View Full Version : For people saying bowzon is useless
I just think they take more skill.
IMO, necs and zons have switched places, zons used to be the unbeatable ranged, and necs the underdogs.
You guys need to rely more on poison/knockback/SPEED/open wounds, instead of huge damage.
Anyone who can get this-
Rare mat bow, best would be (cruel masters mechanics of alacrity amplify damage the bear)
450 e/d
200-ish AR
20ias
5% chance to cast amp
Knockback
2 Sockets (ShaelUm it)
This EASILY beats out windforce/botd.
Along with that
E/D/60IAS armor
Crown of Ages, ed/30ias jeweled.
Highlords
Raven Frosts or adual leech ring like Raven Spiral
Verdungo's
Dracul's Grasp
RUN WALK CHARMS.
That's a 7 frame shot, about 3k (AT LEAST 250 DAMAGE AN ARROW IF THEY HAVE MAX DR) damage + 60% open wounds and as much poison as you want, instead of huge damage arrows use FAST arrows to stun and deliver poison and open wounds (you can still pull off some nice shots with crit/deadly, and the amp on the bow)
You can max guided, get about 5 in multi (use it to kill minions and poison/bleed people), and then you have 70 points to put in your passives, I recommend a lvl 17 valk, max critical, and divide the rest in d/a/e.
Slow missles is great too.
Don't knock it until you've tried it.
welcome to zon forum, fenris
In other words...you still need ridiculousy good equipment that requires 10000 hours of mf to acquire right? Besides Ravenfrost, I don't have ONE piece of equipment on your list and I've been playing for months. I'd love to see some suggestions for untwinked builds.
Darklyre
07-03-2004, 07:29
Dracul's and Verdungo's aren't that hard to get, nor are they extremely expensive (I got my Dracul's for pgems, and Verdungo's aren't much higher in cost). Other items you could try are Cat's Eye in place of Highlord's, as it has IAS and +25 Dex bonus. Andariel's Visage could work, as it has IAS on it as well. As for armor, I'm not too sure what would be best. I'm using a Lionheart Dusk Shroud myself.
In other words...you still need ridiculousy good equipment that requires 10000 hours of mf to acquire right? Besides Ravenfrost, I don't have ONE piece of equipment on your list and I've been playing for months. I'd love to see some suggestions for untwinked builds.
Sure, it's more expensive then buriza.
Nec gear was expensive as HELL in 09, same with good zon gear now.
Superhal
07-03-2004, 08:32
fenris is talking about bowazon pvp, which is always expensive.
untwinked pvp?!? what is that?
fenris is talking about bowazon pvp, which is always expensive.
untwinked pvp?!? what is that?
Well, in the hardcore forum, people often organize ironman tournaments which consist of the participants taking an untwinked character, leveling them up to level 9, and only using what they find/shop along the way, and then fight to the death with these characters.... that's about the only untwinked PvP that I've ever heard of, though.
Fenris, what you are basically suggesting is that we redefine the term 'bad manner'.
Dracul's has Lifetap, the bow seems to have Amplify damage and knockback, you incite the usage of mass poison... three of these four things the amazon was being apalled for in 1.09 and the fourth, life tap, was unavailable.
This type of character seems a lot like an open wounds whirlwind assassin... and they are not held in very high regard. I'm certain this type of amazon build will work, but I am uncertain if people want to resort to such tactics. It's basically a bad manner 1.09 character, but now with 1.10 items.
I don't know why you emphasized speed since most bowazons have always been notoriously built around 7fps or 8fps.
I also don't know why you recommend valkyrie. It does good damage but its AI is horrible, it still dies pretty fast and I think you can still leech from it (didn't check though). Seems like you can spend those points a lot better in other skills.
Fenris, what you are basically suggesting is that we redefine the term 'bad manner'.
Dracul's has Lifetap, the bow seems to have Amplify damage and knockback, you incite the usage of mass poison... three of these four things the amazon was being apalled for in 1.09 and the fourth, life tap, was unavailable.
This type of character seems a lot like an open wounds whirlwind assassin... and they are not held in very high regard. I'm certain this type of amazon build will work, but I am uncertain if people want to resort to such tactics. It's basically a bad manner 1.09 character, but now with 1.10 items.
I don't know why you emphasized speed since most bowazons have always been notoriously built around 7fps or 8fps.
You're still in your 09 mindset kirsty, this is 1.10.
Imagine if a 20k fireball sorc or 7k bone spirit necro, or even a botd char we're in 09, OMG BM!!11!!
i doubt high dmg weapons/spells were considered bm, even in 1.09
Shadoway
08-03-2004, 02:34
fenris is talking about bowazon pvp, which is always expensive.
untwinked pvp?!? what is that?
Then he should state in the title.
Plus, I believe that bow has never been dropped and will never drop.
LeGardien
08-03-2004, 08:11
I just think they take more skill.
You guys need to rely more on poison/knockback/SPEED/open wounds, instead of huge damage.
Perhaps it's because I still have a bit of a "09 mindset," but I found this incredibly amusing.
You can max guided, get about 5 in multi (use it to kill minions and poison/bleed people), and then you have 70 points to put in your passives, I recommend a lvl 17 valk, max critical, and divide the rest in d/a/e.
70 points in passives? Sounds like a pretty inflexible character to me, especially since many people can outrun GA or run them into walls. Valk's incredibly long casting delay makes it nearly impractical except as an occasional meatbag which provides life to any character with leech or Enigma.
It's worth mentioning that since the gains in the passive skills drop off asymptotically after a few points, the return on maxing the skills over putting, say, 5-10 points in them is only about 10% each. I'd rather have one or two elemental bow/jav skills as backup.
Crown of Ages = 174 req str = a lot of stat points.
Also, why Highlord's and not Cat's? With maxed crit you'd only gain about a 10% effective increase in your chance to deal double damage.
Don't knock it until you've tried it.
Have you tried it?
Shug_Ninx
08-03-2004, 08:44
I'm glad I gave up on 1.10. Slow? Knockback, and charges along with % to cast? !.10 PvP seems like a joke to me.
You're still in your 09 mindset kirsty, this is 1.10.
Imagine if a 20k fireball sorc or 7k bone spirit necro, or even a botd char we're in 09, OMG BM!!11!!You've been seduced by the dark side. May Freya discard you as a warrior and let shame overcome you....
Seriously now. I see dueling as skill mainly and using lifetap to stay alive does not fit in there and using mass poison from non-skill sources seems equally dodgy to me. Knockback I don't really mind though.
You've been seduced by the dark side. May Freya discard you as a warrior and let shame overcome you....
Seriously now. I see dueling as skill mainly and using lifetap to stay alive does not fit in there and using mass poison from non-skill sources seems equally dodgy to me. Knockback I don't really mind though.
I'm just saying, you see a zon with wf shooting at like 12fpa whining about how much bowzons are nerfed.
IMO, there are a lot of 'cheap' things in 1.10, huge damage, botd (ith ;)), enigma, but instead of sitting and crying about it, when you can't change anything, learn how to counter it.
Yes, I know what you mean. Bowazons have become quite inferior now that the other classes had such a big boost and most public amazons depended on pierce as well. Me, I'd rather learn to counter other people's weaknesses on a more appropriate level rather than 'joining the cheapness' so to speak. I'm not certain how you look at it though but you seem to have little troubles with the latter.
BotD sadly for bowazons doesn't come in ethereal form so basically we're left with the ultimate rares, windforce, some bows like Hand of Justice perform okayish, the old cruel bows and soe uniques which involve personal preference and 'this is the best I can get' kind of ideas. I've met a few good bowazons so far and they did not rely on poison or open wounds, so I think it just takes some thought to create a good amazon nowadays. I'm happy that it is not as straightforward as most builds.
BT-LightDash
09-03-2004, 10:47
Fenris: the main problem with people/dueling community/pubby in general is that they are very bias
u might ask why?
because to them teleport using enigma + call to arms + their 1337 spells are fine and a bowzon?
omg this zon is using kb it's noob dont use it[ESPECIALLY LEAGUES OMG I CANT BELIEVE THEY STILL THINK WF AND/OR KB IS OverpowereD]
omg this zon uses mass posion it's lame[it is but even like 500 pd to them is lame]
omg this zon uses amplify+slow[slow dosent make a difference much anymore every1 uses tele+slow was nerfed]
omg u use more than 1 absorb u cant do that only 1 absorb is allowed and u will still get owned by my 1337 spells hahaha
so how are zons gonna have a chance?
if i am wrong[meaning it's actually OK to use all these ima gonna start a zon and i will name her YouCantWin[i will still be proved wrong of course]
And 1 more thing,if u have life tap u wont need amplify and vice versa since only 1 curse works at a time...
this is turning out to be a very hurting and flameful thread with two persons at extreme sides. Kirsty, for one, having being in the Zon forum for longer than most of us, deserves more respect and having come from a Druid background, Fenris, I think you shouldn't go so hard on her as she plays her game by her own sets of rules and honor. Each one of us have a different meaning of manners and honor and if like what she says, skills. Why not? Maybe if we really tried to put aside the differences and look at them in a different perspective (i'm not saying i'm not condoning the fact that enigma abusers and poison damage are not bm), in any sense, whether you go equipment dependant or skill dependant, at the end of the day, there's always someone to counter what you feel is right.
My $0.02 with all this thread- i think the zon you're referring to can be more geared towards pvm instead of pvp. and if pdsc and life tap etc comes into play when duelling, keep in mind that they might not win, however cheap the tactics is. And seriously, i won't even get a valkyrie or decoy for pvp fyi. it's a big waste of mana, casting time and generally people avoid them (unless they are like rabies ww and are on a crazy infection rampage [aka SARS] ). The points in passive would go well in d/a/e, critc, no doubt, but if it's a real bowazon, then max ga/strafe would be skills i would advocate in that tree.
I don't think he's being hard on me but just states the facts that 1.10 dueling has rigorously changed. I do still live somewhat in 1.09 in the sense that I don't use any of the overpowering crossclass curses, auras or other general skills like teleport, plus I still see mass poison as a very passive way to hit once and wait until it finished doing its job.
Some are very acceptable to the idea and I don't mind that, however, if someone makes a post on it then I will certainly voice my concerns. I don't think I will change my views on dueling etiquette any time soon, but don't let that hold you back.
shade449
10-03-2004, 09:44
I dont see why anyone has a problem with this build. Obviously its major bm but its just as obvious that no private league is going to allow this build. I for one hate bm but I always have one of these chars available just to give the pubby duelers who think they are best cause they have 5 auras on at the same time, a taste of their own medicine(wow that was a long run on sentence).
amishamigo
11-03-2004, 02:41
Hey fenris :[
Life tap cancels amp and vice versa. Having both seems kinda pointless, 'specially if you use life tap to survive.
Guided arrow no longer pierces. Your arrows do 1/4 of the damage in pvp they used to do.
3k *1/10 pvp penalty=300 *50% (dr bonus) = 150/4 blocking bonus= 37 average damage per arrow fired, assuming they have max dr and blocking (most pvp builds do nowadays)
At 7 fpa that's 3.5 attacks a second. You drain around 130 or something like that health per second with physical damage. You gain back 65 health per second with life tap.
OR you do around 260 per second with amp. That's around five seconds of nonstop firing to take out the average pvp character. That's a long time.
So basically amp and life tap won't help you allt hat much if the dueler has an ounce of talent.
Open wounds is nerfed on ranged attacks, isn't it? I thought it did like 1/10 as much. And besides, it's fairly lame anyway. Just as bad as mass poison damage, IMHO. You could use the bow that gives guided arrow to any character, stack him with open wounds, knockback, and poison and call him TEH LEET BOWAZAWN.
That last part is done quite often to create shockrangers and enchantresses nowadays.
BT-LightDash
11-03-2004, 09:46
amplify+deadly/critical strike is very deadly and maxing critical strike+ a little skills gives 70% chance of critical strike...
if u get the amplify out u do stand a good chance of killing your oppoents
but mat bows sucks in 1.09 and still sucks now imo
7 fps is overated
the faster your attack the less of a chance to be interrupted. There is only a slight difference between 7 and 8, but it can make a difference for a few people. Even if you go for a matriarchal bow doesn't mean you have to go for 7fps. The fast base speed allows for a low IAS gear setup making compensation for a lot of things easier.
Spook_Cell
12-03-2004, 02:55
In my opinion dueling is about cheapness, it's whoever can dish out the most damage the fastest and most of the time that requires either a "cheap" build or cheap equipment. If teleporting hammerdins aren't cheap I don't know what is, so I don't see why it matters if a bowazon decides to use life tap, most likely it won't help much since usely it's 1-1.5 hits to kill in most duels except for high vitality chars (barbs, vit palys)
shade449
12-03-2004, 09:21
In my opinion dueling is about cheapness, it's whoever can dish out the most damage the fastest and most of the time that requires either a "cheap" build or cheap equipment. If teleporting hammerdins aren't cheap I don't know what is, so I don't see why it matters if a bowazon decides to use life tap, most likely it won't help much since usely it's 1-1.5 hits to kill in most duels except for high vitality chars (barbs, vit palys)
What you're talking about is pubby duels, which is the reason I dont duel pubby ever. There are several private dueling leagues in which skill actually matters.
amishamigo
12-03-2004, 17:42
That last part is done quite often to create shockrangers and enchantresses nowadays.
Enchantresses use bows with exploding arrows, IIRC. You're right though, but these two have viable damage sources outside of their bow. The guided is a method of delivering potent fire or lightning damage. However his build wouldn't be that much less effective if it were used on a barb... infact the bow-barb would be more effective due to the barb's warcries and passives, and the ability to easily switch to melee mode, have full blocking, and still pull 2k+ hp's. The only downside about the barb would be a slightly slower attack speed with a bow, but open wounds doesn't need to constantly be re-triggered anyway.
They use bows with exploding arrows more often in pvm and go for guided in pvp to get definate hits. Shockrangers and enchantresses are full elemental damage attackers so they won't need high strength, dexterity or energy and can focus their builds a lot around attaining high life. I've found them quite dangerous foes, maybe even worse than the average bowazons.
You're still in your 09 mindset kirsty, this is 1.10.
Imagine if a 20k fireball sorc or 7k bone spirit necro, or even a botd char we're in 09, OMG BM!!11!!
Or a Wind Druid with 6K+ Physical Attack that hits more than once per missile? Hmmm...
Over here at Europe, most leagues have banned Life Tap Charges and Chance to Cast. If you ask me, this is two sides of a coin. On one hand, Charges or Chance to cast is great for physical attackers but there's nothing preventing a sorceress, druid or pally to get some Lower Resist or Decrepify Charges. On top of dealing a 15K hammer or a Fully Synnergised Blizzard you don't want to have a purple boiling mush over your head, lowering your resistances to... nothing...
Knockback is banned, with reason. 7-frames attack, and High AR or Guided is death for any melee class. It would be enough with a high FR/W Zon with Guided to kill most melee fighters, provided she has a good bow.
I prefer Open Wounds over Poison, as there is no real way to resist it, and the damage gets impressive at High levels. It's a real treat to use it against those casters. Unfortunately Open Wounds is only attainable through a few sources (for a Bowazon):
- Um rune
- Gore Riders
- Riphook (has slow though, and deals very little damage)
- Dracul's
Of the Above, Um rune might not be possible if you want 7-frames, and say you're using a BoTD Bow (pretty nice, even in comparison to elite rares), then you can't get that socketing in bow.
Gore Riders are impractical boots, as a Zon usually stacks high Critical Strike, and Deadly Strike and Critical can't roll at the same time. The only thing you really want there is 30% FR/W and 10% Open Wounds. I think War Trav's adds more damage than that, and has stats.
Dracul's are the only real viable way of getting Open Wounds. Not mentioning the fact that the gloves rock in every other area. The Life Tap can be seen either as a blessing or a curse (heh...curse...). I for one wouldn't feel bad about using it when matched vs. a teleing necro.
Hmm... lower resistance doesn't work for magic damage anymore, just elemental and poison.
Hmm... lower resistance doesn't work for magic damage anymore, just elemental and poison.
Decrep works though. I knew that part, that Lower and Magic now longer affects each other. If it were so, Conviction + Hammer would be all too nasty.
But charges with Iron Maiden, Decrepify, Lower Resist (for Elemental attackers) Weaken and a few other skills are pretty nasty on a class that already deals what can be classified as 1-hit kill skills for some.
I mean, in 1.09 Smiters using Life Tap were pretty much accepted in some places, because smiters were pretty underpowered back then (although they dealed nice average with an ITD attack) and Trapsins or Elemental Druids using Lower Resist charges were fairly accepted as well, since the damage were so freakin' low.
Now, using an 11K lightning sentry and Lower Resist charges, that would be plain overkill. And Decreping instead, that would be cheap...
Casters can't leech, and that's the big plus for melee. However, melee can barely leech either anymore and that puts them back a few squares since a range 3 attacks with barely no leech doesn't make it far vs. a 6K Bone Spirit. IMO, Life Tap should be allowed, and since it's only 25% chance to cast at Dracul's (and even lower at other items, like rares) it's not that big of a deal, sometimes it might not event trigger before the duel is over...
Two things:
1) When the heck did DECREPIFY start lowering magic resistance? If it does I am going to use it constantly with my bonemancer.
2) Don't forget good ol' Toothrow armor for Open wounds.
Decrepify only works for physical damage, but the bonus is that it slows your opponent giving you more opportunity to position yourself and get your hits in. I think that's what was meant..
Two things:
1) When the heck did DECREPIFY start lowering magic resistance? If it does I am going to use it constantly with my bonemancer.
2) Don't forget good ol' Toothrow armor for Open wounds.
It doesn't, but free slow target is kind of too handy, even for a guy with Holy Freeze. A necro without decrep will have a hard time vs. a guy who runs faster than his Bone Spirits. Of course, now it has been openly accepted to use walls and prisons in fights too, which was a big No-No in 1.09 for the leagues (still banned in some places though), so you might not need decrep as much...
Totally forgot about toothrow. But kind of hard to reach proper IAS Breakpoints then...
Decrepify only works for physical damage, but the bonus is that it slows your opponent giving you more opportunity to position yourself and get your hits in. I think that's what was meant..
Exactly.
And back at tl998, the entire issue was whether a poison zon, with loads of OW and %-chance to cast Life Tap would be BM or not. I just tried to make my case, that previously Charges were accepted for Casters, now they're not even necessary. Most Elemental Druids have to agree that 1.09 was hard on them, and those who went outside the Druid vs. Druid scene had to have Lower Resist charges around to deal somewhat impressive damage. Now a days, it just might have to be accepted for Melee characters to use the same kind of tricks.
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.