just quoting my experience here between and i have only ever played Sorceresses.

About CBF Minotaurs and Shiver Armor. Those are the only one CBF and i never let those get into my way. I think playing technics play alot of importance here too. How do you see that?

With a Meteorb build i have done countless of 8p Baalruns and did mostly do the teleporting and started clearing the throne. Sure, there have been times when the char died and yes this might be because of the lack of some improved gear through whatever means. But the times i have died are not somethign that would make me consider changing gear since the occurences are simply that low!

Damage output of a dual tree build will ofcourse be lower, for my personal preference it is enough. The ability to obliterate the Pit or clear the Throneroom or obstacles on the way down simply speak for themselves, or not?

I think we can learn alot from your gear selection fhpchris, but apart from that i would like to see from you that there are other ways, that are maybe not that perfect, but certainly fullfill the tasks aswell! A bit of tolerance would be nice, otherwise there will be headbutting ;)

With Facets you can increase the damage output of Tal's set nicely, i dont see the point there. You can easily reach -35% fire/lightning resistances or +35% cold damage for single tree builds and share an equal amount on dual-tree builds like Meteorb or CL/FO. Even the base -15% fire/lightning and +15% combined with the added +2 mastery already rival added +3 skills and there are no facets added there sofar. Reaching those -15% +15% is already hard with other gear.

The more -xx% sources you add, the more you rival any added +skills. Look at the damage equation. I'd rather have +6skills (not counting the other +skills from no tal items that belong in a setup) and -20% to -35% resistances or added cold damage than a higher amount of +skills and less protection.

Please follow up on that guide for an optimized Tal's set :thumbsup:

[fhpchris]

Wizard Spike / Lidless is only used for teleporting, and though you loose the points as you quoted high FCR, +mana and maxed resists is all you need for fast teleporting for say to the Throneroom.
I do not dispute that added FHR might be useful, but one i thing i would like to dispute is that in some ways you seem to fail to see that obviously players using Tal's set or some other setup with less protection do just as fine as your setups!

From my experience i have never needed FHR, and only needed max-block and Faster Blocking. The only things i ahve sofar needed to survive with my builds, are FCR at either 63% or 105% for Teleporting, max-blocking, high life and high mana, though i always keep mana lower than life.

Facets are something i consider a nice addition, skillers aswell. Bringing a Meteorb build to lvl92 never required any of the optimized advanced protection you mention. Dont get me wrong, i do not say that your setup is not perfect or very well chosen, since you obvisously know the workings of the game very well, but what i would like to say that a different setup can do it too, maybe not that perfect but it is an option that works! Just quoting my experience here between and i have only ever played Sorceresses.

About CBF Minotaurs and Shiver Armor. Those are the only one CBF and i never let those get into my way. I think playing technics play alot of importance here too. How do you see that?

With a Meteorb build i have done countless of 8p Baalruns and did mostly do the teleporting and started clearing the throne. Sure, there have been times when the char died and yes this might be because of the lack of some improved gear through whatever means. But the times i have died are not somethign that would make me consider changing gear since the occurences are simply that low!

Damage output of a dual tree build will ofcourse be lower, for my personal preference it is enough. The ability to obliterate the Pit or clear the Throneroom or obstacles on the way down simply speak for themselves, or not?

I think we can learn alot from your gear selection fhpchris, but apart from that i would like to see from you that there are other ways, that are maybe not that perfect, but certainly fullfill the tasks aswell! A bit of tolerance would be nice, otherwise there will be headbutting ;)

With Facets you can increase the damage output of Tal's set nicely, i dont see the point there. You can easily reach -35% fire/lightning resistances or +35% cold damage for single tree builds and share an equal amount on dual-tree builds like Meteorb or CL/FO. Even the base -15% fire/lightning and +15% combined with the added +2 mastery already rival added +3 skills and there are no facets added there sofar. Reaching those -15% +15% is already hard with other gear.

The more -xx% sources you add, the more you rival any added +skills. Look at the damage equation. I'd rather have +6skills (not counting the other +skills from no tal items that belong in a setup) and -20% to -35% resistances or added cold damage than a higher amount of +skills and less protection.

Please follow up on that guide for an optimized Tal's set :thumbsup:

-xx%: think cold mastery :)
-xx%: think Griffons Diadem
I think tals is better for fire/dual tree because it does give bonuses to both trees, but other than that,

Less than 500dmg per shard orb is not enough for hell to kill in 8 player games. I would expect at least 900.

I cant see a 5K fireball doing much either, in 8 player games, and in order to level at 91+ you must be in 8 player games.

However, I have heard of some good builds, and the skilll points are there, you are just giving up a level 20 telekenisis for a level 20 frozen orb, and dumping the rest into cold mastery.

[melianor]

-xx%: think cold mastery :)
-xx%: think Griffons Diadem
I think tals is better for fire/dual tree because it does give bonuses to both trees, but other than that,

Less than 500dmg per shard orb is not enough for hell to kill in 8 player games. I would expect at least 900.

I cant see a 5K fireball doing much either, in 8 player games, and in order to level at 91+ you must be in 8 player games.

However, I have heard of some good builds, and the skilll points are there, you are just giving up a level 20 telekenisis for a level 20 frozen orb, and dumping the rest into cold mastery.

Dont you see it? I play in 8p games and Fireball damage is about 5k (a bit more) and Orb at 500+ damage! That build does kill in 8p games and the character is at lvl92!, wheter you want to believe it or not. I kind of feel talking a bit against a wall :(
Also with CM 500 orb damage means more like 700-900 damage....

When i mention cold facets i only think about the +xx% cold damage on them, just aswell as with Tal's Orb that adds +xx% cold damage

No i am not giving up a lvl20 Telekinesis, since i dont need it, and no i am not dumping all else into Cold Mastery, since with +skills and a dual tree build all i will need is a slvl17 Cold Mastery to be sufficient.

That dual-build (Meteorb or CL/FO) has done countless of 8p Baalruns and well okay it might take 2-3 Fireballs (Meteorb instead of 1 to kill a monster, but i would please not try to call that insuffcient and no killing power. ALSO the -15% (in my case -20% fire resistance) is not calculated in the damage displayed there or the added cold damage!

What i dont get fhpchris, is that you actually see that there are alot of dual-tree builds out there that indeed do have killing power without a huge amount of +skills AND can do those kills on there own.
I even said that a Meteorb build of mine can do the Pit alone in 8p games without a problem at all, and it is not like i am teleporting like mad and try to kill one monster over 10seconds or more. Its far from that. Groups of CI monster in the pit die within 2-3 Fireballs and FI monsters fall fast to 2-3 Orbs.

Someone i think you doubt my figures or the experience i have made, since you simply read over the experiences i stated and TOTALLY dismiss also what other people have told here, or am i wrong?

The question here is NOT about the fact that your setup is very good and near perfect since it covers about any facet of a range of attacks that can come upon a Sorceress! That is undisputed!
To me it seems more like you question any of the other setups, although you hear people doing 8p games and do have killng power, and they do survive although they play builds that do not come up to your standards.

[fhpchris]

OK: This took a quick 30 mins or so, I may change the skills to more orb and less fireball.

Note: +6 bo CTA/Lidless on switch. This was taken with Battle command and her own level 12 battle orders.

Click Here (http://www.sspmustang.com/D2/Morb.jog)

I would like to see how much life with partying with a druid for oak sage.

Skills: Fire Tree (http://www.sspmustang.com/D2/talsfire.jpg)

Skills: Lightning Tree (http://www.sspmustang.com/D2/talslit.jpg)

Skills: Cold Tree (http://www.sspmustang.com/D2/talscold.jpg)

[fhpchris]

Dont you see it? I play in 8p games and Fireball damage is about 5k (a bit more) and Orb at 500+ damage! That build does kill in 8p games and the character is at lvl92!, wheter you want to believe it or not. I kind of feel talking a bit against a wall :(
Also with CM 500 orb damage means more like 700-900 damage....

When i mention cold facets i only think about the +xx% cold damage on them, just aswell as with Tal's Orb that adds +xx% cold damage

No i am not giving up a lvl20 Telekinesis, since i dont need it, and no i am not dumping all else into Cold Mastery, since with +skills and a dual tree build all i will need is a slvl17 Cold Mastery to be sufficient.

That dual-build (Meteorb or CL/FO) has done countless of 8p Baalruns and well okay it might take 2-3 Fireballs (Meteorb instead of 1 to kill a monster, but i would please not try to call that insuffcient and no killing power. ALSO the -15% (in my case -20% fire resistance) is not calculated in the damage displayed there or the added cold damage!

What i dont get fhpchris, is that you actually see that there are alot of dual-tree builds out there that indeed do have killing power without a huge amount of +skills AND can do those kills on there own.
I even said that a Meteorb build of mine can do the Pit alone in 8p games without a problem at all, and it is not like i am teleporting like mad and try to kill one monster over 10seconds or more. Its far from that. Groups of CI monster in the pit die within 2-3 Fireballs and FI monsters fall fast to 2-3 Orbs.

Someone i think you doubt my figures or the experience i have made, since you simply read over the experiences i stated and TOTALLY dismiss also what other people have told here, or am i wrong?

The question here is NOT about the fact that your setup is very good and near perfect since it covers about any facet of a range of attacks that can come upon a Sorceress! That is undisputed!
To me it seems more like you question any of the other setups, although you hear people doing 8p games and do have killng power, and they do survive although they play builds that do not come up to your standards.

I think your damage is actually very good for the build. I have a Light sorc on the realms that is level 91 That gets about 2 million Experience per 8 player Pit run, and although there are immunes there, I have a godly merc that makes very quick work of them. Killing speed is everything, and I usually join pubbie Baal runs, and keep with them in the same game, but I just pit.

I am sorry If I feel that Tals isnt hte best, but if you have seen some of the tals sorcs in the pubbie baal runs I have, >shudder<

From a personal Perspective, every sorc I make will have level 20 TK/ Energy shield now that I have made one. It is just amazing how you can tank damage with Energy shield.

I tested orb, and a 1K per shard orb did a little more than 3K damage to a victim(Full head on orb), assuming -100 resists. I think you have to multiply that by about 6 to get P vs M damage, which seems about 18K damage per 1K orb. I only did about 950 really, and I feel that 20 times is a better number to go by than 18.

Think of a 1K damage orb as a 20K P vs M damage orb, if your cold mastery is -195 or more.

[melianor]

I think your damage is actually very good for the build. I have a Light sorc on the realms that is level 91 That gets about 2 million Experience per 8 player Pit run, and although there are immunes there, I have a godly merc that makes very quick work of them. Killing speed is everything, and I usually join pubbie Baal runs, and keep with them in the same game, but I just pit.

I am sorry If I feel that Tals isnt hte best, but if you have seen some of the tals sorcs in the pubbie baal runs I have, >shudder<

From a personal Perspective, every sorc I make will have level 20 TK/ Energy shield now that I have made one. It is just amazing how you can tank damage with Energy shield.

I tested orb, and a 1K per shard orb did a little more than 3K damage to a victim(Full head on orb), assuming -100 resists. I think you have to multiply that by about 6 to get P vs M damage, which seems about 18K damage per 1K orb. I only did about 950 really, and I feel that 20 times is a better number to go by than 18.

Think of a 1K damage orb as a 20K P vs M damage orb, if your cold mastery is -195 or more.

Why should i multiply that by 6 to get PvM damage, assuming -100% cold resistance? *confused*
To me it looks like this. Say 500 Orb damage, -100% cold resistance with monster, gives me a 1k Orb display, in whatever way that damage is distributed over the single shards i still fail to grasp :teeth:. But i say, that does not matter to me since i see a) that a full on main Orb does more damage and shards hitting do a bit less and b) that those 500 damage are effective.

Also about TK/ES, i certainly think that this combo is absolutly great, played it aswell :D. Still for personal use and builds i like variety and that is why Tal's serves me nicely, and not because i think its soo good ;)

Tal's might be wasted a bit on a pure single tree Sorc, though with facets i think that can go well too, though i would favor a different setup, since it simply strikes out!

Maybe that is what led to the whole argument here? What this thread is trying to say is that Tal's set is great for any Dual-tree or more even for an archmage built. Single tree Sorcs can certainly benefit more from a different setup.

Also i think its great that there are different opinions, but i kind of feels funny when all your arguments seem to be ignored.

About the usual Sorcbuilds running about in Baalgames. Those are a different matter. Most of them cant even teleport without Maphack (yes they say they cant teleport without) and display no skill at all ;)

[fhpchris]

Why should i multiply that by 6 to get PvM damage, assuming -100% cold resistance? *confused*
To me it looks like this. Say 500 Orb damage, -100% cold resistance with monster, gives me a 1k Orb display, in whatever way that damage is distributed over the single shards i still fail to grasp :teeth:. But i say, that does not matter to me since i see a) that a full on main Orb does more damage and shards hitting do a bit less and b) that those 500 damage are effective.

Also about TK/ES, i certainly think that this combo is absolutly great, played it aswell :D. Still for personal use and builds i like variety and that is why Tal's serves me nicely, and not because i think its soo good ;)

Tal's might be wasted a bit on a pure single tree Sorc, though with facets i think that can go well too, though i would favor a different setup, since it simply strikes out!

Maybe that is what led to the whole argument here? What this thread is trying to say is that Tal's set is great for any Dual-tree or more even for an archmage built. Single tree Sorcs can certainly benefit more from a different setup.

Also i think its great that there are different opinions, but i kind of feels funny when all your arguments seem to be ignored.

About the usual Sorcbuilds running about in Baalgames. Those are a different matter. Most of them cant even teleport without Maphack (yes they say they cant teleport without) and display no skill at all ;)

If I screwed up and only have 85% FHR and not 86% just imagine the Tome of ID as 1x 20 life/5FHR and 1x 20 life/5 all res.

You could also make one of the skillers 12FHR and change the 20life/5FHR to 20 life/5 all resistances.

I felt dumb after I uploaded it, realizing I only had 85%.


I agree that tals is very good for a dual tree sorc, and mixing and matching gear would get difficult, not to mention getting the -% resists that tals does have. When you notice how cheap tals is, any better gear would cost alot more.

For the dual tree sorc on a budget, tals is fine assuming you have the breakpoints, a load of life, and decent resistances.

The PvsP penalty on orb is 1/6th the damage of PvsM, so that is where that # came from.

[PsychoticEwok1]

about that "lack of facets, but i have a perf anni" thing...

in the ONE game that i ever managed to solo dclone in (before i switched out my hammerdin gear for my sorcs)...

he was in the countess' lair, in place of her, and it took me a long time (i dont have the greatest stuff for my pally, most notably i lack HoZ)

but i finally killed him after thousands of $$ in potions and alot of townportaling and he dropped that anni... its like my... CHILD! i would never trade it, because A i dont know how much perf anni is worth, and B no1 im trading it with would know for sure if it was perfect, so they would lowball the trade and C i dont want to even have the remotest chance of getting scammed.

neway...

fhpchris, the argument is NOT over single tree sorcs! and as i said before, its about tals full versus partial tals.

but, on the other side, you have some nice d2 knowledge and im happy this argument has not turned into a flamefest after 7 pages of heated debate.

***

your right, the fireball is a bit weak in 8p baal games... like it takes 10 or more to kill a blood lord (for me, i have no facets). but thats what meteor is for. 1 meteor +2 fireballs and if your unlucky another meteor and they are dead.


*nothing more to say, really, im gonna go actually play :P *

(why do i spend time on the forums? it would be better spent playing diablo 2... or in the long run, something else entirely, but who cares about the long run?)

[fhpchris]

about that "lack of facets, but i have a perf anni" thing...

in the ONE game that i ever managed to solo dclone in (before i switched out my hammerdin gear for my sorcs)...

he was in the countess' lair, in place of her, and it took me a long time (i dont have the greatest stuff for my pally, most notably i lack HoZ)

but i finally killed him after thousands of $$ in potions and alot of townportaling and he dropped that anni... its like my... CHILD! i would never trade it, because A i dont know how much perf anni is worth, and B no1 im trading it with would know for sure if it was perfect, so they would lowball the trade and C i dont want to even have the remotest chance of getting scammed.

neway...

fhpchris, the argument is NOT over single tree sorcs! and as i said before, its about tals full versus partial tals.

but, on the other side, you have some nice d2 knowledge and im happy this argument has not turned into a flamefest after 7 pages of heated debate.

***

your right, the fireball is a bit weak in 8p baal games... like it takes 10 or more to kill a blood lord (for me, i have no facets). but thats what meteor is for. 1 meteor +2 fireballs and if your unlucky another meteor and they are dead.


*nothing more to say, really, im gonna go actually play :P *

(why do i spend time on the forums? it would be better spent playing diablo 2... or in the long run, something else entirely, but who cares about the long run?)

I think that dual tree sorcs are too weak IMHO, and a good merc can really take care of business, but I think this all started with someone asking why tals sucked so much that people called him names, and I can only say that I have seen some REALLY BAD tals sorcies, that really didnt have to be that way. During these 7 pages, I have explained everything I can to try to help the tal sorcies reach thier epitome of kiliing power, not just "this works most of the time" .

Just think if we built bridges or space shuttles with that attitude!

I feel that that attitude is poor, and it ends up killing the others around you, and thank goodness I dont play hardcore with these people. We all want a fast killing character that is practically immortal, and the only way to do that is to try, and not just accept things the way they are.

My personal thing that pisses me off is when people look at my gear(go mapahck!) and tell me that 1) my sorc is a nub sor wearing my cool 1310 Dusk enigma, and 2) it is such a waste.

1) with 77 base str I can wear an SS, and I have over 179 with my gear on, using a scantuary troll nest.
2) +14 life after each kill + chain lightning + 71% energy shield. you do the math.
3)91%MF! 10 million experience away from 92% MF!!
4)+2 all skills!
5)45% faster run walk, speeds up runs :)
6)need I go on? 5% max life, 8% PDR, etc
7) hmm no sojes or frostburns, 1700 mana, teleport costs 7 mana, 105% FCR.
:) If I had godly skillers I could use FCR gloves instead of bloodfists, and still have 105%FCR/86%FHR/more +skills/more mana.

Besides, I hate to see the enigma sit in my stash, even though it can cost 150,000 gold to repair 1 durability.....
:cheesy:

All in all, I want to think of this thread not about dual tree vs single, tals vs your own, or anything of that nature, but that

MEETING THE BREAKPOINTS WITH EVEN THE CRAPPIEST GEAR MAKES YOU BETTER THAN THOSE THAT DO NOT!

I think that some people might see the light now!
-Chris :thumbsup:

[Hoedog]

Hmm...just realized I over "um'd" my shield. I could've gotten all max resists from one um in the Headhunters (the big poison and fire on that thing help a lot). Dammit, I could've gone two ists!

Well, now that I think about it, I should go with two fire facets and an um. That extra -10 fire resists will go a long way...sweet!
Very nice post Zroc :)

btw... You could have just used P diamonds in your shield which would have been MUCH cheaper :o

[Pimpin Dream Girl]

oh cmon no matter how much u wanna change the basics of d2 mf sorc styles, hoto n shako r better at hell baal runs than tal helm and orb.....

hoto and shako gives a lot more fcr / resi / more life n mana (i think)

anywayz they get a lot more mf with it too especially if u sock shako w/ ptopaz

METALLICA / LINKIN PARK FOR L-I-F-E!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

[deathclanman]

hmmm seams like most ppl just dont know how to make a ful tal scorc i killed with my lvl 71 mf fb scorc a ful tal scorc and my fb only does a small 2k dam i know dont laugh i built wrong so im making a new mf fb scorc maybe ill make a ful tal scorc to seams like if u can solo hell baal your doing sumtin right and ya i got a occy and i dont like the random teleing angers me and sumtimes has killed me agenst nm baal but ya i do see alot of ppl get called noobs for wearing ful tal or ful ik i think you just gata put the right skills n stat points to make the char just right like if u make a lightcoldfire scorc doesnt matta wat gear u got on its gana suck due to lack of synergys u cant max it all out so everything gets weaker

my thoughts are a light scorc is probly best i mean ya frozen orb is a great skill so is fb if u max out synergys but in nm n hell u get alot of resist to both of thoses u dont c many light resist just a thought 4 u im cing more n more light scors but ive ben laying off my scorc to build my java zon so just keep the light scorc thing in mind they also have static feild a very nice skill and u can get es another good skill and max out chain lighting maybe? well if n e of u got a light scorc let me know wat skills u out in it and wat gear i should use i dont plan on making this one a mf but a pure killer

[melianor]

Stickied for a while again and added to the Sorceress Guide Library.

[xzist]

In response to fhpchris, some of your points are confusing. In one post you talk about a single tree sorc, others a dual tree sorc of yours. In some posts it seems your talking about solely PK sorcs.. Please clarify, exactly what build are you using for your MF sorc? Dual/single tree, ES/No ES? And thusly, what items does she use. It seems you go back and forth in your posts from one of your sorcs to another. When explaining which items they use sometimes its confusing as to how your sorcs reach the breakpoints with the items you describe they use. My post is not to flame/attack/criticize you. I've read through your posts and some of the points you make dont seem to comply with one another.

[fhpchris]

In response to fhpchris, some of your points are confusing. In one post you talk about a single tree sorc, others a dual tree sorc of yours. In some posts it seems your talking about solely PK sorcs.. Please clarify, exactly what build are you using for your MF sorc? Dual/single tree, ES/No ES? And thusly, what items does she use. It seems you go back and forth in your posts from one of your sorcs to another. When explaining which items they use sometimes its confusing as to how your sorcs reach the breakpoints with the items you describe they use. My post is not to flame/attack/criticize you. I've read through your posts and some of the points you make dont seem to comply with one another.

I have more than one level 92+ Ladder MF sorc, and each one gets her time to go pk, but that is only because a good MF sorc will be a reasonably strong character.

Blocking, or no blocking,
One tree or multiple, (and yes dual tree sorcs are weak and slow compared to single)
ES or No ES (Blood mana curse is annoying, even worse when chain Lightning is 50+ mana a cast and you have base vitality)
Good items or crappy items

Those are all decisions you must make, the typtical meteor/fireball/frozen orb tals sorc is just a weak build, there are still monsters in the game you cant kill, and the ones you can kill you kill slowly. Build a single tree sorc, and get a Reaper's toll thresher, or a rare polearm that has huge damage and % chance to cast amp damage.

I made the dual-tree tals sorc to prove that the damage of the build is low.

My ladder sorcs are 1)a pure Blizzard, and 2) chain lightning with ES
-------------------------------

Gear

It is not about what gear you use, it is about how it works together. I have listed the breakpoints, follow them, and get about 100-200% mf and you will be fine.

Stats
If you try to go all vita, you can have over 2300 life, but certain things in PvP(WW ASSASSINS) will **** you if you dont have block. Those monsters in baal runs, such as, a
Death Lord (http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5-bloodlord.shtml) That can be very nasty in extra fast, aura enchanted, etc.

Using an enigma to save strength, can be a good way to go. Yes, you can get one for 5 ists, and if you run countess or rush for forges, 5 ists isnt really that much. If you want to use cheaper gear, things like upgraded Vipermagi can be great as well, but they wont give you 70 strength and 99% magic find like enigma will :)

Skills
Single tree is the only way to go. Get a Reaper's toll Thresher. Holy freeze and decrepify is fun. Blackhorns even has slows target, which stacks and makes the baddies slllllooowwwwwwwwwwww. Having a merc that makes everything slow is great.

But how do I get the breakpoints and have a bunch of MF!
You only need 100-200%.

The Fast cast you need all must come from gear. Figure that out first. 63% or 105%

The FHR you need can come from charms easily. Bloodfists are a popular choice too. Again get 86%. Yes I know that is about 60% more than you normally have. Just get 86%. Small charms can have 5% and grands can have 12%.

FBR matters, but only if you block. I dont think it is worth shaeling a SS for it though. If you want fast blocking use whitsans.

My personal opinion is that if you can pvp with your mfsorc, than she is ready for pretty much anything pvm wise. It is also pretty fun pvping with chanceguards on an bragging about it.

I think the best MF sorc is the hammerdin, I do not see many sorcs having the ability to do the damage like he can. Soloing 8 player Chaos scantuary or Baal is not something you can do with a sorc period, with exception of a Blizzard sorc that has very godly gear and lightning absorb, along with a nice merc. Is it overpowered? yes, but that does not make it easy.


Dont get stuck on the gear, get stuck on the breakpoints. If you dont know them off the top of your head you are doing something wrong.

[xzist]

I figured this discussion would be more suited for a private message rather than clutter up the tal post. I went ahead and sent you a private messsage chris.

[Gaza0469]

I couldnt aggree more, Tals set is damn good, I dont know why people say its a newbie set, as the entire set takes time to find, the total stacked bonuses far exceed anything else out there. Throw in a couple if Ist runes or Perfect Topazs and you get to 300% Magic find without even trying!! Plus once your sorc is level 95, you can get away with not wearing the best gear, your spells will cause so much damage that nothing will be able to take you on :):):)

[fhpchris]

I couldnt aggree more, Tals set is damn good, I dont know why people say its a newbie set, as the entire set takes time to find, the total stacked bonuses far exceed anything else out there. Throw in a couple if Ist runes or Perfect Topazs and you get to 300% Magic find without even trying!! Plus once your sorc is level 95, you can get away with not wearing the best gear, your spells will cause so much damage that nothing will be able to take you on :):):)

Except for black souls and death lords. They will take you on.

Tals is alright, but it is those ist runes and PTopazes that make the tals set bad, you end up not having much FHR, and less life than other sorcs that use CTAs, and less damage than them too.

For meteororb, tals is a good compromise, but for any other build, sell your tals stuff :)

[melianor]

Except for black souls and death lords. They will take you on.

Tals is alright, but it is those ist runes and PTopazes that make the tals set bad, you end up not having much FHR, and less life than other sorcs that use CTAs, and less damage than them too.

For meteororb, tals is a good compromise, but for any other build, sell your tals stuff :)

Or any other Dual-tree build it is useful and very well and by far a compromise. Whoever said to socket it with PTopazes and Ists? How about Shaels and other useful runes? WHat about your guide to making Tal's Set perfect fhpchris? I remember you told us here that you were going to post something like that?

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

Or any other Dual-tree build it is useful and very well and by far a compromise. Whoever said to socket it with PTopazes and Ists? How about Shaels and other useful runes? WHat about your guide to making Tal's Set perfect fhpchris? I remember you told us here that you were going to post something like that?

I totally agree. I find tals highly underestimated for duels, and for mf only.
Full Tals worth Ist which is very cheap for armor / wep / helm / ammy / belt, and its results are surprising once you attain the max bonus for the entire set. I advise ALL 2skill tree sorcs who aren't just rich enough to get whatever they want to get Tals.

- Dennis

[jblakely]

From a personal Perspective, every sorc I make will have level 20 TK/ Energy shield now that I have made one. It is just amazing how you can tank damage with Energy shield.Could you expand on this? How would you place points for a Blizzard sorc if you are commiting 40 of your points to the lighting tree? Would you do Blizzard and Mastery, placing anything extra in one of the synergies, or would you skimp on Mastery and try to fill in the synergies? I would love to hear your opinion on this since I was thinking about trying the 20 TK/ES approch with my next sorc.

[edit] Also, would you still make a blocking sorc if your energy shield is that good or go with a vit sorc and just let the hits land as they will?

Jack :drink:

[jblakely]

As to the main post I can only agree with both sides. :lol: I have tals on my orb/meteor sorc and for the price I think its the best thing going. I play ladder/west/HC and some of the suggestions are just beyound my means. I dont have CTA, I dont have HOTO, I dont have an annialus, and any +life sc I find over 10 is still a keeper. Add to that time constraints and I dont do all that much mf so although I dont think of myself as poor, I do see many of the suggested items as out of reach of the average player.

I agree with you completely Chris about hitting the break points. I have always chosen survivability over mf. If you can survive through the runs the items will come. I am down a notch from where you suggest though and would love some feedback if you have any reasonable (cheap) suggestions to improve.

63% FCR is NEEDED, 105% Preferred
42% FHR is NEEDED, 86% Prefered
27% FBR is NEEDED if you block, 48% is preferred. I am at 63/86/27 on your list. Without HOTO I look at 105 fcr as out of reach, and I am not giving up my resistance/block from Sanchary and swithcing to lidless to get it. I am not sure about the fbr you suggest. I am using Sanchary troll nest and I really dont know what to add to get block rate up.

My gear is: Tals set, sandstorms, magefists, sanchary troll nest shield, soj, 10% fcr rare ring with life and mana. I have two open sockets (armor and orb) the helm socket is shealed to reach second fhr break. Invenotry is mainly life chamrs, one 5fhr (only needed one but thats what I had), and a couple of resist chamrs (Diablo gods did not favor me when I made Sanchary, although I am middle of road so cant complain too much).

I dont need the fcr ring since I am using megefist and not going for 105 but dont have an extra soj or bk and not sure what else would be better. It has huge life so keeping for the time being. Could use that spot for resists if I make other changes. My resists are all maxed or very close to maxed but poison would be a problem if I switch out boots. I could sheal armor and switch boots, but not sure how that will really help other than getting mf up a bit. As to the glove spont, I have to maintain +13 fcr somewhere other than set, so if I change gloves I would have to replace the soj with another 10% fcr ring. Anyway, if you have any suggestions let me know, always looking to improve.

Jack :drink:

[NobleLeader]

I dont really like using the tal set. If i was MF'ing i still really wouldnt need that much + skills to kill hell baal. Cuz my sorc does 6.5K w/ out my +skills gear. (I got 8 +cold gc's) Heres what i use to mf...Shako w/ P topaz, 4 isted shield, occy w/ ist (sometimes ali babba, varies) , war travs, chance guard, goldwrap, 2 nagels (28% and 27%), +3 coldskills ammy w/12% mf, and skullders w/ p topaz. I dont really like using ists in armor, helms, and some cases even shields if u cant afford it. I think ists are to expensive and should only be used in weapons. That's why i isted my occy, i isted my shield for some dumb reason but it helps. The only trouble i have is low resists...but to make up for this i usually just carry +15 to resisits. Its pretty hard to find +15 to cold/poison/lightening/fire but once you find 2 or 3 of each your mf will be pretty good. If you continue w/ this strategy I find it easy to MF. People usually forget that a Merc is a Good way to find good MF items. My merc has about 250% MF. And I have 400% MF. So, whenever my merc kills a monster or a boss the MF percent is 650%. If you dont know how the whole merc thing goes I will explain. It is good to have a high percent of MF but having a high % of MF doesnt mean that you will find rares and super uniques all the time, but it will happen more. (It also involves more luck, as well) But if you have your merc kill a monster or boss the % will be 650 and you will have a better chance of finding something. If you do a lot of dmg to Mephisto for e.x. and have your merc finish him off is a really good way to do things. I hope your understand how this works now, but understand, you will find rares and superuniques but it may not be what you are looking for. MF'ing takes a lot of time to do...you will find good items if u wait. Below I will list the gear i wear and the gear that my merc wears. Just remember to get the highest % of MF have your merc get the final hit on the boss.

My Gear-
Skullders w/ P Topaz
Shako w/ P topaz
4 soc shield w/ 4 Ists
Occulus w/ 1 Ist
23% chance guards
42% war travs
2 nagel rings 28% and 27%
+3 cold skills ammy w/ 12% mf
P Gold Wrap (30%)
Alli Babba w/ 2 ists (i switch my weapon on the final hit)
+1 cold skills (I have 8)
3 +15 resist scs of each resist poison/cold/fire/lighteing

My Mercs Gear- I have a merc from A3 just to let you no
Skullders w/ P Topaz
3 soc helm w/ 3 P Topaz
4 soc shield w/ 4 P topaz

Just remember that this char is a complete MF char to be successful you will need the charms that I have because you will do virtually no damage and your resistances will be poor. Make sure to cast Mana Shield and Shiver Armor to make your defense go up and to make your damage go directly to your mana. Make sure your warmth is on a decent lvl so your mana recharges semi decent. You will still have to use health and mana potions. So i hope this helped you out a little bit and I hope this stragegy works well for you because it works good for me. Later

[melianor]

... If i was MF'ing i still really wouldnt need that much + skills to kill hell baal. Cuz my sorc does 6.5K w/ out my +skills gear. (I got 8 +cold gc's)

Excuse me, but +8 Cold Skiller Grand Charms, thats +skill gear. No way you will convince me that this is not considered as such. Without it your damage would be rather small. +8 skills is rather much already.

Agreed though that by using GCs you can concentrate on using MF-gear on your Sorceress, on the other hand you could just replace those +8 Cols GCs with 24 5-7% MF scs, giving you 120-168% MF.
So i think that argument about not using +skills is rather nullified? ;)

Also someone uses Tal's set for combined good protective gear and MF.

[MadWereWolfBoy]

Very nice analysis Zroc!
I'll follow up confirming your build and the values with my Meteorb sorc and alternative Occy/Shako setup.

The way i see it, -xx% res, +xx% dam and (with best orb) +2 to masteries adds enough to outshine the other setups. Its funny to see that you dont loose +skills that way :p

The only way to get more killing power would be to ditch the whole Tal's Set (except ammy) and substitute with UM+Viper, Arachnid, Occy/HotO, Shako, which i am playing around now with. I get the same Res than as with the Tal's setup but i lack some life and other stuff (though FCR suddenly is crazy)

In your comparison though i absoluty agree that Full Tal's outshines and half Tal Set breed in any way. Some people jst dont want to do the calculations and miss out on the -xx%res and +xx%dam. Match that with a perfect Tal's Orb and you can build Archmage or Meteorb very effective.
The point is that Tal's Set is useful on a 2-tree or 3-tree build but not on single-tree.

Thx for couting it all out to us!
after what melianor said, i have some doupts on using full tals set on my pure cold blizz sorc...

so has any1 tried it on a pure blizz sorc yet? would full tals set be more effective then a occy/shako combo?

[melianor]

after what melianor said, i have some doupts on using full tals set on my pure cold blizz sorc...

so has any1 tried it on a pure blizz sorc yet? would full tals set be more effective then a occy/shako combo?

You mean replacing Tal's Orb and Mask with Shako/Oculus? Full Tal's would in that case still be more powerful, simply for the added life and mana and all the other mods. It would only up your +skills by one, so unless you really think you need that much added MF (which i think you dont), then you could use the shako/oculus combination.

Unless you can afford some highlvl runewords its not even worth thinking about ditching Tal's set for anything else. For a Blizzard Sorc this would include Death's Fathom, Nightwings Helmet, +3 Blizzard Ormus,......

If you can't afford all of those, stick with complete Tal's.

[squigipapa]

I use tals on my pure PvM Blizzard sorc. I do fine with it. Like Melianor said, I could definitly do more damage with the 'best of the best' items, but tals set is very nicely balanced for PvM. My only problem is that teleport is not quite as fast as I would like it to be. However, I use a teleport switch of wizardspike/lindless and it works fine.

It's definitly not 'the best' setup for a blizzard sorc, but it is a very nice, defensive setup that can take me pretty much anywhere I want to go in hell.

[ronj]

Just 400 mf and low resists? No offense but i don't see the point...
My meteorb mf sorc wears full tal with 48 war travs, 40 chancies, 29 and 30 nagels, ptopaz tal mask, ptopaz tal armor, gheed, mf charms and I have a bit over 450 with good resists. I also use a dual mf jewels ali baba and rhyme on switch, then I almost hit 600.

Maybe your numbers aren't right cause you only have 400mf and you sacrifice alot of killing speed and ability to survive. I prefer my tal setup :uhhuh:

I dont really like using the tal set. If i was MF'ing i still really wouldnt need that much + skills to kill hell baal. Cuz my sorc does 6.5K w/ out my +skills gear. (I got 8 +cold gc's) Heres what i use to mf...Shako w/ P topaz, 4 isted shield, occy w/ ist (sometimes ali babba, varies) , war travs, chance guard, goldwrap, 2 nagels (28% and 27%), +3 coldskills ammy w/12% mf, and skullders w/ p topaz. I dont really like using ists in armor, helms, and some cases even shields if u cant afford it. I think ists are to expensive and should only be used in weapons. That's why i isted my occy, i isted my shield for some dumb reason but it helps. The only trouble i have is low resists...but to make up for this i usually just carry +15 to resisits. Its pretty hard to find +15 to cold/poison/lightening/fire but once you find 2 or 3 of each your mf will be pretty good. If you continue w/ this strategy I find it easy to MF. People usually forget that a Merc is a Good way to find good MF items. My merc has about 250% MF. And I have 400% MF. So, whenever my merc kills a monster or a boss the MF percent is 650%. If you dont know how the whole merc thing goes I will explain. It is good to have a high percent of MF but having a high % of MF doesnt mean that you will find rares and super uniques all the time, but it will happen more. (It also involves more luck, as well) But if you have your merc kill a monster or boss the % will be 650 and you will have a better chance of finding something. If you do a lot of dmg to Mephisto for e.x. and have your merc finish him off is a really good way to do things. I hope your understand how this works now, but understand, you will find rares and superuniques but it may not be what you are looking for. MF'ing takes a lot of time to do...you will find good items if u wait. Below I will list the gear i wear and the gear that my merc wears. Just remember to get the highest % of MF have your merc get the final hit on the boss.

My Gear-
Skullders w/ P Topaz
Shako w/ P topaz
4 soc shield w/ 4 Ists
Occulus w/ 1 Ist
23% chance guards
42% war travs
2 nagel rings 28% and 27%
+3 cold skills ammy w/ 12% mf
P Gold Wrap (30%)
Alli Babba w/ 2 ists (i switch my weapon on the final hit)
+1 cold skills (I have 8)
3 +15 resist scs of each resist poison/cold/fire/lighteing

My Mercs Gear- I have a merc from A3 just to let you no
Skullders w/ P Topaz
3 soc helm w/ 3 P Topaz
4 soc shield w/ 4 P topaz

Just remember that this char is a complete MF char to be successful you will need the charms that I have because you will do virtually no damage and your resistances will be poor. Make sure to cast Mana Shield and Shiver Armor to make your defense go up and to make your damage go directly to your mana. Make sure your warmth is on a decent lvl so your mana recharges semi decent. You will still have to use health and mana potions. So i hope this helped you out a little bit and I hope this stragegy works well for you because it works good for me. Later

[semisonic9]

SO is the Tals only good mor mixed tree's or can my Blizzard Sorc benefit as well? Sorry for not reading all eight pages, I just skimmed, but that seemed to be the consensus.

[melianor]

SO is the Tals only good mor mixed tree's or can my Blizzard Sorc benefit as well? Sorry for not reading all eight pages, I just skimmed, but that seemed to be the consensus.

Well, unless you can afford Nightwings Veil and Death's Fathom, Tal Rasha Set is also very viable for you pure Cold Sorceress, apart from the life, mana, resist benefits the orb adds +15% cold damage (very useful on cold tree since there is no +xx% cold damage from mastery there) and the added +2 mastery aswell.

[sorcees]

I really love the full Tal's set, but i want to point on 1 thing i have noticed, with a good and a bad side.
This is for HC, wearing the full set gives you the shiny aura, i like it very much (good), but i noticed that a lot of (TP)PK will focus on me, it seems to work like a sign "KILL ME, KILL ME" (bad).

He, 500 posts for me, gratz, :drink:

[deadbeater]

I have more than one level 92+ Ladder MF sorc, and each one gets her time to go pk, but that is only because a good MF sorc will be a reasonably strong character.

Blocking, or no blocking,
One tree or multiple, (and yes dual tree sorcs are weak and slow compared to single)
ES or No ES (Blood mana curse is annoying, even worse when chain Lightning is 50+ mana a cast and you have base vitality)
Good items or crappy items

Those are all decisions you must make, the typtical meteor/fireball/frozen orb tals sorc is just a weak build, there are still monsters in the game you cant kill, and the ones you can kill you kill slowly. Build a single tree sorc, and get a Reaper's toll thresher, or a rare polearm that has huge damage and % chance to cast amp damage.

I made the dual-tree tals sorc to prove that the damage of the build is low.

My ladder sorcs are 1)a pure Blizzard, and 2) chain lightning with ES
-------------------------------

Gear

It is not about what gear you use, it is about how it works together. I have listed the breakpoints, follow them, and get about 100-200% mf and you will be fine.

Stats
If you try to go all vita, you can have over 2300 life, but certain things in PvP(WW ASSASSINS) will **** you if you dont have block. Those monsters in baal runs, such as, a
Death Lord (http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5-bloodlord.shtml) That can be very nasty in extra fast, aura enchanted, etc.

Using an enigma to save strength, can be a good way to go. Yes, you can get one for 5 ists, and if you run countess or rush for forges, 5 ists isnt really that much. If you want to use cheaper gear, things like upgraded Vipermagi can be great as well, but they wont give you 70 strength and 99% magic find like enigma will :)

Skills
Single tree is the only way to go. Get a Reaper's toll Thresher. Holy freeze and decrepify is fun. Blackhorns even has slows target, which stacks and makes the baddies slllllooowwwwwwwwwwww. Having a merc that makes everything slow is great.


Isn't reapers toll level 86? fhp, you may not know it, but people do play levels 1-85, as opposed to playing hell cows with a level 99 since level 1.

And not everyone have 'friends' that somehow possess all the runes and the godly gear, much less those that can maphack baal runs.

And also, I play in US East. Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing is cheap there.

[melianor]

Isn't reapers toll level 86?

Reapers Toll is lvl75 req.

[Ruick]

8 pages of reading and i didnt real have time to read it all though lol, but basically tals set is for multi elements? my sorc is a orb/es Frozen orb sorc. Tals Isnt for her? She doesnt need resists as much because the damage absorbed through es doesnt count resists, but then again still 35% damage goes to hp. What do you guys think?

[sorcees]

And now the new rune words are out, should i consider an other shield?
Spirit in monarch, steep strenght requirements, how about max block for this one?

[Liessa Wyrmbane]

And now the new rune words are out, should i consider an other shield?
Spirit in monarch, steep strenght requirements, how about max block for this one?
301 dex needed for max block at level 80 with Spirit monarch... not worth it. It's good though if you forget about max block.

[melianor]

301 dex needed for max block at level 80 with Spirit monarch... not worth it. It's good though if you forget about max block.

Somebody else talking sense. Spirit is not a blockign shield. Even if you sacrifice and just try to reach 50% chance to bloc, then you can just aswell skip blocking and go all Vitality *point*

Spirit is a great Vita-build shield. With a perfect vrsion you can reach 105% without Wizzy or some other FCR gear and just use your basic killing gear.

[tallon]

Hello,

I have no had time to read *ALL 20* pages of this thread...

But I have a very quick and simple question...

The creater of this guide said he had lvl 29 Meteor/Cold Orb/etc. That's maxed + 9 in extra skills.

Tal Rasha's only gives 5 to skills, right? And the annihilus adds another 1, and then he has two soj's.

That would be +8 in skills, 28 skill levels total. Or am I missing something? (Or does diabloii.net have the stats for tal wrong?)

I am trying to plan my MF sorc to get her Cold Mastery to lvl 17 after + to skills. But I'm not wanting to include an annihilus or Soj's on that cacluation, as I'm not sure how well I'll be able to get them.

-tallon

[Azathor]

Hello,

I have no had time to read *ALL 20* pages of this thread...

But I have a very quick and simple question...

The creater of this guide said he had lvl 29 Meteor/Cold Orb/etc. That's maxed + 9 in extra skills.

Tal Rasha's only gives 5 to skills, right? And the annihilus adds another 1, and then he has two soj's.

That would be +8 in skills, 28 skill levels total. Or am I missing something? (Or does diabloii.net have the stats for tal wrong?)

I am trying to plan my MF sorc to get her Cold Mastery to lvl 17 after + to skills. But I'm not wanting to include an annihilus or Soj's on that cacluation, as I'm not sure how well I'll be able to get them.

-tallon


2 from the ammy
3 for complete set bonus
1 from orb with 1 other set piece
2 Soj's
1 from anni

That equals 9 for me.

Az.

[tallon]

Oh, ... see, they don't say that the orb gains a +1 bonus to skills with another set item :).

Isn't on the partial bonuses section, nor on the item itself.. so dii.net is a bit incorrect.

Thanks,

-tallon

[Azathor]

Oh, ... see, they don't say that the orb gains a +1 bonus to skills with another set item :).

Isn't on the partial bonuses section, nor on the item itself.. so dii.net is a bit incorrect.

Thanks,

-tallon

No sweat. BTW I got that from AS. Yeah, I agree Dii.net is missing that for some reason....

Az.

[Lunatic]

Spirit is a great Vita-build shield. With a perfect vrsion you can reach 105% without Wizzy or some other FCR gear and just use your basic killing gear.

My meteorb uses a 35% FCR spirit shield. In combination with full tal's set and magefist I get 105% FCR. This is really great. I can spam static field really fast (it helps alot vs fire immunes) , and same goes for fireball (the spamming part:D). With a few charms (I don't have an anni on ladder) I have maxed fire/lightning/cold resist aswell.

If anyone is doubting to get 156 str for a spirit (monarch has the lowest req of all 4 socket non paladin shields) , and you can get the next FCR break with it , I say go for it. The +mana on it offsets the higher str req alittle (you can go with base mana or low nrg that way) and the +2 all skills is very nice aswell.

[ByteMeHard]

I gotta agree with all you guys that Tal's set just rules for all around mf and dmg output all around, but I'm still trying to decide on one thing for my Meteorb sorceress.

Right now my basic setup for my character includes a full Tal's set with the helm and body PTopaz socketed, Magefists, 49% War Travs, and two SoJ's.

This sets my character at:

+317 Life, +359 Mana, Regen Mana 25%, Replen Life +10
+10 Str, +20 Dex, +10 Vit, +10 Eng
Fire Res 135%, Cold Res 135%, Lit Res 168%, Pois Res 98%
1427 Def, +50 Def Missile, M. Dmg Reduced 15, 37% Dmg to Mana
70% FCR, 25% FHR, Atk takes 7 dmg
25% FRW, 40% Slower Stam. Drain
-15% Enemy Fire and Lit Res.
+15% Cold Skill Dmg
+7 skills
+1 Fire skill
+2 Fire and Cold Mastery
+1 Lit Mastery

This is all nice and well, but it leaves me lacking in a few departments. However, anyone paying any real attention here would have realized I've left one main thing out of the equation. The shield.

I've used a few different ones along the way, all to various extents of success. Recently I've been using Stormshield to reach max block, however I really don't like having to invest all the stat points into Str and Dex when I feel it could benefit me more in Vit. I've been looking into Headhunters Glory and trying to find a 3 socket one that I could use to boost my resist and MF. It would immediately help in my lackin Pois resists. Other ideas have included the Sanctuary runeword, and Gerke's Sanctuary, which seems to be overlooked quite a bit.

I find I'm lacking in the resist department (which is what the shield is for, duh), and could also use some damage reduction.

Any Shield Recommendations?

[Sh4dovv]

well this may hav already been said, but i dont want to read thru 20pages of replies :confused:

any char that uses any piece of tals is for MF

full tals gives less mf than occy/shako, therefore full tal doesnt hav much use :(

[k/t]

Hey, Shadovv, did you know EnerSense stole your picture?

Edit: Oops, Sh4dovv.

Edit2: Use Moser's Blessed Circle. All the resists you want, and you can get max block.

[Sh4dovv]

Hey, Shadovv, did you know EnerSense stole your picture?

Edit: Oops, Sh4dovv.

Edit2: Use Moser's Blessed Circle. All the resists you want, and you can get max block.
wow rly? lame i had to pay 2hi for this :rolleyes:


then again if someone sees it as good enuf to copy... :clap:


Edit: EnerSense is not a member on this forum? :rolleyes:

[Ter]

my New Sorceress is just hitting NM baal so she still has a few levels to go before I hit 71 and can use the set.

My planned inventory since I have all of it now will be
Full Tal Set
Magefists
Aldurs set boots
Spirit Monarch
Rings yet to be determined since I don't have any yet
18/18/6 annhilus
1 cold Skill charm

Should give me +9 all skills
+10 to fire and cold
+2 to all masteries.
Maxed resists (The Tal Armor I got has a +10 res all +9 str jewel)
40% FRW
80% FHR
105% FCR (I might only have 102-103 I'll have to check my shield) meaning I
25% FBR (not quite enough but close)
could use a 10% FCR ring
350+ to life
and I'm not putting anything into Dex so no block
I'm hoping she'll be good enough to get me through hell...if not I'll probably take the hint and abandon Hardcore.

The Sprirt shield really seems to address the concerns that fhpChris mentioned to me anyway....and since this is the best I can get my hands on I'm excited to get there.

[Sh4dovv]

wow rly? lame i had to pay 2hi for this :rolleyes:


then again if someone sees it as good enuf to copy... :clap:

well i found this enersense guy, and he has the same avatar as my OLD one, which is perfectly fine as it is a GW one which is publically available on this forum

i thought u meant he copied my new one here :lol:

[ump]

All these pages have me so confused. I have a blizzard sorc whose only job it is to find good equipment to finance all my other characters. She will be doing only magic find runs. The most popular targets will be Meph and Andy. She doesn't have to worry that she doesn't kill everything else. I wouldn't do Baal with this char because of the cold immunes. What I want to know is what is the best gear to ensure that I find good stuff quickly. Do I go with full tals, or use the occy/shako? Are there any advantages to using the "power" equipment like fathom, etc? What should I be socketing my gear with? What is the best shield to use?

[ShadowofAthena]

You all forgot the funnist part....you get to be shiny! lol

[EnerSense]

Hey, Shadovv, did you know EnerSense stole your picture?



Hmmm..... I'm too busy leveling up new characters to be "stealing" anything. lol

-ES

[FrostBurn]

I gotta agree with all you guys that Tal's set just rules for all around mf and dmg output all around, but I'm still trying to decide on one thing for my Meteorb sorceress.

Right now my basic setup for my character includes a full Tal's set with the helm and body PTopaz socketed, Magefists, 49% War Travs, and two SoJ's.

This sets my character at:

+317 Life, +359 Mana, Regen Mana 25%, Replen Life +10
+10 Str, +20 Dex, +10 Vit, +10 Eng
Fire Res 135%, Cold Res 135%, Lit Res 168%, Pois Res 98%
1427 Def, +50 Def Missile, M. Dmg Reduced 15, 37% Dmg to Mana
70% FCR, 25% FHR, Atk takes 7 dmg
25% FRW, 40% Slower Stam. Drain
-15% Enemy Fire and Lit Res.
+15% Cold Skill Dmg
+7 skills
+1 Fire skill
+2 Fire and Cold Mastery
+1 Lit Mastery

This is all nice and well, but it leaves me lacking in a few departments. However, anyone paying any real attention here would have realized I've left one main thing out of the equation. The shield.

I've used a few different ones along the way, all to various extents of success. Recently I've been using Stormshield to reach max block, however I really don't like having to invest all the stat points into Str and Dex when I feel it could benefit me more in Vit. I've been looking into Headhunters Glory and trying to find a 3 socket one that I could use to boost my resist and MF. It would immediately help in my lackin Pois resists. Other ideas have included the Sanctuary runeword, and Gerke's Sanctuary, which seems to be overlooked quite a bit.

I find I'm lacking in the resist department (which is what the shield is for, duh), and could also use some damage reduction.

Any Shield Recommendations?

I love SS, but if you don't and want to go max vita, then get a Moser's and socket it with 2 pDiamonds. Add a few resist small charms, and you should be covered for resists.

[FrostBurn]

All these pages have me so confused. I have a blizzard sorc whose only job it is to find good equipment to finance all my other characters. She will be doing only magic find runs. The most popular targets will be Meph and Andy. She doesn't have to worry that she doesn't kill everything else. I wouldn't do Baal with this char because of the cold immunes. What I want to know is what is the best gear to ensure that I find good stuff quickly. Do I go with full tals, or use the occy/shako? Are there any advantages to using the "power" equipment like fathom, etc? What should I be socketing my gear with? What is the best shield to use?

Simple rule.

Single element, go with uniques, with the potential of using 'power' gear.

Dual element, Tal's set all the way.

[MikeFord]

This thread is insanely long, I skipped the middle, read the first two pages and last 3 pages.

87 Meteor/Orb occy, shako, missing Tals armor still, cheap low chances and wartravelers, and Pdiam mosers, worse no good charms (4 stash blocks used tor less than 20 mf). Still joining pub baal runs because "I am not READY"
for serious solo MFing. Levels will be nice for my merc mostly, what I need are tals armor, and some charms for more mf and max resists. And a better weapon than insight in a grim reaper for my merc.

What this thread skips over is that Tals armor/ammy, MF and resist charms, plus a decent merc weapon are EXPENSIVE. If you are earning your own way, its going to take some serious time to earn that much.

Damage to mana, doesn't that work like life leech, ie only physical damage actually taken counts?

[AnimeCraze]

I love SS, but if you don't and want to go max vita, then get a Moser's and socket it with 2 pDiamonds. Add a few resist small charms, and you should be covered for resists.I would rather go for a perfect spirit. Spirit + magefist + tal's = 105 BP. That frees your ring slots for anything you want. Stick in an anni and torch (or some resist SC) and you will have nearly maxed resist as well.
What this thread skips over is that Tals armor/ammy, MF and resist charms, plus a decent merc weapon are EXPENSIVE. If you are earning your own way, its going to take some serious time to earn that much.MF and resist charms are not that necessary. Merc weapon can be cheap. ex. Obedience and insight are very overpowered runewords given the cost.

By the way, has anyone realized some of the stuff they quoted are from many months ago?

[MikeFord]

Runewords for Insight and Obedience are cheap, ethereal great thresher etc isn't. I started with Insight in a Grim Scythe, then put it in a thresher, and I am very much wanting the Ethereal next step, because it KEEPS the merc alive a LOT better.

I have nothing really in charms, and my hell resists are something like 30/2/30/2 and I do "ok" with one or two players in Act1 runs, but Meph is pretty dangerous for me still, ditto A4/5. Bumping MF from 200ish to 300ish with charms pays off very well, and the reality of how sweet it is to have Gheeds/Anni/torch can't be denied.

[magnusthescott]

I think reading through the first 7 or so pages of this thread has nearly convinced me to try full tals for mfing.

I just had a couple questions:

What happens to your resists (in hell) with just tals equipped and no bonus from other items or charms?
(How much must you make up from other items/charms to hit max?)

Also, I assume people usually use chancies and war travs (unless mana a problem), but what do people use for shield? For me, it depends on my resists after full tals, because resists are easy to get from a shield to help max them out. That determines what shield to use or (depending upon the ammount of res still needed) some small charms.

[FrostBurn]

What happens to your resists (in hell) with just tals equipped and no bonus from other items or charms?
(How much must you make up from other items/charms to hit max?)
35/35/68/-5
The resists from a Torch and Anni should get you to near max or max fire/cold/light. Poison need not be at 75, but if you wish, use some 11% poison resist small charms.

Also, I assume people usually use chancies and war travs (unless mana a problem), but what do people use for shield? For me, it depends on my resists after full tals, because resists are easy to get from a shield to help max them out. That determines what shield to use or (depending upon the ammount of res still needed) some small charms.
If max vita, Spirit monarch is ideal for the +skills and resists. A 35% FCR Spirit with Magefist and full Tal's will get you to the 105% FCR bp.

If max block, an Um'ed Stormshield is a good option.

[Camintoi]

If you subbed the armor with coh, the ammy with maras, the helm w/ shako, the belt with arach, and the wand with hoto woudln't you get more + skills, more fcr, and resistances??... I don't understand someone plz explain how it ends up being mroe damage and better for defenses.

[Kijya]

If you subbed the armor with coh, the ammy with maras, the helm w/ shako, the belt with arach, and the wand with hoto woudln't you get more + skills, more fcr, and resistances??... I don't understand someone plz explain how it ends up being mroe damage and better for defenses.
look also at -res and +cold dmg% on tals orb when having full set. With that setup you suggested you get lot less mf.

[AnimeCraze]

If you subbed the armor with coh, the ammy with maras, the helm w/ shako, the belt with arach, and the wand with hoto woudln't you get more + skills, more fcr, and resistances??... I don't understand someone plz explain how it ends up being mroe damage and better for defenses.Defense = crap for sorceress. And before you ask more questions, you should read the guide careflly, since it does explain in detail on how you ended up with more effective damage. (note that it is about effective damage, which is what really matters, and not displayed damage, which is what you brag about, but is almost worthless)

Now that we get that out of the way....... The value of the Tal's set lies in the orb's -resist/+damage mods. Put it simply, for all enemies with at least 0 fire resist (and < 100), -15% resist is going to increase your FINAL damage by 15%~1500% (15% for enemies with 0% resist, and 1500% for enemies with 99% resist), and almost all enemies have at least 0% fire resist (Andy's an exception). In particular, it increases the damage of your fireballs against hell Meph for 60%.

Note that this set is not as useful if you have infinity (well, nor is meteorb sorc), since it has conviction, which means that you are not increasing your final damage by as much %.

[Camintoi]

I see what you mean now, this thread is a must reAd. Most tals stuff is pretty cheap too.

[Enigmers]

I would use full Tal's in a heartbeat if the mask wasnt so ugly. I prefer aesthetics>stats, because I dont feel like having some character rip my eyes out with ugliness.

This is also why I had to get an ap CoH instead of a Ds.

However, thread poster makes a very valid point, and full tals is very effective. Props to you for doing all that research.

[Camintoi]

Lolz i agree its so damn ugly

[HCKull]

So you limit your cold mastery to a low level, but your tals set effectively boosts this up. The non-tals setup is forced to use the same limits. That does not seem like a reasonable assumption.

If I had a sorc that used the cold tree I would boost up the master to at least drop Baals resists to -100. How does the comparison stand if I did that ?

[AnimeCraze]

Then your fire/light skill suffers, assuming of course you are a dual element.

[kuafu]

It will be much easier to use an Infinity merc for that.

[brokensvt]

Hi all. I just wanted to hop in here(better late than never) and explain what I'm doing with Tal's set, and to clear up any bickering that may have confused the folks who may be new to the game or sorcs.

A little history(get a snack):

I've been dueling pubbies fairly successfully with my BvC and my kicksin for a couple weeks now. I've come to realize that many of the pubbies are quite arrogant(duh!) and/or mouthy. Most have opinions regarding "ideal" gear for any particular build and aren't afraid to tell one about it. Hence "the idea".

After a week or so of piddling around with these folks I began to brainstorm what would represent the rudest, oddest, get-away-from-the-mold pubby dueler might be. I've come up with something that may(should) own at least 50-60% of the pub duelers out there and do it with pazaz. And here it is:

The full-Tal's blizzard sorc...don't laugh please:shocked:

My reasoning is simple. Tal's + any spirit monarch + magefist/trang glove + 10% fcr ring + ravenfrost/soj + [insert favorite boot] + torch/anni + skillers and 2x 5 fhr sc will net the 86fhr bp, the 105fcr bp, give great life and mana, and good damage. Albeit not the "perfect" blizz sorc, she will likely be a fun build which will rival most pubbies and be completely useful for PvM and MF runs.

The reason I mention this is simply to point out the fact that it IS possible to achieve fhr and fcr breakpoints using Tal's...and therefore have the "best" of both worlds.

Greg

[Kupa]

I've seen at least one person duel with a Tals sorc, it was kind cool. Though they didn't sweep the floor or anything, they held their own.

"Glowy Sorceress of Doooom"

That would be kind of cool though. People seem to diss on Tal's set often, and it just seems kind of strange, its one of the easiest ways to max out your res in hell without needing extra sources of resistance.

-Kupa

[JAKEUS]

how will tal's set fair against the Coh, Shako, Maras, Arachs, and hoto o_0

btw, just wondering if tal meteorb is viable for hellforge rushes.

[AnimeCraze]

What build are you using, and do you have infinity?

[JAKEUS]

disregard my questions, all i had to do was read pages 5 and 6 lol.

Btw, wonderful work on this guide, it is deep and is completely based on research. I finally dont feel completely hopeless now thanks to you guys. :thumbsup:

One last question. What level cold mastery should i have, since cold mastery is all about -% and the lowest is -100%? Will cold facets by a waste to put in Tal's? I personally dont know, since im still in nightmare and am unsure about hell. FO seems to be godly in NM, and i have heard that it is a lot more uneffective in hell. Thx for any input

[Bjorgin]

Level 17 cold mastery will give you the best effect. Anything after that is actually a waste.
In some cases you can just have CM given to you for free from tals orb, and have the rest of the +skills to get it to 17! :grin:

[Kupa]

disregard my questions, all i had to do was read pages 5 and 6 lol.

Btw, wonderful work on this guide, it is deep and is completely based on research. I finally dont feel completely hopeless now thanks to you guys. :thumbsup:

One last question. What level cold mastery should i have, since cold mastery is all about -% and the lowest is -100%? Will cold facets by a waste to put in Tal's? I personally dont know, since im still in nightmare and am unsure about hell. FO seems to be godly in NM, and i have heard that it is a lot more uneffective in hell. Thx for any input

The ideal minimum amount of cold mastery is slvl 17 (OR -100% which you can gain via facets? more on that later) or, if your more cold based, you could go for slvl 27 (which takes you to -150%) or, if your nuts, aim for slvl32, which will bring even hell mephisto down to -100% (it having a skill effect of -175%).

Onto cold facets: I've built multiple tal's sorcs, and one of my favorite was a Cold (Orb) variant. The goal here is to get a Tal's Orb w/ +2 Cold Mastery, socket it with any kind of a +5% cold facet (-% meaning nothing to you with cm). You can also socket the armor/helm with cold facets, bringing the total amount of +% to cold skill damage to +30% -- You could furthur increase this via a Monarch w/ 4 +5% facets (bringing skill damage up by 50%!) however I find a spirit shield is much more important, seeing it adds FCR thats so important to many sorceresses.

... ok enough rambling.

If I had a +5% cold facet, I would dunk it into my Tal's Orb (Weapon) in an instant -- even if my tal's sorc is a Meteor/Orb build. Tal's full set gives a bonus of 15% cold skill damage, and you can bring that to +20% with the facet.

Personally I don't use an Infinity mercenary (yet, *grin*) since I utilize a high damage Might+Doom combo (max damage upwards of 7.5k!) plus I enchant him, it makes incredibly deadly vs those occasional Fire/Cold immune monsters I come across.

As for Hellforge rushing -- it is entirely possible to rush from act1 normal, all the way to act3 hell with very few problems (Duriel maybe somewhat harsh if your mercenery/your level isn't high enough, but just make sure to start spamming the heck outta duriel asap -- he should fall pretty quickly, especially if you get an Frozen Orb positioned so it "breaks" inside him (heh, does insane damage ;))

However... Once you hit act4 hell, things become different. Its possibly to run CS, but your merc will become less effective because of Iron Maiden, and without a merc, you will become less effective. Its possibly to clear a great deal of CS without a mercenary, but it can be harsh. At that point I usually switch to a different character (ie: Javazon, or some such).

Wow. I hope that giant ramble includes some kind of helpful info for you. >.>;;;;;

edit: Thought I would mention, it is possible to rush upTO the forge itself, but CS itself will be an incredible pain with IM firing off all too often.

-Kupa

[Eilo Rytyj]

Level 17 cold mastery will give you the best effect. Anything after that is actually a waste.
In some cases you can just have CM given to you for free from tals orb, and have the rest of the +skills to get it to 17! :grin:

Slvl 17 is the maximum you'd want to go with a dual-tree (think Meteorb, CL/Orb, CB/Orb) sorceress, but it's by no means a must have. Slvl 13-16 is perfectly fine if Frozen Orb is merely a backup for Fire/Lightning Immunes.

Don't go out of your way to spend skill points getting it to slvl 17. Slvl 13 is still -80% resist, and the difference between that and -100% is barely noticable in real play.

IMO hybrids are Sorceresses with one element as main, and the other as a backup. In the Meteorb's case, you spend as few points into the Cold skills to get them at their most efficient (either 25 or 26 points, no more, no less). Then you spend as many points into the Fire skills to get them at their most powerful. Same concept for the CL/Orb Sorceress.

A Charged Bolt/Orb Sorc is a bit different, since she only requires 60 points into Lightning skills (well, 63 with 1 point wonders), so you can actually spend further points on increasing her Orb's effectiveness. So basically, with 63 in Lightning, 1 in Warmth, and the 25/26 basic Cold points, you have 89-90 points spent so far (clvl 78/79). You can spend further points on increasing Frozen Orb's power from then on, either with more points in Cold Mastery, or Ice Bolt.

[JAKEUS]

hmmm... let me refrase my question. How many cold and fire facets would be optimal in hell? I dont want to overpower my FO and weaken my fire skills.

Thx

[Bjorgin]

Orb is fine on its own with cold mastery. Use fire facets.

[demonbane]

hmm .............

[templecrasher]

I prefer to use cold facets -the fire will be strong enough as it is. My sorc has all cold skillers plus cold facets in the orb/helm/armor/ +2 in my Moser's.

[AnimeCraze]

Slvl 17 is the maximum you'd want to go with a dual-tree (think Meteorb, CL/Orb, CB/Orb) sorceress, but it's by no means a must have. Slvl 13-16 is perfectly fine if Frozen Orb is merely a backup for Fire/Lightning Immunes.

Don't go out of your way to spend skill points getting it to slvl 17. Slvl 13 is still -80% resist, and the difference between that and -100% is barely noticable in real play.

IMO hybrids are Sorceresses with one element as main, and the other as a backup. In the Meteorb's case, you spend as few points into the Cold skills to get them at their most efficient (either 25 or 26 points, no more, no less). Then you spend as many points into the Fire skills to get them at their most powerful. Same concept for the CL/Orb Sorceress.

A Charged Bolt/Orb Sorc is a bit different, since she only requires 60 points into Lightning skills (well, 63 with 1 point wonders), so you can actually spend further points on increasing her Orb's effectiveness. So basically, with 63 in Lightning, 1 in Warmth, and the 25/26 basic Cold points, you have 89-90 points spent so far (clvl 78/79). You can spend further points on increasing Frozen Orb's power from then on, either with more points in Cold Mastery, or Ice Bolt.Lister is 50% cold resist, and I find that upping my CM further is good for that aspect, especially my fireball kills fast enough in low player count anyways. Of course, this is merely my opinion.

[Bjorgin]

That's a good point since lister's pack is usually fire immune, if not always.

Hurrah for the forums being back up

[mephiztophelez]

i run a fire sosa, the only time lister ISN'T fire immune is when theres a FoH pally or Poisonmancer around.

[PlayWithHonor]

I prefer to use cold facets -the fire will be strong enough as it is. My sorc has all cold skillers plus cold facets in the orb/helm/armor/ +2 in my Moser's.

That's interesting. I do pretty much the opposite. I don't think this is a case of right vs wrong but more of a prefernce as to which skill tree you prefer to use as your primary.

Personally, I run with 5/5 fire facets in my orb/helm/armor. I use a Ber'd Stormshield (hardcore). I prefer to use fireball and will do so everytime except when I meet a fire immune (which seems rare given I run conviction from my merc).

This brings me to why I prefer Fireball over Orb as my primary skill. If you are using an Infinity carrying merc, a fair amount of the fire immunes out there will have their immunities broken such that your Fireball will still be effective. I'm rolling with -30% resistance from Tals/facets so once that immunity is broken they get shredded. Lister's pack is the noticable exception as they remain fire immune but a nice Glacial spike followed by a couple Orbs.. (rinse and repeat) while your merc ownz them all and its pretty safe I've found.

Many of the cold immunes though seem to have really high immunites such that your merc's conviction won't break them. And for me, most of the real annoying monsters tend to be cold immune such as Oblivian Knights and blood star throwing Harpies. So I jack up the power of Fireball and skate through most areas of the game.

Just offering another perspective.

[PhatTrumpet]

I'm the same way. I know this is a thread about Tal's set, but I even went so far as to stick a 5/5 fire facet in my Meteorb's Fathom (don't worry, it was a crappy one... eth 15%).

The way I see it, Meteorb is a fire build with cold and Static as backup. If you the need to boost up your cold damage, make a cold build with fire as a backup, i.e. Blizzball. But again, that's just my opinion.

[euroeric]

Tal's Ammy is more than Tal's armor on USEast Ladder. lol

Seriously? I traded a 920 d tal armor for tal ammy and occulus the other day. After reading this- I'll have to find an orb :)

[MaStAViC]

Wow, very old thread and I still find it to be incredibly useful. I spent about an hour reading the initial post and replies. Thinking about getting Tal Rasha's full set for my Sorceress now =P

Thanks!

[redmagego]

I have loved Tal's from the moment i saw it as a newbie. Despite what people say it is the best option for any sorc. Duel element and single element. I too have been called a 'nub' for wearing my set, but i dont care. I know the truth!
Half the people that insult the set, don't even know anything about the set.
The most common one is this example. The set gives you +6 to all skills,plus 2 to all masteries,plus the 15/15/15 on the orb, which is all over looked. They say 'it only gives you +5 to all skills'.
Tals does lack a tiny bit in the damage department, but that is easily fixed with 3 5/5 facets.
FULL TALS WITH 3 5/5 FACETS OF YOUR CHOSEN ELEMENT OWNS ANY 'ELITE GEAR' OUT THERE. Period.
I have 3 sorcs. All single element. Cold,fire and lightning. And they all have a Full tal set with 3 perf facets of their element. Plus all three have 941 perf armor!
I have experimented time and time again with different setups.
Shako,coh,hoto,spider,maras.
Shako,coh,eschuta,spider,maras.
Nightwing,coh,hoto,snowclash,maras and so on.
And they all fall short of the supreme balance of Tals.
Life,resistances,damage,mf and overall survivablity are Tal's traits.

ps. i also have a mf Tal set. Topaz-helm,Topaz-armor,Isted Orb..

So wear your set with pride and shine!:thumbsup:

[kykle]

full tals is viable, but i must say i like the +30 fire skills i get from my sorc's gear

tals falls short in damage output by a long shot

[Yaotzin]

FULL TALS WITH 3 5/5 FACETS OF YOUR CHOSEN ELEMENT OWNS ANY 'ELITE GEAR' OUT THERE. Period.


This is complete nonsense. Tal's set is *never* the best for single tree sorcs, and is only sometimes best for dual tree sorcs.

That's not to rag on the set, it's good and for it's price it's very good, but it's not the best possible.

[brokensvt]

Read the thread. It's the best setup for any dual-tree sorc, bar none. As far as single tree sorcs, it's all in the thread.

[Yaotzin]

Read the thread. It's the best setup for any dual-tree sorc, bar none. As far as single tree sorcs, it's all in the thread.

I have read the thread, thanks. I just disagree.

[GreatZeal]

I had full set on a pvp Fire sorc pwnt all