Avengers and Runewords: What of it?

[GatoMuerto]

I am playing the 1-pt Vengance, max resist skills Avenger, and am looking towards endgame and what types of weapons are available. I have the Horizon's Tornado, Nord's, Demonlimb, and Lightsaber, but am interested in trying out one of the runewords just to set myself apart from everyone else. I am rather poor (got all my items from "pity donations") so don't have a huge supply of runes to just toss and play with (ladder). I am trying to pick just one of them but was hoping others have already done the "testing" work for me.

The following are the ones under consideration:
Beast:
Level 9 Fanaticism Aura When Equipped
+40% Increased Attack Speed
+240-270% Enhanced Damage (varies)
20% Chance of Crushing Blow
25% Chance of Open Wounds
+3 To Werebear
+3 To Lycanthropy
Prevent Monster Heal
+25-40 To Strength (varies)
+10 To Energy
+2 To Mana After Each Kill
Level 13 Summon Grizzly (5 Charges)

Doom
5% Chance To Cast Level 18 Volcano On Striking
Level 12 Holy Freeze Aura When Equipped
+2 To All Skills
+45% Increased Attack Speed
+330-370% Enhanced Damage (varies)
-(40-60)% To Enemy Cold Resistance (varies)
20% Deadly Strike
25% Chance of Open Wounds
Prevent Monster Heal
Freezes Target +3
Requirements -20%

Famine
+30% Increased Attack Speed
+320-370% Enhanced Damage (varies)
Ignore Target's Defense
Adds 180-200 Magic Damage
Adds 50-200 Fire Damage
Adds 51-250 Lightning Damage
Adds 50-200 Cold Damage
12% Life Stolen Per Hit
Prevent Monster Heal
+10 To Strength

Hand of Justice
100% Chance To Cast Level 36 Blaze When You Level-Up
100% Chance To Cast Level 48 Meteor When You Die
Level 16 Holy Fire Aura When Equipped
+33% Increased Attack Speed
+280-330% Enhanced Damage
Ignore Target's Defense
7% Life Stolen Per Hit
-20% To Enemy Fire Resistance
20% Deadly Strike
Hit Blinds Target
Freezes Target +3

[GatoMuerto]

Beast has the fanat aura, which would be interesting to stack ontop of conviction/vengeance, but is the pure %ED that you miss made up for with the fanat aura? I do want speed (main problem I have so far with veng), just wondering on other's experience with it.

Doom would allow me to get rid of the holy freeze merc I am currently using, and the PMH is great, freeing up another equipt slot (using that belt, cant remember which one), but is the -cold resist superflurous with conviction?

Famine also has great damage added, which is added to with conviction, and seems to be the best overall with it's set of stats, but not sure.

Hand of Justice was the last one, just because it was the fire version of doom, with better damage. I don't like the "when level up/ when die" abilities, though. ITD is fun, although once again conviction makes that rather... unneeded.

On top of that, if you have used one of the following with an Avenger, can you mention what TYPE of weapon it was in? IE scourge, berzerker axe, ect.

[Loboleal]

Let's make a simple analisy taking a Berserker Axe as base weapon for all that Runeword and let's see the elemental damage output for each one before Conviction:

Berserker Axe: 47.5 Avg dmg.
1 pt in Vengeance, 20 in each Resist aura (+270% * 3 Elem damage)

Beast:
47.5 * 3.7 = 175.75
175.75 * 2.7 = 474.5 * 3 = 1423.5
Total elemental avg damage: 1423.5
9 fpa (20% more IAS to reach 8 fpa attack)
Total elemental avg damage per second = 1423.5 * 2.7 = 3843.45

Doom:
47.5 * 4.7 = 223.25
223.25 * 2.7 = 602.7 * 3 = 1808.3
87.5 * 4 = 350 (Level 12 Holy Freeze with 20 in its synergy)
Total elemental avg damage: 1808.3 + 350 = 2158.3
11 fpa (110% more IAS to reach 8 fpa attack)
Total elemental avg damage per second = 2158.3 * 2.2 = 4748.3

Famine:
47.5 * 4.7 = 223.25
223.25 * 2.7 = 602.7 * 3 = 1808.3
190+125+150+125 = 590 (Famine's inherit elemental damage)
Total elemental avg damage: 1808.3 + 590 = 2398.3
12 fpa (125% more IAS to reach 8 fpa attack)
Total elemental avg damage per second = 2398.3 * 2 = 4796.6

Hand of Justice:
47.5 * 4.3 = 204.25
204.25 * 2.7 = 551.5 * 3 = 1654.4
89 * 4.6 = 409.4 (Level 16 Holy Fire with 20 in its synergy)
Total elemental avg damage: 1654.4 + 409.4 = 2063.8
11 fpa (122% more IAS to reach 8 fpa attack)
Total elemental avg damage per second = 2063.8 * 2.2 = 4540.4


As you can see, Famine has better potential damage. But you can do this with other weapons (faster ones like War Spike) to see differences. I did it with a BA because it is the most damaging 1 handed weapon with better damage/speed ratio available for all that runewords.

[Amiral]

... are you able to checkd dmg with 8 fpa at beast? since thats brobably the speed you'll aim at if it only needs 20% exra ias...

[Loboleal]

... are you able to checkd dmg with 8 fpa at beast? since thats brobably the speed you'll aim at if it only needs 20% exra ias...
1423.5 * 3.1 = 4412.8
It's close to others, but Famine can reach its second next break point (10 fpa) with 25% more IAS, so I think is still winning :)

[slam]

do those calculations include the physical damgage you would be doing in addition to the elemental damage?


what would be the best total damage for physical + elemental damage - can we include unique's in these calculations to get a true idea of greatest avenger weapon

[Loboleal]

do those calculations include the physical damgage you would be doing in addition to the elemental damage?


what would be the best total damage for physical + elemental damage - can we include unique's in these calculations to get a true idea of greatest avenger weapon

For an Avenger, its physical damage doesn't count too much since it only gets multiplied by his strenth (no Aura for enhancing his physical damage)

However you can easily add it. Its the first number calculated. In other words, the weapon listed damage:
Beast: 175.75 Avg damage
Doom: 223.25 Avg damage
Famine: 223.25 Avg damage
HoJ: 204.25 Avg damage

Famine still wins :D

[sputnik78]

For an Avenger, its physical damage doesn't count too much since it only gets multiplied by his strenth (no Aura for enhancing his physical damage)

However you can easily add it. Its the first number calculated. In other words, the weapon listed damage:
Beast: 175.75 Avg damage
Doom: 223.25 Avg damage
Famine: 223.25 Avg damage
HoJ: 204.25 Avg damage

Famine still wins :D


Yes, but doesn't Beast multiply the physical due to fanaticism? And that multiplier then helps leeching... and leeching life is very important.

[Loboleal]

Yes, but doesn't Beast multiply the physical due to fanaticism? And that multiplier then helps leeching... and leeching life is very important.
Opss, yes I forgot it.
Lvl 9 Fanaticism: +186% ED so:
175.75 * 2.86 = 502.65 Avg damage.

Beast wins in physical damage (as expected), but still, that is a very little damage to try to leech from it. Taking into account chars strengh, let's say about 200, you can raise your physical damage up to about 900 Avg damage.
A 15% ll setup would leech 5% of 900 (1/3 leech penalty in Hell). 45 hit points every 8 frames (your best attack speed) is not too much to stay alive.
Elemental chars are not spected to leech too much, so I would aim for maxing elemental damage.
More elemental damage = Less time a monsters can hit you = Less life you'll lose. :D

[slam]

now i see why an avenger needs so much leech.

say you had two weapons, one that did 60 to 90 physical damage and another that did say 20 to 30 of each elemental damage (60 to 90 total). what one would be the winner? i guess i'm basically asking if you should look for high elemental damage or high physical damage for an avenger weapon.

[Loboleal]

now i see why an avenger needs so much leech.

say you had two weapons, one that did 60 to 90 physical damage and another that did say 20 to 30 of each elemental damage (60 to 90 total). what one would be the winner? i guess i'm basically asking if you should look for high elemental damage or high physical damage for an avenger weapon.
You should always aim for elemental damage since your main aura (Conviction) only enhances elemental damage (lowering monster's resistances)

[Rius666]

i still think the best avenger weapon in the game is definitely famine. Its got enough phy ed to keep up with most other weps. But more importantly its got the most massive total elemental dmg of any weapon in the game (not including set weps like ik maul with full set) and elemental dmg is what ur going for with an avenger

[GatoMuerto]

Woo! I was almost going to give up hope on this question. ^_^ Glad that there are people who are inclined enough to work out the particulars.

The numbers are great, and gives a good indication of which ones to use. The resulting numbers are close, with famine and beast being my top two choices. I'll do a little more soul-searching (as well as an eye on the trade areas) to see which one I can afford sooner.

Crushing blow, and the party-friendly fanat was the deciding factor for beast, and the pure damage/ leech for famine.

[danc133]

Just my $.02 but one other factor besides overall damage putting famine in front but the added 12% LL. You can't have too much leech on an avenger in hell. The CB is easy to obtain for example goreriders. The other thing at only lvl9 the fanat aura is only about 12 yards so isn't as much a party issue either.

First round is on me! :drink: :buddies:

[Cod]

Crushing blow, and the party-friendly fanat was the deciding factor for beast, and the pure damage/ leech for famine.

in all honesty, if it's crushing blow you want, i'd go with famine and get your crushing blow from other sources. famine's got two things that are very nice in my opinion: prevent monster heal and ignore target defence. i agree, beast would be very nice, but think about massive elemental damage from venegance, monsters don't regenerate, nice leech, and ignoring the target's defence, all adds up to a nice monster killing machine.

[GatoMuerto]

in all honesty, if it's crushing blow you want, i'd go with famine and get your crushing blow from other sources. famine's got two things that are very nice in my opinion: prevent monster heal and ignore target defence. i agree, beast would be very nice, but think about massive elemental damage from venegance, monsters don't regenerate, nice leech, and ignoring the target's defence, all adds up to a nice monster killing machine.

LoL. I was saying both famine and beast were fun choices. If you have a spare gore riders laying around, I'll be glad to take it off your hands (/pity mode on) since I am rather poor (/pity mode off), but as it stands I have to be rather careful about the mods I want and on what equipment. =/ I can't afford most of the uber gear, and as most know, meleers tend to live or die by their equipt selections. I don't have a single shaftstop, although I think I have collected 3-4 strings of ears, and have a grand total of 1 stormshield for 5 characters between myself and my wife. Trade SS for a HoZ, anyone? ^_^ That would just mean I have to fight with my wife over who gets to use it! Hehe.

[Cod]

If you have a spare gore riders laying around, I'll be glad to take it off your hands


heh, i'm still using goblin toes, doing just fine :thumbsup:

[theBlackKnight]

Dont you want a high physical damage to have that +% fire lightning and cold damage from?

math in my mind to the way I think it works out IF the % elemental damages are multipliers of the base damage

100 base damage weapon
*3.70 = 370

150 base damage weapon
*3.70 = 515

If Im right, then you just want a cheap high damage weapon right?
like heavens light?

[Mr.E]

If you can bother to get a point into Redemption then you should be fine regardless of leech... =[

[slam]

Dont you want a high physical damage to have that +% fire lightning and cold damage from?

math in my mind to the way I think it works out IF the % elemental damages are multipliers of the base damage

100 base damage weapon
*3.70 = 370

150 base damage weapon
*3.70 = 515

If Im right, then you just want a cheap high damage weapon right?
like heavens light?
that's what i thought too - however, you need to calculate the increased damage from conviction. who knows what the numbers would be like then....

[Radagast]

And what about tossing Crescent Moon into the fray? Granted the ED is running low versus the big guns, you have -35 lit on top of conviction as well as static...

[Shadoway]

I agree with Loboleal only if the monsters you are facing just sit idle. Do they? They don't. So, I don't agree with him.

8-frame is a must for avengers. Being any slower, monsters will just mob you and interrupt most of your attacks. What's good with Famine's damage you cannot deliver it?

You need about extra 100% IAS for the 3 competitors to match Beast's 20%-to-8frame advantage. If you indeed come up with all the IAS needed, you could have used the equipment slots more effectively with Beast. Again, the main point to speed up your attack is to avoid an interrupt and extra damage is of secondary concern. Ever read the 4-frame zealot vs 5-frame zealot debate? The damage output is not as simple as 5:4.

P.S. BotD is probably the best weapon: huge damage and huge IAS. Use a warspike, you need 50%IAS outside of weapon.

[Loboleal]

I agree with Loboleal only if the monsters you are facing just sit idle. Do they? They don't. So, I don't agree with him.

8-frame is a must for avengers. Being any slower, monsters will just mob you and interrupt most of your attacks. What's good with Famine's damage you cannot deliver it?

You need about extra 100% IAS for the 3 competitors to match Beast's 20%-to-8frame advantage. If you indeed come up with all the IAS needed, you could have used the equipment slots more effectively with Beast. Again, the main point to speed up your attack is to avoid an interrupt and extra damage is of secondary concern. Ever read the 4-frame zealot vs 5-frame zealot debate? The damage output is not as simple as 5:4.

P.S. BotD is probably the best weapon: huge damage and huge IAS. Use a warspike, you need 50%IAS outside of weapon.
I know it's not that simple. However, a Famine BA can reach 9 fpa with only 60% more IAS.
When we consider all variables, things are more complicated. Speed is something to take always into account, but it's more important when you consider zeal than when you consider a normal attack.

Zeal spread damage over mobs, so its important for zeal to send monsters into hit recovery animation as quick as possible, in onder to take less damage from mob.
Normal attacks concentrate in 1 enemy at a time so, it's important for normal attacks to take down monsters as quick as possible in order to receive less damage from mob.

I agree with you, slow attacks make you get interrupted most of the time, but number of interruptions decrease exponentially as long as mob decrease linearly, so that is the main reason for reduce mobs as quick as possible.
You need to get a weapon that takes all this things into consideration and IMO Beast runeword lacks of killing power so mob size don't decrease so quickly, and for that reason I think you'll get interrupted more times. That's the main reason I defend Famine over Beast.

However I agree with you, BotD would be the best weapon:
47.5 * 1.5 * 5 = 356.25
356.25 * 2.7 = 474.5 * 3 = 2885.6
Total elemental avg damage: 2885.6
10 fpa (30% more to 9fpa) (95% more IAS to reach 8 fpa attack)

[GatoMuerto]

And what about tossing Crescent Moon into the fray? Granted the ED is running low versus the big guns, you have -35 lit on top of conviction as well as static...

Sigh. Crescent Moon isn't in the picture because of 3 things. -enemy resist isn't as important with conviction. static is great, but then again you are going for the light-heavy route for damage on an avenger. Might as well go all the way if you do that. Lastly, damage is king. You either need VERY fast speed increases (8-frame max makes that useless), or larger damage to be multiplied by vengeance. if you don't have either, or better yet both, you have less damage-over-time.

Crescent Moon is great, but just wasn't working for me as a damage consideration. Great for an alt-weapon for the AOE of static, but then again, zealots are better to trigger that.

[GatoMuerto]

P.S. BotD is probably the best weapon: huge damage and huge IAS. Use a warspike, you need 50%IAS outside of weapon.

BotD is top, hands down. 'nough said. Boring.

I was looking for something different from everyone and their brother using BotD. Every melee class looks at that runeword at one time or another, and I am personally getting rather tired of it.

BTW, who else feels Bliz didn't quite figure out the proper balance if all anyone wants BotD for is an eth 'zerker axe? Sigh. I tried to make a convicing argument to even try it in a hammer, but there is no way possible. Grrr.

[twighlight]

Opss, yes I forgot it.
Lvl 9 Fanaticism: +186% ED so:
175.75 * 2.86 = 502.65 Avg damage.


this is wrong as fantasism adds to the ed and since beast already has 2xx% (can't remember) it would not more than double the damage.

it would be more like this (pretending beast is 250%)

175.5 / 3.5 = 50.14....

50.14 * [250(ed) and 186 (fana)] 4.36

218.61 average dmg

i think the ed on beast is a bit higher so this figure would be slightly higher.

[Loboleal]

this is wrong as fantasism adds to the ed and since beast already has 2xx% (can't remember) it would not more than double the damage.

it would be more like this (pretending beast is 250%)

175.5 / 3.5 = 50.14....

50.14 * [250(ed) and 186 (fana)] 4.36

218.61 average dmg

i think the ed on beast is a bit higher so this figure would be slightly higher.

Fanaticism +ed% bonus is external %ed and doesn't add to on-weapon +ed%.
This is the way damage is calculated:
1. %ed on-weapon
2. +dam on-weapon
3. +dam off-weapon
4. %ed from skills/external/str or dex bonus
It's basicly this way. So, 47.5(BA's Avg damage) is multiplied by %ed on-weapon(270%) 47.5 * 3.7 = 175.75. After this +damage is added(none is this case). And lately, 175.75 is multiplied again by skills/external %ed so 175.75 * 2.86 = 502.65

You can see the FAQ at General Strategy forum for calculation damage

[wisedoor]

Most ppl despise Horazon´s Tornado and whine just bout stormlash, but it is a very good Avenger weapon due to huge IAS and slow mod. An ethereal one would be awesome.
IMHO, for vengeance, Horazons > Stormlash if both have average same ED.

HMmmm
Nice calcs, Loboleal... but wouldn´t the -%res from Doom and HoJ stack with Conv raising damage further?
From those runewords, i´d go definitely Doom on a -10 speed weapon (warspike) even if the damage is SLIGHTY lower, HF more than makes up for it.

[Snarlin Stef]

the advantage of Hand of justice is that you can get the fastest frame rate by putting it in a phase blade (make sure you get a superior one)

the major problem i see with vengeance in the pvp field is that its simply toooooo slow... 7 fps is sad and its not even uninterruptable.

i think that vengeance should be uninterruptable if its going to be that slow.

also i made a fire dmg heavy anvenger using Hand of justice and i wrote up a post on it maye a month ago or so... look it up to get some more insight. :)

thnx
stef

[Module88]

I agree with Loboleal only if the monsters you are facing just sit idle. Do they? They don't. So, I don't agree with him.

8-frame is a must for avengers. Being any slower, monsters will just mob you and interrupt most of your attacks. What's good with Famine's damage you cannot deliver it?

You need about extra 100% IAS for the 3 competitors to match Beast's 20%-to-8frame advantage. If you indeed come up with all the IAS needed, you could have used the equipment slots more effectively with Beast. Again, the main point to speed up your attack is to avoid an interrupt and extra damage is of secondary concern. Ever read the 4-frame zealot vs 5-frame zealot debate? The damage output is not as simple as 5:4.

P.S. BotD is probably the best weapon: huge damage and huge IAS. Use a warspike, you need 50%IAS outside of weapon.

8 frame is a must? So how does having 9 frames or so make much of a difference? (PvM) If you get hit, you will go into fhr or block animation. REGARDLESS of how many swings you get off per second, you will go into some kind of animation. Therefore, speed only affects how many times you can deliver damage/second, not how much you get interrupted by getting hit.

[Module88]

the advantage of Hand of justice is that you can get the fastest frame rate by putting it in a phase blade (make sure you get a superior one)

the major problem i see with vengeance in the pvp field is that its simply toooooo slow... 7 fps is sad and its not even uninterruptable.

i think that vengeance should be uninterruptable if its going to be that slow.

also i made a fire dmg heavy anvenger using Hand of justice and i wrote up a post on it maye a month ago or so... look it up to get some more insight. :)

thnx
stef

Personally, for pvp I'd aim for 8 frames and 86% FHR. Vengeance is not a fast attack, it is a powerful attack. When using vengeance for pvp, go for ALL of the elemental damage you can get. Elemental charms, synergies, lvl 25 conviction, go for it. The key to winning with avengers is one hit kills, not long drawn out matches. Always aim for one hit kills. It doesn't matter if he blocks 75% of your attacks. I'd sure as hell be scared of an attack if it could one hit ko me, blockable or not. Now of course, with CTA out nowadays, it'll be much harder. The key is to kill with the fewest hits, so speed isn't so much of a factor as damage.

[wisedoor]

Personally, for pvp I'd aim for 8 frames and 86% FHR. Vengeance is not a fast attack, it is a powerful attack. When using vengeance for pvp, go for ALL of the elemental damage you can get. Elemental charms, synergies, lvl 25 conviction, go for it. The key to winning with avengers is one hit kills, not long drawn out matches. Always aim for one hit kills. It doesn't matter if he blocks 75% of your attacks. I'd sure as hell be scared of an attack if it could one hit ko me, blockable or not. Now of course, with CTA out nowadays, it'll be much harder. The key is to kill with the fewest hits, so speed isn't so much of a factor as damage.

I had a 1.09 avenger with a cruel pb of evis, and i one-hit killed a lot.
It is not worthy to go to elemental charms. Max damage is multiplied multiple times by veng. A balance of max damage and +combat skill with life is the ideal setup. Other than this, your´re right in everything else.
With vengeance, a +3 max damage charm can mean +100 maximum total damage, with a good setup, +skills and conv.
BUT
Vengeance is a MUCH weaker pvp skill than it was in 1.09, even with sinergies. Aura stacking is gone. The new sinergies will NEVER make up the loss of aura stacking that allowed avengers to wield heavier weapons. Zeal is improved, as well as almost every other pvp-usable skill. The power of Veng was one-hit kill. With the new PvP penalty, it´s much harder without a real godly weapon (superb rare).Avengers got weakened against melee classes just cuz of the lower DR cap (that benefit melee classes against the avenger)
1.10 is all against avengers for PvP.

[Loboleal]

wouldn´t the -%res from Doom and HoJ stack with Conv raising damage further?
I don't think -%res would help too much with Conviction. There is a -100% res cap so a monster should have >50% res to that element for getting benefit of -%res from Doom/HoJ/CM runewords. And, I don't know if that -%res works on immunes with their immunity broken but I think no.
However, I agree with you, Holy Freeze adds a nice crowd control element. And this is very good for an Avenger.
I made those calcs for output damage before -%res mods are aplied. But obviously there a lot of factors to decice which weapon is the best for an Avenger. If those things were easy, then we weren't here discusing it :D
Happy Avenging :thumbsup:

[wisedoor]

I made some tests with a mod, and i am pretty sure -%res works this way with conv against a PhysicalImune / Fourelemental Imune with 2 hi-res and breakable cold immunity.
Conv breaks immunity but works just at a fraction of its effective % lowering. Most immunities broken by conv will let monsters at like 70-80 resist. After immunity is broken, -%res from Doom/Hoj and other items will be applied fully, greatly improving damage from the elemental. Conv and -%res still use the same cap limit toguether.
Against non-immune monsters, Conv alone is enough to reach -%res cap, and the mod is useless.
Note that due to some weird thinking of blizz programmers, most of the cold immunes in hell do have cold immunity UNBREAKABLE, around 200+ res cold. Doom still is kickass cuz of HF. HoJ would kill fire immunes slighty faster. CMoon would kill lit immunes slighty faster (but have low ed).

[MrPipes]

So is there a definite answer here? (I made the poll a few threads down)

I'm just starting my avenger right now, and he's only lvl 7. I think I'm almost 100% sure that I'll be going with a runeword, since I've never experienced one of these elite ones and I think it'd be fun. Read this thread several times over, and it seems like Loboleal really makes a convincing argument that in the long run, Famine seems the best choice for an Avenger. I like the idea of having fanat or holy freeze in my weapon, but like Loboleal said; Fanat won't be doing extremely much for me, and Holy Freeze can be gotten from a mercenary. Any suggestions?

I guess I'll end up using some kind of mercenary, since I'll need a meat shield. What are the best ones for Avengers, since might seems pointless when I'm trying to do elemental damage. Blessed Aim mercenary? Attack rating is always useful. Defiance? Then again, I'll have HoZ for 75% blocking. Any suggestions?

Now I just need the frickin' Jah and Ohm runes. Jeeeeeezus, those are rare.

[Module88]

I had a 1.09 avenger with a cruel pb of evis, and i one-hit killed a lot.
It is not worthy to go to elemental charms. Max damage is multiplied multiple times by veng. A balance of max damage and +combat skill with life is the ideal setup. Other than this, your´re right in everything else.
With vengeance, a +3 max damage charm can mean +100 maximum total damage, with a good setup, +skills and conv.
BUT
Vengeance is a MUCH weaker pvp skill than it was in 1.09, even with sinergies. Aura stacking is gone. The new sinergies will NEVER make up the loss of aura stacking that allowed avengers to wield heavier weapons. Zeal is improved, as well as almost every other pvp-usable skill. The power of Veng was one-hit kill. With the new PvP penalty, it´s much harder without a real godly weapon (superb rare).Avengers got weakened against melee classes just cuz of the lower DR cap (that benefit melee classes against the avenger)
1.10 is all against avengers for PvP.

So did I, and instead I used a 3 40/15 IAS Cruel Myth of Evis. Stacked auras and used various charms. Max dmg charms aren't increased to as much dmg as high elemental charms are. With no dmg aura, elemental charms will do more dmg in 1.1. Avengers lost a lot of punch, but they are still viable in manner dueling.