Assassin Ranger?

[mrp935]

Hi all.

I've spent a fair amount of time in the Paladin forum. I'm a big fan of the Ranger (bow-using Paladin) build, in particular, the Elemental Rangers (those which use Holy Fire/Freeze/Shock).

I don't have any experience with Assassins, but I was looking at the skill "Venom" in particular, and thought it might be useful in creating an Assassin version of the Ranger.

I also read this on the battle.net D2X site:
"You can use any one or two-handed weapon with Tiger Strike, Cobra Strike, Phoenix Strike"

So this would include bows, right?

Has anyone else thought of this type of character?
What other skills might be useful in this build?

Also, Fade or Burst of Speed can be used with Venom, right?
On the battle.net site it says "Burst of Speed and Fade cannot be used at the same time. You can only use one of them at a time." But in the old strategy guide book, it said only one of these three skills (Fade, Burst of Speed, Venom) could be used at the some time. Just want to make sure.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Naliworld]

The "official" name for a bow-using(usually inconjunction with Venom) Assassin is a "Sniper Viper". Though the build was reasonably popular in 1.09 for a variant build, it's become less so in 1.10, as there really aren't many advantages to using Venom long-range rather than short-range(given Venom's huge reduction in duration from 1.09 to 1.10)

Unfortunately, no. Ranged weapons of any type(unless they are used in melee, eg. javelins) cannot charge or release any chargeups.

Use Battle.net's info for the BoS/Fade/Venom stacking issue(BoS + Venom or Fade + Venom work).

You could use the cookie-cutter Lightning Trap Assassin as a template, remove 20 points in Lightning Traps and put them in Venom instead(to be used once you've laid your Lightning traps). Eg.
20 LS
20 CBS
20 SWeb/DS
20 Venom
1 MB
1 SM

However, there's one problem: weapon slots are a major source of +Trap skills(ideally, two +3 Trap claws). You could lay your Traps with your +skill claws, then switch to your Bow setup and start firing, but over time, this gets very tiresome.

The alternative is to this is to use your bow setup full-time, and forget about +skill claws. However, your LS damage will suffer significantly.

EDIT: There may be another option for you, but it hasn't been tested extensively in-game.

http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=131399&page=1&pp=25&highlight=Shadow+Warrior

The Trap/Melee suggestion brought up by Jrichard sounds best(I would go with 20 DTalon instead of DTail, though), IMO. After max SWarrior and the 1 point wonders, you have 64 points left (assuming slvl 85 character with the 12 skillpoints), leaving 44 for your Traps(20 goes into an MA skill). On yourself(with +12 Traps, and +13 SW), that means 1-2955 LS damage. On your SWarrior, that means 1-4490, which seems pretty decent IMO for supplementary damage.

In your case, you'd max Venom instead of DTalon/DTail, with the rest of the skills being the samebe having Normal Attack on your LMB, and LS on your RMB(you'd be using Venom full-time, with your Shadow hopefully casting LS most of the time). However, this build depends a lot on getting +skills, which could get expensive without the help of weapon slots(eg. +3 helm, +3 ammy, +1 armor, +1 belt, +2 rings, rest from +skill charms).

Do note that the effectiveness of this build depends very much on how often your SWarrior casts LS, as Venom damage alone won't suffice in Hell. If she does, though, her Traps will do considerably higher damage than yours(if you're wondering what's stopping you from casting your own LS traps in addition to your Shadow's, 1.10 put into place a cap 5 traps active at any one time, per Assassin. However, Traps cast by your Shadow count toward the limit, so if there are already 5 traps cast by yourself, and your Shadow decides to cast one, her new Trap will overwrite one of yours).

[mrp935]

I was thinking about this sort of skill allocation (pretty safe to say this is geared towards PvM):

20 Venom -- for obvious reasons
20 Cloak of Shadows -- great Ranger skill; like Inner Sight and Dim Vision all rolled into one. This is good for controlling crowds, and also it helps make up for the lack of AR (since you can't use Martial Arts skills).

20 Fade
20 Shadow Master
^ These both seem pretty much standard for all Assassins.


Is Psychic Hammer worth putting any points into?
I like that
- it does magic damage which not many monsters are immune to
- it allows you to use magic/physical damage against poison immunes
But is the damage too weak in Hell? The mana cost does seem a bit steep. So far I've found it useful for taking out shamans and such without having to try and shoot through a crowd.

A benefit of this setup is that all your skills are in the Shadow Disciplines tree, so it's easier to look for +skill equipment (I'm very poor).

Also, which would be a better merc; Act2 for Blessed Aim or Act1 for Inner Sight? Again, my reason behind these 2 mercs is to make up for the lack of AR you'll have. Which skill would give you a better chance to hit?

Act2 merc are nice for tanking, but sometimes they wander off too far, and you might not get the aura, especially if they attack a monster you've knockbacked off the screen or something. On the other hand, your Shadow Master might be enough of a tank, so the Act1 might be better; that way you only have to search for one type of weapon (bow) to equip yourself and your merc.

Can Inner Sight even be cast on monsters that already have Cloak of Shadows on them? Will casting Cloak of Shadows override curses on monsters?


Help?

[Naliworld]

I'm not sure about the max Fade...you may need BoS's bonuses more, if you aren't using a Demon Machine.

I'd stay away from maxing CoS - it has a hidden side effect. Once CoS is active, you cannot re-cast it(at ANY location) until the duration of the original CoS runs out. That means, once you cast an slvl 20 CoS, you'll find yourself waiting for the original CoS to run out before tackling another crowd, as monsters outside the 20 yard radius are unaffected. IMO, stick to 1 point. +skills should push it to 5-7, which should suffice.

I've been trying to find a way to make PH useful as well(it being the only magic damage an Assassin can muster from skills), but it simply has too low damage(even with 20 +skills), and no synergies, to be able succeed in late NM(don't even talk about Hell). MB is still better for crowd control, for the stun duration and converts. Dang, if only MB synergized PH....

Since you're not going to be much of a tank, I'd go with the Act2 Merc. You may not need one of the Blessed Aim variety, though, depending on your choice of bow(e.g. the Exploding Arrow/Bolt mod gives the Kuko Shakaku and Demon Machine a 100% chance to hit, regardless of AR or level). If you don't need the Blessed Aim, Holy Freeze/Might is the way to go, IMO.

Curses and CoS overwrite each other, but I'm not sure about Inner Sight.

[Kaffe]

I did a lot of experiments with Bowassins in .09. It was a kind of "fun to do build".

I fiddled with "Sniper Vipers" a lot. And you need a damn good weapon to make it work. Since Venom has changed a lot, it might be more useful.

A trap to back it all up is nice, but synnergies is quite costly in skill points. Maxing venom, lightning synnergies and BoS is a tad bit too many skill points in the end I think...

But Mind Blast ain't a shame. Convert a pack of monster, poison the ones who don't agree with you. And stand back for a while. Repeat.

My first idea was basicly a kick-*** bow. Eaglehorn is fine. Load up with AR and Max damage. Max BoS. You won't pack as much of a punch as a full-fledged Zon with Guided. But you'll still be able to get highest possible firing rate, and still pack nice physical damage, since BoS gives you such a nice IAS bonus, this is quite possible while having gear and charms to give you Resistances and PDR. Since you can use Venom with Fade or BoS now, it would kind of cool to add that to this variant.

Of course, these are all mostly .09 ideas. I'm still relearning some stuff as I've just entered the scene again (not been playing much in 1.10 at all).

[Frenzied Bovine]

Bow suggestion: Widowmaker.

Skill suggestion: Death Sentry.

I also recommend getting one of those wands, Death Web I think it is - lowers enemy poison resistance like crazy - and having it on the switch. After striking a target with a venomed arrow, switch to DW and stand there letting the poison do it's work. I'm of the understanding that this method actually works.

The biggest advantage of bows is piercing - so if you decide NOT to go with a Widowmaker, try and get something with piercing. Obviously, my recommendation is a Buriza.

If you don't take advantage of pierce, you might as well be using blade fury. Seriously.

[lextalionis]

Definately use Trang's Gloves for the bonus Poison Damage on a Venom build.

I think people don't have any idea of the timer on Venom now. If you are using that at all it will reduce your poison timer to .4 seconds. That's not much time at all. If you attack slow enough, you might not be able to swing again before Venom wears off. So you won't be able to Poison and then do something else like weaponswitch (even if that would work with Venom).

Now if you want to do some kicking DTalon with Venom and use Death's Web while kicking, that might work. Someone else with Death's Web would have to do some testing, to see the damage output.

Lastly, I think you could have a fun, possibly even decent build using a bow and kicks. I'm just not sure what all the possiblities would be. Ballista has a lot of cold damage. I'm not sure what other mods bows have would be good, but I know that Druids have been using bows as melee weapons in WW/WB form for a long time.

Any Bowassassin is going to be facing some real challenges because the Assassin skills in 1.10 are even less suited for use with bows than in 1.09. They also have very few skills that actually aid them in the use of bows.

I think its a shame that assassins don't have any bow synergy, but sais la vie. At least assassins do have BF

[Frenzied Bovine]

Whoops, I forgot about the .4 second timer on Venom :D

[lextalionis]

Whoops, I forgot about the .4 second timer on Venom :D
Frenzied its all good, I've caught you once to you catching me oh about 100Xs.

[mrp935]

Since you're not going to be much of a tank, I'd go with the Act2 Merc. You may not need one of the Blessed Aim variety, though, depending on your choice of bow(e.g. the Exploding Arrow/Bolt mod gives the Kuko Shakaku and Demon Machine a 100% chance to hit, regardless of AR or level). If you don't need the Blessed Aim, Holy Freeze/Might is the way to go, IMO.

My understanding was that Exploding Arrows only "always hit" with their own fire damage, your +fire damage on your equipment, and your %crushing blow, and that if you don't have enough AR, your physical arrow misses along with any other forms of damage that you might have (i.e. poison from Venom).

I could be wrong.
Can anyone clarify?

Thanks for all the help guys, btw.

[Dragonkat]

While a more hybrid sin then a full bore sniper viper I do have a build along this vein (ranged + venom) That has gotten me in SP to act 4 hell and lvl 70+

Started as a cute "concept build" To see how effective a maxed shock web + fire blast syn could be on the trap side, while the main attack came in the form of throwing knives + shield duo. A bow was ruled out as I wanted speed, resists, blocking, and I was trying to be a bit more non traditional if I could =p Though since finding a wizendraw I've kept it as a handy alt weapon in low ammo situations. (Ancient's Anyone?)

Since I'm off the home comp I can't give exact details on stats and skill placement just the few I do know off the top of my head, if you'd like I can look it up when I get home tonight, but the method of attack involved letting my woestave using HF merc and shadow bunch up the enemy while I pile on the webs (it's on 20 now, FB syn on 12) Then sit back and the venomed (11) and Bos'ed (5) knives fly, pausing every few shots to drop down a few more webs, and by now hehe I've really nicknamed them the poor man's firewall....err litwall.

Harder targets get lit sentries (9) thrown into the mix, and when you put webs on top of that the lit damage can pile up quick, specially as they syn off each other hehe.

Corpse removal or situations involving "spawner critters" get a couple lvl 1 death sentries thrown in for giggles, and the extra shots thanks to fireblast prove quite the help much to my inital surprise and now great delight.

Merc saving is done with my new best friend in hell, that being mind blast. Nothing beats turning the entire minion pack on an annoying as heck unique, and (Though I'd need a smidge more testing before saying it's 100% true, that and if this is common knowledge forgive me as I've just recently gotten back into forum visiting) For the times when I get really fed up, I just hold the button down, and keep the pests, even uniques in perma knockback mode so my merc can go to town.

Gearwise it's what's really the kicker for me though, I did NOT expect from tales I've heard to get a character this far into hell diff using garden variety throwing knives as a weapon, and mostly crafted gear + a smoke dusk shroud for armor. Some knives had pmh mod, some with extra elemental damage, and some with IaS at first, though now I have found some very nice rare flying knives, that and two stacks with the fools mod are great for things that refuse to be hit, and yes my cube is full of knives for any situation.

Ok starting to ramble again hehe so lets cut this short with an answer to the question, yes in my opinion the ranged venom build is QUITE doable up to hell. But and it's a big one I don't think it can succeed now if you take the min/max approach with your skills. Despite getting increases in the +min max poison as you up venom it really does start to become diminishing returns if you ask me as monsters gain more life and become harder to hit, hence why I've stopped at 11, and plan to devote more points now to my support skills like the shadow, the last point to make lit sentry an even 10, and finish maxing the fireblast syn out. To really make the idea shine, pile on extra damage with the venom in the form of a trap or three is my take.

Though I don't use them myself, blades + venom always seems to be as popular as ever. And though this is unrelated, I've learned that a syn boosted fireblast can make a much better crowd stomper in certain instances then you'd think a lvl 1 skill could, course to get it that way does involve devoting a LOT of points into traps like I have now so it's not for every build.

Hehe anyway as I always say, hope some of the thoughts from a rambling scaled kitty can be of some use. ^_-

[royalesse]

This is more for MRP935 than anyone else (since I see all the regulars posting). Bows on Assasins have gone out since the improvement of Blade Fury. You may want to read the FAQ on it before making a Ranger type build.

I know rangers are cool and all but I'd rather have the machinegun of Bladefury over a bow any day.

Just a suggestion

[mrp935]

Just a little update

I'm going with this build:

Maxed skills (in order):
BoS (maxed)
CoS (at 6 or 7 currently)
Venom (none yet)
Shadow Master (none yet)

Rogue: Norm Act1 Cold



So far in Normal, I've had no real problems. I tried an Act2 merc for a while, but he got killed way too easily, since he basically got swarmed and I couldn't kill monsters fast enough. But with the Rogue (currently lvl14), this isn't a problem. I know I won't be able to kill fast; this is effectively a UIB. Progress has been slow, but steady; I'm at clvl26, and I just got thru norm ancients fairly easily (while clvl24) with the help of a random Zon about the same level.

CoS and Inner Sight are GREAT together! Wow. CoS is so much more useful for ranged attacks than in melee, IMHO.
On one of my pally rangers I had an ammy with lvl1 Inner Sight charges; he used an act2 B.aim merc. Man was it comical to see a Pally not only using a bow, but casting I.S.

A friend of mine was kind enough to donate me a pair of Nat's boots and Nat's armor (not that I can use it yet). None of my friends play assassins, so they're letting me have any good equip they find. Still looking for a pair of Trang gloves, and some +shadow/+asn claws to pre-buff... well, all of my maxed skills. :P I sense a lot of weapon switching once I actually find some.

Hopefully I can find a good, fast +skills bow for my Rogue
So far she's using Vidala's (set) bow, and I'm using the unique normal bow "Stormstrike" (as I've said, I'm very poor, with no MF char on ladder, and I'm basically using items as I find them)


Some questions:

1. Which armor would be cheaper/wiser/better?
a) Bramble runeword (dunno what best armor to put it in would be)
b) Nat's armor w/ 3 Poison Facets

2. Do Rogues only benefit from "+all skills" and "+amazon skills", or would they also benefit from, say "+cold arrow" or "+inner sight" ?

3. Similarly, do Rogues (and/or merc in general) benefit from synergies? For example, if a Fire Rogue is using the unique normal bow "Blastbark," would the "+2 To Exploding Arrow (Amazon Only)" mod on the bow increase the damage on the rogue's fire arrow?

Heh. I dunno if the assassin forums are the best place to get those last 2 answered. Oh well. If you guys know anyone who might be able to help, send them the link.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks guys.

[Naliworld]

1. If you can trade for a 37%+ Bramble, IMO go with that. If not, the Shadow with 3 perf. Facets.

2. Rogues do not benefit from +Amazon skills. They do use +all skills, though. Not sure on +Ice Arrow/Fire Arrow/Bow & Crossbow tree.

3. Not sure on that. I'd usually say no, but Shadows gain synergy bonuses from +skills, so you can't rule that out.

PS. A few questions of mine:
1) What's the use of slvl 1 Inner Sight charges? Doesn't it only deduct 40 defense?
2) What's UIB?

[mrp935]

About the Inner sight: I dunno, i just thought it was funny.
As for UIB: I typoed that, it should be IUB (intentionally underpowered build)

[Sv_Lorax]

Very interesting build. I thought about the throwing knives at one point and even used them on weapon switch for my first assassin (long, long ago). I am interested to see how this bow using sin makes it in NM or Hell. Good luck though, and please keep us updated.

[mrp935]

2. Rogues do not benefit from +Amazon skills. They do use +all skills, though. Not sure on +Ice Arrow/Fire Arrow/Bow & Crossbow tree.

Odd. On the DII.net merc section, they talk about that big hacking experiment, giving the Rogue +112 to Amazon skills.

"As we know, mercenaries can wear Plus-to-Skill items, as long as the items are appropriate to their character type. Rogue Mercenaries are fortunate enough to be able to wear "Plus to Amazon Skills" items, and to benefit from their boosts."

So is this no longer true in v1.10?

I know the Rogue can't use "Amazon Only" bows, but, of course, +amazon skills can be found on just regular bows, too.

I am interested to see how this bow using sin makes it in NM or Hell. Good luck though, and please keep us updated.

I had toyed with the idea of making a guide for this build, once I had effectively completed the character and could provide some REAL insights, rather than just theory. I wanted to include a really elaborate backstory to kick it off. From there, the idea kinda morphed into maybe writing its own complete fan-fic story just for the hell of it. And then I had the idea of maybe doing both, and then going through Hell (once I got there) and writing about that. All very MongoJerry-esque. (Not that I would claim to be as skilled as that guy or anything.)

I dunno. Maybe if I'm committed enough; at the moment I'm a very "casual" player, not like hardcore gun-ho or anything. Perhaps things will change though.



On another note, assuming I get that far, I think my fifth skill should probably be Death Sentry, to help take care of Poison/Physical immunes. Any thoughts on this? Are there some better options?

[theBlackKnight]

My dream IUB

ss + lacerators
ss+ fleshripper

upped ga / leviathan / chains
upped gorefoots
ravenfrost
verdungos
carrion wind
lavagouts / crafted blood gloves
highlords amu

20 into dtalon
venom
fade
shockweb
and fireblast ( if i get the time )

Strategy: use the 1 point wonder mind blast + cloak to cause chaos
atack with throw venomized lacerators till amp casts / i run low
go in and kick some arse :D






I hope that yours works out well, and please feel free to try and submit it all as a humerous story of your trial and tribulations :)

[mrp935]

I hope that yours works out well, and please feel free to try and submit it all as a humerous story of your trial and tribulations :)


The actual stylized storyline I had created in my head was very dark, serious, and, at times, brutal. Think "Max Payne." Sort of reflective of the character-type; brooding, shadowy, mysterious. An outcast. And at the same time, full of a sort of strained hope.

Anyways. I'm sure I sound like an emo teenager now. :P
But yeah, we shall see.

[mrp935]

Hey guys.

I'm still playing this character on a fairly casual basis. I've settled on the name "Archer" for this build, for 3 reasons:
1) I hate the term "Sniper Viper." It's almost as bad as "Palazon" or "Zonadin" i.e. why the term "Ranger" was invented for Paladins.
2) "A" for Assasin, "A" for Archer
3) Rangers are Paladins. Otherwise I would totally have used that name. But constantly specifying "ASSASSIN Ranger" gets tiresome.


I'm at the point where I can do NM Baal runs, but I'm holding off, because I'm trying to keep my merc up at a reasonable level (she's 45, I'm 58).
I can usually let her kill on her own so she gets more XP, but it's slower. I've maxed BoS, Venom, and CoS (in that order). The longer duration on maxed CoS is not much of a hinderance, especially when letting the merc get all the kills, and/or if you cast it on a very large group of monsters.

I'm doing well in NM. I'm using Ichorsting crossbow for its piercing attack and +20 Dex. Also I have Twitchthroe armor, and a rare helm with +1% AR per clvl. I have Cleglaw gloves for the knockback. On weapon switch I have a Fool's Katar and Cleglaw shield, giving me really good AR for when I'm low on ammo and need to go melee. I have 2 angelic rings but no ammy, so I'm just using two ~+100 AR rings.

I put a few points in strength and use charms/equip to get the rest of the way up to 65 for Nat's boots. The rest of my charms are pretty much all +dex and some +life.

I don't know what my "ideal endgame" equip will be, so I don't know how much str and/or dex I should aim for before charms/items.
Any thoughts on what items might be best?

I'm really liking the cold Rogue merc, although she could use some more IAS. I need a better damage bow for her; she doesn't have Venom to beef things up like I do.

I like Venom, although I wish it lasted a bit longer. But it's pretty easy to tell when you need to recast, because the difference in damage (in NM anyway, so far) becomes obvious pretty quick. I also think it wouldn't hurt if it added some AR bonus. Same goes for Holy Elemental Auras for the Paladin, if you ask me. This would really go a long way to making Archers/Rangers more viable, in my books. Then again this would make Venom basically Poison Dagger, minus the dagger requirement. And Venom isn't designed with Archers in mind; it's designed for melee Assassins who already have AR bonuses from Martial Arts skills and/or claw mastery.

The lack of AR is what really makes CoS a must-have in this build, but the blindness makes the game a lot easier. Well worth the skill investment, IMHO. With Unique packs, just target the Unique monster; the knockback tends to keep him far enough away that he won't hit you, and you can kill him easily. Taking out the minions is a breeze, just make sure to take a step back and recast if/when CoS runs out. Groups of champions are the only real troublesome monsters.

Meh. I've ust always found it odd that Zons were really the only ranged attackers built into the game; everyone else is either a spellcaster, a melee, a summoner, or any combination of the above. And trying to go against that is a real penalty to your character: even Enchantresses are designed to NOT be ranged attackers.


Anyways.
I was wondering if going with maxed Shadow Master would be worth it, or would it be better to maybe go for a Trap + a synergizing skill?
Any thoughts?

I think a SM tank is only really useful against Champions and maybe Act bosses (due to CoS) and it won't help vs. Poison and/or Phys Immunes in hell. Sure my merc adds some cold, but really, a negligible amount. So I think another form of damage will be called for. This is why I was interested in PH early on, but it really is too weak.

As always, any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks Guys!

[Omikron8]

Rogue Mercs DO benefit from +amazon skill items unless this was changed in 1.10. In 1.09 something like +2 amazon skills (eg. cliffkiller) would result in the rogue merc constantly firing fire or cold arrows and no longer shooting regular arrows at all.

[darcho420]

I am currently making one of these Assassins. I simply call it my "Bow Assassin."

My skills will be like this:

Max Fade
Max D Talon
Max Venom
lvl 10 CoS
Lvl 14 or 15 D flight
then have 1 in all the blade skills
other skill points i am not sure yet

Gear:

Andarials Visage
Highlords or Maras
Bramble or Stone
Verdungos
Raven frost and some other ring depending on what I need
Upped gore riders
lavagout or upped blood fists, maybe even cleglaws for kicks
Widowmaker

My plan is to cast fade, cast blade sheild, cast venom. When outside of town I can cas CoH, then I can spam some GA until the psn starts to eat away my victis health, tele kick in, and if that doesnt finish them then ill just d talon their ***. I think fade is a great skill for bow assassins, it has resists and pdr, which makes up for the non usage of a sheild or a defensive claw.

I am still experimenting with this build but for duels it could be great.

[strength_honor]

Look...The Trapper/Ranger build is really effective...

You should max:

20 Light Sentry
20 Death Sentry
20 Charge Bolt Sentry
20 Venom
20 Shock Web


rest into every skill of Shadow Tree

thats 110 pts right on...

so basically you just max everyone and leave shock web alone and max it later.

For equipment use:

Shako Jah'ed or Resist Jewel.
Engima MagePlate
Fast Cast Life Leech 50+ Mana Ring/ Raven Frost 250/20
Gorerider or that Necro boot
Highlord
Trang's Glove

Primary: WidoMaker Um'ed
Secondary: HoTO / Stormshield 15req/15resist jewel.

You can hit 9 fps attack with BOS on, I dont think using Fade is a good idea because both trap casting and Shooting require you to have lots of IAS and BOS cover that.

Guided Arrow Volley + MindBlase/Trap Stun is never a bad combo...

For Charms, use 10 x Trap Charm + 9 x 20/5 + Anni.

[FrolfFreak]

Just an idea for the name... how about "Zen Archer"?

-FF

[lextalionis]

Just an idea for the name... how about "Zen Archer"?

-FF
What was so wrong with Sniper Viper. People have been using it. Its been around for a long time. Its easy to remember. I think it already got named, I'd just accept it.

[FrolfFreak]

Sorry; i wasn't trying to replace sniper viper with zen archer or anything. It's just that mrp935 said he hated the name "Sniper Viper", so i thought i might suggest something for him to consider if/when he writes a guide for his particular build.

-FF

[darcho420]

Meh, Sniper viper sounds lame, just because it rhymes ppl think its good. But relly where does the "viper" come into play... jsut cause of the venom? How about shadow archer, it sounds cooler. or stealth ranger or whatever, sniper viper is lame. it rhymes, and sounds like something off of pokemon.

[mrp935]

I think Archer is just a nice simple name for Assassins who use bows in general.
I like Shadow Archer. Maybe it could be used to specifically describe the type of build I'm using (all skills in SD tree) sorta like how cold/fire Rangers are called "Thermal Rangers"

And we could have Light (trap) Archers, Fire, Blade, Kick etc. for the different variations.

Basically, Archer is a nice base word. Just my take on things.

[Naliworld]

"Sniper Viper" may not be the best/coolest of names, but to minimize confusion between Bow Assassin names(esp. for those who aren't familliar with the variations), IMO I'd stick with one name(can't stop you guys from thinking up another one, though. Just my personal take). Lextalionis also brings up a good point in that it's easy to remember(because it rhymes?)...

Looks like I made a mistake about +skill items. Any +skills appear to work, according to both the Arreat Summit (http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/basics/hirelings.shtml) and dii.net. Sorry for any confusion caused.

[Kaffe]

What's wrong with Bowassin or Bowasin? It works for the Amazon; Bowazon.

[lextalionis]

What's wrong with Bowassin or Bowasin? It works for the Amazon; Bowazon.

Bowassin is to Sniper Viper as Bowadin is to Ranger. I think both are acceptable. Sniper Viper is the name of the build. Bowassin is the name of an assassin that uses a bow. Both are descriptive. Both work. But we don't need more names. Forum member here have long accepted Sniper Viper. Newbies or people who don't like Sniper Viper should feel free to use Bowassin. But we don't need another "Sniper Viper"-like name. You snooze you loose. First person to do the guide/show everyone the build is the one that names her. And its been named. Any further naming will only cause confusion.

Truthfully this is a bit of a problem in the Paladin forum. I can never remember all the stupid names they've come up with for every conceivable combonation of skills under the sun. Avenger I always get they use Vengence. But its darn near impossible to remember Judicators and Templers and the like. They have no. Absolutely no connection in name to the skills they use.

At least Sniper Viper has a good connection to the build. Its a bow (sniper) and viper (venom). It rhymes. Its easy to remember. It may not be cool, but what we are looking for is something to quickly identify a build. If you want cool, name your sniper viper something cool. But for the forums we need terms that connect quickly for referrence purposes.

[darcho420]

Shadow Archer - A character that uses a bow and shadow skills, including (but not limited to) venom.

Sniper Viper - A cute, pokemon sounding name, that refers to a character that uses a bow and venom.

Any character can use a bow and venom, therefore the name "Sniper Viper" is applicable to all classes, including the assassin. For example, a necromancer with arachnids or andarials, and a bow, can be a sniper viper.

Only one character can be a Shadow Archer, the assassin. Only one character can use Cloak of Shadows, Venom, Fade/BoS, and Mind Blast, simutaneously. Therefore only the assassin can be a Shadow Archer.

Sniper Viper is too vague, and would only be acceptable if the age limit on this game was 13.

[Naliworld]

Let's be perfectly honest here: Sniper Vipers/Shadow Archers(or Bow-using Assassins in general) aren't mainstream. The only time someone would hear about this name would be in a Assassin-related discussion, so IMO the cross-class confusion would be minimal.

"Sniper" implies something to do with assassination and the like, and thus lends itself to this class. I don't have anything against "Archer", but somehow it seems a bit too general for me. The "Shadow" prefix makes it more specific, but it's too typical, IMO(any Bow-using character could don a dark armor like Corpsemourn and claim he's made a Shadow Archer). Every Assassin uses the Shadow skill tree to a decent degree, and most Trappers, I would guess, would make as much use of MB/CoS/SM/Fade as any Bowassassin.

IMO Venom is the main focus of the Bowassassin. A Bowassassin isn't going to deal viable damage with Physical damage alone, so Venom plays a bigger part in making the Bowassassin build viable to some degree in the first place(I'm not saying the other Shadow skills are useless for this build, far from it, I'm just suggesting that Venom is the most important).

[mrp935]

To get things back on topic a bit.

I'm still hunting for some Trang-oul gloves for the Poison skill damage increase.
Also I'm looking for a 2-socket Chu-Ko-Nu or Demon Crossbow for the "Zephyr" runeword, and their naturally high attack speed.

Zephyr:
+33% Enhanced Damage
+66 To Attack Rating
Adds 1-50 Lightning Damage
-25% Target Defense
+25 Defense
25% Faster Run/Walk
25% Increased Attack Speed
7% Chance To Cast Level 1 Twister When Struck

-target defense on top of what CoS already does
IAS and FRW on top of what BoS does
Basically focusing on strengthening what I'm already strong in.
Sounds like a good plan, eh?

I've already got the runes for it (Ort + Eth, pretty easy to come by). Although by switching out my Ichorsting, I lose pierce, which sucks. I should try and get my hands on something I could trade for a Razortail.

I'm around level 60 and I've started putting points into SM, a fateful decision to be sure. I'll keep you guys posted.

[Sim.The.GoSu]

Zephyr is a very viable choice. Although, you might wanna look out for Pois Imms

[Naliworld]

To get things back on topic a bit.

I'm still hunting for some Trang-oul gloves for the Poison skill damage increase.
Also I'm looking for a 2-socket Chu-Ko-Nu or Demon Crossbow for the "Zephyr" runeword, and their naturally high attack speed.

Zephyr:
+33% Enhanced Damage
+66 To Attack Rating
Adds 1-50 Lightning Damage
-25% Target Defense
+25 Defense
25% Faster Run/Walk
25% Increased Attack Speed
7% Chance To Cast Level 1 Twister When Struck

-target defense on top of what CoS already does
IAS and FRW on top of what BoS does
Basically focusing on strengthening what I'm already strong in.
Sounds like a good plan, eh?

I've already got the runes for it (Ort + Eth, pretty easy to come by). Although by switching out my Ichorsting, I lose pierce, which sucks. I should try and get my hands on something I could trade for a Razortail.

I'm around level 60 and I've started putting points into SM, a fateful decision to be sure. I'll keep you guys posted.

If you do manage to find a 2 socket Chu-Ko-Nu(I'll keep an eye out for you), and socket it with the 'Zephyr' runeword, you won't need to use BoS, as the Chu-Ko-Nu maxes its speed out at 11 frames with just 19% IAS('Zephyr's innate IAS will get you there with 6% IAS to spare), so use Fade instead.

[royalesse]

You can try the zephyr... but the ichorsting / pierce is probably better as far as killing power.

Have you tried shopping for a chu-ko it at a vendor?

[mrp935]

Well, after a lengthy absence, I'm back with another update on the progress of my character.

(GreenRanger, USWest SC LoD, was on first season ladder, now just normal LoD character.)

I'm kicking around in NM still.
My character is currently at about lvl75, so I just started using Nat's armor.

I can't get into a lot of specifics because I don't have the actual info handy.


Equip:
Nat's Helm
Nat's boots
Nat's Armor
Ichorsting socketed with Nef(yup, still using it)
Trang-oul gloves
Rings 2x +100~ to AttackRating
+1 Shadow Ammy (no other mods)

Weapon switch:
2x +2 Asn skill claws

Merc: (Act1 Cold)
Rare Helm with "Visionary" mod (+1% AttackRating per Clvl)
...can't remember what else off hand

Stats:
um....
STR and DEX are enough for equipment (a lot of STR for Nat's armor)
rest in VIT
no NRG

Skills:
20 BoS
20 CoS
20 Venom
15~ Shadow Master
0 Mind Blast


Comments:

I love this char! Sooo much fun. I can solo most of NM, my only real trouble spot is Lister's pack in Baal's throne room. Also, the mage-type Oblivion Knights in Act4 can still cast spells when blinded by CoS, which can be annoying. Champion packs are not much of a problem; they don't ger blinded, but their usually melee monsters that I/my merc/SM can take out fairly easily.
I CANNOT thank my friends enough for the equipment they've given me (all my Nat's and trang gloves)

I use me weaponswitch to pre-buff BoS, Venom, and SM.
On rare occassions, i do use it for CoS (a whopping -93% to enemy defense!) but the duration is quite a bit lengthier. Without the additional +4 from my claws, it's only about -83% defense, but the duration is a lot more manageable.

Shadow Master is great! Hopefully she will be strong enough to help with poison immunes in Hell as she does in NM. With all the plus skills, he elemental MA attacks are quite strong, and she tends to use them more often than traps.
I mentioned I have no points in MB. This is partially because I'm pretty much always using CoS as soon as I see monsters. So if I cast CoS and then MB, I will have a bunch of blind converts. I know this, because my SM often casts MB. Frankly, I don't FEEL the conversion would be useful, even if done before the CoS or if CoS was not used at all, because CoS is so useful. My opinion on this may change once I hit Hell.

I don't have any real problems hitting monsters once CoS is cast, but i still stock up on AR items for monsters where CoS does not work i.e. act bosses(for a while I was using my merc's hat instead of Nat's for this reason).

Overall, I'm fairly lucky in the equipment I've gotten, especially my claws. I'm sure without these items, this build would be a lot tougher to play.

Wishlist?
1. Poison facets for Nat's armor. And why not, right?
2. Shadow Dancer myrmidon greaves (+1-2 to Shadow Disciplines) much better than Nat's boots
will be a lot harder to get them to this character, since they're ladder-only, and this char isn't ladder anymore (i.e. have to mule them for the whole season if/when i'd get ahold of some)
3. Nat's claws for weapon switch. Would give a lot more +skills (i think?) for pre-buffing with the full set on.

Hopefully someone will still be reading this. :)

[lextalionis]

Well, after a lengthy absence, I'm back with another update on the progress of my character.

(GreenRanger, USWest SC LoD, was on first season ladder, now just normal LoD character.)

I'm kicking around in NM still.
My character is currently at about lvl75, so I just started using Nat's armor.

I can't get into a lot of specifics because I don't have the actual info handy.


Equip:
Nat's Helm
Nat's boots
Nat's Armor
Ichorsting socketed with Nef(yup, still using it)
Trang-oul gloves
Rings 2x +100~ to AttackRating
+1 Shadow Ammy (no other mods)

Weapon switch:
2x +2 Asn skill claws

Merc: (Act1 Cold)
Rare Helm with "Visionary" mod (+1% AttackRating per Clvl)
...can't remember what else off hand

Stats:
um....
STR and DEX are enough for equipment (a lot of STR for Nat's armor)
rest in VIT
no NRG

Skills:
20 BoS
20 CoS
20 Venom
15~ Shadow Master
0 Mind Blast


Comments:

I love this char! Sooo much fun. I can solo most of NM, my only real trouble spot is Lister's pack in Baal's throne room. Also, the mage-type Oblivion Knights in Act4 can still cast spells when blinded by CoS, which can be annoying. Champion packs are not much of a problem; they don't ger blinded, but their usually melee monsters that I/my merc/SM can take out fairly easily.
I CANNOT thank my friends enough for the equipment they've given me (all my Nat's and trang gloves)

I use me weaponswitch to pre-buff BoS, Venom, and SM.
On rare occassions, i do use it for CoS (a whopping -93% to enemy defense!) but the duration is quite a bit lengthier. Without the additional +4 from my claws, it's only about -83% defense, but the duration is a lot more manageable.

Shadow Master is great! Hopefully she will be strong enough to help with poison immunes in Hell as she does in NM. With all the plus skills, he elemental MA attacks are quite strong, and she tends to use them more often than traps.
I mentioned I have no points in MB. This is partially because I'm pretty much always using CoS as soon as I see monsters. So if I cast CoS and then MB, I will have a bunch of blind converts. I know this, because my SM often casts MB. Frankly, I don't FEEL the conversion would be useful, even if done before the CoS or if CoS was not used at all, because CoS is so useful. My opinion on this may change once I hit Hell.

I don't have any real problems hitting monsters once CoS is cast, but i still stock up on AR items for monsters where CoS does not work i.e. act bosses(for a while I was using my merc's hat instead of Nat's for this reason).

Overall, I'm fairly lucky in the equipment I've gotten, especially my claws. I'm sure without these items, this build would be a lot tougher to play.

Wishlist?
1. Poison facets for Nat's armor. And why not, right?
2. Shadow Dancer myrmidon greaves (+1-2 to Shadow Disciplines) much better than Nat's boots
will be a lot harder to get them to this character, since they're ladder-only, and this char isn't ladder anymore (i.e. have to mule them for the whole season if/when i'd get ahold of some)
3. Nat's claws for weapon switch. Would give a lot more +skills (i think?) for pre-buffing with the full set on.

Hopefully someone will still be reading this. :)


??? why not use +3 Shadow Skill claws, all of your skills are shadow skills and you can get more +skills by getting bonuses only to that tree. Even if you add the skills up and its better to get Nats set, you should still equip a +3 Shadow Claw on the other hand. These can be shopped at Anya very easilly.

Your CoS, seems a bit high for me, since your duration is really high at that point, but since it probably takes you awhile to kill things this may not be much of a problem.

Check and see if you actuallly are getting a bonus from 20 pts in BoS. Fade might also be a good option for you as well.

Free points...what do you do with them? Traps, not awful. Kicks, ok too. You might even want to use your weapons switch for some claw action.

[mrp935]

??? why not use +3 Shadow Skill claws, all of your skills are shadow skills and you can get more +skills by getting bonuses only to that tree. Even if you add the skills up and its better to get Nats set, you should still equip a +3 Shadow Claw on the other hand. These can be shopped at Anya very easilly.

Well, I haven't _found_ any +3 Shadow claws.
Otherwise, yes, I'd of course use them.
Thanks for the tip! I'll check with Anya next time I get a chance to play.

Check and see if you actuallly are getting a bonus from 20 pts in BoS. Fade might also be a good option for you as well.

This is true. I'd have a hard time switching out items for IAS slots though, so.... I dunno.
Need to do some reseach on breakpoints and hunt for alternative weapons (likely the only viable one would be Demon Machine)
As a PvM using lots of CoS, I don't really get attacked much, so I'm thinking I could maybe do without BoS OR Fade. This would free up some points for making a decent two-trap synergy. Maybe a kick and/or Blade Shield to get the most bang out of my Venom.

I find BoS + CoS can be handy if you just want to run through and area, or if your in some sort of serious danger. I predict I'll be using this tactic a lot more often in hell.


I like that I can go into 8 player NM WSK and kill monsters effectively without being in really any danger of dying. Granted, I kill a lot slower than anyone else, so everyone else will get to Baal a lot faster than me running.

[Wingspan]

I don't know how anyone can say that Bowsin (thats the word I'm using for this thread) can suck in NM. I had (keyword HAD) a Hardcore Ladder Bowsin on USEast at clvl 75 who destroyed everything up until she was TPPKed by some lamer (lamer = APA_IceNiglet).

So basically my strat was like this:

-Rare Circlet with resists and r/w and other mods
-Rare Ammy with resists and life and whatnot
-30% Vipermagi
-Kuko Shakaku socketed w/Nef
-Razortail
-Lava Gouts
-Rare Excep Boots with res, mf, r/w
-Rare rings with AR and stuff

Skills:
-10 BoS (with +3 claws on switch this was more than enough)
-20 Venom
-20 Shadow Master
-1 Cloak of Shadows
-1 Mind Blast

And I was also finishing up:
-20 Dragon Talon
-20 Dragon Flight

My Merc was Act 1 Cold with:
-Kuko socketed w/Shael
-Spirit Forge w/2 perf Topaz
-Undead Crown cuz I was poor, but hey it works

Ok, so basically my game plan was rely on explosive dmg + pierce to pwn monsters. This actually worked much better than I thought it would. I could totally destroy nightmare anywhere like this, and if you need somewhere to level it's called Arcane Sanctuary, cuz explosions + pierce + nice, neat rows = ownage.

With the exception of Hammerdins and Sorcs I was doing all the work on Baal runs. Well placed Kuko shots just tear things apart. Oh, I forgot to mention, Lava Gouts are godly for three reasons:

(Why Lava Gouts own):
1. Fire damage + Enchant Fire dmg goes to exploding radius. Nice.
2. 20% IAS + BoS > lvl 10 = Max framerate for Kuko. Double Check.
3. Enchant gives a very nice AR bonus. VEYR NICE. I'd reccomend Demon limb except then you can't have dual shadow claws on switch unless you really wanna carry some demon's rotting arm around with you everywhere.

My merc was very useful. She would alternate between Cold Arrow and dropping Kuko-bombs with the added damage from Spirit Forge. I used to have RattleCage on her, which got annoying, but it could be useful in Hell when her dmg doesnt matter as much as crowd control and crushing blow. In fact, I would say Rattlecage was better, since it helped so much vs Act Bosses. I tried Witchwild String on her also, but I liked seeing things blow up. If you want her to deal with fire/phys immunes then maybe WWS on a Cold Act1 is best.

I did not find any need for an Act 2 merc. Act 1 mercs stay alive pretty easily by themselves, and if you use Mind Blast liberally she really can't die. Plus I found that while leveling, it is easy to have a bow-wielding comrade, since you can always just give her your second best weapon to use.

Did I rely on kicks? Nah, not really. Honestly I used kicks to leech and finish off stragglers or vs fire immune single targets. I really insist tho on maxing Dragon Flight, since it is VERY useful to teleport to a monster but not so much so when it stays alive and you have no shield and subpar resists. Plus, what else would you spend points on? I suppose traps are OK, but I really wanted to do more of a pure archer-focused build. And it paid off. Until APA_IceNiglet killed me like a chump with his stupid TPPK script.

Even into Act 1 Hell, where I thought I would have huge problems due to a lot of Fire Immunes, Iw as doing pretty well, and just switch over to WWS instead of Kuko. Razortail still kicked in sometimes and that helped. I guess having a Widowmaker would have been nice, but also they were not really all over the palce at the beginning of season 2. I have a Hellrack lined up to use (double Hel'd so it req'd 90ish str instead of 163), but geuss what? APA_IceNiglet killed me right before I got to lvl 76.

OK My point in all of this is that I found the whole kuko thing to be very fun and effective through nightmare and parts of early Hell, and where it wasn't, WWS did the job. Lava gouts are awesome, it takes a huge load off ot not worry so much about AR. And my base AR wasn't even great but would be like 2.5k or so after Enchant hit in, which happens quite often when you use Kuko + razortail, since every hit gives a chance to cast. I really recommend an Act 1 Cold merc, since she never dies, is pretty smart, lowers enemy defense for you, and can always have a good wpn thanks to you. Shadow master is important, and so is ONE point EACH in CoS and MB. I would throw extra points into Mind Blast and blade traps.

[mrp935]

Well! I'm glad to see I'm no the only one who enjoys this character as much as I do. very interesting, some very good insights.

Just a quick update on my merc's equipment.
I was online so I got to check on my char's

She's about lvl 56 I believe

Helm: Rare Bone Helm with "visionary" mod (as I said before)
Armor: Boneflesh unique Platemail (5% Life Stolen Per Hit, 25% Chance Of Open Wounds, +35 To Attack Rating)
Bow: Rare Long Bow with +7~ Dext, ~1-28 cold damage, some AR, etc.


But!
Through the unending generousity of my friends, I was able to secure for her a....

Skystrike
Unique Edge Bow
+150-200% Enhanced Damage (varies)
Adds 1-250 Lightning Damage
2% Chance To Cast Level 6 Meteor On Striking
30% Increased Attack Rate
+100 To Attack Rating
+1 To Amazon Skill Levels
+10 to Energy

I didn't have a chance to try her out, as we were just working on new chars, but I like the look of this bow! It effectively gives my merc every form of elemental damage, and the other mods are awesome, too. Add that to my Venom, as well as my Shadow's various skills, and I don't think we'll have too much trouble with immunes (hopefully.)
Definitely a Merc-only weapon, I think; the only wasted mod is the +10Energy



Wingspan:
So Venom damage IS added to the Explosive Arrow blast radius?
if so, awesome. I'll have to try and secure some more kukos. right now I've only got one, and it's sorta reserved for my bowsorc (which I like to call the Archmage/Archimage/Archimagus. but me naming character builds only starts arguments so whatever :-P )

Thanks for the continuing interest, guys.

[SelfBaisResistor]

If this now wasn't a NL character anymore and you wanted that Ranger feel, you could use a Hand of Justice Bow:

Hand of Justice:

4 Socket Weapons
Sur + Cham + Amn + Lo
100% Chance To Cast Level 36 Blaze When You Level-Up
100% Chance To Cast Level 48 Meteor When You Die
Level 16 Holy Fire Aura When Equipped
+33% Increased Attack Speed
+280-330% Enhanced Damage
Ignore Target's Defense
7% Life Stolen Per Hit
-20% To Enemy Fire Resistance
20% Deadly Strike
Hit Blinds Target
Freezes Target +3

The best part of this is the ITD and you get the Holy Fire Aura permanently which adds a bit of fire damage. The major downside though is that it is terriblely expensive for a not so uber runeword.

[mrp935]

If this now wasn't a NL character anymore and you wanted that Ranger feel, you could use a Hand of Justice Bow

Yes, Hand of Justice does have some awesome mods.
My two biggest qualms with it are these:

1) As you say, yes, it is DAMN expensive. I never plan on being someone to play this game enough to find those kind of runes at any sort of consistent rate. or find tons of decent 4-socket bows for that matter.
2) It only works in weapons. This means u can't use a Kuko or some other Explosive Arrow bow to get the most out of your splash fire damage.

Imagine, for a second, HoJ was an Armor runeword:

Now imagine this build:

Paladin
Nightwing's veil helm
Kuko bow, or Wizendraw depending
Lavagout gloves or demon limb on switch
various other assorted Ranger gear
HoJ armor

20 holy freeze
20 resist fire
20 resist cold
20 salvation

Fire/Cold. This would be my "effing" DREAM Ranger, man.


On another note. On a whim, I went back and read Flux' Decahedron, specifically, the best and worst uniques in the game.

One that caught my eye was the worst helm

Duskdeep Helm
+ (2 Per Character Level) 2-198 Defense (Based On Character Level)
6% Chance To Cast Level 3 Dim Vision When Struck
Level 5 Cloak of Shadows (30 Charges)
Cannot Be Frozen
Fire Resist +20-40% (varies)
5% Mana Stolen Per Hit
-4 To Light Radius

Granted, the article was written in 1.09, where CoS was much less useful. Now that I'm practically in love with this skill, I can't help but want to find one of these hats and try it out with some other-class ranger.

Lately I've been considering making a Shock ranger, and it seems like the perfect character to test it out on. A Frost ranger has the advantage of slowed enemies, but a Shocker doesn't, so CoS charges might be a good alternative for this character.

I forget which forum it was on, but there was a thread talking about your ideal archer. The limitations were u had to take 1 skill from each class and each slvl.
I only saw one person out of about the first dozen list CoS.
Needless to say I was a little disappointed.

[Naliworld]

Venom definitely doesn't transfer to Explosive Arrow explosions. Only Fire damage on equipment does(or Enchant), maybe Physical damage as well...

[Wingspan]

No, Venom does NOT transfer to explosion radius, only FIRE dmg transfers, your phys dmg does not transfer to radius.

However, Venom was still very useful and where esle would you spend the points? Venom + 83% pierce = good. It really helps vs fire immunes also.

[mrp935]

However, Venom was still very useful and where esle would you spend the points? Venom + 83% pierce = good. It really helps vs fire immunes also.

Yes, Venom is great, but it still requires some form of AR/-EnemyDef to hit, correct?

Because while Explosive Arrows "Always hit," your Venom doesn't, necessarily, always hit.

That's all I'm getting at.

[Wingspan]

Yeah, vneo doens't always hit, but Lava gouts give a very substantial AR bonus (as would dmeon limb), plus CoS helps a little, plus there are always Eth runes and Anglic ruings and whatnot

[mrp935]

Latest update:

no big changes to equipment
I'm lovin' the skystrike bow on my Rogue. Awesome stuff.
With CoS cast, enemies hardly move, so when Meteor is set off, it'll still hit something. Also, due to the relative slow killing speed of this build (compared with your average godly cookie-cutter) the meteor actually triggers fairly frequently, since the Rogue does a lot of shooting.

currently level 76
2 more levels until maxed Shadow Master

merc is currently level ~66
not getting really great XP, so I'm probably gonna make the leap into Hell difficulty soon (as suggested by the leveling-up guide, based on her level)

Wish me luck!

[jordy666]

good luck.

[mrp935]

Hell Act1 so far is no problem.

After only doing Quests 1 & 2 my merc jumped from level 66 to 73!
Good stuff.

My inventory is full of charms (has been for a long time, but I suppose I should detail them now);
1x 1-10 Lightning Damage SC
1x Cold Damage LC with some AR and some other mod...
the rest are GCs with AR/damage/dex and some STR to help wear my Nat's armor
I would have shadow GCs but, alas, too poor.

I've maxed SM and put one point into Mind Blast. Unfortunately I don't see much use for it, since at any given time I can either shoot or cast, and I perfer to shoot. That being said, I find my SM using this skill even more since adding the one point. A useful skill for my shadow, but not my Assassin, I find.



Some problems/hangups:

A) MERC WEAPON
I'm a little hung up on what bow to assign to her, as I've recently got some fairly decent options on hand:

1) Skystrike (currently using this for Lightning/Meteor, +1 Amazon Skills)
2) Riphook (Slows Target 30%, 30% Open Wounds, good speed, LL)
would make a good compliment to her Boneflesh armor (5% LL, 25% Open Wounds)
3) Magewrath (best physical damage, good AR bonus, +1 Amazon Skills, some MDR, but annoying "Hit Blinds Target" that overwrites CoS is a big, BIG downside)


B) DAMAGE/MAIN WEAPON
I'm finding though that I keep running low on bolts, since Venom just doesn't add that much damage. Oftentimes I'm just standing around with no ammo letting my merc and my SM clean up. I'm thinking of switching to a bow, once I can find one with comparable mods to my Ichorsting (pierce, knockback, etc.) since it holds more ammo. Or maybe just go with a Wizendraw (I have 2 of these lying around) to negate the need for ammo altogether?


C) WEAPON SWITCH
My arms dealer has recently come into the ownership of a Demon Limb.
While this would be especially great for helping me take out Poison Immunes, I know I'd basically enchant myself, my merc and maybe my shadow, then put it in the cube and put my claws back on weapon switch.

This, however, could be tricky and/or annoying and time consuming, especially with a full inventory.

And I'd basically be _required_ to switch to a Kuko for my main weapon, which is not exactly a curse. :-P


Secondly, I have concerns about which claws to use.
some have suggested I try and acquire:
1x Nat's (for the "+3 all" full set bonus)
1x +3 Shadow Disciplines rare

as opposed to my current:
2x +2 Assassin Skills rares

My worry is that the damage of my SM's traps/MA attacks will suffer if I go all out into +ShadowDisc. equipment. This is a major concern for me, as I rely heavily on my SM to kill (especially Poison immunes.)
Can anyone give some numbers/advice on this?
Similarly, should I look for a +3 SD or +2 ASN amulet? (currently only have +1 Shadow amulet)

From the Assassin FAQ:
"Shadows' skills are 1/2(your Assassin's level in that skill including +skills) rounded down PLUS 1/3(level of shadow at time of casting including +skills)"

So with a slvl20 SM and slvl0 trap/MA, will +SD skills or +ASN skills yield more damage?


Is there anyone else out there trying this build?
Let's hear some other peoples' experiences.

[royalesse]

Some problems/hangups:

A) MERC WEAPON

Personally I like the look of Riphook... Open wounds is extremely beneficial to Venom since it's counted as - regen on the target. You should notice venom being a lot more effective.

B) DAMAGE/MAIN WEAPON

I usually walk around with 2~3 quivers of arrows/bolts. I always pick them up when they drop. I'd rather drop quivers to pick stuff up rather than run out ammo. FYI... I'd stick with using pierce. Although... Pus Spitter's CTC Lower Resists looks tempting. There's quite a few good throwing weapons as well if you don't mind putting down the bow/xbow.
Edit: If you refuse to carry more quivers then you could always put 1 pt in Blade Fury.
Edit2: Along the same lines if you want to use Pus Spitter you can alternate between shooting the xbow & BSentinel. Also, if you're in a pinch and just have to have the LR you can BF until it activates.
C) WEAPON SWITCH

Demon limb without fire mastery won't add that much damage. It probably won't be as useful as you think. Now the AR would be bad a$$ but the damage not so much. Try it out and judge for yourself.

Secondly, I have concerns about which claws to use.
some have suggested I try and acquire:
1x Nat's (for the "+3 all" full set bonus)
1x +3 Shadow Disciplines rare

I'd look for the elusive +3 venom + 3 shadow skills... the saying goes if you're in it get all the way in it... if you're not in it then get out. I've heard that NM Anya is the best place to shop. Hell Anya gives too many 'other' options.
From the Assassin FAQ:
"Shadows' skills are 1/2(your Assassin's level in that skill including +skills) rounded down PLUS 1/3(level of shadow at time of casting including +skills)"

So with a slvl20 SM and slvl0 trap/MA, will +SD skills or +ASN skills yield more damage?
Was that statement about Shadows in general or about the shadow warrior? AFAIK the Shadow Master automatically gets all the skills probably at 1/3 of the shadow master skill at the time of casting. Then once the Shadow master uses one skill and then uses another skill that synergizes then the skills gain the benefit of the synergies. So the longer you have a Shadow Master the higher the likelihood of it being synergized.

For you control freaks that is why some people prefer the shadow warrior over the shadow master. Since, you could purposefully synergize and get a bad arse fireblast on your shadow. If that's the case then you'd probably want to get a +3 SM +3 SD claw... but again...

If you're in it get all the way in it... if you're not in it then get out... You should be killing more with your venom or you should be maximizing your shadow: Pick a build and commit. Also, Blizzard has a habit of having damage ramp up faster once you get over the 20's ~ 30's in skill points.

Is there anyone else out there trying this build?
Let's hear some other peoples' experiences.
Here's the kicker... I'm talking out of my buttocks :lol: I don't have an BowSin and I'll admit it... and still Blizz has been pretty consistent with how they do things.

P.S. Witchy & Gut Siphon look good for this build. Gut Siphon especially...

[mrp935]

I usually walk around with 2~3 quivers of arrows/bolts. I always pick them up when they drop. I'd rather drop quivers to pick stuff up rather than run out ammo. FYI... I'd stick with using pierce. Although... Pus Spitter's CTC Lower Resists looks tempting. There's quite a few good throwing weapons as well if you don't mind putting down the bow/xbow.
As i said, my inventory is full of charms, so quivers usually go in the cube, where they're not-so-easily movable.
Lower Resist on Pus spitter is tempting, but the weapon seems pretty much useless otherwise, especially since Venom would nerf the poison damage.

Demon limb without fire mastery won't add that much damage. It probably won't be as useful as you think. Now the AR would be bad a$$ but the damage not so much. Try it out and judge for yourself.
From what Wingspan has said in this thread, Enchant with a Kuko is apparently quite godly, and the AR bonus nearly negates the need for a higher CoS.

For you control freaks that is why some people prefer the shadow warrior over the shadow master. Since, you could purposefully synergize and get a bad arse fireblast on your shadow. If that's the case then you'd probably want to get a +3 SM +3 SD claw... but again...
Basically, my SM is my only way to kill Poison immunes. A SW with only the skills I have simply can't do that. Unless I were to invest points into skills I'm not even going to use, which sorta doesn't fly with me.

If you're in it get all the way in it... if you're not in it then get out... You should be killing more with your venom or you should be maximizing your shadow: Pick a build and commit.
This is a good point, but it's kinda hard to decide. It seems with the gear I have now (not really favouring one over the other) my SM kills more efficiently than I do. So if I focus on venom, my killing might increase slightly, whereas my SM would stay about the same. But if I go all out into the SM, she'll kill INSANELY awesome and I'll... stand around looking pretty. As it were.

Tough call.

[royalesse]

This is a good point, but it's kinda hard to decide. It seems with the gear I have now (not really favouring one over the other) my SM kills more efficiently than I do. So if I focus on venom, my killing might increase slightly, whereas my SM would stay about the same. But if I go all out into the SM, she'll kill INSANELY awesome and I'll... stand around looking pretty. As it were.

Tough call.
Hmmm... why don't you keep this one with Venom in mind and see if you can specially design a char to max the shadow master? I've seen it done for the shadow warrior. It should be pretty entertaining to do with the shadow master.

If you search the Amazon forum for Blondiezon then you'll find a guy who did it for Valk. Could give you ideas for the SM.

If you don't mind supplementing with blade skills I think that Pus spitter would be the way to go if you want to go straight Venom. Should be pretty cheap to get and test.

Personal preference: If you want her to look pretty I've always preferred the Breast plate on the assasin. :drool:

[mrp935]

I've been thinking about writing up a guide for this sort of build.

I think i'll need some help in writing and compiling it.
Anyone still interested in this build?

[royalesse]

I'm still curious...

I'm so curious that I'm still wondering if you went straight SM or Venom? After posting I started to dig to try and figure out what would be the best build to max the SM.

Then I came to the same conclusion that you probably did and that Venom should probably be maxed as well as many passive skills as possible. Then one in almost every trap and martial art (so the SM can benefit from your +skills). Shadow skills as needed but you basically get all of them as prereqs for venom & SM... the one point in MB is a one point wonder so you'll probably need to do that as well.

The only questionable skills are the finishers in the Martial Arts Tree and the Blade skills in the trap tree since they don't synergize and don't scale in damage to warrant a max investment.

The problem is if you want to max claw mastery it will be hard to find equipment to get the most +skill benefit along with the max claw mastery benefit. I'd be inclined to max claw mastery since it is always on with the SM and it would get added to the massive stat bonuses that Shadows get (+450% at lvl 30 Shadow compiled from Dracoy & Arreat).

At any rate you could go Blade Sentinel to take advantage of it or you can just max it last and stick with the bow.

As you can tell I am eager to hear about your experience rather than theorizing and building mockups on SP (don't have time to ladder as much as I would like :()

Write it up and post it... it should be quite interesting. Instead of having a bunch of little tanks like the Necro you have one big Uber Tank to walk around with... it should be interesting.

Edit: Eureka... if you build up death sentry you can CE for your shadow which should be nice.

[lextalionis]

The only questionable skills are the finishers in the Martial Arts Tree and the Blade skills in the trap tree since they don't synergize and don't scale in damage to warrant a max investment.


Well you might want the finishers anyway for two more reasons. First off the SM will get somewhat higher level to her finishers, because of your points in them. Second, you may sometimes want to use some of the skills and you should have the skill points to spare. DFlight is very good for getting to the right position on more than some occassions. DTalon and DTail both have some knockback which can be nice if you don't have Knockback on your bow or you get surrounded and want to DF out or DTail to knockback a bunch of them.

[royalesse]

Well you might want the finishers anyway for two more reasons. First off the SM will get somewhat higher level to her finishers, because of your points in them. Second, you may sometimes want to use some of the skills and you should have the skill points to spare. DFlight is very good for getting to the right position on more than some occassions. DTalon and DTail both have some knockback which can be nice if you don't have Knockback on your bow or you get surrounded and want to DF out or DTail to knockback a bunch of them.
IIRC the SM will get an extra 10 skill points to her finisher if you have one in yours and you get max skill equip.

On SP the SM seems to release her charges more. One thing that I noticed in play style is that if you go and try and maximize the SM damage then you really need to play somewhat like a Necro.

I tried going through and shooting arrows and it wasn't near as effective as casting CoS & mindblasting to help the Brunette golem and casting DS to get CE (fortunately, it was tons more entertaining than shooting over and over again).

[BIGeyedBUG]

The SM uses the same formula as the SW for skill usage: 1/3 of SM level + 1/2 of Skill level. I really doubt she uses Claw Mastery at all.

I think relying on an SM is a really tough way to deal with immunities. Good luck.

Just for reference, the "standard" Bowassin goes something like this:

20 Venom, Shadow Warrior, Death Sentry
1+ CoS, Mind Blast
BoS or Fade to taste
1 in all prereqs

Variations:

20 pt Mind Blast for long duration stun
20 pt CoS for -def. The timer wouldn't be so bad since the SW can overlap it.
20 pt. BoI purely for the SW

[BiltartThe Clorn]

Why would you even bother with a bow when you have blade fury?You will never get close to the speed of it with any bow.Many, many more choices of equipment too.BF is probably why you never see snipers anymore.

[lextalionis]

Why would you even bother with a bow when you have blade fury?You will never get close to the speed of it with any bow.Many, many more choices of equipment too.BF is probably why you never see snipers anymore.

The only answers are style and pierce. But as for being effective, you are very right BF is much better than any bow setup can be.