MS > all bow skills?

[Superhal]

After a long time observing, it appears to me that MS somehow gets around the inherent blocking in hell, and hits at or near 100% regardless of displayed AR. (base 3 slvl MS, +5 eq, buriza.)

right now, i can kill about as quickly as lvl 20 LF, even faster for smaller groups, and it's not even my main skill.

can anybody else observe this?

[Ruvanal]

It does not really get around the blocking and such. If one of the missiles is blocked or does not succeed in it to-hit check, that missile will be removed from the list of missiles on the screen but it will not prevent one of the other missiles in the volley from succeeding getting through to hit the target. Example would be if a MS volley had 3 of its arrows passing through a target, if the first missile checked misses, then there are still 2 more missiles of that volley that could interact with the target before the NextDelay factor kicks in. While you may be able to hit a target with only one of the missiles in a MS salvo, you can frequently get 2 or 3 of them to do the check for hitting/not blocked before you are left with a no-hit situation.

[Superhal]

ah, coolio! ms rules...funny how it works really well not-maxxed. :)

[simmk81]

but i wouldn't put it as ms > all bow skills since a lot of bow skills have quite comparable damage and mana consumption tradeoffs. the only differences between these skills are as difference as the grounds where their usages differ. like you can say ms and strafe are good crowd killers, however ms can deal with larger crowds at the tradeoff of high mana consumption, 3/4 weapon damage, and a per arrow per hit scenario. on the other hand, strafe may be fast and good for smaller sized groups, however, after factoring in next hit delay and chances to hit, it would seems that ga might be as able, if not, be better in hitting bosses/single moving(or stationary) target.

------
bowazons have been balanced in 1.10- not nerfed

[Superhal]

it's better because:
1. as pointed out earlier, it has a high chance of hitting (bypassing block and ar)

2. this makes it better than all other skills that require AR or can be blocked, which is all the other bow skills (with the possible exception of FA's area attack, which appears to be auto hit, but not the arrow itself.)

3. regarding mana usage, i use it to regain mana from FA.

4. GA can be blocked, so i actually leech better from ms (7 after skills) than GA (21 after skills).

i haven't made a strafer yet...it doesn't work well against large groups?

[Backdoor Bandit]

I go for strafe personally, just seems like the better skill to me. There is a decent dmg bonus and it does off-screen damage, which is not the case for MS any more.

-Backdoor Bandit

[lone_wolf]

i said it before and i say it again

ms and strafe are good skills

they are just different

ms is your everyday shotgun and strafe is your everyday m16 machine gun.

both has uses and builds can be done where you use both of them

get ms to 10 max strafe and get the other skills you want.

that said i hate not to be able to hit things in hell

thats why i have 9000+ ar for strafe and 15000+ ar for magic arrow on my zon

[PrayFor-Death]

an m16 is a rifle :)

[Omikron8]

It does not really get around the blocking and such. If one of the missiles is blocked or does not succeed in it to-hit check, that missile will be removed from the list of missiles on the screen but it will not prevent one of the other missiles in the volley from succeeding getting through to hit the target. Example would be if a MS volley had 3 of its arrows passing through a target, if the first missile checked misses, then there are still 2 more missiles of that volley that could interact with the target before the NextDelay factor kicks in. While you may be able to hit a target with only one of the missiles in a MS salvo, you can frequently get 2 or 3 of them to do the check for hitting/not blocked before you are left with a no-hit situation.

As far as i know, in patch 1.10 (or perhaps earlier) multishot was changed in that it only makes ONE hit check for the entire volley of arrows. Either this was the multishot change or something similar because it was a big deal to zon players (no NOT the fixing of GA pierce).

[lone_wolf]

an m16 is a rifle :)
well yes a fully automatic assult rifle. you get the point

[simmk81]

the check is for each arrow that passes a target. a one hit check would mean an entire volley missing altogether if the die roll is small for ar.

[Superhal]

i did a completely unscientific study last night with ms vs strafe:

(using buriza, max pierce, 20 total ias, clvl 83, slvl 7 ms, slvl 5 strafe vs zombie garden, 3 trial runs apiece per condition.)

* slvl 7 ms took more bolts to kill the same group as slvl 5 strafe, everything else equal, roughly 2.5:1, although i attributed this to the wasted arrows/aiming from MS. Also, during the test, i had to kill single monsters with ms, where i generally use GA.

* strafe took longer, timewise, than MS.

* strafing, i took more damage than MS.

* each strafe arrow is less likely to pierce all the way through the group compared to an ms volley. less overall damage, perhaps? per strafe volley, i seldom saw any arrows make it all the way through the group, while out of 11 arrows per ms volley, 3-4 always made it through.

* never saw my mana ball move during strafe, even on a single monster.

my conclusions:
ms kills faster and safer than strafe.

[JoJeck]

Superhal, in the situation of Nihilak's Temple MS would be better than Strafe as it would if you used it against Cows. The number of targets are great for MS to kill efficently. But there are too many targets for strafe to be effective, it works better with groups of 3 to 7 and gets quite weak when there are more than 12 targets or so. Strafe is a good way to clear the Pit with a Merc and Valk to pin the monsters as they tend to come in small groups strafe can handle easilly.

Most amazons are using Strafe in 1.10 but MS can be made into an effective way to clear large numbers of monsters very fast if you can solve the problems of heavy mana consumption. This mana loss can be bad when shooting at things you can't leech from (i.e. Skeletons or PIs). Also you need a mana efficient way to deal with single targets and bosses.

Your original points on using many arrows to overcome target blocking and less need for AR are perfectly correct at close ranges and give MS an advantage ... just like a shotgun. But this advantage falls off rapidly with distance as the arrows fan out and only one hits per target.
I think my next Amazon might use MS rather than strafe as I fancy the challenge of building a different zon, and having one that is good in other areas of the game.

[Ruvanal]

As far as i know, in patch 1.10 (or perhaps earlier) multishot was changed in that it only makes ONE hit check for the entire volley of arrows. Either this was the multishot change or something similar because it was a big deal to zon players (no NOT the fixing of GA pierce).
The change that you are referring to was done in an earlier patch. That was when the Multishot missiles were changed to have a NextHit-NextDelay factor to prevent more than one at a time from interacting with a single target. This was also the point at which Strafe also got its NextHit-NextDelay factor, but it was unrealised since that part of the information was hidden inside some DLL internal tables that are difficult to access. Those that did not understand what had been done to the game, assumed that this was a change to make it only a one to-hit check per volley per target; but that is not how th egame actually handles the situation.

When you use the multishot skill, it will generate a set of several missiles that are on slightly different trajectories. Each of these missile is a individual item in the game with a copy of the damage parameters to use and a tag to indicate who fired them (for some look-up information when hitting, like who to credit the damage/kill with or look up the mf%). At this point the missiles are leaving the bow and as far as the code for handling the various objects in the game (like missiles, monster, rocks, trees, doors, characters, etc.) it does not 'know' which missile comes from which volley, only the character of origin. To the game it does not matter if multiple missiles are from the the smae volley or not when processing the attacks, it just matters how to handle multiple missiles that have NextDelay factor on them. Until one of the missiles actually damages the target, the NextDelay 'tag' is not applied, which will allow multiple missiles to each 'attempt' to process in such a way that they could hit the target.

[Shadoway]

i did a completely unscientific study last night with ms vs strafe:

(using buriza, max pierce, 20 total ias, clvl 83, slvl 7 ms, slvl 5 strafe vs zombie garden, 3 trial runs apiece per condition.)

* slvl 7 ms took more bolts to kill the same group as slvl 5 strafe, everything else equal, roughly 2.5:1, although i attributed this to the wasted arrows/aiming from MS. Also, during the test, i had to kill single monsters with ms, where i generally use GA.

* strafe took longer, timewise, than MS.

* strafing, i took more damage than MS.

* each strafe arrow is less likely to pierce all the way through the group compared to an ms volley. less overall damage, perhaps? per strafe volley, i seldom saw any arrows make it all the way through the group, while out of 11 arrows per ms volley, 3-4 always made it through.

* never saw my mana ball move during strafe, even on a single monster.

my conclusions:
ms kills faster and safer than strafe.


Don't even talk about strafe if you don't have it maxed.

[Superhal]

Don't even talk about strafe if you don't have it maxed.

which makes MS even MORE attractive. :)

[simmk81]

pardon the possible rudeness but for once i would really like to see you run tight places like pit, spider lair, maggot lair and see whether your opinion of ms would be discounted. Ms is good yes, effective as a main skill, can be... but ms > all other bow skills? everything is balanced is some way. Can ms fire elemental arrows? can ms fire guided missiles? can ma deal magic damage? of course, pitting ms in terms of damage versus most of these skills is a joke. How then against ga and strafe? circumstances-wise and especially in the highly debated pvp. ms > strafe? ms > ga? i think the previous posters have painted a clear picture.

[Freyas]

I don't think that you can reach a conclusion such as MS > all other bow skills. If you are going for pure damage, I will take FA versus your multishot anyday.... so long as it isn't against cold immunes. An amazon setup based around Freezing Arrow can do far more damage than any of the physical skills. The only drawback is that cold immunes are more common than physical immunes in many areas of the game.

Multishot outperforms strafe in damage against crowds of monsters- that has always been the case. However, against smaller groups, strafe does just as much or more damage. Strafe is useful both against groups of monsters and against single targets, while multi really isn't that great for single targets or small groups.

As for the argument that strafe isn't as good as multi because strafe gets much better with higher levels of the skill is not very relevant. If you use multishot, you will want a skill to use for killing bosses. This skill is probably going to be guided arrow, which most people will max for the increased damage and reduced mana cost. However, strafe is not much worse than guided arrow for killing a single target, and not much worse than multishot against larger groups of monsters. Strafe is a very versatile skill, where as multishot and guided arrow are much more specialized. If you're going for one amazon skill to use in every situation, strafe would be the best. If you're going for the most physical damage output over time, multishot will win out, at least if you're fighting in a crowded area, such as the cow level. If you're going for pure damage over time, a well-synergized FA or exploding arrow with a fast bow and 100% piercing can do the best.

All this being said, I don't think that the amazon has any one "best" bow skill.... they all have their own uses in different situations. Each skill has their own strengths and weaknesses, and each will excell in certain situations. While it might be rediculous to use magic arrow to clean out the cow level, it's equally rediculous to clear out the arcane sanctuary with multishot. Not that it's necessarily impossible to do either of these things, but there are better skills that you can use for these situations that will work much better.

[Llankukto]

Has anyone noticed that knockback applies to strafe but not MS? That makes a 2 frame strafe with knockback really good at keeping pressure off a valk/merc.

[hittitian]

Has anyone noticed that knockback applies to strafe but not MS? That makes a 2 frame strafe with knockback really good at keeping pressure off a valk/merc.

Really? It was working for multi in 1.09, but I actually didn't try it in 1.10. Someone answer this.

[FattyMcGee]

Really? It was working for multi in 1.09, but I actually didn't try it in 1.10. Someone answer this.

yes it's true, knockback does NOT work with multishot in 1.10, but it does still work with strafe. That was one of the "nerfs" they did for amazons in 1.10.

--fatty

[sir goatscelot]

So to sum up: Each skill has its own situational use.., neither is greater than the other :) Most old vets know this.

[Ruvanal]

yes it's true, knockback does NOT work with multishot in 1.10, but it does still work with strafe. That was one of the "nerfs" they did for amazons in 1.10.

--fatty
Actually I just tried it and the knockback was working with multishot just as I remember it from the last few weeks of play. It does look like the chance to do the knockback may have been lowered in the v1.10 patch though. I would typically need to hit the targets with an average of 3 to 5 salvos before I would see the effect on some of them. Needless to say it would be easier to see the effect with Strafe since you could get those 3 to 5 hits in on a target in a fraction of the time it would take using multishot.

[Salo]

Actually I just tried it and the knockback was working with multishot just as I remember it from the last few weeks of play. It does look like the chance to do the knockback may have been lowered in the v1.10 patch though. I would typically need to hit the targets with an average of 3 to 5 salvos before I would see the effect on some of them. Needless to say it would be easier to see the effect with Strafe since you could get those 3 to 5 hits in on a target in a fraction of the time it would take using multishot.

hi. this is an older thread by a little. and im going to comment on this.... having maxed strafe on non ladder, i have to say that most missles do not hit that single target.

guided is MUCH better for a single target. Massively so. and multi will ALWAYS hit the single target, and it espeically good if you are using things like Cblow or poison or big elemental charms of course. bah. i want to make a non ladder massive tweaked FA zon, but i cant decide between the two, multi or strafe. (as my other posts attempt to figure on as well)

[Omikron8]

Guided Arrow simply has no chance compared to strafe in boss/single target killing in 1.10. It no longer pierces and strafe EVEN with next delay (some arrows are guaranteed to miss) will rip apart bosses far more quickly. A random example, lets say that you land 4 of your 7 minimum arrows in strafe against a single target at 2 fps. Those arrows were released far faster and in greater quantity than for example one guided arrow shot at 7 or 8 fps.

[Salo]

Guided Arrow simply has no chance compared to strafe in boss/single target killing in 1.10. It no longer pierces and strafe EVEN with next delay (some arrows are guaranteed to miss) will rip apart bosses far more quickly. A random example, lets say that you land 4 of your 7 minimum arrows in strafe against a single target at 2 fps. Those arrows were released far faster and in greater quantity than for example one guided arrow shot at 7 or 8 fps.

you cant leech off of baal without lifetap. i mean... like sitting there and strafing it.... yeah great way to have no mana and no life in a few seconds.
at least with GA I could back off from it for a good distance, enough to make him sit there and veg. also, you can sit behind the pillars for Mephisto and he cannot hurt you with his ball or his lightning. shrugs.

im building right now and dont have time enough to make another zon if this one fails... i want it to be pit running as well as baal running. my ladder version of an eaglehorn using strafer with very good gear was PATHETIC in slowness for killing. i almost snapped my mouse button holding it down while she rotted dinking off tiny amounts of damage.

[Kugel]

First of all Eaglehorn sux ***..., second of all strafe get much better with higher levels.
That means you need to spend 20 points on in whereas on the multishot side you dont need that many points, but you still HAVE to spend points on GA, that means MS +GA take more skill points than strafe. And as you get higher IAS, the strafe-lock disadvantage becomes less and less important. Overall i thing Strafe is much more universal skill than MS and better suited for all-around zon's...for soloing or so. On the other hand if you really want to mass killer go for synergetized FA zon. only problem are cold immuness so this would be nice nice party zon. And baal runs: you cant leech anyway so you're gonna need those mana potions anyway and AFAIK when you run away from baal, he either duplictes or cast those nasty things that beat you up ;)

[Salo]

First of all Eaglehorn sux ***..., second of all strafe get much better with higher levels.
That means you need to spend 20 points on in whereas on the multishot side you dont need that many points, but you still HAVE to spend points on GA, that means MS +GA take more skill points than strafe. And as you get higher IAS, the strafe-lock disadvantage becomes less and less important. Overall i thing Strafe is much more universal skill than MS and better suited for all-around zon's...for soloing or so. On the other hand if you really want to mass killer go for synergetized FA zon. only problem are cold immuness so this would be nice nice party zon. And baal runs: you cant leech anyway so you're gonna need those mana potions anyway and AFAIK when you run away from baal, he either duplictes or cast those nasty things that beat you up ;)


i think i would choose strafe if it had a better than 80% chance to hit without pumping Penetrate, but alas, it doesnt not seem to be the case. a tough call. and yes, eaglehorn does suck. shaeld non upgraded high end GSA can do more wonders than that thing. i think it was an ok option in 109. 1.10 pit running is sad with it +strafe.

i mean it took a LONG TIME to clear it, if I could even at 78th level with good good gear.

[Shanksie1337]

"you cant leech off of baal without lifetap. i mean... like sitting there and strafing it.... yeah great way to have no mana and no life in a few seconds."

that is very wrong :D

true you can't leech of baal - but with strafe you CAN leech of the little tentacle thingies that are all over his throneroom, so when i baal run i never use any potions when killing baal as the strafe will aim some arrows at baal (no leech) and some at the tentacles (leech), and as there is 1 baal, and multiple tentacles you will leech more than u use.

[bard]

I've always used MS and Strafe on the same builds. I use MS for close-crowds of monsters coming in one direction and I use Strafe for spread out monsters (like act 3). I use guided for picking off the boss/unique that is hiding in a pack, especially if he keeps trying to summon help.

That said, MS is a no-brainer skill. You can just spam it and get results, whereas strafe is more skill and equipment dependant and with practice is an awesome killer.

Magic Arrow seems to be the new wonder skill in 1.10, especially against PI's and mana-leaching mobs.

I don't think the Amazon was ever designed to be a one skilled wonder, she is designed to be far more balanced than most other classes and there is no real reason not to use a couple of core skills, like MS, Strafe and FA in the same build.

[mgill1772]

i prefer multi over strafe but u have to have might merc and good gear or it isnt effective, imo. i like it mostly cuz i dont have to max it, with that said i dont play pure bow and never kill bosses with bow cept maybe andy cuz she a wuss and the tainted in there are light immunes

[Liessa Wyrmbane]

my ladder version of an eaglehorn using strafer with very good gear was PATHETIC in slowness for killing. i almost snapped my mouse button holding it down while she rotted dinking off tiny amounts of damage.

I don't understand why your strafer was so bad. I mean, I have a pure Strafer with base vita and all dex using an upgraded Witchwild String in hardcore ladder. She's now a Guardian and has been soloed all the way. I have NO trouble killing stuff in hell Act 5. For example, Hell Ancients were quite easy.

Regards,
Liessa

[Apologetix]

well yes a fully automatic assult rifle. you get the point

i know this is off topic.. but m16 isnt a fully automatic assault rifle. it used to be in the early years of the vietnam war but was changed in the middle of it. the reason is because if a grunt was out on patrols and he saw something move and fired, the whole clip would be exhausted in a few seconds. that was bad, so they changed it to 1-2 shot burts per squeeze.

[durph]

I have a pure Strafer with base vita and all dex using an upgraded Witchwild String in hardcore ladder.

Whate are the stats on upgraded Witchwild String and is it fast?

[Liessa Wyrmbane]

Whate are the stats on upgraded Witchwild String and is it fast?
Damage 87-106, speed [0], 90% IAS needed for 9/2 Strafe. The best bow there is :)

[Salo]

Damage 87-106, speed [0], 90% IAS needed for 9/2 Strafe. The best bow there is :)

well, see i should get and make one of these bad boys.

right now i am on non ladder but i would enjoy going back to ladder to get some of the ladder only stuff, like a reapers, upp'd WWS and a blood ravens charge. i have other stuff i wanted, but still a couple of pieces missing from my wish list.

the eaglehorn sucked for pit running compared to skeleton warrior/mages/ce necro. thats a bad sign. and he didnt do it all that fast.

WWS takes care of res all, amp on a boss, magic arrow, speed, and looks pretty.

[Omikron8]

Damage 87-106, speed [0], 90% IAS needed for 9/2 Strafe. The best bow there is :)

My my someone who isn't rabid about windforce and breath of the farting bows and actually looks at something past the maximum damage of the weapon. Wow i thought i was the only one :)

[mgill1772]

if u had a wf and and up'd wws u would honestly pick wws, doubt it

[Salo]

if u had a wf and and up'd wws u would honestly pick wws, doubt it

ah... well.. here goes this:

if you have all the res you need, the ias you need, and the amp for a boss (2% is not what i want for groups, atmas better), all you need is some life leech and a steelskull for both leeches, you could wear whatever gear you wanted to and be in positives for res all without much fuss. upp'd WWS is also the weapon of choice for Ranger druids and odd classes using a bow. the 2 shael placement is sweet. I am going to get a nice one, up it, and then wait for ladder to collapse and 40/15% it to pimp it out.

might be a waste to some but i think it would be schweeet.

[Liessa Wyrmbane]

if u had a wf and and up'd wws u would honestly pick wws, doubt it
I would (and did) pick WWS over WF any day of the week.

[mgill1772]

admirable, but still falls so short of wf imo, how do u knockback and kill past a3, ive used that bow and it just doesnt have it imo. can that zon play thur all areas effectively, if it can u are a great player. imo wf cant be touched but i have yet to try HoJ.

[Liessa Wyrmbane]

admirable, but still falls so short of wf imo, how do u knockback and kill past a3, ive used that bow and it just doesnt have it imo. can that zon play thur all areas effectively, if it can u are a great player. imo wf cant be touched but i have yet to try HoJ.
When it comes to raw damage WF is superior to WWS, there's no denying that. But the difference is lower than one would think (WF has pitiful min damage). My strafer is build and optimized to use WWS and well, she rocks. She's now lvl 84 and she kills just fine in all areas in Hell. Oh, and keep in mind that I'm playing hardcore so she obviously hasn't died yet.

[mgill1772]

good job on the hardcore lvl 84, i dont play hardcore as i play fast carelessly at times, in the hardest areas and id hate to lose my hard earned toys. yer a pro... btw wf avg damage is like 270 on a lvl 90, what is wws 100 even?

[Shanksie1337]

I am going to get a nice one, up it, and then wait for ladder to collapse and 40/15% it to pimp it out.

might be a waste to some but i think it would be schweeet.


lol that exactly what i did, i found a perfect 170 ED, it's been upgraded and i am awaiting selling it when L ends

As for WF's poor min, charms solve that problem. pdsc's are especially useful as they are cheaper than +min with good mod sc's.

[Omikron8]

admirable, but still falls so short of wf imo, how do u knockback and kill past a3, ive used that bow and it just doesnt have it imo. can that zon play thur all areas effectively, if it can u are a great player. imo wf cant be touched but i have yet to try HoJ.

Take your words and shove them right back up your ***. Are people so stupid that they only look at maximum damage? Witchwild string guarantees double damage at high levels so that puts the bow at around 180-210 damage already. To achieve constant double damage with windforce you need a critical strike around 60% (WWS needs one point) AND highlords at a high level of critical strike (high character level) as well as probably goreriders. Not to mention that you also have to spend lots of points in penetrate as windforce has no attack rating bonus (WWS doesn't either but it doesn't require mass critical strike). This damage is then doubled (approximately, some enemies have physical resistance) AGAIN when amp triggers which is often with high pierce (razortail) and strafe.

There are people who aren't swimming in resistance charms/chains of honor armors/whatever so +40 resistances are quite impressive to them.

The bow also requires 30 less IAS to achieve a 2 frame strafe so there are more damage options right there.

Just so that you don't say "prove it" my zon is level 93 on west ladder and has been using upgraded WWS since her 70's and can solo ANY part of the game with her might merc and valk at ANY amount of players in the game. I only do 850-1250 listed strafe damage but most of that is doubled with near 100% double damage and then doubled again when amp triggers which it does quickly.

[Liessa Wyrmbane]

Take your words and shove them right back up your ***. Are people so stupid that they only look at maximum damage? Witchwild string guarantees double damage at high levels so that puts the bow at around 180-210 damage already. To achieve constant double damage with windforce you need a critical strike around 60% (WWS needs one point) AND highlords at a high level of critical strike (high character level) as well as probably goreriders. Not to mention that you also have to spend lots of points in penetrate as windforce has no attack rating bonus (WWS doesn't either but it doesn't require mass critical strike). This damage is then doubled (approximately, some enemies have physical resistance) AGAIN when amp triggers which is often with high pierce (razortail) and strafe.

There are people who aren't swimming in resistance charms/chains of honor armors/whatever so +40 resistances are quite impressive to them.

The bow also requires 30 less IAS to achieve a 2 frame strafe so there are more damage options right there.

Just so that you don't say "prove it" my zon is level 93 on west ladder and has been using upgraded WWS since her 70's and can solo ANY part of the game with her might merc and valk at ANY amount of players in the game. I only do 850-1250 listed strafe damage but most of that is doubled with near 100% double damage and then doubled again when amp triggers which it does quickly.
Amen! Well said, Omikron8 - my thoughts EXACTLY!

ps. Do you use Demonlimb on switch for AR like I do or have you maxed Penetrate? My zon has 10700 AR with Demonlimb now at lvl 85 and I was wondering is there any point to sunk my unused points to Penetrate (now at base lvl 1).

[Omikron8]

Amen! Well said, Omikron8 - my thoughts EXACTLY!

ps. Do you use Demonlimb on switch for AR like I do or have you maxed Penetrate? My zon has 10700 AR with Demonlimb now at lvl 85 and I was wondering is there any point to sunk my unused points to Penetrate (now at base lvl 1).

I have around 450 dex and a few AR charms and with max penetrate (level 22) i have around 9950 strafe AR at my level (93) which gives me 85% or higher to hit everything.

[simmk81]

you cant leech off of baal without lifetap. i mean... like sitting there and strafing it.... yeah great way to have no mana and no life in a few seconds.
at least with GA I could back off from it for a good distance, enough to make him sit there and veg. also, you can sit behind the pillars for Mephisto and he cannot hurt you with his ball or his lightning. shrugs.

im building right now and dont have time enough to make another zon if this one fails... i want it to be pit running as well as baal running. my ladder version of an eaglehorn using strafer with very good gear was PATHETIC in slowness for killing. i almost snapped my mouse button holding it down while she rotted dinking off tiny amounts of damage.
used strafe like hell on boss packs and mana never even drop below half with my stealskull unless he's doing the mana burn attack. are you sure you didn't leech him right?

[Omikron8]

The thing that people seem to forget is that baal has a 55% chance to block in hell. This coupled with his very high level and defense means that your chances of hitting consistently are not....great. This means that to you it may seem like you are not leeching a lot (you can leech from him but not mephisto) but the truth is that your attacks are simply not connecting.

[mgill1772]

thats great u got to lvl 93 but wf is still better, hey buddy i got all my stuff thru trading diablo items and runes so if i could do it so can they. im talkin about finding the very best and imo wf is the very best, ive tried up'd wws and i was faster in wf, also so what if u aren't at 100 % deadly strike, i use highlord and prolly got a lvl 9 critical strike, prolly 3 hard points so that is like 70% double damage, not bad for 3 points. u have amp on yer bow, well my merc uses decrep, that half amps potentcy correct. so im pretty sure that damage is at least equivalent in many case far far exceeding wws. to wws credit its a great lvling bow and the resist cant be denied, im just sayin i play faster in wf, but i dont play pure bower and if i did i still wouldnt use wws still, procing (diablo name for when can items curse and such, amp damage in this situation) interupts firing and some bowers dislike this, not my guff with amta or wws but it is somes. so u can use yer wws and i will use my wf and titans, wanna race? :drink:

quick recap
wws 180-210 avg 195 with DS
avg wf 270 no DS, so u say min on wf is too low half of those are one 100 well great then the other half are 400

[Salo]

The thing that people seem to forget is that baal has a 55% chance to block in hell. This coupled with his very high level and defense means that your chances of hitting consistently are not....great. This means that to you it may seem like you are not leeching a lot (you can leech from him but not mephisto) but the truth is that your attacks are simply not connecting.


check that out!

im using a dual leech ring, a raven, and a st.skull. it would seem that the chance to hit is the problem along with...

You know, there isnt much lost in losing like some stat points to Energy. I made a new, now non ladder strafer to test people's love for it once more.

I have found at level 50 that like 20 pts into energy gives my character the ability to strafe a few more times without needing to leech any mana. something one needs vs skeletons and bosses like baal. also, im going more life than most people seem to have. (i see people with less than 100 vit, thats a glass cannon with no res in hell using a wf)

I am also attempting to forego Valkyrie :)

yes, you heard right, I dont have evade, I have decent points into Avoid, i have a nice +3 passive 35% mf ammy, and well, I dodge spells in a sick way and never get locked while running. its rather fantastic. I use a Might merc with Delerium hat, ethereal amned SPire of honour, and Chains of honour on him. he just sits there and pummels stuff while knock back the crowds.

I am noticing that placing 3-4 pts into multi is a nice idea, and I can probably put 10 points into it cuz im not using Valk. i need about 9 pts just to do valk. eh. not worth it. slow missle is good so im getting that when i hit hell, Avoid is the sickest skill any class could hope for (besides natural resistance on a barb). 1% increase in it is equal to or greater than a 1% increase in res all, chance to get hit defense wise, and chance to block.

well here is my build, and it gear dependent... althout what zon isnt!! (just a bit pricey at times)

1230 Dusk Enigma
WF with ahem, legit, yeah, 40/15% - no wws on non-ladder yet...
Shael'd Kuko for shooting Frozen arrows.... sick bow for this skill.
LoH and Lavagouts (depends on area and level)
Nos Coil
Shako with 15% ias, +13% res all jewel (use this hat for a lot of my guys)
+3 passive +35% MF ammy
Ravenfrost
Plaguemaster - yeah yeah i know....
49 WT's
bunch of res charms with strong mods, bunch of 100pdsc 7%mf, well 6
2 Passive gc's with mods
2 Bow skill gc's with cold mods
some 10-11 max gc's

now, its all not yet in place, as im only 50th.... but it seems like it cant go wrong gear wise.

SKillZ:
20 Cold Arrow
20 Frozen Arrow - yes, i like it when it gives me 1700+ Frozen damage!
20 Strafe
7 into Multi
5 Crit
10 Penetrate (i have a lot of skills making it 19th level)
3 Pierce = 75% (this might change, but kuko does the FA so might not)
4 Avoid = 60%
1 dodge = 47%
1 in inner sight, 1 in slow missles, both spammed on herd boards for an edge.

the greatness of no valkerie!

[mgill1772]

i loved plague master and ravenspirals on non, i wish i had found one as good on ladder this is my best so far:

viper circle
8 ll
6 ml
9 str
3 FR
3 LR
10 CR
26 PR

[Salo]

i loved plague master and ravenspirals on non, i wish i had found one as good on ladder this is my best so far:

viper circle
8 ll
6 ml
9 str
3 FR
3 LR
10 CR
26 PR


thats a sick ring dood :)

[Omikron8]

thats great u got to lvl 93 but wf is still better, hey buddy i got all my stuff thru trading diablo items and runes so if i could do it so can they. im talkin about finding the very best and imo wf is the very best, ive tried up'd wws and i was faster in wf, also so what if u aren't at 100 % deadly strike, i use highlord and prolly got a lvl 9 critical strike, prolly 3 hard points so that is like 70% double damage, not bad for 3 points. u have amp on yer bow, well my merc uses decrep, that half amps potentcy correct. so im pretty sure that damage is at least equivalent in many case far far exceeding wws. to wws credit its a great lvling bow and the resist cant be denied, im just sayin i play faster in wf, but i dont play pure bower and if i did i still wouldnt use wws still, procing (diablo name for when can items curse and such, amp damage in this situation) interupts firing and some bowers dislike this, not my guff with amta or wws but it is somes. so u can use yer wws and i will use my wf and titans, wanna race? :drink:

quick recap
wws 180-210 avg 195 with DS
avg wf 270 no DS, so u say min on wf is too low half of those are one 100 well great then the other half are 400

Alright lets see

- The difference between 70% DS and near 100% DS is huge in damage over time and such a difference is critical for a skill like strafe that unleashes many rapid low damage shots.

- Amp damage does NOT interrupt your strafe but triggers such as fist of heavens on goldstrike WILL interrupt your strafe because that spell has a timer.

- Windforce is simply too random in its damage because of its enormous damage range. I love having a constant minimum damage over 1000 instead of hitting a monster for lets say 200 damage and then hitting it for 3000.

- As for your previous post (not this one i am replying to) knockback is not necessary on a bowazon if you have half a brain and position your valk/merc correctly. Cold damage on charms (even just one works well with rapid strafe shots) can easily supplement nearly the same effect as knockback on enemies.

[Salo]

well, im totally disagreeing with 1/4 second cold damage! and thats at low resists.

try FA=2, Ravenfrost 4, 4 charms with cold ='s 2.5 seconds. just barely enough time to get around things, but it works. straight shooting ='s 2 seconds chill, 1.5 on highly resistant monsters.

magezon takes care of this nicely of course with frostburns, a few more cold mods on charms and a tested etlich.

deadly strike 100% does however make a big difference. I would never bother getting it to 100% as it would lower mf either in boots, hat or in ammy, all good mf spots. 85% ds and 61% crit strike probably would be decent enough to get it trigger most of the time.

I also think that WWS upped is the perfect weapon only if you have giant skull equipped or mf/kb gloves, and some good max/ar charms. then it would be more consistent and easy to get 9/2. (gskull is sexy)